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Best way to deal with Luigi's traction?

Illuminati13

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JulesF13
I've been a Luigi main since the game went out on the Wii U and I find that Luigi's traction is probably his worst characteristic in the game. Shield grab? Haha nope. Punishing after a laggy smash attack? Think again. My best way to deal with this is Perfect-shielding for everything, but thats not such an easy method. I heard from someone that one of the applications of Perfect Pivoting (PP) is the punish after getting pushed off from shielding an attack. I don't have the hands for PPing yet, so I haven't been able to try it. Does anyone know if this works? Or is there some other way to deal with this? I wanted to post this so other people can learn too.
 

MrTeddyBear

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 9, 2015
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142
You can try dashing then shielding; even if you don't perfect shield the momentum from your run will prevent you from sliding too far.

For general movement foxtroting is also good to use from time to time. I'm not sure what you're asking with perfect pivoting but you can P into shield which will also make you slide a bit into the direction that you pivoted. I'm not sure that you can PP immediately if you got pushed out of shield however.
 

hey_there

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Jun 19, 2014
Messages
269
His traction has upsides, too. Perfect Pivot is great because of his traction; JC usmash gets really nice distance; you can start charging a dsmash while walking and get a decent amount of distance from his bad traction. Sure it's hard to shield grab sometimes, but it's also hard to follow up combos or strings on Luigi because he'll often slide too far away.

You deal with it by learning the character and using his properties to your advantage =).
 

Liwi808

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Feb 22, 2015
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A decent way to get past his poor traction is to spot dodge instead of shielding. Yes it's more dangerous, but it'll allow you to get a harder punish than shielding.
 

J.Miller

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I love how walking has just been completely overlooked... honestly many Luigi players underestimate just how potent walking is.
I'm gonna leave this up to you all to figure it out but I feel people like to rush things too much and instead of relaxing, need to either approach with cyclone or choose an option where it is all or nothing.
Just for clarification, I do not mean walk EVERYWHERE but for times in which we need to stay in, at least try it.
 

Illuminati13

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JulesF13
I love how walking has just been completely overlooked... honestly many Luigi players underestimate just how potent walking is.
I'm gonna leave this up to you all to figure it out but I feel people like to rush things too much and instead of relaxing, need to either approach with cyclone or choose an option where it is all or nothing.
Just for clarification, I do not mean walk EVERYWHERE but for times in which we need to stay in, at least try it.
That is a good point, but I was talking more of an out of shield option. Ill remember to do that though!
 

Mew2

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I usually just foxtrot around the stage. Like just use the first part of the dash animation.
I foxtrot sometimes too, but I mostly prefer to just use shield to prevent sliding
 

MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
Always quit running with a jump, shield, attack, or grab depending on whats the best option
 
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MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
I love how walking has just been completely overlooked... honestly many Luigi players underestimate just how potent walking is.
I'm gonna leave this up to you all to figure it out but I feel people like to rush things too much and instead of relaxing, need to either approach with cyclone or choose an option where it is all or nothing.
Just for clarification, I do not mean walk EVERYWHERE but for times in which we need to stay in, at least try it.
Walking is only usefull for reads and down smashes
sorry to break it to ya
 

hey_there

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Walking is only usefull for reads and down smashes
sorry to break it to ya
I have to strongly disagree with you here. Walking + bad traction gives Luigi all of his options while still being mobile. Down smash is great out of a walk, but you can also move forward and jab, dash back to pivot grab, or turn around while sliding to get a faster utilt. You can also crawl dash backwards to bait out a move or otherwise space / retreat from an opponent while still facing them, which is good for landing a quick fsmash punish.
 

MonkeyArms

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I have to strongly disagree with you here. Walking + bad traction gives Luigi all of his options while still being mobile. Down smash is great out of a walk, but you can also move forward and jab, dash back to pivot grab, or turn around while sliding to get a faster utilt. You can also crawl dash backwards to bait out a move or otherwise space / retreat from an opponent while still facing them, which is good for landing a quick fsmash punish.
Dashing back to pivot grab requires running LOL
And luigi's crawl is NOT his walk just so you know.

