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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Mister M

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Jul 18, 2013
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There was a Venn diagram floating around a whlie back that attempted to force characters into archetypes.

It had so many overlaps that nothing of value was really discerned. This isn't a very useful exercise
 

DanGR

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What the heck tweek?????

Anybody like to dissect this because all I see is over aggressive tweek getting his disadvantaged state heavily exploited by earth's ridiculous positional advantage game.
I'm impressed by how consistently Earth was able to punish small openings. Dsmash/dash attack are f5/f7 respectively. That f7 hitbox looks like it begins an entire roll distance away from Pit's original position... He really showcased what solid burst range tools can do for a character against someone without the same. They generally have higher risk to make up for the range and speed, but that doesn't matter if you're -that- consistent with them.

Also, Cloud doesn't have any safe, immediate hitboxes he can really challenge other hitboxes with when he's grounded, so every time he lands anywhere near Pit, uses an aerial, attacks, or anything and doesn't hit, he's at a huge disadvantage and has to gtfo. Earth was really slippery in setting up those situations without getting hit (great use of rolling), and he captilized well on Cloud's transitions thereafter.

If it were possible to find out, I'd be quite interested in seeing what Tweek's inputs were every time he got dsmashed or dash attacked.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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shulk is a dynamic zoner. you can't have hitboxes of that size and not be some variation of zoner. (same with corrin)
point 2 how well a character does at Thier archetype doesn't change what archetype they are. for example just because Roy has no combos doesnt make him not a rushdown character.
aso for the Mario debate the fact that we are even debating what he is means he's all around. optimal play in tournamenthe may favor one style but by design he is all around. he's the ryu in street fighter in this game. has a little of everything.
 

ParanoidDrone

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It seems people are calling Mario rushdown based on his ability to get in and string tons of hits together? I can sort of see that, but literally everyone wants to string hits together once they get in. It comes with the territory of being in a fighting game. I think it would be more accurate to consider a character's gameplan in the neutral, and see if it's flexible or if it's a one-trick pony.

Staying on Mario, he has the speed and frame data to rush in, apply pressure, and combo. He also has a projectile to keep his distance, a reflector to deal with enemy projectiles, and a frame 3 up special OOS. As a character, his design seems to be based around the idea of having a tool for every situation so he can tailor his gameplan to the opponent. This sounds like the definition of an all-rounder to me. That Smash players tend to favor aggression over defense is not down to Mario's design. (Also see: Sheik.)

Related: "Bait and Punish" sounds like a complete cop-out of a character's playstyle, since literally everyone wants to do that.

Aggressive: Wants to be in the opponent's face, overwhelming them in order to get hits.
Zoner: Wants to keep their distance, peppering the opponent from range and building damage safely.
Mixup: Focuses on being unpredictable, leaving the opponent guessing what they'll do next.
Grappler: Emphasizes the grab game, with unusually effective followups from a throw.
All-Rounder: Has a tool for most situations, although not usually as good as a specialist's.

I'd argue that most (if not all) characters in the game can be slotted into one of these categories. If you wanted, you could consider each a spectrum and say that "All-Rounders" are anyone with roughly equal proficiency in them. KuroganeHammer did something similar on his character pages with the X/10 meters for offense, defense, and recovery. For example, say character X is mostly aggressive because he wants to get in and overwhelm, with shades of the grappler since he gets above-average followups off a throw, but his lack of a projectile makes him bad at zoning and most of his options can be dealt with in similar ways so he's bad at mixup. (IDK if anyone actually fits this description. Maybe Meta Knight?)

Final note, categorization should be separate from tiers. You can have a character that's designed to be aggressive, at the expense of all other possible categories, but is still really bad at it for whatever reason, which would leave them as a bad character.
 
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Ropalme1914

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Today we released the brazillian tier list. It is based only on matchups, so it does not consider our opinions directly on the characters position on the tier list. The matchups are not weighted, so a +1 against Ganondorf has the same valor as a +1 vs Mario. The rating system we used is the -3/-2/-1/0/+1/+2/+3, but you can covert it to the 50/50 system using this:

Advantage of 75/25 or greater -> +3
Advantage of 65/35 or 70/30 -> +2
Advantage of 55/45 or 60/40 -> +1
50/50 -> 0

Then, the score of each character in the tier list is based on this:
Even -> 0 points
+/- 1 -> +/- 1 point
+/- 2 -> +/- 1.5 points
+/- 3 -> +/- 1.75 points

Then we have the tier list:
Observations:
-This tier list is based on the 1.1.6 version
-"/" is an tie in between two characters
-Custom Moves Off
-Miis are 1111 Guest Size
The tier list:
Top Tier
S::4mario:/:4cloud::rosalina::4sheik::4zss::4fox::4diddy::4pikachu:
S-::4sonic::4metaknight::4ryu:
High Tier
A+::4villager::4mewtwo::4greninja::4ness::4yoshi:
A::4tlink::4bayonetta:
A-::4megaman:/:4corrin:
Borderline Tier
B+::4falcon:
B::4olimar::4pit:/:4darkpit::4peach:
B-::4lucario:
Mid Tier
C+::4pacman::4marth::4rob::4wario:
C::4lucina::4gaw::4samus:/:4lucas:
C-::4dedede::4dk::4link:/:4kirby::4palutena::4luigi:/:4myfriends::4shulk:
Low Tier
D+::4duckhunt::4robinm:
D::4bowserjr::4falco:
D-::4bowser::4wiifit::4feroy:/:4miigun:
Bottom Tier
E+::4drmario::4littlemac:
E::4charizard::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
E-::4miibrawl::4ganondorf:
Mario: +49,0
Luigi: -14,5
Peach: +8,0
Bowser: -30,75

Yoshi: +29,5
Rosalina: +48,25
Bowser Jr.: -24,5
Wario: -2,0

DK: -10,5
Diddy: +43,25
G&W: -6,0
Little Mac: -42,5

Link: -11,0
Zelda: -53,0
Sheik: +47,75
Ganon: -70,0

Toon Link: +24,5
samus: -6,5
ZSS: +46,0
Palutena: -13,0

Pit: +10,0
Dark Pit: +10,0
Marth: -0,5
Lucina: -5,5

Ike: -14,5
Robin: -19,75
Duck Hunt: -19,0
Kirby: -11,0

Dedede: -9,0
MK: +40,5
Fox: +45,0
Falco: -25,0

Pikachu: +43,0
Charizard: -49,5
Lucario: +4,0
Jigglypuff: -52,0

Greninja: +31,25
R.O.B: -1,5
Ness: +30,0
Captain Falcon: +13,0

Villager: +33,5
Olimar: +10,25
Wii Fit Trainer: -31,5
Shulk: -15,0

Doc Mario: -38,0
Mega Man: +18,5
Pac Man: 0,0
Sonic: +41,0

Mewtwo: +33,0
Lucas: -6,5
Roy: -32,5
Ryu: +38,5

Cloud: +49,0
Corrin: +18,5
Bayonetta: +24,25

Mii Brawler: -68,0
Mii Gunner: -32,5
Mii Swordfighter: -51,0
You can see the matchups for each character here: http://1upsmash.com/topic/8580370/1/?x=0#post8204530 just click in the spoiler were it says "Matchups".
 
