Meta Shields in Smash4 / 1.1.1>

[Shaya]

This is also a stub topic.

Shields in Smash4 1.1.1
1-3: Perfect Shield
4-11: Locked into shield (8 frames minimum) ~
12-18: Shield drop lag (7 frames)

Shield Lock frames does not restrict your ability to use the natural out of shield options such as rolls, spot dodge or jump (and things you can jump cancel).

Perfect Shields are now active only frames 1-3, down from 1-4 in 1.1.0 and earlier

Shield stun now overlaps with shield lock frames in the 1.1.1 patch;
any attack dealing 10.5% or above will result in defender not receiving any locking after shield stun [?]

Hit Lag received by the defender (shield hit lag) now matches that of the attacker;
Attacks with hit lag modifiers below 1.0 no longer receive safety bonuses, those above 1.0 (or 1.25 from 1.1.0 patch) are conversely safer than before.
Attacks with an electric attribute apply an multiplicative 1.5x hit lag modifier, these are now also affecting the defender

Attacker hit lag reductions on shield from the 1.1.0 patch were NOT reverted.

Perfect Shielding

• Allows standard attacks to be executed without shield drop lag
• Dashing (or other movement) still incurs shield drop lag, but negates shield lock.
• Reduces shield stun received from the attack by 25% [?]
• Negates shield damage and shield push back

Shield Stun in Brawl/Smash4 pre 1.1.1 : floor(damage / 2.56)
Shield Stun in 1.1.1 : floor(damage / 1.72) + 2
OR floor(damage / 3.44) + 2 for projectiles.


~ = previous consideration, should still be accurate
[?] = current assumption

Thanks to @Big O for a lot of corrections / first findings.
Thanks to @Zapp Branniglenn for the stun divisor clarification.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wait, attacks with higher hitstun mods aren't as effective somehow? You mean they're not as safe relative to everything else, but still gained from the change?

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm pretty sure perfect shielding is 1-3.

 

[Ulevo]

Why are the frames where you are locked into shield 6 frames minimum and not 7? Shouldn't it be 7 if we are counting frames 5-11, the same how it is 7 frames for frames 12-18 for shield drop lag?

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm pretty sure perfect shielding is 1-3.

I heard that was like that in Brawl due to an iffy timer. Either way you can test it against frame four moves and it'll give you a perfect shield.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Shaya

Can you please list fox's aerial safetiness?

I'm interested to see how safe fox's aerials are in this game with the shield stun increase

Bair should be safe on shield due to how easy it is to auto cancel the move

Nair should also be safe since it's 11 frames of ending lag which 3.5 more frames then fox's l canceled nair in melee which was a whooping 7.5 frame of ending lag. yeah 3.5 frames is alot but still.

Maybe there's more to this then meet's the eye.

 

[Shaya]

If you start Ike's jab or DK's aerial Up B and hold shield at the same time, a powershield occurs. Both attacks hit on frame 4, so it is pretty easy to confirm this.

It may have also been intended to be 4 frames in Brawl, but the way the engine handled timers probably made the powershield window 3 frames in that game.

Pikabunz

Why are the frames where you are locked into shield 6 frames minimum and not 7? Shouldn't it be 7 if we are counting frames 5-11, the same how it is 7 frames for frames 12-18 for shield drop lag?

I'm spending way too much time around crazy paradigms where +1 and -1s are and differences between numbers are either one way or the other; sanity is definitely going poor places. Fixed.

 

[Ulevo]

Consequently Shaya, I am assuming you are saying that any move with damage of 7% or higher will make the blocker not go into shield lock because the shield stun frames overlap the 7 shield lock frames? If that is true, it needs be 9% in order to coincide with your new formula.

9/1.75+2 = 7.142 ~

 

[Pikabunz]

I just tried Ike's jab, DK's aerial upb, and Pikachu's uair. None of them gave me a perfect shield.

 

[Shaya]

I don't want to boot up my wii tonight over this (3am), but a secondary/tertiary clarification will be all I need.

 

[Ulevo]

So if I am understanding this correctly Shaya

1: Player 1 hits the Player 2 on frame 5 of the shield being up with a move that does say 6 frames of shield stun or less, Player 2 will still need to wait until frame 11 to resolve before they can act on frame 12, because the shield stun frames are resolving as the shield lock frames are at the same time and the shield lock frames are longer.

2: Player 1 hits player 2 on frame 5 of the shield being up with a move that does 8 frames of shield stun or more, Player 2 will have to wait 4 frames to account for being past the Perfect Shield window, plus however many frames of shield stun the move has. In the case of a move that has 10 frames of shield stun, they would be in their shield for 14 frames.

