Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Aunt Jemima]

If you even touch a shield with Electroshock you are dying for it. The move only ever has a decent reward on hit when Dark Pit is on 120-150% and it's definitely not close to being safe on shield.

K kid. I am @IsmaR.

 

[juddy96]

Kurobura 1, a 128 player single elim tourney in Kanagawa, Japan just ended.

1) Kamemushi
2) Umeki
3) Yuzu
4) Songn
5) DNG | Nietono
5) taranito
5) Takera
5) Kisha

http://challonge.com/Kurobura1T

 

[bc1910]

So...

I made a matchup sheet for Charizard...

This assumes Mii Fighters are given full reign of their moves.

So... I know that for some this may seem a tad odd, but let me explain some points.

• I didn't even try to to input numbers here. I think that people focus too much on the numbers and not the experience, so I simply labeled them as how easy I think it is.
• I know the first thing you're thinking. There are way too many evenish characters. Well, yeah. This is exactly Charizard's problem. He doesn't lose too hard against most of the cast, but he doesn't do that well either. He's ho-hum. Middle of the road and doesn't excel and the majority of the cast don't find him a problem either. This makes his harder match ups stick out that much more. And he has a lot of bad ones near the top of the food chain. He's not bad. Just not good, and most of the cast is good.
• One might think that projectiles are a amazing plus against Zard like the other heavies, and while they're still annoying, Charizard can deal with them better than the other super heavy weights. Flare Blitz is a horribly underutilized tool. That said, projectiles are still a problem for Charizard, but they need to have one of two properties. One, they have to be REALLY meaty. They have to pack a punch. Think Charge Shot meaty. Those will straight up over power Flare Blitz. They are amazing Flare Blitz punishes. Second, if you can fill the screen with projectiles, Zard is going to have a bad time.Those kinds of projectiles shut Charizard down completely and remove his projectile trumpcard. Anything else can be flare blitzed or armored through. Don't try to space Zard out with Mega Buster or Fireballs.
• Combos are a thing, and they hurt. Zard is big and has few landing options, so combos can REALLY hurt. Speedy characters that can combo can REALLY take advantage of Zard's bad disadvantage state. That being said, if they really want to get in and do damage, they should try attacking from under him. Then Zard truly suffers.
• Charizard actually has a pretty amazing advantaged state. Once Zard is in, he can stay in and you'd be surprised by what combos. Nair to jab to grab is amazing and I love it.
• Characters with a bad or linear recovery have a really big problem against Zard. He can effectively edge guard them without leaving the stage. Flamethrower is never used and I have no idea why. It's Zard's best move by far. It shuts down approaches, its an amazing approaching tool and most importantly, its an incredibly safe recovery. Characters with particularly bad recoveries are forced to mash Up B to not die and high level Zards can use that to their advantage. You have no idea how useful flamethrower to F Smash is against characters like Cloud and Falcon.
• Recovery is not a problem for Charizard. Fly is a great vertical recovery tool and flare blitz can be used to recover long distances quickly. Not to mention, he has two mid air jumps. Charizard should never have a problem getting back to the stage barring player error.

And I'll address some questionablel placements.

: Yes., he combos and hits hard and he's mobile. But he's that easily killed and walled by flamethrower.
: Why is DK so low? It's a really tough issue and if I had to change one thing about the list, it'd be bumping DK up a tier. Basically, he can effectively be walled out and his recovery can be taken advantage of with ease.
: Yes. Yes. I know... But his recovery and lack of killing ability hurt him pretty badly. Still, he's another really iffy one.
: Just has everything he needs to wreak havoc on Zard.
: Yes, Mii Gunner is the devil and she has everything that can shut Charizard down...
: Iffy on them as well. They can combo well, but not so well that it can't be dealt with. Still, I'm iffy so... eh.


I'm willing and eager to answer any questions you guys got.

I don't really have any questions but I like how comprehensive and well-explained this is.