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Amadeus9

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Today we released the brazillian tier list. It is based only on matchups, so it does not consider our opinions directly on the characters position on the tier list. The matchups are not weighted, so a +1 against Ganondorf has the same valor as a +1 vs Mario. The rating system we used is the -3/-2/-1/0/+1/+2/+3, but you can covert it to the 50/50 system using this:

Advantage of 75/25 or greater -> +3
Advantage of 65/35 or 70/30 -> +2
Advantage of 55/45 or 60/40 -> +1
50/50 -> 0

Then, the punctuation of each character in the tier list is based on this:
Even -> 0 points
+/- 1 -> +/- 1 point
+/- 2 -> +/- 1.5 points
+/- 3 -> +/- 1.75 points

Then we have the tier list:
Observations:
-This tier list is based on the 1.1.6 version
-"/" is an tie in between two characters
-Custom Moves Off
-Miis are 1111 Guest Size
The tier list:
Top Tier
S::4mario:/:4cloud::rosalina::4sheik::4zss::4fox::4diddy::4pikachu:
S-::4sonic::4metaknight::4ryu:
High Tier
A+::4villager::4mewtwo::4greninja::4ness::4yoshi:
A::4tlink::4bayonetta:
A-::4megaman:/:4corrin:
Borderline Tier
B+::4falcon:
B::4olimar::4pit:/:4darkpit::4peach:
B-::4lucario:
Mid Tier
C+::4pacman::4marth::4rob::4wario:
C::4lucina::4gaw::4samus:/:4lucas:
C-::4dedede::4dk::4link:/:4kirby::4palutena::4luigi:/:4myfriends::4shulk:
Low Tier
D+::4duckhunt::4robinm:
D::4bowserjr::4falco:
D-::4bowser::4wiifit::4feroy:/:4miigun:
Bottom Tier
E+::4drmario::4littlemac:
E::4charizard::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
E-::4miibrawl::4ganondorf:
Mario: +49,0
Luigi: -14,5
Peach: +8,0
Bowser: -30,75

Yoshi: +29,5
Rosalina: +48,25
Bowser Jr.: -24,5
Wario: -2,0

DK: -10,5
Diddy: +43,25
G&W: -6,0
Little Mac: -42,5

Link: -11,0
Zelda: -53,0
Sheik: +47,75
Ganon: -70,0

Toon Link: +24,5
samus: -6,5
ZSS: +46,0
Palutena: -13,0

Pit: +10,0
Dark Pit: +10,0
Marth: -0,5
Lucina: -5,5

Ike: -14,5
Robin: -19,75
Duck Hunt: -19,0
Kirby: -11,0

Dedede: -9,0
MK: +40,5
Fox: +45,0
Falco: -25,0

Pikachu: +43,0
Charizard: -49,5
Lucario: +4,0
Jigglypuff: -52,0

Greninja: +31,25
R.O.B: -1,5
Ness: +30,0
Captain Falcon: +13,0

Villager: +33,5
Olimar: +10,25
Wii Fit Trainer: -31,5
Shulk: -15,0

Doc Mario: -38,0
Mega Man: +18,5
Pac Man: 0,0
Sonic: +41,0

Mewtwo: +33,0
Lucas: -6,5
Roy: -32,5
Ryu: +38,5

Cloud: +49,0
Corrin: +18,5
Bayonetta: +24,25

Mii Brawler: -68,0
Mii Gunner: -32,5
Mii Swordfighter: -51,0
You can see the matchups for each character here: http://1upsmash.com/topic/8580370/1/?x=0#post8204530 just click in the spoiler were it says "Matchups".
How can we possibly make an MU based tier list when we cant even agree on whether or not Cloud beats Rosa or the other way around?
 

Eugene Wang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
148
Bait and Punish is best applied to pure momentum characters: strong on punishment, but weak on tools to get to this desired state. They may have tools to maintain pressure or look vulnerable, but this isn't a necessity.

Some characters commonly called bait-and-punish:

:4metaknight: has a highly linear neutral, so at high levels, he must play patiently and watch the opponent for openings to run in and make good of his strong combos.
:4sonic: is the fastest character in the game, but lacks range and is vulnerable if he loses the initiative. He'd be a generic offense fighter, but his three spin specials are ambiguous, and give him the pressure tools to force reactions from opponents, which he can capitalize on with his supersonic speed.
:4kirby: has a good combo game and strong kill moves, but moves slowly, and has no approach tools. At least his low duck can force approaches when he's ahead.
:4ganondorf: also has a crud neutral, but strong punishes. His frame data is slow, so he loses at standard hand-to-hand combat. His game is made largely of reads, which are easiest to get by watching the opponent and predicting where they will be.
 

Ropalme1914

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How can we possibly make an MU based tier list when we cant even agree on whether or not Cloud beats Rosa or the other way around?
We used the opinions of the community, and you could vote for any matchup. If there were not any discussion, we used an top main of that character MU chart to cover that specific matchup. Also, people who mains the characters have more "power" when they votes for his character. Rosa vs Cloud was probably the most discussed matchup (more than 6 pages of discussion), I voted for even but a lot of other people voted for +1 Cloud. It stayed +1 Cloud, but Lukin (the person who organized the discussion) said that he would put a note on that matchup due to how controversial it was.
 

dakotaisgreat

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So out of curiosity, when does another tier list come out anyways? If people are waiting for a conclusive, fully settled and concrete meta that could take many years. Patches seem to be done, all of the DLC characters are old by now, EVO is finished..

I mean, does anyone even know when another one will get made? Who is in charge of that? This thread could go on for another 562 pages.
 

mountain_tiger

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As commendable as the effort is, the very fact that, by your own admission, the matchups aren't weighted already significantly mars this list's credibility.

The only way a list like this would work is if all characters were equally likely to be played any time you faced off against someone else.
 

Emblem Lord

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Just want to chime in and say that back in the day the community over at Shoryuken.com had TWO tier list for Street Fighter: 3rd Strike.

You had a pure match-up based list. Then you had the weighted list which tiered based on how well you did vs common tourney threats.

It took a VERY long time for both lists to become solidified and widely agreed upon, but even today both lists get debated because humans never fully agree on anything.

Food for thought.
 

Ropalme1914

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As commendable as the effort is, the very fact that, by your own admission, the matchups aren't weighted already significantly mars this list's credibility.

The only way a list like this would work is if all characters were equally likely to be played any time you faced off against someone else.
Actually, I agree with you that the matchups should be weighted, and I even said in the original post of this tier list discussion. However, it was not me who organized the tier list, so I can't do anything. Even if I made a tier list with weighted scores, it would not be considered the official tier list, just another random tier.
 

Y2Kay

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There are definitely some things I disagree with, but I think it's interesting to see how players in Brazil view the viability of characters. I don't know what all the hate is about, from my understanding this was an actual project by Brazil's community. Too bad I am horrible at Portuguese.

:150:
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
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Nothing being 100% right so on and so on, so yeah things will always be talked about even if it seems near perfect. To this day people are still occasionally discussing the last released BBR tier list and saying it should get one last change.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
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Messages
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I was going to do a post about rushdown, but my internet kept dropping and the post was a giant wall, so... Anyway, 2 questions: 1. How do any of you define rushdown? And 2. How does Smash define rushdown? Ponder that for a moment before reading on.

From GiantBomb: "Rushdown refers to a both a general philosophy across all fighting games as well as a number of specific, aggressive strategies and play styles in particular games. It can be considered the opposite of turtling. The general goal of a rushdown player is to overwhelm the opponent and force costly mistakes either by using fast, confusing setups or by taking advantage of an impatient opponent as they are forced to play defense for prolonged periods of time. Rushdown players often favor attacking opponents in the corner or as they get up from a knockdown; both situations severely limit the options of the opponent and often allow the attacking player to force high-risk guessing scenarios.

Rushdown characters are often fast and require a certain degree of physical dexterity and educated guesswork to use effectively. Some famously strong rushdown characters include Marvel vs. Capcom 2's Magneto, Street Fighter III: Third Strike's Dudley and Makoto, Tekken's Bob, and Street Fighter IV's Rufus, to name a few." Link: http://www.giantbomb.com/rushdown/3015-5767/.

