Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

[DavemanCozy]

Shoutouts to @moyshe for putting together the banner and Abysswolf for the sprites

Welcome to the Fox Matchup Discussion thread!​

We'll be discussing Fox's matchups in this iteration of smash, with three characters every disussion. When contributing, please make sure to provide proper arguments and content (videos are amazing if you can provide them, but not a forced requirement) to make sure your opinion counts in the discussion. ie, Preferably say more than just "the mu is x:y in favor of fighter."

Matchups

Keep in mind the changes to Fox:

- Rapid jab is now much better ever since jab lock was removed.
- Ignore anything about jab lock; it essentially made some matchups free for Fox.
- Meta has changed a lot since these discussions.

I'm using Anther's current stage list when discussing stages.
Starters:
BF**, FD*, SV, Lylat, T&C
CPs:
Duck Hunt, Dreamland, Miiverse** Omegas*

Other useful info;
Jab-Upsmash.txt
Fox-JabjabUsmash.txt (taken from after jab lock was removed from Fox FB group). There is a specific % range where jab -> jab 2 -> Usmash will work to seal the KO.

Discussion 1
vs

Spoiler

Summary
Toon Link used to be regarded the weaker of the Link's before 1.0.6 took Link's jab cancel lock away. Currently he is regarded the better Link, being more mobile, quicker, and having better traps. His Z-air keeps distance, his bombs can confirm into his powerful aerial F-air, and his U-tilt juggles cause trouble for Fox. A matchup of patience, waiting for Tink to use one of his laggy moves and punish it, but where Fox also needs to be wary of his traps and his combat moves.

Tink sits in Mid-tier at D. The matchup vs Fox is generally considered to be about even or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5) in the current meta.

In-Depth
Main thing Fox needs to look for is how Toon Link chooses his landings. If you can keep TL off the ground and without stage control you will control the pace of the match. His anti-juggle options are using bombs and D-airing down. His floaty falling speed lets him fall victim to Fox's extreme frame traps. Baiting his airdodge and punishing it is very good.

Toon Link can't really deal with pressure, so you need to get in mid-range and limit it. Punishing the startup of his projectiles with like dash attack or N-air would do. Toon Link will try keeping Fox away with zair, which has lag. If you see him jump, you can punish before zair comes out by running in. Be cautious of miss-spacing tilts near Toon Link, since he has the better range than us. His main juggling move against Fox are his UTilt chains. All projectiles beat Fox Illusion. Recovering should be done carefully against TL; Higher or straight to the ledge would be better.

Shielding against TL is really good since he has poor options to deal with shields and a laggy grab. Still; be wary of b-throw. Kills Fox at ~120.

Stages
Don't: Smashville, Lylat.
Do: Dreamland, Battlefield, Final Destination.
Other: Town & City, Duck Hunt.

vs

Spoiler

Summary
1.0.6 took Link's jab cancel lock away, and in 1.1.0 we got ours taken away. Link has a lot more trouble dealing with pressure than Toon Link does, so the matchup requires Fox to be constantly outside of Link's bubble ready to punish and limiting his movement options. He is the slower of the Links with more range and power.

Despite his buffs, Link is Low tier at G in the current meta. The matchup is considered +2 for Fox (6:4) in the current meta.

In-Depth

Link has a great fastfall speed which makes him more susceptible to juggles from Fox He has a recovery that Fox can intercept. As long as you're not throwing out anything laggy and keeping your distance, Fox should have no problem avoiding most of Link's moveset. His bombs don't combo into as much and are regarded to be worse. His gale boomerang has the pulling wind property, but it can be used against him to get close to him fast or reflect it to push him away. His B-air is one of his better aerials for playing footsies along with his grounded jab and pivot F-tilts. D-air gives him a long lasting hitbox to cover his landings, and has been improved greatly in this game.

Link's N-air is reliable at combobreaking, and his D-air should be respected when juggling him with U-airs. Bombs as well can protect his landings. Greater disjoints let Link cover getup options with all his tilts. His U-throw is particularly powerful, despite him having the same problem as Toon Link with his grab being laggy, it's what he'll go for when Fox is at ~120ish. Be mindful of Link's jab. It's not nearly as good as it was when he could cancel it better, but it's still there and it's now a mixup he has. His U-smash is fairly powerful and has hits that 'link' (pardon the pun) together into the finishing move. Good SDI still lets Fox drop out of U-smash.

Stages
WIP

vs

Spoiler

Summary
Playing against Little Mac can be described as a boxing match; go in, go out. Fox does better vs Mac by playing defensively, baiting him to use one of his moves and then punishing their end-lag.

Little Mac is at G in Low tier in the current meta. Despite this, he's probably the hardest Low tier MU for Fox to deal with because of his design. The matchup is generally considered around ±0 or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5).

In-Depth
Little Mac has great kill power and a good neutral good, but he can't follow up or juggle nearly as well as Fox can, plus there's a good possibility of gimping him.

Little Mac's saving grace is that he can kill significantly earlier than Fox can, and by significant I mean 0-death with D-tilt > D-tilt > KO Punch. He also has his jab that confirms into Rising Uppercut, his Down-smash to cover ledge and the most powerful U-smash in the game when sweet-spotted. He has a fairly fast dash attack as well that outspaces Fox's tilts. All of Little Mac's tilts are significantly fast as well. His F-tilt is a two hit move and the second is quite powerful, his d-tilt can combo Fox at low percents and confirm into Rising Uppercut for the KO. His smash attacks also have super-armor on start, making for a very unique neutral game that requires learning to play against. Slip Counter becomes a mindgame and should always be kept in mind; it is one of his few options of recovering onstage and can kill any follow ups and juggles.

Against Little Mac, Fox actually has an offstage gimp with N-air and Shine. His Jolt Haymaker is pretty strong though, and should be careful if intercepting. D-smash KO's him at ~80%, earlier than U-smash, because of the horizontal knockback it sends him offstage in. If Little Mac's Rising Uppercut doesn't sweetspot the ledge, so Fox can sit by the ledge, shield the hits, and D-smash him right after the last hit to send him to his doom.

Stages
Don't: Lylat, Final Destination.
Do: Pretty much any other stage than the above two.

Discussion 2
vs

Spoiler

Summary
Yoshi has the best air mobility in the game, great dash attack to intercept dash-startups and landings, great projectile for control in general, one of the best set of jabs, arguably the best command grab, and one of the best N-airs to get him out of pressure. He comes short with his rolls and shield being worse than average, his situational KO setups, and an average neutral game.

The matchup against Fox is heavily debated over this thread, but over time the general agreement seems to be that the matchup is around ±0 or +1 for Fox (5:5 ~ 5.5:4.5). General agreement is that stage control and neutral is in Fox's favor, but offstage is in Yoshi's.

In Depth
The match up is fairly even onstage. Yoshi is slightly better at juggling Fox with his U-tilt and can live slightly longer, but Fox makes up for it with a better neutral game and mitigating Yoshi's landing options. Yoshi has a clear advantage when it comes to edge guarding mainly because of his air mobility and eggs. He struggles with characters that can swat him out of the air and don't let him land; Fox is very good at the latter using U-throw and chasing him onstage to mitigate his landings. Onstage, Yoshi's eggs can be dashed under and the endlag can be punished. Fox's rapid jabs are hard to escape for Yoshi (since the jab lock was removed), which make them good for getting space between Yoshi. Fox's U-tilt juggles won't start to work until about 10% is tacked on.

