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Advanced Techniques - Ledge Nade and Ledge Flip

Jackson

Smash Lord
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Alexandria, Virginia
- THE TECHNIQUES -

Hey guys: I've found new advanced techs that I'm very excited about. Here's the deal: When you run off the ledge and Side B the opposite direction, Shiek will throw the burst nade and then IMMEDIATELY grab the ledge. You're already out of lag as the nade explodes, free to get up however you want. To sweeten the deal, you can also perform this after a ledge drop, which is much more useful: drop, jump, and side B quickly without landing on the stage. You should grab ledge and be free to recover. It's awesome. The input isnt all that easy though... when doing the onstage version, if you side B too far from the ledge, you're dead, and if you side B too early you're lagging with it onstage. For the ledge drop version, if you Side B too late you just fall past the ledge and die. The timing is strict. I found that you kind of want to DI a bit away from the edge as you jump to grab it consistently. Also note that to do nade instead of Bouncing Fish you need to move the control pad COMPLETELY to the side. If it's even slightly downwards, you get Down B, which happens often. This should be much easier on Wii U with a GC controller. I call this tech the Ledge Nade.

Speaking of Down B, this tech works with Down B as well! If you do Bouncing Fish back onto the stage the MOMENT you drop off it, Shiek will do a sort of cartwheel to a standing position when she lands instead of having to get back up normally. The lag reduction here is very significant. Note that when performing this technique Sheik will NOT hurt your opponent unlike normal Bouncing Fish, she will pass through them. And guess what? Just like Side B, you can perform this off of a ledge drop as well. Drop down, jump, and Down B. You should do a nice little flip onto the stage, ready to act after a split second. Something important is that the length of your flip onto the stage seems to be determined by whether your Down B brushes the ledge or not. Doing Bouncing Fish close to the ledge should give you the short version. Also, you will wall jump if your down B hits the ledge, which can be another mixup in itself. I call this Ledge Flip, and I feel that this is an awesome movement option from the ledge, It's kind of a slightly laggier but longer (if you want) version of ledgedashing in melee. I'll go as far as to say this might be our preferred ledge recovery method as it is so versatile.

- APPLICATIONS AND NOTES -

A great application in my opinion is combining these two techs. When on the ledge, Ledge Nade, regrab, then Ledge Flip, You can flip right into the explosion. This seems virtually unpunishable. Another option after Ledge Nading is to do a normal, laggy Down B that will have damage/knockback.

The Ledge Nade may also kill a high % opponent who isn't ready for it.

Something really cool looking you can do using the Down B wall jump is to run off the ledge, Down B to it, wall jump, hit A to knock a recovering opponent back, and then up B to safety.

Suggested by @ Tristan_win Tristan_win , you can do run off Side B to create a sort of " explosion wall" for recovering opponents to land onto. If you jump before side B the explosion will be off the ground a bit.

To use the nades to edgeguard out over the blast zone, hop past the ledge, side B, and grab ledge. This produces a similar effect to normal Ledge Nades except the explosion is past the edge instead of onstage.

Pressing left or right during the Down B controls how far it goes. The max distance is almost half of FD, and the shortest distance is practically in place. Manipulating distance with Ledge Flips can produce differing effects such as grabbing the ledge or going very far onto the stage (about a quarter of FD from runoff Ledge Flip).

You can Ledge Nade from edge but throw the Nade over the blast zone and regrab. This makes for an effective edge guard and forces opponents to either recover high or low.

- CLOSER -

Try Ledge Nade/Flip (that's what i'm gonna call 'em since I discovered them) out, I feel that these techs are amazing and will be incredibly useful. The tough part will be getting the timing down. Remember to give me credit (my name/tag is Jackson). :bee: Tell me what you guys think. I'll do further experimenting with Shiek and post other things if I find out anything cool. Also, I will update this post as we discover more about these techniques.
 
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Tristan_win

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You could also use this outwards to make a sort of side B wall for your opponents recoveries to run into or be force to go around. The coolest thing is if your quick enough (and you didn't just grab the ledge for the first time) you can even let go of the ledge, jump and bair before the grenade even explodes.

Canceling the lag on side B is going to be a lot of fun.
 