Anyways walking to jab just isn't a good idea because you're going to get slapped in the face whether you like it or not
And the pivot up tilt would have very situational use so Its really not worth mentioning in my eyes
 

J.Miller

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Walking is only usefull for reads and down smashes
sorry to break it to ya
I'm sorry but this is hilarious, I would try to convince you but I'll let you do your thing. I'll do mine and we will see the results I'll simply ask these questions for you for you to think about, I don't even need an answer.
How do you approach?
Are you ready to perfect shield from a foxtrot or dash? (Oh wait...)
There is so much more to this, however you can either learn for yourself or you can continue with the thought walking in this game in general is that linear.
I'm done.
 
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MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
I'm sorry but this is hilarious, I would try to convince you but I'll let you do your thing. I'll do mine and we will see the results I'll simply ask these questions for you for you to think about, I don't even need an answer.
How do you approach?
Are you ready to perfect shield from a foxtrot or dash? (Oh wait...)
There is so much more to this, however you can either learn for yourself or you can continue with the thought walking in this game in general is that linear.
I'm done.
I wouldn't think its that linear if my opponent couldn't see me do it EVERY TIME I WAS DOING IT before I can do anything
 

hey_there

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269
Dashing back to pivot grab requires running LOL
Running is an option out of walking; walking is not an option out of running. Walking keeps more options available to you is the point I was trying to get across. No one is suggesting to only walk ever, but the thing is his walking is pretty useful combined with his traction.
And luigi's crawl is NOT his walk just so you know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itIOklgilxs&feature=player_detailpage#t=256s <- This is what I was referring to. It's not always a relevant movement option, but it can be useful situationally.
Anyways walking to jab just isn't a good idea because you're going to get slapped in the face whether you like it or not
And the pivot up tilt would have very situational use so Its really not worth mentioning in my eyes
Are we talking about the same jab? The one that sets up into grabs on a grab heavy character? The one with good range with an active hitbox on frame 2? And now that you mention it, perfect pivoting is actually quite useful, and I suggest practising it to level up your Luigi game.
before I can do anything
You can do literally every action out of a walk.

Also, J Miller is a notable tournament presence with Luigi, so I wouldn't dismiss his thoughts on the character that readily unless you've also got some results to rival his.

EDIT: http://smashboards.com/threads/notable-players-list-apr-15-1.396344 Might want to look at the "Luigi" section ; )
 
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MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
Running is an option out of walking; walking is not an option out of running. Walking keeps more options available to you is the point I was trying to get across. No one is suggesting to only walk ever, but the thing is his walking is pretty useful combined with his traction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itIOklgilxs&feature=player_detailpage#t=256s <- This is what I was referring to. It's not always a relevant movement option, but it can be useful situationally.

Are we talking about the same jab? The one that sets up into grabs on a grab heavy character? The one with good range with an active hitbox on frame 2? And now that you mention it, perfect pivoting is actually quite useful, and I suggest practising it to level up your Luigi game.

You can do literally every action out of a walk.

Also, J Miller is a notable tournament presence with Luigi, so I wouldn't dismiss his thoughts on the character that readily unless you've also got some results to rival his.
Notice how I used the word Pivot and you use the words perfect pivot.
And here are optinos I can do out of running: pivot grab, shield (which gives me every other option in about 15-30 frames if I'm not mistaken) Pivot f smash, grab, ANY special, pivot f-smash, up smash, any arial.
What walking adds: normal f tilt (not very usefull in itself) down tilt (which I can do out of crawl, and btw, I know that tech) up tilt (for READS let me say that again READS) normal f smash (once again for READS) and down smash (which is the best use of his traction aside from pivot grab)
And I have gotten grand finals in more than one tournament and usually rank high in tournaments I go to. Sometimes I'm a bit of a derp though, like in one of my grand finals sets
 
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Delvro

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Lexington, KY
No man, walking is really, really good. Obviously you're not going to walk across the entire stage but it gives you so many more options.

You're also arguing against one of the better Luigi's in the nation. Trust me, it's good. Learn to walk (not all the time obviously)
 

MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
No man, walking is really, really good. Obviously you're not going to walk across the entire stage but it gives you so many more options.

You're also arguing against one of the better Luigi's in the nation. Trust me, it's good. Learn to walk (not all the time obviously)
I never said walking was useless.
The problem with walking with luigi is the options are usually out classed by another option
Also, I DO NOT CARE how good a player is in debates
 
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Delvro

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You should care. If you've seen his matches you might realize that walking is often better than dashing. You're never going to become a better player with your attitude.
 