N-air is Yoshi's fastest aerial, while his jabs are his fastest ground moves; both are his best tools to relieve pressure, meaning that Fox needs to be careful when starting combos. Yoshi can also use the super-armor in his double jump to tank a hit and counter back. While both are fairly fast panic moves, they are both unsafe on shield. His egg lay is a very good command grab that let's him land against opponents expecting him to throw out a hitbox. It has 20 frames of startup, however, meaning that it is fairly punishable and reactable to. As Fox, you should be careful of trying to wait near the ledge against Yoshi. Being offstage, Yoshi can stage-spike with B-air or he can gimp with F-air. He can position Fox offstage by tossing eggs and continually forcing Fox into poor positions with them. The hitbox of his D-tilt can catch Fox trying to grab the ledge and set him up for a run-off F-air.

KO moves Yoshi has at his disposal are jab -> F-smash or Yoshi Bomb. This puts pressure on Fox's shield but can be escaped by dashing or rolling away. Offstage F-airs can be set up with Egg tosses. Yoshi's U-air can come from a F-air onstage spike (which can be teched) and d-throw (which can be jumped away from). U-smash is powerful on stages like Battlefield and Lylat, since it covers the platforms above as well. His Egg Lay can also trap Fox and set him up for a KO move, but keep in mind that as long as you are inside the egg, you will not suffer any knockback until you break out of it. You can switch between delaying and accelerating your timing to break out of the egg to throw off Yoshi's timing.

In depth summary and other notes;
- Always be aware of Egg Lay. Bait it out, careful near the ledge.
- Egg Throw is very good offstage but not great against Fox onstage. Perfect shielding egg-throw or just dashing under the trajectory makes it punishable. Recovering Yoshi's can have their Egg Throw reflected when they're trying to get back onstage.

Did I miss anything?

Stages
Do: FD, T&C, Battlefield, Dreamland
Don't: Smashville, Lylat
Other: Duck Hunt

Yet to update:
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(this MU has changed a lot, most of the posts were pre-Mewtwo patch)
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Discussion 3
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(No more D-throw tornado, still in Luigi's favour)
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(Agreed to be about even)
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Discussion 4 - Discussion Start
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(Agreed to be in Ness's favour since the jab lock was removed)
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(Agreed to be in Fox's favour / about even)
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(See re-discussions with Kirby buffs: 1.1.0 and 1.1.3)

Discussion 5 - Discussion start
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Discussion 6 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 7 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 8 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 9 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 10 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 11 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 12 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 13 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 14 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 15 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 16 - Discussion Start
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Discussion 17 - Discussion Start
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Discusion 18 - Discussion Start
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vs (buffed)
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[/spoiler]

I'll be updating this thread and including direct links to posts made by contributors in the thread. Will be basing the info based on accuracy, experience, and what description you provide. I'll be picking up the pace during summer, when I'm done exams (so close!).

If you would like to ask questions regarding another matchup you're having trouble with, the Fox's Bad Matchups discussion thread and the Mission Complete! - Fox Discussion thread are good places to go (links below).

Thread Directory
Mission Complete! Fox Discussion Thread - General Fox discussion. Q&A thread, discuss anything Fox.
Fox's Smash 4 Moveset/Meta Thread - Discussion of Fox's moveset in Smash 4.
Lylat Datalink - Fox Guide and Information Thread - A thorough guide by Zelkam on Fox.
Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Fox - Amazing Ampharos 's Custom moveset project thread on Fox.
Never give up! Trust your instincts! - Fox Video Collection Thread - Find tournament videos of Fox here.

Other MU Discussion threads in the Fox boards:

Spoiler

Fox's Bad Matchups - Matchups that Fox players were/are finding difficult. A good place to go to for those MUs you have questions about.
FOX's MATCH UPS - Preliminary numbers with comments providing insight in his matchups.

Let's get the Airwing Barrel Rolling and keep up the discussion.

 

[Timbers]

Thanks for setting this up. I noticed some boards have been dedicating a few days/a week to single/several character(s) to talk about. I feel like this may be the path to go, rather than having people pick from a hat of 50 other characters. To keep pace with Fox board's slower activity, I would advocate for 4 characters a week, mixing one high profile and common character with the other 3 (e.g. Diddy, DK, Dr. Mario, DHD) to increase activity and productivity each week (or every few days), and perhaps using some insight on which characters we feel have been relatively explored and which ones are still struggling to find common ground (e.g. Peach, G&W, Shulk, Palutena, etc etc). This also encourages us, as the Fox boards, to reach out to other character boards to receive input from them.

This method obviously has its drawbacks though, due to people potentially having MU issues with characters who are not being discussed in such a thread's format. I guess we could route them to the "Fox's bad MU's" or whatever, i dunno.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I agree, we should probably handle like 2 at a time but this is a good thread.

As far a little mac goes I don't have much experience against any professional little macs but the ones I've played have never been much of an issue: I feel it may be 45:55 mac if you think it's a bad matchup but not much worse than that. I don't think fox is at that much of a disadvantage in this matchup. Mac gets juggled and you can bait out counters. Also his recovery is bad and easy to take advantage of with nair.

(Also, I'm familiar with the xx:xx format where we come to a consensus on a total like 70:30 favoring once character or another , you currently have +1,-1, idk how you want to do it going forward)

 

[Timbers]

I think a big thing to note is that these boards aren't all that active, and bringing in activity from other boards would really help jumpstart these conversations. I'm not sure how many characters we should be discussing at once, and we can probably move the discussion along to the next cycle of characters once the thread seems to be dying. Two or three characters at once would be good, I may be leaning more towards three due to the lack of activity here, and having more characters to talk about may help spark productivity.

If I may, I'd suggest these cycles:

Cycle 1: Toon Link/Link/Little Mac
Cycle 2: Yoshi/Diddy Kong/Donkey Kong
Cycle 3: Luigi/Mario/Dr. Mario
Cycle 4: Ness/Sonic/Kirby
Cycle 5: Pit/Dark Pit/C Falcon
Cycle 6: RosaLuma/Samus/Sheik
Cycle 7: Charizard/Robin/Wario
Cycle 8: WFT/Lucario/Villager
Cycle 9: Bowser/Bowser Jr./ZSS
Cycle 10: MegaMan/Lucina/Marth
Cycle 11: Pikachu/Duck Hunt/ROB
Cycle 12: Ganon/Greninja/Olimar
Cycle 13: Ike/Jiggs/MK
Cycle 14: DDD/PacMan/Peach
Cycle 15: Zelda/Falco/Palutena
Cycle 16: Shulk/G&W/Mewtwo

I feel like following rotations closely to these cycles keeps the limelight in each cycle for characters of interest. This allows us to target popular characters (and likely having advanced metas) early on while giving slower metagames time to fully explore their characters before talking about them. Characters that likely require a higher learning curve (Pikachu/Shulk/Peach/PacMan/MegaMan) were placed lower on the list to give time for these players to refine their character skill.

The early cycles contain characters that we as Fox mains have been yearning for based on recent discussions as well.