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Wasserwipf

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Tried that out relly quickly, noticed some things.
The "Ledge Nade" seems kinda cool, but I don't see this beeing too useful.
However, if you dont reverse it (throw the nade away from the stage) it will kill you always. At least, I wasn't able to regrab the stage. Shothop side-B however does the deal.
Little sidenote here, I feel its easier to do the edgedrop nade thing, if you jump a little bit away from the stage and then input side-B to the other direction, I can't really get it if i jump up vertically.

The version after ledgedrop is actually pretty basic. After recovering, throwing a nade on stage and then recovering into it with the fish is actually pretty useful (combining your 2 techniques mentioned here) and does good damage.
About the runnoff-tournaround-fish, I don't see anything special here, it has the same effect if done in the air or stil on stage.
And the range alters the way it always does. If you do Down-B, it has its normal range, if you input down-B and then really fast press eiter left or right, you can alter the distance your going. useful for hitting close opponents or recovering a long distace...
But as mentioned, moving out of Edge drop isn't something new^^

Oh, and edgedrop-bouncing fish into the stage is quite cool, especially on stages like wilys castle, where you can fall down quite deep and capture opponents on different heigts. However, after a few tests i noticed, doing the wall-bounce instant will lead to the hitbox beeing around the same place as i you just did a normal edgedrop reverse bouncing fish. You'll just hit with the second instead of the first hit, i guess.

Something else i realized testing this, you can wavebounce (I think its wavebouncing) needles back onto the stage, after running off (you can also wavebounce away from the stage). The first looks incredibly cool, since you'll glide back onto the stage and start charching needles (can be reversed as well). This looks almost like wavedashing.
The latter could turn out to be a good edgeguard, you gain quite some falling speed (as well as some speed towards the direction you were running). Applying a turnaround to this, youre able to throw needels in both directions after leaving the stage, so you can cover many recoveries. However, i killed myself quite a bit trying this out, since you'll fall pretty quick.
I can also imagine those wavebounces being ridiculosly good on stages like battlefield, since they can be done onto platforms...

I hope thats all there is to it. Seems like Shiek hes a hell lot of tricks after running off the edge, hu?

EDIT: Sorry, I confused Wavebouncinf^g and reverse-B here (accoring to this). However, both should be possible anyway...
 
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Jackson

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
1,331
Location
Alexandria, Virginia
You could also use this outwards to make a sort of side B wall for your opponents recoveries to run into or be force to go around. The coolest thing is if your quick enough (and you didn't just grab the ledge for the first time) you can even let go of the ledge, jump and bair before the grenade even explodes.

Canceling the lag on side B is going to be a lot of fun.
Nice idea! I'll add that to "Applications". IMO this is the only true way to utilize Side B to its fullest.
 

Jackson

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
1,331
Location
Alexandria, Virginia
- THE TECHNIQUES -

Hey guys: I've found new advanced techs that I'm very excited about. Here's the deal: When you run off the ledge and Side B the opposite direction, Shiek will throw the burst nade and then IMMEDIATELY grab the ledge. You're already out of lag as the nade explodes, free to get up however you want. To sweeten the deal, you can also perform this after a ledge drop, which is much more useful: drop, jump, and side B quickly without landing on the stage. You should grab ledge and be free to recover. It's awesome. The input isnt all that easy though... when doing the onstage version, if you side B too far from the ledge, you're dead, and if you side B too early you're lagging with it onstage. For the ledge drop version, if you Side B too late you just fall past the ledge and die. The timing is strict. I found that you kind of want to DI a bit away from the edge as you jump to grab it consistently. Also note that to do nade instead of Bouncing Fish you need to move the control pad COMPLETELY to the side. If it's even slightly downwards, you get Down B, which happens often. This should be much easier on Wii U with a GC controller. I call this tech the Ledge Nade.

Speaking of Down B, this tech works with Down B as well! If you do Bouncing Fish back onto the stage the MOMENT you drop off it, Shiek will do a sort of cartwheel to a standing position when she lands instead of having to get back up normally. The lag reduction here is very significant. Note that when performing this technique Sheik will NOT hurt your opponent unlike normal Bouncing Fish, she will pass through them. And guess what? Just like Side B, you can perform this off of a ledge drop as well. Drop down, jump, and Down B. You should do a nice little flip onto the stage, ready to act after a split second. Something important is that the length of your flip onto the stage seems to be determined by whether your Down B brushes the ledge or not. Doing Bouncing Fish close to the ledge should give you the short version. Also, you will wall jump if your down B hits the ledge, which can be another mixup in itself. I call this Ledge Flip, and I feel that this is an awesome movement option from the ledge, It's kind of a slightly laggier but longer (if you want) version of ledgedashing in melee. I'll go as far as to say this might be our preferred ledge recovery method as it is so versatile.