MonkeyArms

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You're never going to become a better player with your attitude.
you are not going to tell me I have a bad attitude because I can have a debate with my opinions
People have be giving me little to no evidence on why they think walking is so usefull. J.Miller simply refuesed to give anything to support his thoughts
I love how walking has just been completely overlooked... honestly many Luigi players underestimate just how potent walking is.
I'm gonna leave this up to you all to figure it out but I feel people like to rush things too much and instead of relaxing, need to either approach with cyclone or choose an option where it is all or nothing.
Just for clarification, I do not mean walk EVERYWHERE but for times in which we need to stay in, at least try it.

I'm sorry but this is hilarious, I would try to convince you but I'll let you do your thing. I'll do mine and we will see the results I'll simply ask these questions for you for you to think about, I don't even need an answer.
How do you approach?
Are you ready to perfect shield from a foxtrot or dash? (Oh wait...)
There is so much more to this, however you can either learn for yourself or you can continue with the thought walking in this game in general is that linear.
I'm done.
These are 2 seperate posts
 

Delvro

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Lexington, KY
You've already been told why it's good, and you're not really debating. You're just telling everyone that they're wrong.

Walking is good because it closes gaps between you and your opponent without overcommitting. Dashing is a committment, because all of your dash options force you to commit. And so you can't change your action so easily based on what your opponent is doing. If you short hop that's a huge commitment. dash grab and dash attacks are also commitments although dash grab less so. They are easily countered.

Walking is an extremely safe option and allows you to react to the situation. Walk --> jab is especially good because it stuffs a lot of options and gives you time to react since jab has very little cooldown. At least, that's why I use it. I very rarely use walk --> downsmash, I feel like jab is just better
 
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MonkeyArms

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You've already been told why it's good, and you're not really debating. You're just telling everyone that they're wrong.

Walking is good because it closes gaps between you and your opponent without overcommitting. Dashing is a committment, because all of your dash options force you to commit. And so you can't change your action so easily based on what your opponent is doing. If you short hop that's a huge commitment. dash grab and dash attacks are also commitments although dash grab less so. They are easily countered.

Walking is an extremely safe option and allows you to react to the situation. Walk --> jab is especially good because it stuffs a lot of options and gives you time to react since jab has very little cooldown.
I'm not saying people are wrong. People either tell me why they think its good and get a natural response or they give me some crap that isn't even walking in the first place (like the guy talking about perfect pivots, the other thing involves walking). And I may have said walking into a jab isn't a good idea but I'm talking about it being a very situational thing.
If I would have said people are wrong, I would have said this:
No, it is completely useless and illogical to walk. The point you made makes no sense.
Instead of this:
And here are options I can do out of running: pivot grab, shield (which gives me every other option in about 15-30 frames if I'm not mistaken) Pivot f smash, grab, ANY special, pivot f-smash, up smash, any arial.
What walking adds: normal f tilt (not very usefull in itself) down tilt (which I can do out of crawl, and btw, I know that tech) up tilt (for READS let me say that again READS) normal f smash (once again for READS) and down smash (which is the best use of his traction aside from pivot grab)
Because I'm trying to back up my point
And yes I just said your wrong because well, you tried to say I was doing something I wasn't.

Otherwise I can see why you would think walking has use in this post, but whenever I try to walk towards the opponent, I tend to get slapped in the face.
 

J.Miller

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I'm not saying people are wrong. People either tell me why they think its good and get a natural response or they give me some crap that isn't even walking in the first place (like the guy talking about perfect pivots, the other thing involves walking). And I may have said walking into a jab isn't a good idea but I'm talking about it being a very situational thing.
If I would have said people are wrong, I would have said this:
No, it is completely useless and illogical to walk. The point you made makes no sense.
Instead of this:

Because I'm trying to back up my point
And yes I just said your wrong because well, you tried to say I was doing something I wasn't.

Otherwise I can see why you would think walking has use in this post, but whenever I try to walk towards the opponent, I tend to get slapped in the face.
I said to myself I would not reply, but my goal is to help people so I will try and help you but it is down to you whether you take or leave the advise.

Walking is core fundamental that gives ANY character multiple options as long as they use it correctly, it is hard to use walking incorrectly.

Why do I speak of walking so much?