 

[DavemanCozy]

@ Timbers : four sounds like too many for a single week, but three seems like a good number. I like your schedule / cycle on the ones we could discuss. Starting today, we'll implement it. I'll edit the OP later today (once I'm off my phone) to show the chars we're currently discussing and we'll get to sharing this on the other boards.

If activity starts to slow down though, I'll probably move it to only 2 per week instead.

@ SnowballBob33 : the format I used (+1 and -1) was to give an informal number, and I thought this would be better as a kind of general idea rather than me giving a concrete ratio. I know the Shulk boards have been using this format, but we could use MU ratios if everyone's more comfortable with that.

As for Little Mac, 55:45 sounds right to me, I do still think it's bad for Fox though. He's easy to juggle once you pop him up, but the trick is getting him up. Reminds me of fighting Yoshi with his double jump, except in this case its in the ground: you think you're doing something right when you attack him only to get your hit absorbed and punished, you get sent flying while he remains grounded. Feels like a boxing match: go in, duck out, go in, evade, and it's all a big mindgame in this sense to bait out his counter-attack options, of which he has plenty.
I feel like we have a tad less room for mistakes than Little Mac. It's true his recovery is very bad (which is why I agree this MU isn't as bad), but he also deals a more damage than us with his ground moves, and he has us outranged in the ground (like his f-tilt spaces him perfectly, for example, the only thing we have likewise is F-smash). For us to deal damage, we need to string together moves up close, something we can't get greedy with when he has counter, smash attack armour on start-up, upB to escape.
His tilts are also pretty brutal. F-tilt stuffs ground approaches, U-tilt covers above his head and behind him, and repeated D-tilt let's him do the same thing we can do with our repeated U-tilts to us. 1 frame jab is also annoying. Additionally, he can't be jab locked and escapes our jab confirms as well, again Up-b lets him escape here (intangibility on startup frames) and the startup hit will pop us up into his next hits.

I do think it's completely doable, but it does take work and careful play to get that victory.

 

[Disaster Master]

I haven't played any good macs, but the ones I have played on Anther's ladder are sort of hit or miss. It always goes one of two ways:
1. I get a few moves in and eventually manage to get the mac offstage. Gimp his recovery. Get the stock without taking much damage usually.
2. The mac pulls off a string of moves that get me to kill percent right away. He takes a very quick stock.
Neither of them have a significant advantage over the other. It's definitely around 50/50.

As for the Links. I've never seen a toon link. I've fought a lot of Links and had some issues adapting to Link not being completely terrible at first. Now a lot of the times I can run up mid projectile spam, powershield the arrow or boomerang and grab Link. Dash attack caught me off guard the first few times but now it and Link's smashes are pretty easy to shield. Upsmash is just silly. Fox will land on the ground mid hit and you can punish from there. I'm guessing the MU remains the same as brawl once you get used to Link's improvements. And toon link is just a weaker version of Link now, right? Right? I haven't fought any REALLY good Links though.

 

[Timbers]

Little Mac

As has been stated, Mac has a really good ground game. It's hard to put Mac in disadvantage as Fox. A lot of your options get stuffed by his incredibly quick jabs/dtilt, and Fox suffers from low range and lack of disjoints to safely pressure Mac. Inability to jab cancel hurts, limiting your CQC options to grab, retreating nair, and utilt (which is laughable against Mac's 1 frame jab). Having a subpar sh air game, limited offstage options, and weak throw followups does not help here either.

The biggest thing that Fox (and many characters) have going for them is that Mac struggles on quite a few stages, and his recovery. Once Mac is in the air, it's easy to force airdodges and punish with nairs and bairs. Dsmash (while very punishable on whiff or block) and bair send Mac at DIRTY horizontal angles. Should you get the percent/stock lead, you can run the timer effectively on a good chunk of stages. I think if anyone puts enough time and effort into Mac as a solid counterpick character, we'll see him do very well against some of the viable roster. Fox is definitely one of them.

It's likely slight disadvantage for Fox. 45:55, perhaps 50:50.

Link

Not a bad character. Link has a great fastfall speed. Link's nair is reliable at combobreaking. Link dair should be respected. Bombs protect his landings. A mix of these make it hard for Fox to frametrap landings. Link kills VERY early, and I'd say he has better options than most of the cast for covering getup options. Lots of disjoints. I've only played two Link's that effectively utilized their jab1 cancel, but this is not to be slept on. Scary stuff comes from this.

Buuuut, I mean it's Link. It's easy to to sit at a distance where you're threatening, and yet can play defensively. Shield hurts Link a lot, and the best he gets off of a high risk tether grab is measly chip damage and a neutral reset. Until Link escapes far enough into the air, you can stick on him easily with fast closerange options. Jab cancels are effective here. Link also has one of the few recoveries that Fox can safely contest. As long as you're not throwing out anything laggy then Fox should have no problem avoiding most of Link's moveset. Character kills very early, and it can be difficult to safely get in on Link. He's not free for Fox. Be mindful of Link's jab. It's good.

Modest advantage for Fox. 60:40, may be looking at 65:35 down the line.

Toon Link

A character regarded as worse of the two Link's, but very likely has a much better MU against Fox. His bombs and boomerang is better than Link's. His mobility specs make it HARD to pressure him, having all of Link's landing options plus much more. His utilt combos Fox until the mid 30% reliably. His aerials are disjointed, fast, and potent, and can all be setup reliably via bombs and (to a lesser extent) boomerang. His high risk tether grab is actually scary good with a very good throw kill on bthrow. There's no real "safe" stage positioning you have as Fox in this MU. TL forces haphazard approaches.

I'd argue that TL's ground game is much worse than Link's in this MU though. His ground moves are still slow, and he lacks the crazy disjoints that Link has. TL's floaty and lacks a great fastfall speed. His nair hitbox is nonexistent below him. If he is unable to escape Fox with his midair then he has a hard time. However, getting into this advantageous position is hard. TL's airspeed is great, and his aerials are great; even moreso with the help of his bomb and boomerang setups.

I've yet to play very many good TL's, so this could be MU inexperience talking. I'm hesitant to place concrete numbers on the MU, but I'd argue this is at the very best an even MU for Fox. I wouldn't be surprised to see it swing in TL's favor. This MU was played Zan vs. Larry some time ago. I think Larry's inexperience with TL shows but it may shed some light to anyone unfamiliar with TL as to what he is capable of displaying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L62EtoZbZjY

 

[Foster J.]

About the 45:55
I agree Lil Mac having the advandtage against Fox, and especially on FD.
ZeRo also posted a neat little video on this match up, and you see Monkey almost always gets the stock after he's died.

But Fox is better at utilizing platforms, so Battlefield, IMO is a good stage against Mac, I'm slightly biased of going Halberd against Mac, as I feel it can hurt you if he gets a punish opportunity and lands an Usmash.

As for I've got nothing to add, reflecting gale boomerang does a number on him, and he's very easy to combo.

Now is a WHOLE other ballgame, as he can utilize bombs a lot better with the faster aerials. I don't have much experience in this, but seeing people like Yackabean and Jash play, you either have to be on point with the reflector, or powershield a lot, and even then, he's got frame traps with his bomb to Nair juggling. the "Instant Z Drop" bomb is also nasty, and something to take note of.

