Breaking the Ice - Ice Climbers DLC Discussion Thread - Under New Ownership!

[pupNapoleon]

I said it prior to release and around release, but why the hell couldn't the Ice Climbers be the one exception if they were practically done? What is so wrong with one single Wii U exclusive character?

It changes the entire meta game. The balance is completely thrown off from the roster.

Maybe because it's DK........

(that was the joke, I was trying to imply Pikachu is the fourth mascot of 64 and deserves it).

 

[ROBnWatch]

4. Why would Smashpedia list them as miscellaneous? They have a base series unlike characters like R.O.B. who debuted as an accessory and has no base series.

-__-

The Gyromite and Stack Up games came with R.O.B., and together were known as the "Robot series".

Lol, I love defending my characters! But seriously, that is the truth.

Also, your puns were pretty daggum funny.

 

[lightdasher]

It changes the entire meta game. The balance is completely thrown off from the roster.

In what way?

 

[pupNapoleon]

In what way?

Because all characters are balanced against all characters. To properly do so without them would require;

1- Not balancing the Ice Climbers in either version.
.... which is illogical fully. Of course if they are in the roster, they need to be balanced.

2- Balancing the character the same in both versions.
Certain characters have fewer weaknesses and strengths in one version (balanced with ICs but without them as playable options). For best comparison, imagine if one single Pokemon type were removed. The balance of power would be thrown off for all types, because some would then be better in more matchups, and some would be worse in each match up. Overall, it would dictate tiers as a necessity without possibility of them going away.

3- Each game to be balanced separately,
which means the games would play completely differently. This is the only actual option.

 

[JaylonSonicSpeed]

(that was the joke, I was trying to imply Pikachu is the fourth mascot of 64 and deserves it).

The joke went right over my head. Sorry meh stupid

 

[UberPyro64]

Pretty sure this is a mockup someone on GameFAQs made but it's neat none of the less.

 

[Marigi174]

Pretty sure this is a mockup someone on GameFAQs made but it's neat none of the less.

I'd laugh so hard out of joy and 'funniness' if this turned out to be an actual leak as opposed to the more likely scenario (a mock-up) XD

 

[ROBnWatch]

Pretty sure this is a mockup someone on GameFAQs made but it's neat none of the less.

So...one of their Brawl victory animations is gone. Those animations were good!!!

Other than that this is funny (made even more funny by the fact that the creator had Pichu return) and cool.

 

[lightdasher]

Because all characters are balanced against all characters. To properly do so without them would require;

1- Not balancing the Ice Climbers in either version.
.... which is illogical fully. Of course if they are in the roster, they need to be balanced.

2- Balancing the character the same in both versions.
Certain characters have fewer weaknesses and strengths in one version (balanced with ICs but without them as playable options). For best comparison, imagine if one single Pokemon type were removed. The balance of power would be thrown off for all types, because some would then be better in more matchups, and some would be worse in each match up. Overall, it would dictate tiers as a necessity without possibility of them going away.

3- Each game to be balanced separately,
which means the games would play completely differently. This is the only actual option.

I don't think that's how it works at all, are you saying my 3DS is balanced differently from my wii u one because my 3ds version only has mewtwo?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

It changes the entire meta game. The balance is completely thrown off from the roster.

I don't really see how that completely throws off the balance of the meta game. Any new character is going to do that, including all the DLC choices. I understand the DLC choices are developed with balance for both games in mind, but there are have to be workarounds to balance the characters in just one version. If the Ice Climbers are thrown into the Wii U version, balance them around the existing roster then. Or if Ice Climbers are put into the Wii U and other characters are balanced around them, why not just let those changes take place in the 3DS version with a character missing as well?

Sure some meta game might change, but it changes anyway when patches are implemented. Plus the concept that Smash could ever be perfectly balanced is a ludicrous idea in the first place. Smash is always going to have characters of different tiers and some match-ups aren't going to be fair, and never will be. Throwing Ice Climbers into the mix won't just completely screw everything in the game up. And isn't the majority of competitive going to played on Wii U anyway, so isn't balance arguably more important there then on the 3DS version?

And I'm not disrespecting 3DS players, just saying that to my knowledge, the 3DS is the more casual of the two platforms just by virtue of a smaller screen, more limited inputs, and the fact so many players like me much prefer the Gamecube controller option. Plus if the 3DS screwed the Ice Climbers in the first place, isn't a little delightfully poetic the Ice Climbers would come back to screw the 3DS?