Closes distance between yourself and your opponent.
(This is without having the delay of shielding, jabbing, and actually having all options available to you that fox trotting and dashing take away whilst you are in these animations.)
In Luigi's case, walking whilst throwing periodic sensible fireballs means he gains notable stage presence .
Whereas when dashing you commit even more, you can no longer be ready to perfect shield (As efficiently, it's not impossible to perfect shield after a dash but you make the job harder for no good read other than wanting to close space quicker) incoming projectiles because you are about to be hit.
Like I have said before and multiple have told you, walking everywhere is NOT what I am suggesting or attempting to say you should do.
I will stress that walking has multiple uses both defensively and offensively.

A visual demonstration of what I talk about can be noted here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ekwB3c6CRg - 20:56

I am re-watching this match myself and I can say I achieve almost nothing by dashing and then shielding...I've already provided Static the opportunity to punish me multiple times in game 1.
Game 2 you will more of what I am speaking of and have it mentioned to you as well. I can definitely be walking even more to gain positional stage control whilst maintaining the ability to attack but my game-play is not as refined as it is now.

I asked you question in my previous statement.
How do you approach?
Luigi's approaches are really not that strong, but there are powerful because what they can condition an opponent to do.
SH fair (Good, but an opponent not ignorant of the fact this is will punish it which is why it needs to be used in moderation)
Cyclone ( A go to option for a number of Luigi players, one that I will really only go to when I have either not used it enough or it's arguably only one of the other choices I have left.)
I say that because although the multiple hit boxes are good, as an approach option it is highly punishable as long as the opponent respects the option, to get a maximum of 9% and MAYBE some positional advantage if you do get the final hit of cyclone is not worth the ending lag being severely punished by a smash attack or possibly being set up for a gimp because you are about to be thrown.
Cyclone can also be teched whilst Luigi is still spinning if you do not rise accordingly so it's something I don't see heavily considered enough, I'm not saying you said otherwise I am just saying what I see in general and explaining why it can cause anyone problems.
SH D-air - One of our better options, auto cancels, throws out a hitbox that is not too heavily committed and we are ready to jab. grab or do whatever we want as we land but not too much horizontal distance covered.
Fireball - Best projectile we have ever had. 6%, travels a decent amount of distance and maintains the damage the only setback is the hit-stun is actually minimal but not everyone exploits this so as an approach option mixed with walking you can see what your opponent does in response to you throwing periodic fireballs and grab/dash grab dependent on spacing if you see shielding patterns too often. Use aerials accordingly if they choose jump, jab if they do close the distance on the ground.

Walking and dashing you have these options... though having to cancel out of a dash you are progressively giving yourself more opportunities to get punished and high level players will use this against you.
I have already gone on a tangent with some of this but I hope even if you do not see what I am saying right now you will come to see it in due time.

On another note, I do agree with you on this point you made.
It should not matter how good a player is to have a debate with them...though you do need to be able to logically debate with anyone.
The reasons why I can say your reasoning was weak is because the opponent can see what you are doing when you dash at them as well. (To be able to jab from a dashing state you have to let the animation finish press too early gets you a dash attack)
You commit more, have even less options, unless your dashing with the intent on punishing which not all dash attempts in general are about punishing but showcasing frustration or just wanting to close distance quicker.
Through walking in moderation, you keep all or your options open and with Luigi you have some of the best buttons and grab damage conversions this game has to offer unless you have predictable patterns the opponent can only account for what you next intend to do from a walk because you have every option available to you including dash attack (smack the d-pad left or right, hit down on the c-stick and you get dash attack.

Keep this for future reference, although I did reference this earlier I was not as in-depth as I am being now so if you do not see my point even after all of this then fair enough.
I can say I tried and for those who understand neutral game and wanting to have stage control and all options available more often than not will see what I am attempting to get across.
 
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MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
I said to myself I would not reply, but my goal is to help people so I will try and help you but it is down to you whether you take or leave the advise.

Walking is core fundamental that gives ANY character multiple options as long as they use it correctly, it is hard to use walking incorrectly.

Why do I speak of walking so much?

Closes distance between yourself and your opponent.
(This is without having the delay of shielding, jabbing, and actually having all options available to you that fox trotting and dashing take away whilst you are in these animations.)
In Luigi's case, walking whilst throwing periodic sensible fireballs means he gains notable stage presence .
Whereas when dashing you commit even more, you can no longer be ready to perfect shield (As efficiently, it's not impossible to perfect shield after a dash but you make the job harder for no good read other than wanting to close space quicker) incoming projectiles because you are about to be hit.
Like I have said before and multiple have told you, walking everywhere is NOT what I am suggesting or attempting to say you should do.
I will stress that walking has multiple uses both defensively and offensively.