From Shoryuken: "A style of play that revolves around attacking quickly to make the opponent guess what you are going to do. Often goes hand-in-hand with mixup. Certain characters play better with a rushdown style, such as Akuma and Makoto in SF3." Link: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

From Wikipedia: "In fighting games, rush down or cheesing is a common tactic. Usually a player uses a move, or a series of offensive moves, to overwhelm the opponent. There are many ways to do this in fighting games, however, in general cheesing follows two forms.

The first form is usually an all out relentless attack by a player which can be maintained by using any and all attacks at the player’s disposal (button mashing) or through a memorized offensive combination routine. This tactic is usually more effective on beginners who have not mastered defensive stances and counterattacks. Beginners will tend to either try to match the more experienced player measure for measure, (and fail due to unfamiliarity with controls) or "clam up" in a complete defensive posture leaving them vulnerable to more powerful defense-breaking attacks. Sometimes, this tactic is used as a feint or an opening test of a player’s ability, rather than a style of play. Experienced gamers, in general, will be used to countering rush down techniques without sacrificing offense.

Another popular type of cheesing involves a manipulation of game mechanics. In this type a player uses rapid offensive maneuvers coupled with manipulation of the games design. For example, a player might rush down in hopes of trapping a player against the "corner", or some physical boundary developed by games so as to cut down their opponent’s ability to elude the assault. Another example is using graphic or timing discrepancies to incapacitate an opponent. For example, the game might have a series of "quick attacks" which might throw an opponent to the game's floor; the modeling of the player who is floored by an attack might be relatively slow. Players who are floored are usually unable to defend themselves until they're back in their set position. As such an opponent can use an attack to "floor" an opponent and then once floored can repeatedly use quick attacks to seemingly keep the opponent floored (and unable to defend themselves) indefinitely. A prominent example of this was in Mortal Kombat, in which the low level sweep kick could be used to keep the player semi permanently floored. This type of cheesing is frowned upon by inexperienced gamers, and may cause players to refuse to play with the offender." Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_(video_gaming)#Fighting_games.

From Wiktionary: "The complete opposite of turtling, a rushdown style is considered to be completely offensive, often using a huge variety of mix up, pressure and mind games to force an opponent into a suboptimal defensive situation, seeking to create openings and watch for sudden mistakes to capitalize with proper, devastating punishment. Because of its overtly offensive, flashy nature, rushdown is generally considered to be a very entertaining -- if risky -- style of fighting. The King Of Fighters is a game acknowledged for having a universal system of movements that allow an evolved form of rushdowns." Link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Rushdown.

In the spoilers, the shortest and vaguest definition of rushdown is Shoyruken's. Not really helpful... It kind of just says rushdown is a button-happy play style, but other styles can be button-happy too like zoning can be button-happy by plastering the screen with projectiles to piss you off, make you want to stop them in whatever way possible, and then you get beat up in your reckless revenge. I don't know how Smash defines rushdown, I don't know how other fighting games define rushdown, and frankly, I don't care. What I do care about is that I'm getting a feeling that rushdown isn't understood well or even might be misdefined. The fact zoning is sometimes considered camping doesn't help with that... If you want my opinion, I think Smash considers rushdown to be like in Melee, a glorification of all the offensive pressure the top tiers, especially Falco and Fox, could place. Here's the thing, rushdown is that: offensive pressure. Speed of the pressure kind of doesn't really matter, especially when considering different games.

How that pressure plays out doesn't just have to be press buttons all the time and by that, I mean attack, attack, attack, LEEEEEEROY JENKINS! You can play rushdown at a slower pace and you can play rushdown without attacking a lot. An example of this is this match of Falco and Lucas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Pbt7yqiZg. Falco wants in pretty much all the time while Lucas wants to keep Falco at a safe distance. Falco's running an unorthodox rushdown since he wasn't built to be one and does it through pure movement: rapid dashes, empty jumps, and trying to invade Lucas's space whenever he can. Lucas is just doing classic zoning; using PK Fire, a projectile, to keep Falco out, using his Zair, a poke, to keep and control space, and whenever Falco makes a poor approach, punishes him.

This is also an example of how a character can be associated with or have a play style and not be good at in. In Falco's case, it's just because he wasn't built to be one and the play style that seems to be implied through his design, zoning, doesn't work because whatever aspect of zoning, his Blaster, doesn't function enough to work. This would be the worst case scenario and I don't think any other character suffers from this. The better scenario is when a character seems to be marketed as one play style, but excels at another or even others. Characters like Captain Falcon, Mario, and Mewtwo come to mind; Capt.'s been the rushdown guy, but works better as a "bait and punish", Mario is usually marketed as the all-around character who everyone can play as because he's simple making him the "tutorial character" like Ryu in Street Fighter, but works better as a rushdown, and Mewtwo is implied to be a glass cannon rushdown, but plays well as a zoner and "bait and punish".

Last things I want to say before moving on is that I don't get how stuff like "footsies" can be considered a play style. Footsies is a concept. It would be like saying Ganondorf is a command grab character. Okay, he has one command grab which he can get a lot of setups, even confirms, and play mind-games with it, but that's not a play style. Or something like Luigi is a mixup character. Are we talking about DJ'ing or fighting? Mixup's a concept not a play style. Mixup can be associated with rushdown and zoning. Also, should we really spend a lot of time on categorizing play styles? Time spent doing something else like I don't know, labbing, would be more beneficial than figuring out exactly where Luigi would fit in all of this.

What might be easier or clearer to use for categorizing characters into play styles is using boxing styles. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_styles_and_technique#Boxing_styles. Even without reading the page, you can get an idea of each of them except for boxer-puncher. An in-fighter would basically be rushdown; character wants in, they apply a lot of pressure through attack or movement, usually by advancing towards you. In-fighters are also called "swarmers" or "crowders". Going with swarmer, it makes sense, right? They're going to swarm in on you and overwhelm you (with pressure). Examples of in-fighters would be Captain Falcon and Fox.

The out-fighter or out-boxer or just plain boxer would be the opposite; out-fighters would be zoners. Making this apply more to fighting games since boxing doesn't involve projectiles which would be cool -- imagine a boxer being able to fire a Hadouken or something. Overall, they're just zoners who keep and control space between them and their opponent and play a generally more cautious style. I'm refraining from using "defensive" or "passive" and didn't mention "risk" because I don't want people to get the wrong idea and there seems to be some bad connotation with "defensive" gameplay in Smash. Any can be high risk or low risk, aggressive or passive, or offensive or defensive depending on the character and player like one Fox player can play defensively while another plays more offensively or one Mega Man plays high risk while another plays low risk. Anyway, examples of out-fighters would be Greninja, Marth, and Villager.

Pretty simple and just another way to say rushdown and zoner. The only problem is when adding more categories... Boxing has 2 others: slugger and boxer-puncher. Slugger's weird and I don't know if it can apply to a fighting game. The closest I can think of would be heavyweights, but that's not a play style; heavyweights are a type of character. Grappling doesn't work either.

Boxer-puncher is described as being a mix of out-fighter and slugger. By that, it's described as an out-fighter with a slugger's power. Kind of weird. There's never a mention of them possessing in-fighter attributes, but they were mentioned as being hard to categorize as they're a mix of all the other styles, so you could consider them as the "all-arounder" or to make it simpler, the middle-ground between in- and out-fighters. Going with that, you'd have a character who can or wants to go in and pressure, but can or wants to keep and control space. Examples of a boxer-puncher would be someone like Mewtwo, Sheik, Sonic, and possibly Yoshi.

Then there's "sub-styles" where the only applicable one would be the counterpuncher. They're basically the "bait and punish" fighter, but since baiting and punishing is something everyone can do and I feel it's more of a concept rather than a style, I don't really think it would fit. Counterpunchers being associated with grapplers might work better if you go with these definitions.