I would like to know where you'd place Zard on a tier list? I actually think he's quite good now.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Kamemushi really is a strong player of MegaMan, i wish he'd come to US for one tour.
Speaking of Kamemushi, let's talk about Megaman, shall we?
Megaman is kind of a weird case to me, because i've always been under the impression that the top Megamans were pushing the boundaries of their character a lot more than most character, watching Scatt, Kamemushi or Daiki makes me feel like this character has a lot of depth. In a way, that's kind of his biggest problem imo. See, Megaman's matchup spread is pretty mixed to say the least, but he has quite a good amount of valuable matchups that would make him a character you'd consider for a secondary, but he's kind of too unorthodox to be played as a secondary.
In terms of his viability on his own, while we've seen & heard about some matchups like Mario Sheik Fox & probably some other i'm forgetting being rather bad, Megaman still managed to get in the spotlight quite often, regardless of the metagame's evolution. MU spreads from the top Megamans seem pretty optimistic, but in some way, they may be right and Megaman's a bigger threat than most people would think. We'll see about that as the metagame evolves more & more.

Also, unrelated to Megaman, but it's nice to see Songn doing well. He hasn't been doing bad at all on the last *** tournaments, getting Top 8 or very close to a lot of recent tournaments, it's nice to see that.
Oh and i've seen Takera play, and it was pretty interesting. At Umebura 22, he's the one who took Earth to losers with a 2-0 including a 2 stock if i remember right. May become a bigger threat as tournaments keep happening.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't really have any questions but I like how comprehensive and well-explained this is.

I would like to know where you'd place Zard on a tier list? I actually think he's quite good now.

High low to Mid mid.

As I said before, Charizard isn't bad, he's just not particularly good.

I think he has a bright future as a pocket character or secondary but he's not going to be winning majors by himself.

 

[HoSmash4]

Kurobura 1, a 128 player single elim tourney in Kanagawa, Japan just ended.

1) Kamemushi
2) Umeki
3) Yuzu
4) Songn
5) DNG | Nietono
5) taranito
5) Takera
5) Kisha

http://challonge.com/Kurobura1T

Was there a stream?

 

[Megamang]

Megaman remids me a lot of Brawl Olimar. He can be outrewarded, and his recovery is gimpable if everything goes right for you, but he makes it all up in neutral. His neutral is dominant and suffocating for many characters, and even in his bad MUs its functional. Scatt's last life is where it gets really hard, because he becomes a mobile pellet wall that can also Iframe through your zone breaker and kill you around TSRK percentages. Also if you land on a slanted platform above you, it cancels all the lag. So don't pick lylat against Megaman. The stage is tilted, but the game isn't so you are still gonna get pellet zoned... but be traveling down or uphill. Also he can use crashbomber as a landmine all over that stage, which makes it very useful in many MUs. Worth mentioning about the move is when it sticks you, Megaman can fish for a kill very efficiently.If you take a crash bomber and pellets on shield, bair will shield poke most characters.


Whenever a MU analysis says 'We have X Tool that hard punishes zoning. So, Megaman can't really zone you with pellets"... no. Stop saying that. Scatt can zone Larry Lurr's fox out with pellets. Flare Blitz, Electroshock, your armored' up B, will not make megaman respect you at all, and if you start throwing it out when he is pelleting (the whole game unless firing another projectile or going for a hit/mixing up timing) then he has already won that situation. Burst hitboxes and gap closers are a little problematic, but nair hitbox is just... so so good, sends you at a bad angle, and you start getting pelleted Immediately. Buffed dash attacks and options that hit after the pellets have hit are also good, but again just armoring thru a pellet is meaningless. Might as well talk about how good a move is at killing pikmin once they are attached without considering how Olimar is going to cover/punish that.

 

[Nobie]

Whenever I think about Mega Man vs. Charizard, I remember that a shot Metal Blade almost always does 3 hits against Charizard. That's 9% damage consistently from a move that never stales. Obviously that's not enough to be a threat by itself, but I can't think of any other character (not even Bowser) who suffers from Metal Blade so much.

What IS scary for Charizard is up air.

 

[Kofu]

So...

I made a matchup sheet for Charizard...

This assumes Mii Fighters are given full reign of their moves.

So... I know that for some this may seem a tad odd, but let me explain some points.