A visual demonstration of what I talk about can be noted here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ekwB3c6CRg - 20:56

I am re-watching this match myself and I can say I achieve almost nothing by dashing and then shielding...I've already provided Static the opportunity to punish me multiple times in game 1.
Game 2 you will more of what I am speaking of and have it mentioned to you as well. I can definitely be walking even more to gain positional stage control whilst maintaining the ability to attack but my game-play is not as refined as it is now.

I asked you question in my previous statement.
How do you approach?
Luigi's approaches are really not that strong, but there are powerful because what they can condition an opponent to do.
SH fair (Good, but an opponent not ignorant of the fact this is will punish it which is why it needs to be used in moderation)
Cyclone ( A go to option for a number of Luigi players, one that I will really only go to when I have either not used it enough or it's arguably only one of the other choices I have left.)
I say that because although the multiple hit boxes are good, as an approach option it is highly punishable as long as the opponent respects the option, to get a maximum of 9% and MAYBE some positional advantage if you do get the final hit of cyclone is not worth the ending lag being severely punished by a smash attack or possibly being set up for a gimp because you are about to be thrown.
Cyclone can also be teched whilst Luigi is still spinning if you do not rise accordingly so it's something I don't see heavily considered enough, I'm not saying you said otherwise I am just saying what I see in general and explaining why it can cause anyone problems.
SH D-air - One of our better options, auto cancels, throws out a hitbox that is not too heavily committed and we are ready to jab. grab or do whatever we want as we land but not too much horizontal distance covered.
Fireball - Best projectile we have ever had. 6%, travels a decent amount of distance and maintains the damage the only setback is the hit-stun is actually minimal but not everyone exploits this so as an approach option mixed with walking you can see what your opponent does in response to you throwing periodic fireballs and grab/dash grab dependent on spacing if you see shielding patterns too often. Use aerials accordingly if they choose jump, jab if they do close the distance on the ground.

Walking and dashing you have these options... though having to cancel out of a dash you are progressively giving yourself more opportunities to get punished and high level players will use this against you.
I have already gone on a tangent with some of this but I hope even if you do not see what I am saying right now you will come to see it in due time.

On another note, I do agree with you on this point you made.
It should not matter how good a player is to have a debate with them...though you do need to be able to logically debate with anyone.
The reasons why I can say your reasoning was weak is because the opponent can see what you are doing when you dash at them as well. (To be able to jab from a dashing state you have to let the animation finish press too early gets you a dash attack)
You commit more, have even less options, unless your dashing with the intent on punishing which not all dash attempts in general are about punishing but showcasing frustration or just wanting to close distance quicker.
Through walking in moderation, you keep all or your options open and with Luigi you have some of the best buttons and grab damage conversions this game has to offer unless you have predictable patterns the opponent can only account for what you next intend to do from a walk because you have every option available to you including dash attack (smack the d-pad left or right, hit down on the c-stick and you get dash attack.

Keep this for future reference, although I did reference this earlier I was not as in-depth as I am being now so if you do not see my point even after all of this then fair enough.
I can say I tried and for those who understand neutral game and wanting to have stage control and all options available more often than not will see what I am attempting to get across.
The 2 options I have highlighted are the ones I use the most when I approach, however, I usually do this far enough away from the opponent that if they roll the would be punished by my down air or nair
As for walking with fireballs at the beginning, I do the same thing, but I fox trot, there's about 5 frames with no fireball
I would watch that video but I don't have time right now
 

Peru

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I love how walking has just been completely overlooked... honestly many Luigi players underestimate just how potent walking is.
I'm gonna leave this up to you all to figure it out but I feel people like to rush things too much and instead of relaxing, need to either approach with cyclone or choose an option where it is all or nothing.
Just for clarification, I do not mean walk EVERYWHERE but for times in which we need to stay in, at least try it.
Agreed. I just walk up to people at times and get a good grab or jab combo on them
 

Crispy_

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Yeah, his poor traction is annoying at times. But sometimes you gotta do what all good Smash players do; adapt. Make the best of his flaws. :4luigi:
 
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