From Shoryuken: "Character with strong throws who often works hard to get in on the opponent, but does huge damage once he is in. Examples include Zangief from SF2/4, Hugo from SF3, Potemkin from GG, and Tager from BB." Link: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

From Wiktionary: "Grapplers are characters with strong command throws. These command throws are hard to perform, but the payoff is big due to the fact that you'll have a high damage output. Grapplers usually have movesets that comprise of 360 degrees motions." Link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Grappler.

Problem with Smash is, if you go with Wiktionary's definition, not a lot of characters have command throws and the ones that do don't have command throws that do like 20%. If you with Shoryuken's, it's still similar, but looser. Still, it might be better to have this as a subcategory.

I don't know, it's a weird idea and rushdown and zoning can work. Using only them with a gap between would lead to an even-ish split of the cast between rushdown and zoning with some characters in between. Adding more categories, especially ones that seem more like concepts rather than styles, would complicate things.

I started trying to fit more characters into this venn diagram, and then ran into a roadblock: Falco.

He doesn't excel in any one category, but it feels weird to call him an all-rounder the way that Mario or Pit are.
You've answered your own question: Falco doesn't excel at anything. That's what happens when half your gameplan is nonexistent. By design, he's a zoner, but because Blaster fails to doing anything other than piss people off while making Falco a sitting duck, he can't zone, so he's forced to play another style that he wasn't designed for: rushdown. He's not a grappler as he doesn't have actual confirms from them like Bowser, DK, or even Luigi, he doesn't have other aspects of zoning to use like a good, safe poke -- Reflector's a good poke, but it's definitely not safe --, and while he does rushdown better than zoning, with his zoning being nonexistent in the first place, there isn't much to speak off of his ability to rushdown.

Probably why he's called the "footsies" and "mixup" character since if you fail at being categorized with a play style, then all that's left is being categorized with concepts...

:4ganondorf: also has a crud neutral, but strong punishes. His frame data is slow, so he loses at standard hand-to-hand combat. His game is made largely of reads, which are easiest to get by watching the opponent and predicting where they will be.
I've no idea where this misconception that Ganondorf's moves are slow comes from. Outside of his Utilt, Smashes, and Specials, Ganondorf's frame data is more or less, Captain Falcon's. This is extremely noticeable by the fact their aerials are the same in startup. There are even some moves where Capt. would kill Ganondorf for: Ftilt, maybe Dtilt, maybe Fair, Bair, and maybe Dair.
 
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Ropalme1914

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There are definitely some things I disagree with, but I think it's interesting to see how players in Brazil view the viability of characters. I don't know what all the hate is about, from my understanding this was an actual project by Brazil's community. Too bad I am horrible at Portuguese.

:150:
Yeah, our meta is more defensive, so characters like Toon Link are viewed better here than in other places, especially that one of our best players, Luffy, is a Toon Link main, even winning a tournament in other countries like Paraguay. Also, I can translate some things if you want, like the MUs commentary that were posted. My english is not perfect, but it's readable.
 
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Baby_Sneak

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It seems people are calling Mario rushdown based on his ability to get in and string tons of hits together? I can sort of see that, but literally everyone wants to string hits together once they get in. It comes with the territory of being in a fighting game. I think it would be more accurate to consider a character's gameplan in the neutral, and see if it's flexible or if it's a one-trick pony.

Staying on Mario, he has the speed and frame data to rush in, apply pressure, and combo. He also has a projectile to keep his distance, a reflector to deal with enemy projectiles, and a frame 3 up special OOS. As a character, his design seems to be based around the idea of having a tool for every situation so he can tailor his gameplan to the opponent. This sounds like the definition of an all-rounder to me. That Smash players tend to favor aggression over defense is not down to Mario's design. (Also see: Sheik.)

Related: "Bait and Punish" sounds like a complete cop-out of a character's playstyle, since literally everyone wants to do that.

Aggressive: Wants to be in the opponent's face, overwhelming them in order to get hits.
Zoner: Wants to keep their distance, peppering the opponent from range and building damage safely.
Mixup: Focuses on being unpredictable, leaving the opponent guessing what they'll do next.
Grappler: Emphasizes the grab game, with unusually effective followups from a throw.
All-Rounder: Has a tool for most situations, although not usually as good as a specialist's.

I'd argue that most (if not all) characters in the game can be slotted into one of these categories. If you wanted, you could consider each a spectrum and say that "All-Rounders" are anyone with roughly equal proficiency in them. KuroganeHammer did something similar on his character pages with the X/10 meters for offense, defense, and recovery. For example, say character X is mostly aggressive because he wants to get in and overwhelm, with shades of the grappler since he gets above-average followups off a throw, but his lack of a projectile makes him bad at zoning and most of his options can be dealt with in similar ways so he's bad at mixup. (IDK if anyone actually fits this description. Maybe Meta Knight?)

Final note, categorization should be separate from tiers. You can have a character that's designed to be aggressive, at the expense of all other possible categories, but is still really bad at it for whatever reason, which would leave them as a bad character.
Everyone wants to do damage when they're close, but some prefer to be far away, where they're the strongest. Mario isn't like that and there seldom comes a time where he would want to do that. Totally related, I believe some people make secondaries so they don't have to adapt their style to each different match.

And going off of your idea of considering the game plans a character in the neutral, Mario would still be a brawler/close-up fighter. He has multiple tools for w/e situation, but zoning an opponent out isn't one of them. He has a projectile, but it sucks (it'll only force approaches if the opponent finds it hard to PS the fireballs and they're really easy to PS), and though he has great pokes to set up a wall, that wouldn't be zoning anymore, but instead turtling. What villager, mega man, duck hunt, and link/toon link does is zoning, sonic, cloud, Marth, cloud, and others choose between rushdown and turtle depending on the MU, the players, etc...

Design-wise, yes Mario is a all-rounder. But, his projectile ain't good enough to facilitate being able to effectively zone most characters. I'd still consider him a brawler/close-up fighter.

Last things I want to say before moving on is that I don't get how stuff like "footsies" can be considered a play style. Footsies is a concept. It would be like saying Ganondorf is a command grab character. Okay, he has one command grab which he can get a lot of setups, even confirms, and play mind-games with it, but that's not a play style. Or something like Luigi is a mixup character. Are we talking about DJ'ing or fighting? Mixup's a concept not a play style. Mixup can be associated with rushdown and zoning. Also, should we really spend a lot of time on categorizing play styles? Time spent doing something else like I don't know, labbing, would be more beneficial than figuring out exactly where Luigi would fit in all of this.
Footsies is being categorized as a playstyle because characters like chun li kind of originated it with her ridiculous normals, fast walk speed, and ability to control space with just her normals alone, not to mention a fireball as well. footsies are truly a abstract concept thing, so I'm not entirely on board with the categorization either (though I did use it earlier in the thread).

And your boxing idea is one I've thought up as well!
 
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Y2Kay

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I'm gonna roll with the boxer analogy. I think that :4mewtwo:'s play style most closely resembles that of a Boxer - Puncher.

A boxer - puncher "possesses many of the qualities of the out-boxer; hand speed, often an outstanding jab, combination and/or counter-punching skills, better defense and accuracy than a slugger, while possessing slugger type power. The Boxer-Puncher may also be more willing to fight in an aggressive swarmer-style than an out-boxer. In general the boxer-puncher lacks the mobility and defensive expertise of the pure boxer (exceptions include the Sugar Rays, Freddie Steele, and Joe Gans). Boxer-punchers usually do well against out-boxers, especially if they can match their speed and mobility. They also tend to match up well against swarmers, because the extra power often discourages the swarmer's aggression. Their only downfall are the big sluggers because once again, it only takes one punch and the lights are out. This would depend on the boxer-puncher's defense, chin, and mobility. " according to the wikipedia page Ffamran Ffamran linked.