• I didn't even try to to input numbers here. I think that people focus too much on the numbers and not the experience, so I simply labeled them as how easy I think it is.
• I know the first thing you're thinking. There are way too many evenish characters. Well, yeah. This is exactly Charizard's problem. He doesn't lose too hard against most of the cast, but he doesn't do that well either. He's ho-hum. Middle of the road and doesn't excel and the majority of the cast don't find him a problem either. This makes his harder match ups stick out that much more. And he has a lot of bad ones near the top of the food chain. He's not bad. Just not good, and most of the cast is good.
• One might think that projectiles are a amazing plus against Zard like the other heavies, and while they're still annoying, Charizard can deal with them better than the other super heavy weights. Flare Blitz is a horribly underutilized tool. That said, projectiles are still a problem for Charizard, but they need to have one of two properties. One, they have to be REALLY meaty. They have to pack a punch. Think Charge Shot meaty. Those will straight up over power Flare Blitz. They are amazing Flare Blitz punishes. Second, if you can fill the screen with projectiles, Zard is going to have a bad time.Those kinds of projectiles shut Charizard down completely and remove his projectile trumpcard. Anything else can be flare blitzed or armored through. Don't try to space Zard out with Mega Buster or Fireballs.
• Combos are a thing, and they hurt. Zard is big and has few landing options, so combos can REALLY hurt. Speedy characters that can combo can REALLY take advantage of Zard's bad disadvantage state. That being said, if they really want to get in and do damage, they should try attacking from under him. Then Zard truly suffers.
• Charizard actually has a pretty amazing advantaged state. Once Zard is in, he can stay in and you'd be surprised by what combos. Nair to jab to grab is amazing and I love it.
• Characters with a bad or linear recovery have a really big problem against Zard. He can effectively edge guard them without leaving the stage. Flamethrower is never used and I have no idea why. It's Zard's best move by far. It shuts down approaches, its an amazing approaching tool and most importantly, its an incredibly safe recovery. Characters with particularly bad recoveries are forced to mash Up B to not die and high level Zards can use that to their advantage. You have no idea how useful flamethrower to F Smash is against characters like Cloud and Falcon.
• Recovery is not a problem for Charizard. Fly is a great vertical recovery tool and flare blitz can be used to recover long distances quickly. Not to mention, he has two mid air jumps. Charizard should never have a problem getting back to the stage barring player error.

And I'll address some questionablel placements.

: Yes., he combos and hits hard and he's mobile. But he's that easily killed and walled by flamethrower.
: Why is DK so low? It's a really tough issue and if I had to change one thing about the list, it'd be bumping DK up a tier. Basically, he can effectively be walled out and his recovery can be taken advantage of with ease.
: Yes. Yes. I know... But his recovery and lack of killing ability hurt him pretty badly. Still, he's another really iffy one.
: Just has everything he needs to wreak havoc on Zard.
: Yes, Mii Gunner is the devil and she has everything that can shut Charizard down...
: Iffy on them as well. They can combo well, but not so well that it can't be dealt with. Still, I'm iffy so... eh.


I'm willing and eager to answer any questions you guys got.

I'd question Game & Watch's placement but it's not like I'm super experienced in the MU. He is good at juggling/gimping Zard, though.

What I will do is question Olimar's placement. I don't understand the character super well but it seems like he'd be really frustrating for Charizard, partially because I'm thinking that Flare Blitz would be stopped cold by Pikmin Throw. If I'm wrong that would change things a bit. But it feels like he could wall Zard out pretty well.

 

[Routa]

Swamp Sensei

You are pretty much the first person who has placed Miis in their rightful places in Character X MU chart.

Anyways Chard x Swordspider MU is a odd one. Chard has hard time landing against Swordspider and he is in general weak to Swordspider's combos. Swordspider does loose the disjoint fight and has hardish time edgeguarding Chard due to Fly (Rip in Pingas Dair to Footstool). I'm not that great when it comes to explaining, but I agree that it is evenish.

 

[Illuminose]

Just remember that Kurobura was single elimination...I wouldn't take the results too seriously, honestly.

 

[Das Koopa]

So, what have we got this weekend?

EGLX, Midwest Mayhem 2, and Neokan Party. Any Japanese stuff?

 

[Jaguar360]

Kurobura 1, a 128 player single elim tourney in Kanagawa, Japan just ended.

1) Kamemushi
2) Umeki
3) Yuzu
4) Songn
5) DNG | Nietono
5) taranito
5) Takera
5) Kisha

http://challonge.com/Kurobura1T

Single elimination or not, a solo Zelda getting 9th at a 128 player tourney is really impressive. Megaman's also been doing hella good lately and Songn's placing well with G&W as usual. Jiggs in top 32 is also nice to see I guess.