 

[TheBeardedPunisher]

-__-

The Gyromite and Stack Up games came with R.O.B., and together were known as the "Robot series".

Lol, I love defending my characters! But seriously, that is the truth.

Also, your puns were pretty daggum funny.

I knew you'd call me out on that. I forgot the series came with its own name. But yeah, a series should only be labeled as miscellaneous if there was never a character from that series playable. Even if that series is currently stripped of its representation.

Pretty sure this is a mockup someone on GameFAQs made but it's neat none of the less.

WANT

I don't think that's how it works at all, are you saying my 3DS is balanced differently from my wii u one because my 3ds version only has mewtwo?

I used to wonder if different rosters could affect the balance. But now that DLC characters aren't required to be downloaded onto both versions, that should make things more flexible where updates affect just the characters in the game you have regardless of which ones you're missing. In fact, I looked around tumblr a while ago and found one of your posts and you said that Sakurai once stated that he realized people wouldn't have identical rosters on both versions anymore depending on how they download DLC. So if not everyone has the same rosters one both versions or only has certain characters, Ice Climbers would be no exception since they would be optional DLC and it would help their Wii U exclusivity if they had to resort to that.

 

[ROBnWatch]

I knew you'd call me out on that. I forgot the series came with its own name. But yeah, a series should only be labeled as miscellaneous if there was never a character from that series playable. Even if that series is currently stripped of its representation.

Just defending my characters. Gotta get everything straight.

Plus if the 3DS screwed the Ice Climbers in the first place, isn't a little delightfully poetic the Ice Climbers would come back to screw the 3DS?

Yes. This needs to happen. Screw the 3DS!!!

 

[Flor@]

So, Snake is now ahead of the Ice Climbers in want by less than 1%. I knew I should have gone 70 in want instead of 80, but I went 80 for a family member. I like to think I'm a nice person for that.

Anyways, I got a fortune from a fortune cookie that reads: "Infinite patience produces immediate results." Does... that mean what I think it means?
Ice Climbers confirmed perhaps?

funny enough, I got a fortune cookie at also said something quite similar. Wasn't sure if it was referring to the ICs or my illustration career. xD

 

[ROBnWatch]

funny enough, I got a fortune cookie at also said something quite similar. Wasn't sure if it was referring to the ICs or my illustration career. xD

I mean, either way, it works out for you.

 

[MoveMan1]

Yes. This needs to happen. Screw the 3DS!!!

As a guy who only has a 3ds, screw you, pal.

 

[ROBnWatch]

As a guy who only has a 3ds, screw you, pal.

-__-

Ya know what? I'm not even going to bother with a reply.

Let's all just chill and go back to the Ice Climbers.

 

[Flor@]

Ice me! (baby?)

 

[Marigi174]

[dum dum dum dududum dum]
Ice Ice Baby
[dum dum dum dum dududum dum]
Ice Ice Baby

etcetera etcetera etcetera

 

[PlayfulMushroom]

So...one of their Brawl victory animations is gone. Those animations were good!!!

Other than that this is funny (made even more funny by the fact that the creator had Pichu return) and cool.

Please, let this one be real Probably not, but still..

 

[RodNutTakin]

Pretty sure this is a mockup someone on GameFAQs made but it's neat none of the less.

DON'T PLAY WITH MY FEELINGS

 

[pupNapoleon]

I don't really see how that completely throws off the balance of the meta game. Any new character is going to do that, including all the DLC choices. I understand the DLC choices are developed with balance for both games in mind, but there are have to be workarounds to balance the characters in just one version. If the Ice Climbers are thrown into the Wii U version, balance them around the existing roster then. Or if Ice Climbers are put into the Wii U and other characters are balanced around them, why not just let those changes take place in the 3DS version with a character missing as well?

Sure some meta game might change, but it changes anyway when patches are implemented. Plus the concept that Smash could ever be perfectly balanced is a ludicrous idea in the first place. Smash is always going to have characters of different tiers and some match-ups aren't going to be fair, and never will be. Throwing Ice Climbers into the mix won't just completely screw everything in the game up. And isn't the majority of competitive going to played on Wii U anyway, so isn't balance arguably more important there then on the 3DS version?