Similar to out - boxers (boxers that "zone" their opponents with long ranged punches), Mewtwo does like to maintain a certain space between his opponents. His anti approach moves like Fair and Down tilt to discourage aggressive approaches similar to how a Boxer - Puncher's power dissuades a swarmer's aggression. Mewtwo also typically has good match ups against zoners. And lastly, Mewtwo also can't take hard hit as well like a Boxer - Puncher.

In short, Mewtwo (and Outer - Boxers) trades durability for a more diverse skill set.

:150:
 
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adom4

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I was going to do a post about rushdown, but my internet kept dropping and the post was a giant wall, so... Anyway, 2 questions: 1. How do any of you define rushdown? And 2. How does Smash define rushdown? Ponder that for a moment before reading on.

From GiantBomb: "Rushdown refers to a both a general philosophy across all fighting games as well as a number of specific, aggressive strategies and play styles in particular games. It can be considered the opposite of turtling. The general goal of a rushdown player is to overwhelm the opponent and force costly mistakes either by using fast, confusing setups or by taking advantage of an impatient opponent as they are forced to play defense for prolonged periods of time. Rushdown players often favor attacking opponents in the corner or as they get up from a knockdown; both situations severely limit the options of the opponent and often allow the attacking player to force high-risk guessing scenarios.

Rushdown characters are often fast and require a certain degree of physical dexterity and educated guesswork to use effectively. Some famously strong rushdown characters include Marvel vs. Capcom 2's Magneto, Street Fighter III: Third Strike's Dudley and Makoto, Tekken's Bob, and Street Fighter IV's Rufus, to name a few." Link: http://www.giantbomb.com/rushdown/3015-5767/.

From Shoryuken: "A style of play that revolves around attacking quickly to make the opponent guess what you are going to do. Often goes hand-in-hand with mixup. Certain characters play better with a rushdown style, such as Akuma and Makoto in SF3." Link: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

From Wikipedia: "In fighting games, rush down or cheesing is a common tactic. Usually a player uses a move, or a series of offensive moves, to overwhelm the opponent. There are many ways to do this in fighting games, however, in general cheesing follows two forms.

The first form is usually an all out relentless attack by a player which can be maintained by using any and all attacks at the player’s disposal (button mashing) or through a memorized offensive combination routine. This tactic is usually more effective on beginners who have not mastered defensive stances and counterattacks. Beginners will tend to either try to match the more experienced player measure for measure, (and fail due to unfamiliarity with controls) or "clam up" in a complete defensive posture leaving them vulnerable to more powerful defense-breaking attacks. Sometimes, this tactic is used as a feint or an opening test of a player’s ability, rather than a style of play. Experienced gamers, in general, will be used to countering rush down techniques without sacrificing offense.

Another popular type of cheesing involves a manipulation of game mechanics. In this type a player uses rapid offensive maneuvers coupled with manipulation of the games design. For example, a player might rush down in hopes of trapping a player against the "corner", or some physical boundary developed by games so as to cut down their opponent’s ability to elude the assault. Another example is using graphic or timing discrepancies to incapacitate an opponent. For example, the game might have a series of "quick attacks" which might throw an opponent to the game's floor; the modeling of the player who is floored by an attack might be relatively slow. Players who are floored are usually unable to defend themselves until they're back in their set position. As such an opponent can use an attack to "floor" an opponent and then once floored can repeatedly use quick attacks to seemingly keep the opponent floored (and unable to defend themselves) indefinitely. A prominent example of this was in Mortal Kombat, in which the low level sweep kick could be used to keep the player semi permanently floored. This type of cheesing is frowned upon by inexperienced gamers, and may cause players to refuse to play with the offender." Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_(video_gaming)#Fighting_games.

From Wiktionary: "The complete opposite of turtling, a rushdown style is considered to be completely offensive, often using a huge variety of mix up, pressure and mind games to force an opponent into a suboptimal defensive situation, seeking to create openings and watch for sudden mistakes to capitalize with proper, devastating punishment. Because of its overtly offensive, flashy nature, rushdown is generally considered to be a very entertaining -- if risky -- style of fighting. The King Of Fighters is a game acknowledged for having a universal system of movements that allow an evolved form of rushdowns." Link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Rushdown.

In the spoilers, the shortest and vaguest definition of rushdown is Shoyruken's. Not really helpful... It kind of just says rushdown is a button-happy play style, but other styles can be button-happy too like zoning can be button-happy by plastering the screen with projectiles to piss you off, make you want to stop them in whatever way possible, and then you get beat up in your reckless revenge. I don't know how Smash defines rushdown, I don't know how other fighting games define rushdown, and frankly, I don't care. What I do care about is that I'm getting a feeling that rushdown isn't understood well or even might be misdefined. The fact zoning is sometimes considered camping doesn't help with that... If you want my opinion, I think Smash considers rushdown to be like in Melee, a glorification of all the offensive pressure the top tiers, especially Falco and Fox, could place. Here's the thing, rushdown is that: offensive pressure. Speed of the pressure kind of doesn't really matter, especially when considering different games.

How that pressure plays out doesn't just have to be press buttons all the time and by that, I mean attack, attack, attack, LEEEEEEROY JENKINS! You can play rushdown at a slower pace and you can play rushdown without attacking a lot. An example of this is this match of Falco and Lucas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Pbt7yqiZg. Falco wants in pretty much all the time while Lucas wants to keep Falco at a safe distance. Falco's running an unorthodox rushdown since he wasn't built to be one and does it through pure movement: rapid dashes, empty jumps, and trying to invade Lucas's space whenever he can. Lucas is just doing classic zoning; using PK Fire, a projectile, to keep Falco out, using his Zair, a poke, to keep and control space, and whenever Falco makes a poor approach, punishes him.

This is also an example of how a character can be associated with or have a play style and not be good at in. In Falco's case, it's just because he wasn't built to be one and the play style that seems to be implied through his design, zoning, doesn't work because whatever aspect of zoning, his Blaster, doesn't function enough to work. This would be the worst case scenario and I don't think any other character suffers from this. The better scenario is when a character seems to be marketed as one play style, but excels at another or even others. Characters like Captain Falcon, Mario, and Mewtwo come to mind; Capt.'s been the rushdown guy, but works better as a "bait and punish", Mario is usually marketed as the all-around character who everyone can play as because he's simple making him the "tutorial character" like Ryu in Street Fighter, but works better as a rushdown, and Mewtwo is implied to be a glass cannon rushdown, but plays well as a zoner and "bait and punish".

Last things I want to say before moving on is that I don't get how stuff like "footsies" can be considered a play style. Footsies is a concept. It would be like saying Ganondorf is a command grab character. Okay, he has one command grab which he can get a lot of setups, even confirms, and play mind-games with it, but that's not a play style. Or something like Luigi is a mixup character. Are we talking about DJ'ing or fighting? Mixup's a concept not a play style. Mixup can be associated with rushdown and zoning. Also, should we really spend a lot of time on categorizing play styles? Time spent doing something else like I don't know, labbing, would be more beneficial than figuring out exactly where Luigi would fit in all of this.

What might be easier or clearer to use for categorizing characters into play styles is using boxing styles. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_styles_and_technique#Boxing_styles. Even without reading the page, you can get an idea of each of them except for boxer-puncher. An in-fighter would basically be rushdown; character wants in, they apply a lot of pressure through attack or movement, usually by advancing towards you. In-fighters are also called "swarmers" or "crowders". Going with swarmer, it makes sense, right? They're going to swarm in on you and overwhelm you (with pressure). Examples of in-fighters would be Captain Falcon and Fox.

The out-fighter or out-boxer or just plain boxer would be the opposite; out-fighters would be zoners. Making this apply more to fighting games since boxing doesn't involve projectiles which would be cool -- imagine a boxer being able to fire a Hadouken or something. Overall, they're just zoners who keep and control space between them and their opponent and play a generally more cautious style. I'm refraining from using "defensive" or "passive" and didn't mention "risk" because I don't want people to get the wrong idea and there seems to be some bad connotation with "defensive" gameplay in Smash. Any can be high risk or low risk, aggressive or passive, or offensive or defensive depending on the character and player like one Fox player can play defensively while another plays more offensively or one Mega Man plays high risk while another plays low risk. Anyway, examples of out-fighters would be Greninja, Marth, and Villager.