But I feel, from watching Jash, is the most common killing move of Toon Link is a Bomb into a running Usmash, or Bomb to Fair/Bair. So you should always be mindful of if the Toon Link is capable of catching bombs after having thrown them.

Also, it's very important to note on both Links, that if they don't catch their boomerang, it will be on CD, giving you a small window of opportunity to close the distance.

In my Opinion I give the MU 45:55 to Toons, especially on FD, you'd want a platform in the way to catch some of those bombs, and even though his Usmash will kill vertically, using Halberd is a solid option, especially as you can recover from below stage if you were to attempt to punish a tether recovery.

 

[Disaster Master]

Well no one mentioned it so far, but Link's getup attack from the ledge WILL spike you if you are airborne. If you try to gimp Link and miss and jump too soon the back end of that hitbox will send you plummeting to your doom. Not sure about TL though. Still haven't fought one.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a TL main from SoCal and I get to play the matchup quite often with Larry's fox.

- The main thing you need to work/look for is our landings. We generally have a tough time landing and fox has great juggles, so if you can keep TL off the ground and without stage control you will control the pace of the match.
- We can't really deal with pressure, so you need to not let us have space. Punishing the startup of our projectiles with like dash attack or any safe aerial would do.
- We fall victim to your extreme frame traps (in the air especially), so forcing our airdodge (which we like to do alot in most cases) is super good.
- Be cautious of our UTilts. Since you are a fast faller, you will get combo'd a lot from it. While we can't deal with pressure, we do have some good close combat moves.
- All projectiles beat your side b. Be careful using that to recover, probably shouldn't use in an angle that goes straight toward TL. Higher or straight to the ledge would be better.
- We will try to keep you away with zair, but unlike brawl we cant airdodge zair without lag. If you see our jump, you can punish before zair comes out. Even if we dont zair we have startup on all of our projectiles so a quick nair or even usmash at high percents will do the trick.
- You can reflect our projectiles and jump out of it, however I know whenever I see Larry do shine when I have a bomb I always just Zair him or attack him with something else.
- BE WARY OF BACK THROW. YOU MAY BE A FAST FALLER BUT YOU'RE STILL LIGHT. KILLS AROUND 120~


I think the matchup is 50/50 or 55/45 Fox's favor. Try to avoid giving TL smashville. Your best stage would be Battlefield, FD benefits both. Town and City will probably be our second choice. Halberd is very good for you.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'll start this by saying that Toon Link is a matchup I don't have much experience with in this game (Jakat is the only Toronto Toon Link I've played).

Reading the comments here though, seems like the MU hasn't changed much from Brawl and remains even (or close to). Has the MU really changed that much from Brawl -> Smash 4 to give Toon Link a small advantage, @ Foster J. ? Insta z-drop is pretty nice, but it certainly doesn't replace the freedom he had in Brawl with bomb dropping literally whenever he wanted.

Also, I did notice when playing Jakat that Toon Link's bonk-erang was stopping my attempts at recovery with Side-B. That thing is massive, definitely great for controlling space and keeping characters out.

EDIT: I moved my Little Mac comments to this post, which were originally in the OP, to free up some space there.
45:55

Imo, this MU is bad for Fox, but not by too much.

Negatives:

• Generally faster ground game than Fox: slightly faster dashing speed, armour on startup of smashes keep him anchored in the ground (Fox prefers to pop up his opponents), faster jab. Dash Attack -> Dash Attack and D-tilt -> D-tilt combo Fox at low percentages. U-tilt covers his back, F-tilt spaces him forward. Fox has a hard time up-close
• Down-B Counter kills follow-up opportunities we have, becomes a mindgame.
• KO punch (or as I like to call it, "Rest Punch") KO's as early as 25%. Worst of all, the meter builds when Little Mac takes damage, and since Fox is very good at building damage...
  Mac at 80% with KO Punch vs Fox at 25% means we're both at KO range.
• Jab / D-tilt -> Rising Uppercut KO's Fox as early as 75% on Final Destination.

Positives:

• His counter can be baited to frame-trap him. Feels like a boxing match doing this, go in, go out... This in mind, Fox does better vs Mac by playing defensively, baiting him to use one of his moves and then punishing it. Just like Little Mac can juggle Fox, Fox can do the same to Little Mac and keep him in the air.
• Against Little Mac, Fox actually has an offstage gimp with N-air if he attempts to Side-B recover.
• D-smash KO's him at ~80%, earlier than U-smash, because of the horizontal knockback it sends him offstage in.
  
• If Little Mac's Rising Uppercut doesn't sweetspot the ledge, so Fox can sit by the ledge, shield the hits, and D-smash him right after the last hit to send him to his doom.

 

[Foster J.]

I'll start this by saying that Toon Link is a matchup I don't have much experience with in this game (Jakat is the only Toronto Toon Link I've played).

Reading the comments here though, seems like the MU hasn't changed much from Brawl and remains even (or close to). Has the MU really changed that much from Brawl -> Smash 4 to give Toon Link a small advantage, @ Foster J. ? Insta z-drop is pretty nice, but it certainly doesn't replace the freedom he had in Brawl with bomb dropping literally whenever he wanted.

Also, I did notice when playing Jakat that Toon Link's bonk-erang was stopping my attempts at recovery with Side-B. That thing is massive, definitely great for controlling space and keeping characters out.

Well, I just think that the bombs are a real pain in the ass, which is why I gave the advantage to Tlink, cause it can force you to shield or reflect which leads to a punishment option. But that's the worst case scenario, in where Fox doesn't get up close an personal.

But as for the instant Zair, lets see he does that, you block the Zair tether attack, the bomb hits the ground and hits you, he would then likely be able to land and do a running Usmash depending on the %, cause bombs have nice hitlag on them. I've fallen to this trap a few times.

I'm just a negatively biased about this one, as I know Yacka would bomb me until I figure out how to approach.
And that boomerang is just annoying as heck.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I just think that the bombs are a real pain in the ***, which is why I gave the advantage to Tlink, cause it can force you to shield or reflect which leads to a punishment option. But that's the worst case scenario, in where Fox doesn't get up close an personal.

But as for the instant Zair, lets see he does that, you block the Zair tether attack, the bomb hits the ground and hits you, he would then likely be able to land and do a running Usmash depending on the %, cause bombs have nice hitlag on them. I've fallen to this trap a few times.

I'm just a negatively biased about this one, as I know Yacka would bomb me until I figure out how to approach.
And that boomerang is just annoying as heck.

Shielding is very good against TL. We don't have many options to deal with shield honestly. Also, the jab pressures are something i forgot to include for ya. We can't do much about that.

 

[M@v]

A couple quick tidbits:

-Don't forget you can instantly cancel shine with either a spotdodge, jump, or roll if your reflector reflects a projectile. You can use this in the Link/TL matchups to react quicker after reflecting a projectile.