3: Player 1 hits Player 2 on a frame later than 5 of the shield being up with a move that induces shield stun, and as long as that move's shield stun duration lasts longer than the shield lock window, it will add frames to how long they are locked in the shield? i.e. If hit a player on frame 5 in their shield with a move that has 13 frames of shield stun, they would not be able to act until frame 19, but if I hit them with that same move on frame 8 of their shield within the shield lock window, they cannot act until frame 22.

Are my assumptions correct?

EDIT: I will try it myself, the perfect shield window I mean.

 

[Adamas]

So from what I can tell, shields are no longer as viable as they were in 1.1.0, and, due to this, grabs have become less important. Am I correct in this assumption?

 

[Amadeus9]

Made a chart. Min time is if you hit shield at frame 11 or later of shield active frames. Max is if you hit at frame 5. This is time from shield is hit > to shield is fully dropped. I didn't even bother with perfect shield calcs lol.

I used this for the 1.1.1 shield stun numbers: https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

Edit: meh, shields are weird. Ulevo describes changes better than me.

 

[Locke 06]

Does the 20% self hitlag reduction on shield for moves with >1.0 hitlag modifiers from the last patch no longer apply? (or is self hitlag on shield the same as self hitlag on hit?)

 

[Amadeus9]

Based on these numbers (assuming my math is correct) holding shield is more dangerous than before, but barely missing the perfect shield window is more safe than in 1.1.0 as long as the percentage dealt by the attack is less than 19. This is if you do a shield drop. Oos options are generally nerfed by the higher minimum shield stun time.

 

[Ulevo]

The perfect shield window is on frame 3. I am getting one with Meta Knight's down tilt which is frame 3, but not Ike's jab, which is frame 4.

 

[Shaya]

Tid bit implication theory:

Moves have more shield stun, but they are now eating up shield lock frames.

Let's take sheik's fair pre patch, 1 frame of shield stun.
If she hit you on frame 4 (i.e. you missed power shield), she was getting an "extra 7 frames" of shield stun.

Now the shield stun of the move is 4 frames
but if she hits you on frame 4; she's now only getting "3 extra frames" of shield stun, albeit the overall advantage from hitting a shield on frame 4 is exactly the same.

Ganondorf Forward Air now has 12 frames of shield stun. up from 7.
If ganon hits fair on a frame 4 shield, he was getting an extra 7 frames too, totaling 14 frames of shield stun.
Now ganondorf's just got a total of 12, down over all.
But if you're hitting on frame 5 instead, it's getting even more favourable for ganon's higher damage.

i.e. Sheik was feasibly getting a 8x shield stun modifier on her forward air prior to 1.1.1 if she was really lucky
Ganondorf was getting 2.0x modifier in comparison on his forward air; with likely less luck because it's a 14 frame move in contrast to 5.
Now Sheik is getting 1.75x modifier if she's lucky, Ganondorf is 0.85x but that's a lot less of a comparative dive.

Anyway... bed I think.

Ulevo, I think you're inferring correctly. Maybe the above helps.

 

[Amadeus9]

Tid bit implication theory:

Moves have more shield stun, but they are now eating up shield lock frames.

Let's take sheik's fair pre patch, 1 frame of shield stun.
If she hit you on frame 4 (i.e. you missed power shield), she was getting an "extra 7 frames" of shield stun.

Now the shield stun of the move is 4 frames
but if she hits you on frame 5; she's now only getting "3 extra frames" of shield stun, albeit the overall advantage from hitting a shield on frame 4 is exactly the same.

Ganondorf Forward Air now has 12 frames of shield stun. up from 7.
If ganon hit's fair on a frame 4 shield, he was getting an extra 7 frames too, totaling 14 frames of shield stun.
Now ganondorf's just got a total of 12, down over all.
But if you're hitting on frame 5 instead, it's getting even more favourable for ganon's higher damage.

i.e. Sheik was feasibly getting a 8x shield stun modifier on her forward air prior to 1.1.1 if she was really lucky
Ganondorf was getting 2.0x modifier in comparison on his forward air; with likely less luck because it's a 14 frame move in contrast to 5.
Now Sheik is getting 1.75x modifier if she's lucky, Ganondorf is 0.85x but that's a lot less of a comparative dive.

Anyway... bed I think.

Ulevo, I think you're inferring correctly. Maybe the above helps.

That's what my calcs are saying.

... damn this patch is weird.

I just have to move the numbers for maximum stun around because perfect shield is 1-3 instead of 1-4.