Pretty simple and just another way to say rushdown and zoner. The only problem is when adding more categories... Boxing has 2 others: slugger and boxer-puncher. Slugger's weird and I don't know if it can apply to a fighting game. The closest I can think of would be heavyweights, but that's not a play style; heavyweights are a type of character. Grappling doesn't work either.

Boxer-puncher is described as being a mix of out-fighter and slugger. By that, it's described as an out-fighter with a slugger's power. Kind of weird. There's never a mention of them possessing in-fighter attributes, but they were mentioned as being hard to categorize as they're a mix of all the other styles, so you could consider them as the "all-arounder" or to make it simpler, the middle-ground between in- and out-fighters. Going with that, you'd have a character who can or wants to go in and pressure, but can or wants to keep and control space. Examples of a boxer-puncher would be someone like Mewtwo, Sheik, Sonic, and possibly Yoshi.

Then there's "sub-styles" where the only applicable one would be the counterpuncher. They're basically the "bait and punish" fighter, but since baiting and punishing is something everyone can do and I feel it's more of a concept rather than a style, I don't really think it would fit. Counterpunchers being associated with grapplers might work better if you go with these definitions.

From Shoryuken: "Character with strong throws who often works hard to get in on the opponent, but does huge damage once he is in. Examples include Zangief from SF2/4, Hugo from SF3, Potemkin from GG, and Tager from BB." Link: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

From Wiktionary: "Grapplers are characters with strong command throws. These command throws are hard to perform, but the payoff is big due to the fact that you'll have a high damage output. Grapplers usually have movesets that comprise of 360 degrees motions." Link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Grappler.

Problem with Smash is, if you go with Wiktionary's definition, not a lot of characters have command throws and the ones that do don't have command throws that do like 20%. If you with Shoryuken's, it's still similar, but looser. Still, it might be better to have this as a subcategory.

I don't know, it's a weird idea and rushdown and zoning can work. Using only them with a gap between would lead to an even-ish split of the cast between rushdown and zoning with some characters in between. Adding more categories, especially ones that seem more like concepts rather than styles, would complicate things.


You've answered your own question: Falco doesn't excel at anything. That's what happens when half your gameplan is nonexistent. By design, he's a zoner, but because Blaster fails to doing anything other than piss people off while making Falco a sitting duck, he can't zone, so he's forced to play another style that he wasn't designed for: rushdown. He's not a grappler as he doesn't have actual confirms from them like Bowser, DK, or even Luigi, he doesn't have other aspects of zoning to use like a good, safe poke -- Reflector's a good poke, but it's definitely not safe --, and while he does rushdown better than zoning, with his zoning being nonexistent in the first place, there isn't much to speak off of his ability to rushdown.

Probably why he's called the "footsies" and "mixup" character since if you fail at being categorized with a play style, then all that's left is being categorized with concepts...


I've no idea where this misconception that Ganondorf's moves are slow comes from. Outside of his Utilt, Smashes, and Specials, Ganondorf's frame data is more or less, Captain Falcon's. This is extremely noticeable by the fact their aerials are the same in startup. There are even some moves where Capt. would kill Ganondorf for: Ftilt, maybe Dtilt, maybe Fair, Bair, and maybe Dair.
His only slower smash attack is F-smash, both U-smash and D-smash are faster than Falcon's.
 

Ethan7

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Today we released the brazillian tier list. It is based only on matchups, so it does not consider our opinions directly on the characters position on the tier list. The matchups are not weighted, so a +1 against Ganondorf has the same valor as a +1 vs Mario. The rating system we used is the -3/-2/-1/0/+1/+2/+3, but you can covert it to the 50/50 system using this:

Advantage of 75/25 or greater -> +3
Advantage of 65/35 or 70/30 -> +2
Advantage of 55/45 or 60/40 -> +1
50/50 -> 0

Then, the score of each character in the tier list is based on this:
Even -> 0 points
+/- 1 -> +/- 1 point
+/- 2 -> +/- 1.5 points
+/- 3 -> +/- 1.75 points

Then we have the tier list:
Observations:
-This tier list is based on the 1.1.6 version
-"/" is an tie in between two characters
-Custom Moves Off
-Miis are 1111 Guest Size
The tier list:
Top Tier
S::4mario:/:4cloud::rosalina::4sheik::4zss::4fox::4diddy::4pikachu:
S-::4sonic::4metaknight::4ryu:
High Tier
A+::4villager::4mewtwo::4greninja::4ness::4yoshi:
A::4tlink::4bayonetta:
A-::4megaman:/:4corrin:
Borderline Tier
B+::4falcon:
B::4olimar::4pit:/:4darkpit::4peach:
B-::4lucario:
Mid Tier
C+::4pacman::4marth::4rob::4wario:
C::4lucina::4gaw::4samus:/:4lucas:
C-::4dedede::4dk::4link:/:4kirby::4palutena::4luigi:/:4myfriends::4shulk:
Low Tier
D+::4duckhunt::4robinm:
D::4bowserjr::4falco:
D-::4bowser::4wiifit::4feroy:/:4miigun:
Bottom Tier
E+::4drmario::4littlemac:
E::4charizard::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
E-::4miibrawl::4ganondorf:
Mario: +49,0
Luigi: -14,5
Peach: +8,0
Bowser: -30,75

Yoshi: +29,5
Rosalina: +48,25
Bowser Jr.: -24,5
Wario: -2,0

DK: -10,5
Diddy: +43,25
G&W: -6,0
Little Mac: -42,5

Link: -11,0
Zelda: -53,0
Sheik: +47,75
Ganon: -70,0

Toon Link: +24,5
samus: -6,5
ZSS: +46,0
Palutena: -13,0

Pit: +10,0
Dark Pit: +10,0
Marth: -0,5
Lucina: -5,5

Ike: -14,5
Robin: -19,75
Duck Hunt: -19,0
Kirby: -11,0

Dedede: -9,0
MK: +40,5
Fox: +45,0
Falco: -25,0

Pikachu: +43,0
Charizard: -49,5
Lucario: +4,0
Jigglypuff: -52,0

Greninja: +31,25
R.O.B: -1,5
Ness: +30,0
Captain Falcon: +13,0

Villager: +33,5
Olimar: +10,25
Wii Fit Trainer: -31,5
Shulk: -15,0

Doc Mario: -38,0
Mega Man: +18,5
Pac Man: 0,0
Sonic: +41,0

Mewtwo: +33,0
Lucas: -6,5
Roy: -32,5
Ryu: +38,5

Cloud: +49,0
Corrin: +18,5
Bayonetta: +24,25

Mii Brawler: -68,0
Mii Gunner: -32,5
Mii Swordfighter: -51,0
You can see the matchups for each character here: http://1upsmash.com/topic/8580370/1/?x=0#post8204530 just click in the spoiler were it says "Matchups".
So this is the official Back Room tier list of Brazil and is based on matchups? Looks like it should be added to SmashWiki. I'm surprised to see Mario at #1 (along with Cloud).
 

Ropalme1914

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So this is the official Back Room tier list of Brazil and is based on matchups? Looks like it should be added to SmashWiki. I'm surprised to see Mario at #1 (along with Cloud).
No, it's the community tier list, since we don't have a Back Room yet, but yes, it is based on matchups. However, it will probably be added on the wiki since it is our official tier list for now.
 