- APPLICATIONS -

A great application in my opinion is combining these two techs. When on the ledge, Ledge Nade, regrab, then Ledge Flip, You can flip right into the explosion. This seems virtually unpunishable.

The Ledge Nade may also kill a high % opponent who isn't ready for it.

Something really cool looking you can do using the Down B wall jump is to run off the ledge, Down B to it, wall jump, hit A to knock a recovering opponent back, and then up B to safety.

Suggested by @ Tristan_win Tristan_win , you can do run off Side B to create a sort of " explosion wall" for recovering opponents to land onto.

- CLOSER -

Try Ledge Nade/Flip (that's what i'm gonna call 'em since I discovered them) out, I feel that these techs are amazing and will be incredibly useful. The tough part will be getting the timing down. Remember to give me credit (my name/tag is Jackson). :bee: Tell me what you guys think. I'll do further experimenting with Shiek and post other things if I find out anything cool. Also, I will update this post as we discover more about these techniques.
whoops, idk how this double post happened lol. Oh and @ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf , you said some interesting stuff. Ill add to the OP. Also, I think you were missing it a bit with the Ledge Flip. When you said the run-off Down B has the same effect as on stage or in the air... it's different. It's much quicker and has no hitbox.
 
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Wasserwipf

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Also, I think you were missing it a bit with the Ledge Flip. When you said the run-off Down B has the same effect as on stage or in the air... it's different. It's much quicker and has no hitbox.
Ok I checked again and I see what you did there. If you do the Bouncing fish the instant you leave the edge, the normal effect will occur, just like i said. How do I know I was off the stage? I look at the sparkels it generates. If youre offstage, they're offstage as well. However, if you wait a little bit longer with inputing the fish, the effect you described will occur. So you can basically do both.
The second can btw also be achievt by high hopping over the edge, and then using the fish a bit away an beyond the edge. This will cause you to land on the stage with shiek doing this cool standup animation. Its a matter of when in the animation of the fish you hit the ground. If you hit it with youre head, youll do the short varion (the one you described)
 

Jackson

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Alexandria, Virginia
Ok I checked again and I see what you did there. If you do the Bouncing fish the instant you leave the edge, the normal effect will occur, just like i said. How do I know I was off the stage? I look at the sparkels it generates. If youre offstage, they're offstage as well. However, if you wait a little bit longer with inputing the fish, the effect you described will occur. So you can basically do both.
The second can btw also be achievt by high hopping over the edge, and then using the fish a bit away an beyond the edge. This will cause you to land on the stage with shiek doing this cool standup animation. Its a matter of when in the animation of the fish you hit the ground. If you hit it with youre head, youll do the short varion (the one you described)
Yeah, we're on the same page now. Oh, and btw, can you remind me how to wavebounce? I don't really remember the input.
 
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Terramorphic

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Couldn't you use the ledge grenade in tandem with the new ledge mechanics? like, drop off as you use the side B, grab the ledge and knock the opponent off into the explosion?
 

Jackson

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Couldn't you use the ledge grenade in tandem with the new ledge mechanics? like, drop off as you use the side B, grab the ledge and knock the opponent off into the explosion?
I see where you're going, but the problem is that Side B will just pass the ledge and kill you if you dont grab the ledge during a certain part of it. That's why you have to ledge drop, jump and quickly side B, then regrab to not SD.
 
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choboco

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I really like the Ledge Flip tech. A variation I also like to use that I'm sure others have found is to do a Forward A instead of the Down B. So ledge grab, drop down, jump, followed by Forward A back onto the stage, and press A immediately for another Forward A (on the ground) with very little lag. If you time it right, you'll be on the platform and able to move almost immediately.
 
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Jackson

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I really like the Ledge Flip tech. A variation I also like to use that I'm sure others have found is to do a Forward A instead of the Down B. So ledge grab, drop down, jump, followed by Forward A back onto the stage, and press A immediately for another Forward A (on the ground) with very little lag. If you time it right, you'll be on the platform and able to move almost immediately.
That's an interesting way of returning, thanks for sharing with us.
 