-Mac can actually 0-death fox if mac has a KO punch. I'm pretty positive fox can get stuck in dtilt until KO punch KO range from 0, so watch it. I also don't think fox is that amazing vs mac, especially without customs. Its probably even to 6:4 Fox. My reasoning is because the way you beat mac is by engaging him off stage, and Fox's weak spot in smash 4 is effective edgeguarding tools off stage. Unlike a lot of characters, he doesn't have many moves to go out after people effectively. Your best tools against mac will be Nair, Shine (Yes, shine spiking actually works in this matchup!) and dsmash on the ledge. I'm not saying its AWFUL, as mac is one of the easiest characters to edgeguard in smash history, but Fox still has a harder time with it than most of the cast. Go for nair/shine/a counter bait when he's recovering horizontally; bair isn't needed in this mu. Nair is faster and has enough power to knock him out of recovery range. As for vertical, Shield next to the ledge and downsmash if he doesn't space properly. If you are using customs, either use laser 2 and snipe him while he's offstage to kill his momentum, or if you are using laser 3, shoot it to intercept him; one should be enough to gimp him as well.

P.S. Stickying this as it'll be the main matchup thread for the time being.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So..... I have to wait a long time before we can talk about my mains? ;_;
(Kirby, Peach-Secondary-Jigglypuff, Zelda, and to a lesser extent, Yoshi)

 

[luke_atyeo]

whats the actual percent that KO punch kills, I heard it kills above 1%


With little mac, platform camping and juggling him (with frame traps and stuff) are the best things you can do against him, fighting him head on is tough.

 

[M@v]

Stage dependent its closer to 20ish%. Its rare for it to kill below 20 unless its a lower ceiling. Up angled fsmash (I believe its up angled, may be down) to ko punch is a true combo as well, and usually kills, because fsmash does close to 20%

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It does about 35 damage correct?
When I got hit with it while I was Peach, it really only sent me up about half way, and I believe I was at 0
Soooo....... The KS is very high.... Or it's BK is very high

 

[DEHF]

Fox vs. Little Mac is in Fox's favor, it's either 55-45 or 60-40, but probably 60-40. Little Mac has great kill power and a good neutral good, but he can't follow up or juggle nearly as well as Fox can, plus there's a good possibility of gimping him. Little Mac's saving grace is that he can kill significantly earlier than Fox can.

Toon Link vs. Fox is about evenish, maybe slightly in Fox's favor. Toon Link can combo Fox pretty hard and can also edge guard him very well. Fox can do the same thing, but has the possibility of killing early and can get jab jab up smash.

Link vs. Fox is at least 60-40 Fox's favor. Similar to Toon Link except you can combo him significantly harder and edge guard him better. He's one of the characters that Fox destroys with his jabs.

 

[M@v]

Don't forget link has that jab combo on fox too though . Granted I forget the percents it works at and its infinitely harder to do than Fox's jab cancels.

 

[Skarfelt]

I had the chance to play against Yackabean for a while in the Fox-Toon Link matchup. I'm pretty sure this matchup is more 50-50 - Toon Link has a few things that are quite bad for us (floatiness makes him hard to combo, up tilt strings) but we can still rack up damage and KO him fairly easily. Tink's an easy character for us to edgeguard and Fox's awesome mobility makes it easier for us to avoid projectiles than for the rest of the cast.

As for Link, this is solidly in Fox's favour. Not sure what numbers but he has no real option out of our combos, his projectles are all too slow to be of real concern and all of his good KO options are super laggy. Link doesn't really have much answer to grabs, shields and Nair pressure.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I had the chance to play against Yackabean for a while in the Fox-Toon Link matchup. I'm pretty sure this matchup is more 50-50 - Toon Link has a few things that are quite bad for us (floatiness makes him hard to combo, up tilt strings) but we can still rack up damage and KO him fairly easily. Tink's an easy character for us to edgeguard and Fox's awesome mobility makes it easier for us to avoid projectiles than for the rest of the cast.

As for Link, this is solidly in Fox's favour. Not sure what numbers but he has no real option out of our combos, his projectles are all too slow to be of real concern and all of his good KO options are super laggy. Link doesn't really have much answer to grabs, shields and Nair pressure.

What I would imagine Link does have is the range and power in his attacks? Though yea the fact his projectiles are slow, while your one Of the fastest ground characters that can apply quick pressure, and you even have a reflector that when you reflect something you instantly can dodge or do something else....... Yea.... It seems to be in fox's favor.

 

[DavemanCozy]

KO Punch at the center of Battlefield KOs Fox as early as 20% iirc, while on Halberd it KO's as early as 16% iirc. And yes, D-tilt x2 -> KO Punch is a 0 to death on Fox.

Regarding the Mac MU again, I'm reading all this and it seems like the matchup is about even. If either characters have an advantage, it's probably not very significant.
Fox can juggle Mac better, and he can successfully gimp him offstage. Mac has a significantly easier time KOing than Fox, and he can keep up with him in the ground.

Regarding Link's jabs: His jab will lock us at 65%, and that's if he's perfect with it. Our jabs, on the other hand, will trap him at 40%.

On the Link MU, 60:40 in Fox's favour sounds right to me, not because of the jabs but also because of how he is juggling food for Fox.
Toon Link being evenish or 55:45 in our favour sounds right to me as well, this is an MU I would like to try more often.

I'll update the OP and put current impressions in parentheses. All this input so far is awesome!

On Monday we'll start discussion for

 

[luke_atyeo]

Yeah I hang out with and play with the guy who did all the testing for links jab nonsense, 65% is perfect frames, but realistically around 80-90% is when you can actually do it consistently.
Rather then a damage builder is more of a kill setup on against fox.

 

[Foster J.]

Is it monday yet?

 

[DavemanCozy]

The Fox vs Link MU could easily become a very silly battle of jab nonsense, lol.

Is it monday yet?

I literally just updated it, lol.

A new week, new discussions. Following Timber's schedule, we are moving on to these characters (lab animal battles edition):
vs
vs
vs

Imo, here's my thoughts on Yoshi:
50:50 (possibly 45:55 in Yoshi's favor)

Yoshi struggles with characters that can swat him out of the air, which is something we don't do as well. Fox is capable of doing that with reverse B-airs (and N-airs at high %), but this isn't easy for Fox to do as Yoshi's air game is no joke.

Fox being a light character, shielding one of Yoshi's high knockback attacks means we are going to be in shieldstun and getting pushed back. Near the ledge, this can be trouble. A long travelling dash attack and eggs also mean Fox needs to watch out from a distance. The eggs got buffed this game, they now dip lower and control space better.

Yoshi can get out of pressure very well with N-air. His air mobility is also amazing, Fox can't really challenge it and needs to opt for chasing him through the ground instead. That said, this is how Fox keeps up with Yoshi, as long as he is aware of his aerials (specially the long-lasting N-air and shield-eating D-air) and spaces correctly, Fox can keep up with him with U-airs, B-airs, his own N-air, and F-airs. Fox's F-smash and running U-smash are effective for punishing mispaced attacks by Yoshi too. EDIT: dash attack too, though again, need to watch out for his aerials.

I'll contribute my thoughts on the two DKs later through the week, busy today.

An aside: we will go back to discuss previous characters once the schedule is over, particularly those which need more discussion (Little Mac seems like he will need further discussion).

 

[M@v]

Okay, I actually have a lot of experience with one of these mus; so I'll go into that one first.

vs
I'll start by saying I have a ton experience in this mu for how long the game's been out. I have 2 local dk players in my area, and have been playing the one every week now, especially with customs . I've also played Will both online and offline(at apex), customs on and off. As an FYI, this matchup is a whole new beast with customs on.