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Ethan7

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No, it's the community tier list, since we don't have a Back Room yet, but yes, it is based on matchups. However, it will probably be added on the wiki since it is our official tier list for now.
But it says "Tier List BR v1.0 + MU Charts". But yeah, it could still be added if it's the official one since the most recent official Melee tier list isn't of Back Room but on the wiki.
 

Fenny

Smash Ace
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
584
Today we released the brazillian tier list. It is based only on matchups, so it does not consider our opinions directly on the characters position on the tier list. The matchups are not weighted, so a +1 against Ganondorf has the same valor as a +1 vs Mario. The rating system we used is the -3/-2/-1/0/+1/+2/+3, but you can covert it to the 50/50 system using this:

Advantage of 75/25 or greater -> +3
Advantage of 65/35 or 70/30 -> +2
Advantage of 55/45 or 60/40 -> +1
50/50 -> 0

Then, the score of each character in the tier list is based on this:
Even -> 0 points
+/- 1 -> +/- 1 point
+/- 2 -> +/- 1.5 points
+/- 3 -> +/- 1.75 points

Then we have the tier list:
Observations:
-This tier list is based on the 1.1.6 version
-"/" is an tie in between two characters
-Custom Moves Off
-Miis are 1111 Guest Size
The tier list:
Top Tier
S::4mario:/:4cloud::rosalina::4sheik::4zss::4fox::4diddy::4pikachu:
S-::4sonic::4metaknight::4ryu:
High Tier
A+::4villager::4mewtwo::4greninja::4ness::4yoshi:
A::4tlink::4bayonetta:
A-::4megaman:/:4corrin:
Borderline Tier
B+::4falcon:
B::4olimar::4pit:/:4darkpit::4peach:
B-::4lucario:
Mid Tier
C+::4pacman::4marth::4rob::4wario:
C::4lucina::4gaw::4samus:/:4lucas:
C-::4dedede::4dk::4link:/:4kirby::4palutena::4luigi:/:4myfriends::4shulk:
Low Tier
D+::4duckhunt::4robinm:
D::4bowserjr::4falco:
D-::4bowser::4wiifit::4feroy:/:4miigun:
Bottom Tier
E+::4drmario::4littlemac:
E::4charizard::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
E-::4miibrawl::4ganondorf:
Mario: +49,0
Luigi: -14,5
Peach: +8,0
Bowser: -30,75

Yoshi: +29,5
Rosalina: +48,25
Bowser Jr.: -24,5
Wario: -2,0

DK: -10,5
Diddy: +43,25
G&W: -6,0
Little Mac: -42,5

Link: -11,0
Zelda: -53,0
Sheik: +47,75
Ganon: -70,0

Toon Link: +24,5
samus: -6,5
ZSS: +46,0
Palutena: -13,0

Pit: +10,0
Dark Pit: +10,0
Marth: -0,5
Lucina: -5,5

Ike: -14,5
Robin: -19,75
Duck Hunt: -19,0
Kirby: -11,0

Dedede: -9,0
MK: +40,5
Fox: +45,0
Falco: -25,0

Pikachu: +43,0
Charizard: -49,5
Lucario: +4,0
Jigglypuff: -52,0

Greninja: +31,25
R.O.B: -1,5
Ness: +30,0
Captain Falcon: +13,0

Villager: +33,5
Olimar: +10,25
Wii Fit Trainer: -31,5
Shulk: -15,0

Doc Mario: -38,0
Mega Man: +18,5
Pac Man: 0,0
Sonic: +41,0

Mewtwo: +33,0
Lucas: -6,5
Roy: -32,5
Ryu: +38,5

Cloud: +49,0
Corrin: +18,5
Bayonetta: +24,25

Mii Brawler: -68,0
Mii Gunner: -32,5
Mii Swordfighter: -51,0
You can see the matchups for each character here: http://1upsmash.com/topic/8580370/1/?x=0#post8204530 just click in the spoiler were it says "Matchups".
Interesting.

I mean there are some things that I see as being flat out wrong (Robin in low tier but DDD in mid tier was one thing that made me scratch my head irl) but definitely interesting.
 
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Ffamran

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Footsies is being categorized as a playstyle because characters like chun li kind of originated it with her ridiculous normals, fast walk speed, and ability to control space with just her normals alone, not to mention a fireball as well. footsies are truly a abstract concept thing, so I'm not entirely on board with the categorization either (though I did use it earlier in the thread).

And your boxing idea is one I've thought up as well!
Couldn't she just be considered a zoning character? Keeping people away and controlling space with her normals and Kikoken? Or rushdown depending on how you'd play her... An aside: I still find it a bit funny how in KoF and SF, some characters who are Chinese, German, Thai, or whatever, still have Japanese-named moves. Unrelated to Smash, Chun-Li's like the pre-patch Sheik of Smash 4 where she's touted as this amazing character and while I don't follow SFV much, but she hasn't really won much from what I know, so... IGNORANCE. :p

The boxing style ideas just seems clearer. In-fighting and out-fighting are just simple terms. Rushdown and zoning tends to have some connotation and misconceptions in some communities. Now that I think about it, I really do think the problem isn't how we define them, but the fact there's so many categories that could just be sub-categories like "footsies" which I still consider a concept rather than a style.

If I were to categorize everyone, it would be something like this. Disclaimer: I'm not omniscient and there's 58 freaking characters. I'm not going to be able categorize everyone accurately like, "Hey, Lucario's definitely a *insert category here*!"

In-fighter / "rushdown"
:4bowser:, :4falcon:, :4charizard:, :4cloud:, :4dk:, :4falco:*, :4fox:, :4ganondorf:, :4kirby:, :4littlemac:, :4mario:, :4metaknight:, :4miibrawl:, :4pikachu:, :4feroy:

Boxer-puncher / "all-arounder" / jack of all trades
:4bayonetta:, :4darkpit:, :4diddy:, :4drmario:, :4lucario:, :4lucina:*,:4luigi:*, :4mewtwo:, :4ness:, :4palutena:, :4pit:, :4ryu:, :4samus:, :4sheik:, :4sonic:, :4yoshi:, :4zss:

Out-fighter / zoner
:4corrinf:, :4bowserjr:, :4duckhunt:, :4greninja:, :4myfriends:, :4jigglypuff:, :4dedede:, :4link:, :4lucas:, :4marth:, :4megaman:, :4miigun:, :4miisword:, :4gaw:, :4olimar:, :4pacman:, :4peach:, :4rob:, :4robinf:, :rosalina:, :4shulk:, :4tlink:, :4villagerf:, :4wario2:, :4wiifit:, :4zelda:

First off, asterisks, *, Falco's simple and I explained him already; by design a zoner, but in reality, a rushdown because of his nonexistent zoning. Lucina's in the middle since she can zone, but she can still sort of rushdown. This comes from her not having sour-spots, but because she doesn't have sweet-spots, her zoning isn't as scary as Marth's. Luigi's weird. You'd think in-fighting, right? Luigi actually zones better than Mario and it's mostly because his Fireballs have much lower recovery which makes zoning with his Fireballs less risky. Range is short, but if Luigi needs to challenge you at range with projectiles, he can more easily than Mario can.

Characters I was hesitant on putting: Bowser, Bowser Jr., Charizard, DK, Lucario, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Palutena, Pikachu, Samus, and ZSS. Do I want to explain why? Nope. Do I have to? Can you accurately place 58 characters in categories?

Anyway, if we add in sub-categories, then these would be aside the "main" in-fighter and out-fighter categories.