Wasserwipf

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Yeah, we're on the same page now. Oh, and btw, can you remind me how to wavebounce? I don't really remember the input.
I edited my first post with this, since I actually mixed up wavebouncing and reverse-B (acc. to this post, like written above), but I'm pretty sure you can wavebounce and reverse B needles on / off the edge.
Another thing here, if you try to reverse-B back onto a plattform, you'll fall under it, landig ond the plattform below. However, this seems useful as well, just doesn't look as cool.
 

Jackson

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I edited my first post with this, since I actually mixed up wavebouncing and reverse-B (acc. to this post, like written above), but I'm pretty sure you can wavebounce and reverse B needles on / off the edge.
Another thing here, if you try to reverse-B back onto a plattform, you'll fall under it, landig ond the plattform below. However, this seems useful as well, just doesn't look as cool.
Ah, ok, I know how to B reverse from Brawl but it seems kinda difficult compared to Brawl at least with needles and on 3DS.

Edit: nvm I was Inputting turn around B lol.
 
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_Tree

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I was JUST about to make a post about this. You beat me to it :<

But yea, good write up. Glad this is on the boards.
 

Jackson

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So, I've tested Ledge Nades in For Glory. It is VERY useful. I can screw up people edge guarding me or make them shield, which opens thing up for a bouncing fish when they drop it. The run off ledge Nade is a cool defensive maneuver to use against approaches.

Only things to worry about when using it:

1. Self destructing. This will obviously improve over time until it doesn't happen at all.

2. People playing aggro right next to the ledge. They can hit you when you hop up and Nade. Also be careful with fast and powerful projectiles such as Aura sphere.

Ledge flip has also been useful as a movement technique.

Good luck using these techs, I highly reccomend incorporating them into your game.
 

Cura

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I really like this. I've put these to use several times in For Glory and they've been pretty useful. The forward A variation of the Ledge Flip is what I've been using most of the time.
I have SD'd a few times using it, but like you said, that will improve once I start to understand the timing better.
But yeah, thanks for posting this!
 

Jackson

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I really like this. I've put these to use several times in For Glory and they've been pretty useful. The forward A variation of the Ledge Flip is what I've been using most of the time.
I have SD'd a few times using it, but like you said, that will improve once I start to understand the timing better.
But yeah, thanks for posting this!
Sure man! I also feel that they are helpful and will only get better over time.
 

Necrojinsei

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I'm very much loving this technique, it's seemingly very useful when it comes to getting back on stage. One of the ways that I have found it useful is that if you are holding on or slightly below the edge you can wall jump into your side B allowing for you to throw the grenade and being able to reach the edge. It seems like a good technique to trick your opponents.

For instance you are on the edge and they want to edge guard you if they are to close you can press down and jump into an up air, or you can drop down, wall jump, side B and you will throw it cancel the lag and be able to follow up. This surprisingly works on both variations of Omega stages. I tested it on Whileys Castle and on Corneria, though one straight up and the other a curve you can wall jump into the side B with no problem. The only issue is that it is harder on the walled variants because you are more outward after the jump, the timing could be tricky but it will work if you time it right.
 

Jackson

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I'm very much loving this technique, it's seemingly very useful when it comes to getting back on stage. One of the ways that I have found it useful is that if you are holding on or slightly below the edge you can wall jump into your side B allowing for you to throw the grenade and being able to reach the edge. It seems like a good technique to trick your opponents.

For instance you are on the edge and they want to edge guard you if they are to close you can press down and jump into an up air, or you can drop down, wall jump, side B and you will throw it cancel the lag and be able to follow up. This surprisingly works on both variations of Omega stages. I tested it on Whileys Castle and on Corneria, though one straight up and the other a curve you can wall jump into the side B with no problem. The only issue is that it is harder on the walled variants because you are more outward after the jump, the timing could be tricky but it will work if you time it right.
Wall jumping into Ledge nade is pretty creative! That sounds cool.
 
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El Penguino

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I tried this out in training mode and tested a few things. After you throw the bomb you can hold up to make it easier to hold the ledge and if you hold down you are more likely to fall. Not sure if this actually works or not.

Mind if you guys tell me if its easier for you or if it's just me imagining things.
 
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Wasserwipf

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I noticed that youre able to move a bit upwards using side B (probably by holding up) thus you're able to grab the ledge easier. At the same time, if you press down, you'll probably fastfall what leads to suicide. So yes, you're probably right.
 

Tohfoo

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I don't like to repeat already said things, but these have been immensely useful, particularly ledge nades. Thanks Jackson.
 
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