I'll start with customs off, but I'll focus more on the customs on segment. Main thing you have to watch for is DK's range. He's going to outrange you (except bairs, jabs, and ftilts to space you out), and he has super armor on his giant punch and upb b. Watch for down b's range too; its a lot larger than it looks. It can also break shield extremely fast so if you try shielding it, don't hold it for very long at all. Jump and get out of there. I feel fox straight up out classes DK otherwise. You have to respect DK's upb, so its hard to get an edge guard without customs. You can lay some heavy combos on dk, and abuse double jab cancelling. He can upb out of some combos if you stretch it TOO far (i.e. going for too many uptilts in an uptilt chain). Side b to up air is a very effective kill combo to use on DK.

It essentially comes down to if you can beat out DK's spacing. That's his advantage on you. Watch out for super armor kills (super armoring through your approach to kill you with giant punch), among others. With out customs, this is 6:4 Fox's advantage, possibly more.

Now comes the fun part, customs.

Surprisingly, I don't think the matchup ratio changes all that much, but the way you play the matchup sure as heck does. I'll start off by saying my recommended loadout for DK is my standard 3132. Laser 3 and upb 3 become vital here. Abuse charged lasers. DK is such a big hurtbox its hard for him to get around them. You can also get early kills, or force early upbs from dk if you are aggressive with them while he is off stage, putting you either a stock up or in an advantaged situation to get the kill or more damage. Experiment with ways to land Fox's upb on dk. Its near impossible for him to DI out once hit, and it kills ridiculously early. Up b to cover ledge options, from platforms and curve into him, etc. As always, gotta be careful though because you can get punished hard/potentially die if he shields the whole thing. Its high risk/high reward in this matchup; treat it as such. Wind shine can get out of a couple tight spots if done right thanks to the windbox, and he has no projectiles so you won't be reflecting with it. Normal shine is an ok substitution if you prefer it.

DK's customs. Oh boy. Let's address the elephant in the room right now. He has one of the most busted moves in smash history imo, the Upb with the windbox. And this is coming from the guy who has dealt with both Brawl MK's shuttle loop and Melee Fox's shine. If it isn't the dumbest move, its up there with those two. I need to get game play videos of it in action to show you how good this move is, because words won't do it justice. I'll try at least. This upb has an enormously powerful windbox in it that will either send you flying towards dk or flying away from him if you are doing anything but shielding. Its very strong and can kill. The only fully safe option I've found against it so far is predicting it before it comes out, and shielding during the whole move. If you are not shielding, but not being hit by dk's arms, you will still get affected by the windboxes a very large distance away. Its only other holes is that it actually only has 2 physical hits; at the start and at the end, and it has no super armor(HUGE). This means you can hit him in the middle of the move after the first hitbox has already come out. I've upaird dk out of the move a couple times after getting sucked into it. All I can really recommend vs this move is to hold your shield during the whole thing. If you get sucked in or think you will, be very careful and be ready to recover back to stage, REGARDLESS WHERE YOU WERE. I mean that. This move can potentially suck you straight off the stage or fling you under it pending where you are. DO NOT CHALLENGE IT OFF STAGE. YOU WILL LOSE. Shoot lasers at it (whichever one you have equipped) That's all you should be doing. Only ever try challenging it if you are both on stage, and even then I would recommend against it, at least until you get an idea of how the windboxes on it work.

Other customs you may run into:
-A slower side b that has super armor and breaks shields. Simple here. Make sure you are looking out for it, otherwise you are probably dead. Its really easy to punish if you predict it/see it coming out though. Its DK's high risk/High reward move in this matchup.
-Wind box DK punch. This punch shoots out a powerful hitbox in the direction of the punch. DK will likely use it to either edgeguard you (think how mario uses his FLUDD) or to throw off your movement/groove.

There are even more then that, but i need to sit down and analyze all of their properties. I'll need to get videos u

I still rate this ratio at 6:4 Fox even with customs enabled, but if you do not know how to deal with DK's customs, you're going to lose.

I'll get to the other Kong and Yoshi later.

 

[Timbers]

(customs off)

Yoshi

50:50 (possibly 45:55 in Yoshi's favor)

I'm honestly a bit surprised to see this. I've seen a handful claim that Yoshi is one of Fox's hardest MU's. I certainly feel like he's top 4/5 hardest MU's for Fox. Perhaps slightly off topic, but do you feel similarly here? I can't imagine that one of Fox's hardest MU's is a modest 50:50.

Character may as well not have a disadvantage state vs Fox, with eggs, ridiculous airspeed/B-reverse eggs, nair. This makes it extremely hard to follow up on Yoshi sometimes. Eggs also force approaches very well, which is not an easy task when Yoshi weaves like crazy. This is readily apparent at lower percents where Yoshi can punish your DA, like your only real approach option, on hit with nair. I don't know, this MU makes me feel so jipped sometimes lol. Yoshi's incredible airspeed can really destroy and punish an airborne Fox. Attempts at nair/bair crossups can be intercepted by Yoshi down-B/nair. Nair and jabs in general just sort of beat out everything that Fox can do close up (Fox utilt is a good option at higher percents. At lower percents you risk negative frames and can be nair punished on hit). No jab cancels. Jab flurry gets broken by nair.

Back to Yoshi's airspeed, it makes it a free reset to ledge, making landing the killing blow much harder. Yoshi is not a great character when it comes to kill setups, but even Fox makes Yoshi look like a good kill character. Fair/nair destroy Fox's recovery options. Yoshi sh fair setup for low % uair kills. Usmash is a respectable OoS/anti-air option for Yoshi, and all around is probably just a better Fox usmash.

Yoshi is also one of the few characters where I'd keep him away from Battlefield. Yoshi usmash hits bottom BF platforms (and SV platform, for that matter). There's also no real opportunities to frametrap him on platforms with that super armored double jump + airspeed.

I don't know, nothing about this MU tells me "it's even." Fox can still rack damage provided Fox reads Yoshi's movement and defensive options. It's just a lot more work to accomplish the same things that Yoshi gets to abuse much more liberally.

I'm still hesitant to place numbers on Fox's disadvantageous MUs, as even Fox's hardest MUs are far from impossible, but I certainly don't see this MU being outright even. This MU will likely carry on as a harder MU for Fox in the roster. I know @ Sinister Slush briefly touched on this MU in another thread, so I'd like to hear a more in depth analysis from a competent Yoshi main providing they have time.

Diddy Kong

This will probably be a bit more brief as Diddy should be a more common MU for most people. When I mentioned that Yoshi was one of Fox's harder MU's, I think that Diddy is harder. Not to be confused with "Diddy is OP" by any means, but a lot of Fox's flaws are made apparent against Diddy. Diddy fair and dtilt being notable safe options at keeping Fox out. Fox struggles at keeping Diddy off of him, and Fox is not the safest on shield, yielding 20-30% in damage, and uthrow -> uair killing Fox at ~60% due to being a light fastfaller. Fox disliking quick combobreakers is made very apparent here when that combobreaker is a uair that starts combos and kills early. Edgeguarding is made easy for Diddy with meaty fairs intercepting Fox's sideB, and Fox upB may as well be death. Diddy ledgetraps are bonkers, I feel it's notable to mention that Fox has terrible options at covering his front, so there is very little risk in contesting any of Fox's getup options, especially with a banana on the ledge.