Counterpuncher / "bait & punish" / "punisher"
:4bayonetta:, :4bowser:, :4falcon:, :4cloud:, :4dk:, :4ganondorf:, :4myfriends:, :4littlemac:, :4marth:, :4mewtwo:, :4feroy:, :4ryu:, :4wario:, :4zelda:, :4zss:

Grappler
:4bowser:, :4dk:, :4myfriends:, :4kirby:, :4lucas:, :4luigi:, :4ness:, :4palutena:, :4rob:, :4robinf:, :4samus:, :4zss:

Slugger a.k.a. the heavyweights; probably the most pointless category...
:4bowser:, :4charizard:, :4dk:, :4ganondorf:, :4dedede:

Has unique hair color; Miis obviously excluded. :p
:4lemmy:, :4villagerf:, :4wiifit:*

WFT's debatable since some say grey, others say it could be black, and then there are people who draw her as a brunette. Oh, and thank Lemmy for having green hair and making Palutena generic. :p

Uncategorized
:4falco:

Best smile
:4pacman:

Still, I think we have better things to do than categorize characters into play styles...
 
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Ropalme1914

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Interesting.

I mean there are some things that I see as being flat out wrong (Robin in low tier but DDD in mid tier was one thing that made me scratch my head irl) but definitely interesting.
That's because of people that representates some characters on our community. Takao, the principal Robin in our discussion, was not very active, but K. Lipe, the principal DDD, was always discussing his matchups, so if he found something wrong, he could argue about that.
 

dakotaisgreat

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Out of curiosity, what makes you keep saying Falco is a zoner by design? Just having a laser doesn't make you a zoner, even if the laser was good. When you compare Falco to Duck Hunt, Olimar, and Mii Gunner there's a very clear difference. Or perhaps my definition of a zoner is too specific. If you have really good melee range like Marth or Charizard you could still be considered a zoner, but Falco doesn't have that either.

So what makes you think that was his intended design?

And yes, we do definitely have better things to do then categorize characters. It doesn't matter if X thinks Charizard is rushdown and Y thinks Charizard is a zoner and Z thinks he is a grappler. That literally doesn't have anything to do with tier lists and is really pretty subjective in many cases. (Not all cases.)
 

Fatmanonice

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So out of curiosity, when does another tier list come out anyways? If people are waiting for a conclusive, fully settled and concrete meta that could take many years. Patches seem to be done, all of the DLC characters are old by now, EVO is finished..

I mean, does anyone even know when another one will get made? Who is in charge of that? This thread could go on for another 562 pages.
For Brawl it was roughly every six months but this game has been much harder to make tier lists for two main reasons: the ginormous cast and huge percentage of characters that are competitively relevant compared to other fighting games and the fact that this game has been fairly faithfully patched and we still have no idea if we've seen the final patch yet. If no new patches are out by the 2nd year anniversary (time flies, eh?) we can safely assume the game is "done" and can think about the game without worrying about the chess board being flipped off the table.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Last things I want to say before moving on is that I don't get how stuff like "footsies" can be considered a play style. Footsies is a concept. It would be like saying Ganondorf is a command grab character. Okay, he has one command grab which he can get a lot of setups, even confirms, and play mind-games with it, but that's not a play style. Or something like Luigi is a mixup character. Are we talking about DJ'ing or fighting? Mixup's a concept not a play style. Mixup can be associated with rushdown and zoning. Also, should we really spend a lot of time on categorizing play styles? Time spent doing something else like I don't know, labbing, would be more beneficial than figuring out exactly where Luigi would fit in all of this.
Couldn't she just be considered a zoning character? Keeping people away and controlling space with her normals and Kikoken? Or rushdown depending on how you'd play her... An aside: I still find it a bit funny how in KoF and SF, some characters who are Chinese, German, Thai, or whatever, still have Japanese-named moves. Unrelated to Smash, Chun-Li's like the pre-patch Sheik of Smash 4 where she's touted as this amazing character and while I don't follow SFV much, but she hasn't really won much from what I know, so... IGNORANCE. :p

The boxing style ideas just seems clearer. In-fighting and out-fighting are just simple terms. Rushdown and zoning tends to have some connotation and misconceptions in some communities. Now that I think about it, I really do think the problem isn't how we define them, but the fact there's so many categories that could just be sub-categories like "footsies" which I still consider a concept rather than a style.

If I were to categorize everyone, it would be something like this. Disclaimer: I'm not omniscient and there's 58 freaking characters. I'm not going to be able categorize everyone accurately like, "Hey, Lucario's definitely a *insert category here*!"

In-fighter / "rushdown"
:4bowser:, :4falcon:, :4charizard:, :4cloud:, :4dk:, :4falco:*, :4fox:, :4ganondorf:, :4kirby:, :4littlemac:, :4mario:, :4metaknight:, :4miibrawl:, :4pikachu:, :4feroy:

Boxer-puncher / "all-arounder" / jack of all trades
:4bayonetta:, :4darkpit:, :4diddy:, :4drmario:, :4lucario:, :4lucina:*,:4luigi:*, :4mewtwo:, :4ness:, :4palutena:, :4pit:, :4ryu:, :4samus:, :4sheik:, :4sonic:, :4yoshi:, :4zss:

Out-fighter / zoner
:4corrinf:, :4bowserjr:, :4duckhunt:, :4greninja:, :4myfriends:, :4jigglypuff:, :4dedede:, :4link:, :4lucas:, :4marth:, :4megaman:, :4miigun:, :4miisword:, :4gaw:, :4olimar:, :4pacman:, :4peach:, :4rob:, :4robinf:, :rosalina:, :4shulk:, :4tlink:, :4villagerf:, :4wario2:, :4wiifit:, :4zelda:

First off, asterisks, *, Falco's simple and I explained him already; by design a zoner, but in reality, a rushdown because of his nonexistent zoning. Lucina's in the middle since she can zone, but she can still sort of rushdown. This comes from her not having sour-spots, but because she doesn't have sweet-spots, her zoning isn't as scary as Marth's. Luigi's weird. You'd think in-fighting, right? Luigi actually zones better than Mario and it's mostly because his Fireballs have much lower recovery which makes zoning with his Fireballs less risky. Range is short, but if Luigi needs to challenge you at range with projectiles, he can more easily than Mario can.

Characters I was hesitant on putting: Bowser, Bowser Jr., Charizard, DK, Lucario, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Palutena, Pikachu, Samus, and ZSS. Do I want to explain why? Nope. Do I have to? Can you accurately place 58 characters in categories?

Anyway, if we add in sub-categories, then these would be aside the "main" in-fighter and out-fighter categories.

Counterpuncher / "bait & punish" / "punisher"
:4bayonetta:, :4bowser:, :4falcon:, :4cloud:, :4dk:, :4ganondorf:, :4myfriends:, :4littlemac:, :4marth:, :4mewtwo:, :4feroy:, :4ryu:, :4wario:, :4zelda:, :4zss:

Grappler
:4bowser:, :4dk:, :4myfriends:, :4kirby:, :4lucas:, :4luigi:, :4ness:, :4palutena:, :4rob:, :4robinf:, :4samus:, :4zss:

Slugger a.k.a. the heavyweights; probably the most pointless category...
:4bowser:, :4charizard:, :4dk:, :4ganondorf:, :4dedede:

Has unique hair color; Miis obviously excluded. :p
:4lemmy:, :4villagerf:, :4wiifit:*

WFT's debatable since some say grey, others say it could be black, and then there are people who draw her as a brunette. Oh, and thank Lemmy for having green hair and making Palutena generic. :p

Uncategorized
:4falco:

Best smile
:4pacman:

Still, I think we have better things to do than categorize characters into play styles...
Quick nitpick; you can't be a zoner without having a projectile.
 

Yoshister

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I feel like the real reason we can't agree on a Smash 4 tier list is because a good chunk of the cast is nowhere near developed enough to form a really solid opinion on.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Every character can zone.

Zoning is just an aspect of basic play for every fighter out there.

It's just that some characters focus more on it.
 

ARGHETH

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Disjoint. I believe disjoint is the term you're looking for. Regardless, his sword is a tool for zoning through and through.
The argument was that you need a projectile to be a zoner and Marth was brought up as a counterargument. Hence, "unreflectable projectile".
 
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