I wonder if you read my post you quoted. Or maybe I was not clear enough. And I apologize that it sounds condescending to say such. I think my Pokemon comparison was the best way to compare it:
one game would be gen 5 (no fairy type) and one would be gen 6 (fairy type added). The value of each character, in the overall balance, is completely different.
Each character adds a new balance, yes, it does. Yet it is the same balance for both systems.
If one system had a character and the other didnt, the the meta game for each console would be different. The goal is, as far as I can tell, that the two versions play like one another. If your assertion is that they dont need to- then I dont think a single characters exclusion is really the most economically intelligent way to make the two versions different.

Your argument is that the meta game does not matter for the 3DS, essentially. This may be a valuable idea... I just dont think it will ever happen. It is telling pro players not to buy the game. It is single handedly closing off more ports to the game, than it is opening business opportunity.

And I'm not disrespecting 3DS players, just saying that to my knowledge, the 3DS is the more casual of the two platforms just by virtue of a smaller screen, more limited inputs, and the fact so many players like me much prefer the Gamecube controller option. Plus if the 3DS screwed the Ice Climbers in the first place, isn't a little delightfully poetic the Ice Climbers would come back to screw the 3DS?

Poetic, sure; I don't think that vengeance against ones home console is a particularly strong monetary strategy.

I knew you'd call me out on that. I forgot the series came with its own name. But yeah, a series should only be labeled as miscellaneous if there was never a character from that series playable. Even if that series is currently stripped of its representation.

WANT

I used to wonder if different rosters could affect the balance. But now that DLC characters aren't required to be downloaded onto both versions, that should make things more flexible where updates affect just the characters in the game you have regardless of which ones you're missing. In fact, I looked around tumblr a while ago and found one of your posts and you said that Sakurai once stated that he realized people wouldn't have identical rosters on both versions anymore depending on how they download DLC. So if not everyone has the same rosters one both versions or only has certain characters, Ice Climbers would be no exception since they would be optional DLC and it would help their Wii U exclusivity if they had to resort to that.

There is a big difference between a player not having a character, and the game not being balanced for the character. Regardless of if I have Mewtwo downloaded, my game is balanced for it. I just dont have the content.

 

[FancySmash]

It's odd, but when I see people say "Ice Climbers have no chance of being in the game" I don't know if that means they don't want them in the game or not. Part of me likes to believe they'd like to see them in the game, but they've just lost hope.

Not a great outlook, but it's the best I can think of...

 

[Flor@]

I wonder if you read my post you quoted. Or maybe I was not clear enough. And I apologize that it sounds condescending to say such. I think my Pokemon comparison was the best way to compare it:
one game would be gen 5 (no fairy type) and one would be gen 6 (fairy type added). The value of each character, in the overall balance, is completely different.
Each character adds a new balance, yes, it does. Yet it is the same balance for both systems.
If one system had a character and the other didnt, the the meta game for each console would be different. The goal is, as far as I can tell, that the two versions play like one another. If your assertion is that they dont need to- then I dont think a single characters exclusion is really the most economically intelligent way to make the two versions different.

Your argument is that the meta game does not matter for the 3DS, essentially. This may be a valuable idea... I just dont think it will ever happen. It is telling pro players not to buy the game. It is single handedly closing off more ports to the game, than it is opening business opportunity.



Poetic, sure; I don't think that vengeance against ones home console is a particularly strong monetary strategy.


There is a big difference between a player not having a character, and the game not being balanced for the character. Regardless of if I have Mewtwo downloaded, my game is balanced for it. I just dont have the content.

Regarding what you said about Mewtwo, could it not almost be the same thing when it comes to the 3DS, if the ICs were to be a Wii U exclusive? For example, if you don't have Mewtwo, that's fine, the game is still balanced, it works. The characters are (ideally) all balanced around each other, and the lack of you having Mewtwo for yourself does not mean much in terms of balance for the characters you already do have. So if you match 3DS balance with Wii U balance, and simply add a character to the Wii U (not saying this is necessarily something we want, though), could not it be quite a similar experience as not having downloaded a DLC character? I mean, for the most part?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Pretty sure this is a mockup someone on GameFAQs made but it's neat none of the less.

Obvious fake is obvious. It's even sad that Etika is still promoting it just for more views.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Obvious fake is obvious. It's even sad that Etika is still promoting it just for more views.

Lol, he is? FAIL!

 

[PlayfulMushroom]

Obvious fake is obvious. It's even sad that Etika is still promoting it just for more views.

He is covering it because that's what his fans want to see. A lot of YouTubers don't realize that their fans want to see what they subscribed for, in Etika's case that would be Smash. Even though it's fake I find it interesting to hear his comments around it.