We do get our jab cancels that are usually safe (that uair...), and getting a successful DA/sideB leads to great pressuring opportunities. However, our mixup options reap much less reward than Diddy's with significant risk associated with them. I feel like sideB needs to be relied on here as an approach option, as it's (unfortunately) one of our safer options in this MU, and Fox can't get anything going against Diddy until he's in the air. I think the biggest thing to learn about this MU is taking special care to follow Diddy's sideB habits to escape pressure and punish accordingly. It's one of Diddy's very few moves that can be punished, and you need all you can get.

Again, hesitant to put numbers on this, but I'd drop Diddy somewhere in the Top 3 hardest MU's for Fox. I know Larry ( @ DEHF ) has a lot of experience in the Diddy MU, and if time provides I'd love to hear personal thoughts on the MU.

Donkey Kong

Probably not enough experience to accurately gauge this MU. DK has respectable tools when grounded, but jab cancels eat him up, and he's free as hell once airborne. Respect bair and target all of his other blindspots. Lots of room for error on setting up frametraps as DK's options when beneath him are pathetic.

Not much else to say on DK. He's the typical "heavy" that Fox does well against. Lacking punishing moves when airborne and his closerange options are incredibly mediocre. Easily advantageous for Fox. 60:40/65:35.

 

[Big O]

I haven't played against Fox with customs, but without customs I think Fox has a notable advantage in the MU. Fox's punish and combo game are pretty devastating against DK and DK has a hard time getting Fox off of him when Fox goes in. Fox also seems pretty short, which makes SH Bair not as useful. The only thing keeping DK from getting bodied for free is the fact that his raw power makes the few times he lands a solid hit very scary for lightweights like Fox. The fact that Fox falls fast also makes him easier to combo with Utilt/Uair and Cargo Utoss > Uair. DK's best bet in the MU is to outspace him with your superior range and try to force him offstage.

With customs I think it would probably shift the MU closer to even. Kong Cyclone demands respect, and having something that he has to respect opens up a lot of options for you. Another thing I think is pretty good is the fire Down B custom since it shuts down SH approaches and is a KO move at like 110% against Fox. More aggressive DK's might opt for the electric punch for a safe and semi-spammable KO move against rushdown characters like Fox.

With customs I feel DK is allowed a lot more breathing room which makes his spacing game more complete. I don't really know how good Fox's customs are (I've only played around with the 3rd neutral B which is pretty cool), but I doubt they have more impact on the MU than DK's.

Overall I'd say 6:4 Fox's advantage without customs and either 5:5 or 55:45 Fox's advantage with customs.

 

[luke_atyeo]

to add on to what mav said about dk's horse**** custom upB, the kong-nado, if the dk lands as soon as the move ends he has no end lag, the most common time you see this is dk using the move and landing on a platform (for instance if he is on the ledge, he can upB off the ledge onto a platform and be un-punishable more or less) keep an eye out for this, if you try to punish it most likely you will be the one getting hit (and probably killed) the only time you should really go for a hard punish is if dk does it on a flat stage.
For this reason, if you are in a customs allowed meta and you are against DK, you should ABSOLUTELY strike/ban battlefield no matter what. seriously dont even try to fight him there, just dont, the platforms do so much more for him than you its ridiculous.

 

[Timbers]

Customs DK is outright dumb. Kong Cyclone is obviously terrifying. The windbox alone has flung me from the edge of the stage into the bottom corner of the blastzone. To a much lesser extent, Hot Hands(?) and Tornado Punch(?) are ridiculous as well. Hot hands is like a better, more terrifying flamethrower in that it covers all of Fox's get-up options for free with the added benefit of killing Fox at 80-90%. The windbox on the punch has HUGE vertical range, hitting (slightly) beneath stage level. This pushes your sideB away from the ledge if timed properly, and forces Fox to upB, which can get you spiked easily. This may be a MU where I would consider Wolf Flash for that reason.

 

[Skarfelt]

Not gonna talk about DK because I'm nowhere near as familiar with is as I'd have to be to confidently give any assessment.

Yoshi
To me, this is our hardest MU. Timbers covered it quite well further up but it just feels like Yoshi beats out every single option Fox has with something... better. The only way you're winning this MU is if you're a substantially better player than your opponent. Yoshi's Nair breaks out of every combo and all our other aerials are useless outside of hard reads. He has more kill setups, is harder to edgeguard, is heavier, has a nonexistent disadvantage state and forces approaches with eggs so Fox can't just sit back and laser camp either.

The matchup isn't unwinnable but I don't see how a Fox and a Yoshi of identical skill levels will ever go in Fox's favour. It's not like Little Mac or heavies like Bowser where you have to play a really safe, patient playstyle and abuse certain aspects of your kit or something - there are no big punishes in this MU. You convert a mistake Yoshi makes into 10% or so and he converts your mistakes into a stock.


Diddy Kong
I don't really agree with Timbers here, though. Unlike the other cheesy top tiers like Sheik, Yoshi, Rosalina and so on, Fox can just play a normal game against Diddy and do general Fox-y things. The biggest problem is Diddy's downight unfair kill pressure with Uair killing stupidly early but the neutral is far from unwinnable against him. Fox can pick up bananas and pressure with them incredibly well. I don't feel like recovery's too much of an issue if you aim below the lip and let magnetic edges do their magic - if anything, one of our biggest advantages in this MU is just how easy it is for Fox to actually edgeguard Diddy. If he ends up low from a Down Smash, dropping down and nairing him is basically a guaranteed kill. I believe SHFF Dair (oos or whatever else) is true into a PP Down Smash and can even KO Diddy if he's near the edge but I haven't had a chance to apply this in-game.

I dunno. Sometimes I feel this MU is perfectly fine but then sometimes Diddy lands one grab and KOs me at like 2% and I want to throw my controller into a wall. Bit hesitant to put a number on it because of that.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I said a bunch in the competitive impressions thread if timber wants to link it.

I can see Jab and Nair being annoying for fox, but two moves shouldn't make the MU feel like a 35:65 for you guys. Only Diddy is allowed to do that.
We do not have kill set ups. Where are people getting this info? Our "best" chance for a kill set up is basically Dthrow to Uair and hope they're not smart enough to simply jump away, for a fast faller like Fox we're definitely not getting that.
Even jab to Usmash isn't guaranteed like it was with Brawl (including DownB from previous iteration)


Just wanna say if you execute jab resets and U tilts right, we should almost never get Nair off on you, and even if we do. You can bait it out after one or two Utilts and shield as soon as you stop using the move since we're obviously mashing our panic button to swat you away.
Yoshi isn't hard to edgeguard too, if you see him using egg toss off stage either just simply reflect it or even go off stage with him and punish during his cooldown frames with literally anything. Even footstool is still a good option.

I'm not entirely sure why Fox, a fast character, is complaining about our Egg toss. Just simply run under us and smack us lol
If you don't feel like it, run forward as if you're gonna go in then back, we'll most likely throw our long wind up fair out and hit nothing since you ran back, it gives another chance to hit us if you were too **** to hit us during our egg toss.
When our only kill moves are vertical, and the fact no kill set ups into them. Dunno how this can feel like a disadvantage MU. Our Nair doesn't even reliably kill like it did in brawl anymore and fishing for Fair kills isn't safe.