KSB will be a major tournament in Japan this weekend btw guys with people like Ranai, Komo, aMSa, Shogun, Atelier and others. Check the front page. The pools brackets are on juddy's Challonge.

 

[wedl!!]

I find Kamemushi's use of Yoshi as a secondary interesting.

Does anyone know what matchups he used Yoshi for?

 

[MistressRemilia]

I find Kamemushi's use of Yoshi as a secondary interesting.

Does anyone know what matchups he used Yoshi for?

Most likely for Mario & Sheik.
He used Yoshi vs Shuton's Oli as well.

 

[Appledees]

I find Kamemushi's use of Yoshi as a secondary interesting.

Does anyone know what matchups he used Yoshi for?

Judging from his weird matchup chart with Megaman I assume he uses Yoshi for characters like Sheik,Mario,Fox and maybe some other weird choices he's not comfortable with Megaman like Olimar

I can kinda see Yoshi being an alright 2nd tho as far as secondaries go I see alot of megaman players having a Cloud main (Scatt use Cloud sometimes, Kamemushi as well I think?) which is imo a better choice.

 

[sedrf]

https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete
Midwest Mayhem is on right now. It's on crew right now, but singles is soonish(?)

also eglx and Kvo singles much later today:
https://twitter.com/acekingoffsuit/status/725904585861160966
http://challonge.com/users/eglx

 

[Y2Kay]

Mario crew vs Mewtwo crew right now let's gooooo

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can anyone tell me what exactatly this crew battle IS and who's on each team? Smash.gg isn't working right now

 

[sedrf]

The problem I have with tier lists is...

People look at them and decide to pick up a high/top tier. These characters not only get developed way faster than mid-low tiers since everyone is playing them, they also get more stream time/exposure so it only increases the gap. Meanwhile the mid-low tiers dont have much representation and top players usually wont play them. Their metagame doesn't develop. Imagine if ESAM never played Pikachu, no one in their right mind would put him [Pikachu] at Top 8. This is why I love Japanese players; they don't complain. They work on their own characters, they put in the time and get results.

A quote from mr about tier list:
https://twitter.com/mr_rsmash/status/726321473246380032

He also says:

are underrated

 

[ARISTOS]

A quote from mr about tier list:
https://twitter.com/mr_rsmash/status/726321473246380032

Japan has a unique environment where they are mainly playing for pride; there's no money on the line. Top players in the US have $$$ on the line which changes the entire environment.

People don't develop low tiers because it becomes a sunk cost. For all the time you spend playing with Ganon, why not instead learn Mario, outside of fun with the character?

Again, it's easy to say main a poor character in theory. Even Mr. R won't do it in practice.

Luckily for low tier mains, there are some very simple top tiers that can be effective secondaries ()

That said, I've met too many people focused on learning the right technique or picking the right character over improving their mindset or fundamentals

 

[juddy96]

Was there a stream?

No, but Aiba of SHI-G was there, and he will collect the replays to put on their youtube.

 

[Rizen]

The part saying low tiers' metagame doesn't develop is flat out wrong. During the final brawl tier list several previously -4 or -3 MUs became -3 or -2 respectively (DK vs DDD for example). And this was Brawl, a very poorly balanced game compared to SSB4.
I frequent the Link, Zelda and less-so Ganon forums and they're developing the meta all the time.

I wish high tier players wouldn't assume characters are low tier because their meta is underdeveloped. It's usually the players of low characters who actually visit tournaments that admit their main is low (or mid) tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Charizard is mid tier.

People are holding onto what he used to be, and he was low tier before the last two giant buffs he got on patches. He's pretty solidly mid tier.

Ganon on the other hand....yeah he's low tier but ehh at least he's better than his brawl variant.

 

[FullMoon]

A quote from mr about tier list:
https://twitter.com/mr_rsmash/status/726321473246380032

He also says:

are underrated

Considering he lives in the same country as iStudying it's no wonder he'd think Greninja is underrated.

And I actually kinda agree with him on Zelda and Roy. Zelda is still low tier but I don't think she's as terrible as people make her out to be. Roy, I just never really thought he was bad overall, although I do think he's probably the worst FE character.

 

[Nobie]

The more people there are playing a character at a high level, the faster that character develops. It means more people hitting the lab, more people getting exposure, and just more potential to discover and refine. They might not ultimately be a top tier or whatever, but they end up better than they would have been compared to if players just abandon that character.