 

[ROBnWatch]

He is covering it because that's what his fans want to see. A lot of YouTubers don't realize that their fans want to see what they subscribed for, in Etika's case that would be Smash. Even though it's fake I find it interesting to hear his comments around it.

...I guess that's true.

I think it would be more believable if the creator had used someone else in the second place box...cause most Smash fans would agree that Pichu isn't coming back.

 

[MoveMan1]

...I guess that's true.

I think it would be more believable if the creator had used someone else in the second place box...cause most Smash fans would agree that Pichu isn't coming back.

It's the old "It's too good to be true, so I'll throw in something no one wants!"

 

[ROBnWatch]

It's the old "It's too good to be true, so I'll throw in something no one wants!"

Ah. Is that what it is now?

 

[UberPyro64]

It's odd, but when I see people say "Ice Climbers have no chance of being in the game" I don't know if that means they don't want them in the game or not. Part of me likes to believe they'd like to see them in the game, but they've just lost hope.

Not a great outlook, but it's the best I can think of...

That's pretty much me but I haven't lost complete hope. It might take a while but I think it might be possible but they probably would be one of the last DLC characters if they do manage to make them work. Or maybe I'm wrong and Sakurai got them to work and they'll come out in August with the Tournament Mode and the N64 Stages. That would be pretty darn cool.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Regarding what you said about Mewtwo, could it not almost be the same thing when it comes to the 3DS, if the ICs were to be a Wii U exclusive? For example, if you don't have Mewtwo, that's fine, the game is still balanced, it works. The characters are (ideally) all balanced around each other, and the lack of you having Mewtwo for yourself does not mean much in terms of balance for the characters you already do have. So if you match 3DS balance with Wii U balance, and simply add a character to the Wii U (not saying this is necessarily something we want, though), could not it be quite a similar experience as not having downloaded a DLC character? I mean, for the most part?

I went over this as well as I could earlier on; there is a three pronged attempt at balancing the games with the ICs as an exclusive. If the ICs are balanced into the game, but missing, it leaves the meta game for that version unbalanced, permanently.

Nintendo may not care about the 3DS metagame, but it does not portray a level of equality.

 

[JaylonSonicSpeed]

Lol this was an actual argument me and my friend had about ICs. He hates them, I don't know why we're still friends.

 

[Marigi174]

Lol this was an actual argument me and my friend had about ICs. He hates them, I don't know why we're still friends. View attachment 60193View attachment 60194View attachment 60195

It didn't sell medeocrely. In fact, it had huge sales in Europe.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

Lol this was an actual argument me and my friend had about ICs. He hates them, I don't know why we're still friends. View attachment 60193View attachment 60194View attachment 60195

Well, if your still friends with someone you argue with you're either
1. Really good friends with him
or
2. Secretly despise each other and in that case why are you still friends.

But in all seriousness, differing opinions on a character shouldn't make or break your relationship with someone. I personally love the idea of Goku getting in Smash (Yuyuki not DBZ) but my best friend doesn't like it. I'm not going to stop being friends with him. I don't care for Kamui/Corrin getting in Smash but my friend's probably most wanted character is him, we don't fight over it. If he doesn't want the Ice Climbers, he doesn't have to vote for them.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Lol this was an actual argument me and my friend had about ICs. He hates them, I don't know why we're still friends. View attachment 60193View attachment 60194View attachment 60195

This is hilarious! How do you go from arguing about a character's inclusion to said character ordering pizza from Pizza Hut?!?!?! You two are probably better friends than you think.

We definitely need as much support as we can get though. If you can somehow get him to vote for the ICies ONCE, that could help a lot. Just make sure he gives a reason other than "My friend forced me to vote for them,".

I actually want to see the end of this conversation!

 

[JaylonSonicSpeed]

Oh no guys. We're great friends, it was just a joke lol.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Oh no guys. We're great friends, it was just a joke lol.

Lol, OK. I really do want to see the rest of that conversation though. Message it to me if you don't want to post it on here.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

Oh no guys. We're great friends, it was just a joke lol.

Yeah, I guessed cuz the whole Pizza thing.

edit I want to see the convo too so add me if you're gonna post it in a PM.

 

[JaylonSonicSpeed]

Lol, OK. I really do want to see the rest of that conversation though. Message it to me if you don't want to post it on here.

Yeah, I guessed cuz the whole Pizza thing.

edit I want to see the convo too so add me if you're gonna post it in a PM.

I made a conversation

 

[ROBnWatch]

Thanks Jaylon.