I don't really see us ever landing Uair on a fast faller + with air dodge being much much faster in this game, Usmash is telegraphed and incredibly easy to punish if you click one single button that was also buffed in this game, Shield.
DownB is unsafe as well, if you manage to Perfect shield the first hit, we're not getting a shieldbreak and that just gives you another way to punish us. Even then, Perfect shield first hit or not, we still don't manage to break them anyways unless you held shield before we even threw out the move.
19% damage move with 20 Shield damage = 39
Shields have 50 health.


It just feels like a MU where neither character can land a killing blow unless they pull it off from a hard read. If you're allowing Yoshi to toss even two eggs from short hops without doing anything but standing at the edge of the stage afraid of a 1/6% projectile than you're honestly a lost cause.
It's basically whoever throws out a wrong laggy move first, and who will get the punish after it wins the match.

Dunno how or who would be using DownB airborne while getting juggled from Fox. Infact, I've had myself hit out of downB from your nair more than the other way around.

I don't even wanna comment on the no disadvantageous state to be completely honest... if other Yoshi mains feel like talking about this since I linked them twice yesterday and once now. Then godspeed.

 

[DavemanCozy]

To be honest, I used to complain a lot about the Yoshi MU, but lately I haven't found it to be that bad. I have played it with Seel from Canada.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that this is an MU where you have to be constantly looking for Yoshi's Nair, Fair, and quick jabs, since Yoshi can interrupt us easily.

I'll edit this post with more to add later, busy atm

Nvm, just read Slush's post, especially the part about baiting nairs.

Oh, and about DownB: it can be used by Yoshi if he is high enough and sees Fox committing to the follow up too hard, but that also means you gotta know when your opponent is too high for you to follow safely in the air for that air attack.

 

[Se7enSB]

@ DavemanCozy - I saw your message asking the Diddy Kong boards for input, so I'll share a few thoughts.

(Hoo Hah)I'll start off with the notorious "Hoo Hah". Make sure you DI down and away from the down throw, this simple note will prevent you from taking 20-30%, the worst thing you will get hit by is a Bair or a Fair. This piece of advice will go a long way, because inexperienced Fox players don't DI correctly so they end up eating many many "Hahs".

Neutral (1/2)In Neutral the standard Diddy Kong will mindlessly pull out a banana and shield, wanting you to respond by attacking so they can throw banana OoS and punish. HOWEVER, this is completely beatable. If the Diddy shields first, you will win easily because Diddy's shield will deplete before yours. If you expect the Diddy to throw it before shield depletes you can spotdodge banana or get hit by it. Now against mindless opponents getting hit can be a good thing because they Diddy may run in for the grab, getup attack will knock him back and should give you time to grab the banana however this is not recommended since the Diddy can just Shieldgrab the getup attack if he's smart.

Neutral (2/2) Against higher leveled opponents you will notice immediately we will not go for banana, we will bait you because we know you want to come in and wreck our face. When you get in capitalize HARD. Whether it's Nair > Utilt strings or Grab > Fair, you should intimidate the Diddy Kong and bait back. You will still get grabbed and hit with an aerial because it's free damage and there's nothing that makes us happier than free damage. Utilize Jab 1 and jab 2, make sure you do cancels such as J1,J1,J2,J1,J1,J2. Use jab 3 > finisher when you need Diddy off of you since it's one of the hardest jabs to escape from.

(Punishing) I don't think you guys realize how intimidating your punishes can be. Usmash OoS is spooky, and your Uair is amazing. Fsmash does damage and you even have Dsmash (not recommended unless you are punishing a up b). Now our punishes are infamous which involve grabs but with the DI I mentioned earlier you really take off a lot of damage.

(Edgeplay) If you are on the edge a smart diddy will throw banana very close to cover your getup and getup attack, if you try and jump it can be stuffed with a meaty fair and then be on edge again with no invincibility. That's a super bad position.

(Stages) Stages with low ceilings may be good for you but are amazing for Diddy as well. Expect to get killed by Uair mad early. If you choose a stage with close horizontal blastzones our fair and bthrow will kill you mad early. I want to say Battlefield is your best bet since you can platform camp, which extends your combos and allows you to platform camp.

I hope this is enough guys.

 

[Yikarur]

Fox probably beats Yoshi sightly. But no one can play the MU properly.

 

[luke_atyeo]

if you try and jump it can be stuffed with a meaty fair and then be on edge again with no invincibility. That's a super bad position

are you sure about that? I'm pretty certain that if you get hit after leaving the ledge (but dont get to touch the ground) you still get your ledge invincibility back.

 

[Yikarur]

the knowledge about this game seems to be on a very interesting level.
If you get hit you always get invincibility back.

 

[DEHF]

Don't know anything about the DK match up, that being said, it's probably 6-4 Fox's favor.

Yoshi I have basic amount of knowledge about the character and match up. I think Fox Yoshi is 6-4 Yoshi's favor. I think the match up is fairly even onstage, except I think Yoshi is slightly better at juggling Fox and can live slightly longer, but Fox makes up for it with a better neutral game. I think Yoshi has a clear advantage when it comes to edge guarding mainly because of his air mobility and eggs.

Fox Diddy probably is 6-4 Diddy's favor, maybe worse. Fox beats Diddy in the neutral game as well as in juggling, but Diddy just beats Fox in everything else. if you get grabbed at about 70ish percent up throw up air true combos and will kill, if Diddy is in rage you can die even earlier. at higher percents you can get kill set ups on Diddy with jab jab up tilt up air or jab jab dsmash on the edge.

 

[G-Sword]

Fox vs. Little Mac is in Fox's favor, it's either 55-45 or 60-40, but probably 60-40. Little Mac has great kill power and a good neutral good, but he can't follow up or juggle nearly as well as Fox can, plus there's a good possibility of gimping him. Little Mac's saving grace is that he can kill significantly earlier than Fox can.

Toon Link vs. Fox is about evenish, maybe slightly in Fox's favor. Toon Link can combo Fox pretty hard and can also edge guard him very well. Fox can do the same thing, but has the possibility of killing early and can get jab jab up smash.

Link vs. Fox is at least 60-40 Fox's favor. Similar to Toon Link except you can combo him significantly harder and edge guard him better. He's one of the characters that Fox destroys with his jabs.

im late but yea Fox does have the advantage over little mac. little mac cant do much when fox is playing a good defensive game. of course you have to be smart about what you are doing and time your attacks right to punish little mac. but just know that mac cant do squat outside of just his ground game. shield heavy and run around alot, even bait him with a laser or two if hes just standing around. mac did give me trouble in the beginning but once i got use to his movements and took full advantage of Fox's superior defensive to punish game (hands down the best in the game) the match up is pretty easy to me now.

diddy kong is a tough match up. the main thing to worry about is the grab. dont be careless with how you are attacking him. try to punish diddy kong for using grabs. short hop, dash dancing.... try to mind fox him to whiff out attacks and punish him for doing it. you know the two moves all diddy's are going to use the most are Uair and grabs. use Uthrow on him to get a Uair on him since his Dair takes time to come out and he will have to air dodge if you are right underneath which you can bait him, follow up with another attack or get a Usmash. if you get him off the stage and he is trying to uB back jump off the stage and gimp him.