 

[Y2Kay]

Abadango and istudying are on the same doubles team.


Beautiful........

 

[Nekoo]

Yo! I guess I can make a quick update on my path at my first major.Neokan party.

I was able to get into the top 64! It will be tomorrow. Even if I directly lose I'm ****ing proud for my first tournament (a major even!). 64th for a low-mid level player like me with a supposedly bottom 5 character.

wish me luck

 

[Pazzo.]

Yo! I guess I can make a quick update on my path at my first major.Neokan party.

I was able to get into the top 64! It will be tomorrow. Even if I directly lose I'm ****ing proud for my first tournament (a major even!). 64th for a low-mid level player like me with a supposedly bottom 5 character.

wish me luck

Luck no good on its own, my friend.

"Victory is decided before the fight begins."

Finish strong!

 

[bc1910]

A quote from mr about tier list:
https://twitter.com/mr_rsmash/status/726321473246380032

He also says:

are underrated

He gave some more details about these characters. (Link to his Twitter feed)

"yes greninja is already considered to be pretty good, but I honestly think he's even better than what people give him credit for"

"she's [Zelda] underrated cause she's considered bottom 5, meanwhile she has guarenteed throw combos and decent kill power"

"Roy has the speed + kill power to hold his own vs a lot of chars, he's super hard to play on top level though. He aint amazing [new tweet] but def better than what people give him credit for"

He also said a bunch of stuff about Ryu being overrated. Two tweets in particular sum it up:

"i dont think he's better than zss, bayo, mario, cloud, MK, rosa, sheik, diddy, fox and sonic"

"not saying he's a bad character btw, i think hes 11th or 12th"

I might have to lab Zelda's throw combos some more. I'd written off Dthrow Uair on account of being DI-able but apparently away DI gives her guaranteed Dthrow Bair.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Megaman remids me a lot of Brawl Olimar. He can be outrewarded, and his recovery is gimpable if everything goes right for you, but he makes it all up in neutral. His neutral is dominant and suffocating for many characters, and even in his bad MUs its functional. Scatt's last life is where it gets really hard, because he becomes a mobile pellet wall that can also Iframe through your zone breaker and kill you around TSRK percentages. Also if you land on a slanted platform above you, it cancels all the lag. So don't pick lylat against Megaman. The stage is tilted, but the game isn't so you are still gonna get pellet zoned... but be traveling down or uphill. Also he can use crashbomber as a landmine all over that stage, which makes it very useful in many MUs. Worth mentioning about the move is when it sticks you, Megaman can fish for a kill very efficiently.If you take a crash bomber and pellets on shield, bair will shield poke most characters.


Whenever a MU analysis says 'We have X Tool that hard punishes zoning. So, Megaman can't really zone you with pellets"... no. Stop saying that. Scatt can zone Larry Lurr's fox out with pellets. Flare Blitz, Electroshock, your armored' up B, will not make megaman respect you at all, and if you start throwing it out when he is pelleting (the whole game unless firing another projectile or going for a hit/mixing up timing) then he has already won that situation. Burst hitboxes and gap closers are a little problematic, but nair hitbox is just... so so good, sends you at a bad angle, and you start getting pelleted Immediately. Buffed dash attacks and options that hit after the pellets have hit are also good, but again just armoring thru a pellet is meaningless. Might as well talk about how good a move is at killing pikmin once they are attached without considering how Olimar is going to cover/punish that.

Youd be surprised how often one can get through pellets, and I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not talking out of my ass here. There's a good Mega Man main in the area that I play against frequently so I do know the matchup.

Regardless, the reason I put him in even ish was actually a combination of being combed relatively easily and linear recovery, and the fact that his projectiles aren't as concerning as some of the others on my list.

I'd question Game & Watch's placement but it's not like I'm super experienced in the MU. He is good at juggling/gimping Zard, though.

What I will do is question Olimar's placement. I don't understand the character super well but it seems like he'd be really frustrating for Charizard, partially because I'm thinking that Flare Blitz would be stopped cold by Pikmin Throw. If I'm wrong that would change things a bit. But it feels like he could wall Zard out pretty well.

Only characters with meaty projectiles are good at gimping Zard. Zard's armor will go through any physical attack of GW barring maybe a 9 or Up Smash, which aren't reliable gimping tools.

Flare Blitz does in fact, go through Pikmin Throw, even purples.

 

[juddy96]

Today's big list of tournaments/results, I'll be updating it frequently https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16Y2MBbMnk9dxpeOjcD0ld310FXohxYjrTR8ctlzqr94/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Emblem Lord]

Says Ryu is overrated but puts him exactly where everyone puts him, firmly as an A tier char.

What in the nine hells?

 

[bc1910]

He's still 5th on the current tier list (yes, it's outdated, be that as it may) and 6th on the r/smashbros March tier list. There are many factions who continue to overrate him. Whether you think they're worth listening to is another story, but they're there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

i mean when it comes to Ryu I dont take anyone/anything seriously. When I see vids of supposed "high level" play of Ryus jumping into disjoints and do random guess shoryus to attempt to clench stocks, while missing punishes that are -10 or more on block I am left with no doubt in my mind as to why people feel he shouldnt be 5th.

Seriously you remember when 9b would do full jump nairs vs sword wielders? What in the actual ****?

How a character is perceived is utterly irrelevant. What's important is an accurate understanding of what they are capable of and how they handle match-ups. Which unfortunately is not the case with most tier lists.

Its just a matter of subjectivity vs objectivity and sadly most humans are only capable of the former.

 

[Nekoo]

Thanks for your support guys. Also.Neokan Party Smash GG isn't updated because Smash GG did goes down at some moment. So we have to use old method like good old Paper and Ink.

Also. I don't know if you've saw my other post about Roy. But i never talked about his MU that much because well. I didn't really had any experience and i don't want to talk about thing i don't know jack ****.

But i guess i can breakdown and give my 2cent into some MU i was able to play with experienced and PowerRanked player during the Neokan Party whenever it was during set or just friendlies with them since we had a lot of time Thanks to PM,Rival of Aether and Melee.
I'll try to be objective. But i guess i can be a little optimist. This is my two cent that worth nothing. Roy main might even correct me saying i'm wrong. And i can be wrong.

Let's Begin.

Oh. and in advence. Sorry for my english.

VS :
Little Breakdown: A reaaaaaaallly Hard MU. Peach will overflow and block any of Roy's approach. You have to play really carefully against Peach. Roy being a combo fooder don't help at all. And then we have Turnip. A.K.A Vegetable of Mass Destruction that Gimp Roy really easily.
Result of the MU : 60:40 /65:35 for Peach.

VS:
Little Breakdown: This is Hell. This is truly Hell. YOU CAN'T and i mean it. YOU CAN'T miss your neutral and approach against him. Roy being a fastfaller, Not the biggest recovery it's perfect for Ryu and his Up-tilt lock, his fast frame data, true shoryu... This is Hell for Roy. You will need to play carefully.
Result of the MU: 65:35/70:30 for Ryu

VS
Little Breakdown: Okay. This is strange. Like really strange. This MU isn't horrible at all. Roy can overflow Cloud. Thanks to his speed,juggle game And N-air breaking his projectile ( And a lot of projectile by the way.) He won't let him charge his Limit. And the moment Cloud will get his Limit is most likely the moment he will be already off-stage. Still. You don't need to underestimate Cloud. His Neutral game is still fantastic. But the moment Roy touch him his adventage state against Cloud is really big and he can kill him Really early.
Result of the MU: 50:50/55:45 For Roy

VS ( Also Vs:)
Little BreakDown: I know i shoudn't get on the heavies are bad bandwagon. And DK is FAAAAAR from bad. But here, Roy shine soo much i need to wear sunglasse bro. Roy advantage state is magnificent in this MU, The juggle game is soo strong that you can almost finish a stock without letting DK getting back into the stage. Just play safe and clean against their range and raw power and you'll get it.
Result of the MU: 60:45 For Roy

VS
Little BreakDown: Maybe my favorite MU to play. Not because Roy is better or anyting. Just because i love how this MU Goes. Lucario will get really fast his Aura thanks to Roy racking up Damage reallt fast. And then suddently begin the game of who will do the first mistake? Roy can kill early and Lucario can too thanks to Aura+Rage.
Result of the MU: 50:50

VS
Little Breakdown: This MU is from my experience hard for Roy since Shulk have a better overal range and great option thanks to his Monado. But it's still possible to Roy to win.
Result of the MU:55:45/ 60:40 for Shulk


Thus are the MU where i think i have a good idea. Since i played a lot of people who played those character or just played a lot of set against the same people. Of course i might be wrong. It's only my idea about those.

 

[TurboLink]

So...

I made a matchup sheet for Charizard...

This assumes Mii Fighters are given full reign of their moves.

So... I know that for some this may seem a tad odd, but let me explain some points.

• I didn't even try to to input numbers here. I think that people focus too much on the numbers and not the experience, so I simply labeled them as how easy I think it is.
• I know the first thing you're thinking. There are way too many evenish characters. Well, yeah. This is exactly Charizard's problem. He doesn't lose too hard against most of the cast, but he doesn't do that well either. He's ho-hum. Middle of the road and doesn't excel and the majority of the cast don't find him a problem either. This makes his harder match ups stick out that much more. And he has a lot of bad ones near the top of the food chain. He's not bad. Just not good, and most of the cast is good.
• One might think that projectiles are a amazing plus against Zard like the other heavies, and while they're still annoying, Charizard can deal with them better than the other super heavy weights. Flare Blitz is a horribly underutilized tool. That said, projectiles are still a problem for Charizard, but they need to have one of two properties. One, they have to be REALLY meaty. They have to pack a punch. Think Charge Shot meaty. Those will straight up over power Flare Blitz. They are amazing Flare Blitz punishes. Second, if you can fill the screen with projectiles, Zard is going to have a bad time.Those kinds of projectiles shut Charizard down completely and remove his projectile trumpcard. Anything else can be flare blitzed or armored through. Don't try to space Zard out with Mega Buster or Fireballs.
• Combos are a thing, and they hurt. Zard is big and has few landing options, so combos can REALLY hurt. Speedy characters that can combo can REALLY take advantage of Zard's bad disadvantage state. That being said, if they really want to get in and do damage, they should try attacking from under him. Then Zard truly suffers.
• Charizard actually has a pretty amazing advantaged state. Once Zard is in, he can stay in and you'd be surprised by what combos. Nair to jab to grab is amazing and I love it.
• Characters with a bad or linear recovery have a really big problem against Zard. He can effectively edge guard them without leaving the stage. Flamethrower is never used and I have no idea why. It's Zard's best move by far. It shuts down approaches, its an amazing approaching tool and most importantly, its an incredibly safe recovery. Characters with particularly bad recoveries are forced to mash Up B to not die and high level Zards can use that to their advantage. You have no idea how useful flamethrower to F Smash is against characters like Cloud and Falcon.
• Recovery is not a problem for Charizard. Fly is a great vertical recovery tool and flare blitz can be used to recover long distances quickly. Not to mention, he has two mid air jumps. Charizard should never have a problem getting back to the stage barring player error.

And I'll address some questionablel placements.

: Yes., he combos and hits hard and he's mobile. But he's that easily killed and walled by flamethrower.
: Why is DK so low? It's a really tough issue and if I had to change one thing about the list, it'd be bumping DK up a tier. Basically, he can effectively be walled out and his recovery can be taken advantage of with ease.
: Yes. Yes. I know... But his recovery and lack of killing ability hurt him pretty badly. Still, he's another really iffy one.
: Just has everything he needs to wreak havoc on Zard.
: Yes, Mii Gunner is the devil and she has everything that can shut Charizard down...
: Iffy on them as well. They can combo well, but not so well that it can't be dealt with. Still, I'm iffy so... eh.


I'm willing and eager to answer any questions you guys got.

So what exactly is it about Ryu that gives Charizard so many problems in your opinion?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So what exactly is it about Ryu that gives Charizard so many problems in your opinion?

Well, not so many problems. The matchup is just in his favor. It's definately doable.

Regardless, he has amazing combo ability and has enough power to actually kill Charizard relatively early.

Why do you ask?

 

[TurboLink]

Well, not so many problems. The matchup is just in his favor. It's definately doable.

Regardless, he has amazing combo ability and has enough power to actually kill Charizard relatively early.

Why do you ask?

I was curious. I didn't think it would be considered to be that bad.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I was curious. I didn't think it would be considered to be that bad.

Well, it's not.

Perhaps the difficult label is a bit misleading, but its in Ryu's favor.