 

[Locke 06]

To elaborate and clarify Shaya's post, the 7 frames extra "shield stun" Sheik got for hitting shield on f5 pre-patch because of shield lock frames and stun frames not overlapping is not actual shield stun. You could roll, or use OoS options, but you could not shield drop (locked in shield).

 

[Shaya]

That's what my calcs are saying.

... damn this patch is weird.

I just have o move the numbers for maximum stun around because perfect shield is 1-3 instead of 1-4.

More shield stun but it's really only beneficial for an attacker hitting shields that have been held up past shield lock frames. This is excluding dodges/jump actions oos though.

This is a solid adjustment to making wifi a lot less unbearable/inconsistent; at least from my experiences thus far. It's probably not as big overall on top level/offline play as we'd be thinking.

To elaborate and clarify Shaya's post, the 7 frames extra "shield stun" Sheik got for hitting shield on f5 pre-patch because of shield lock frames and stun frames not overlapping is not actual shield stun. You could roll, or use OoS options, but you could not shield drop (locked in shield).

This is why I should go to bed.

 

[Luigi player]

In Smash 4 a powershield has always been from frame 1-4.
Have I been fooled by faulty testing, or has it been changed by the update? It doesn't seem to be like that anymore now.

Edit: guess they changed it, bummer.

 

[Remzi]

To elaborate and clarify Shaya's post, the 7 frames extra "shield stun" Sheik got for hitting shield on f5 pre-patch because of shield lock frames and stun frames not overlapping is not actual shield stun. You could roll, or use OoS options, but you could not shield drop (locked in shield).

This is a very important distinction that I was not aware of. Thanks.

 

[Flamecircle]

"Hit Lag received by the defender (shield hit lag) now matches that of the attacker;"

What was it before?

Was it that the hitlag modifier did not affect the Defender?

And how does this affect megaman's pellets and charge shot? They have < 1 hitlag modifiers, but they're projectiles.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

"Hit Lag received by the defender (shield hit lag) now matches that of the attacker;"

What was it before?

Was it that the hitlag modifier did not affect the Defender?

Hitlag modifier did not affect the defender, who always received 1.0x hitlag on shield. In 1.1.0, this remained true, but hitlag for the attacker was modified if striking a shield, being divided by 1.25 if it was greater than 1.0x (to a minimum of 1.0x). That change has now been reverted [?] and replaced with the new shield hitlag behaviour.

 

[Flamecircle]

Hitlag modifier did not affect the defender, who always received 1.0x hitlag on shield. In 1.1.0, this remained true, but hitlag for the attacker was modified if striking a shield, being divided by 1.25 if it was greater than 1.0x (to a minimum of 1.0x). That change has now been reverted [?] and replaced with the new shield hitlag behaviour.

Thanks for the clarification.
So how does this affect projectiles with hitlag modifiers? If hitlag modifiers didn't affect the defender in the past, then what was the point of having modifiers on projectiles?

 

[Shouxiao]

So basically the Shield Stun is even more than DX/Melee now. A more offensive meta now it seems.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Thanks for the clarification.
So how does this affect projectiles with hitlag modifiers? If hitlag modifiers didn't affect the defender in the past, then what was the point of having modifiers on projectiles?

Correction: hitlag multipliers didn't affect a shielding defender. Someone who was hit received freeze frames (hitlag) for the same duration as the attacker, unless the attack was a projectile in which case the attacker received no hitlag whatsoever.

 

[Baskerville]

I'm curious to ask, how much does Falco benefit from this?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Here is an excellent table of frame advantage on shield hit vs. aerials assembled by Xygonn who really deserves props for his work:
http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-grab-vs-aerials.407971/
Anything below 4 means you basically can't shield grab since spot dodge will win. Essentially the entire cast now has to grapple (pun intended) with not being able to shield grab a whole host of moves. It's as though everyone inherited Samus' disadvantage to some degree. Looking at previous versions you can see how titanic a change this is.

 

[Yikarur]

Thanks for this thread. It was annoying that the patch thread was flooded with shield stun posts

 

[~ Gheb ~]

TShield Stun in 1.1.1 : floor(damage / 1.75) + 2 [?] (miscounting considerations prior; was thought +3 earlier)

Can somebody explain where a move's hitlag modifier becomes part of the equation?

 

[Sabaca]

OP should mention that perfect shield went from 1-4 to 1-3.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Can someone explain/send me to someone who can explain, exactly what was changed in regards to hitlag and how hitlag adds into the equation?

 

[John12346]

I have a question too. Apparently something was done to make perfect shields more effective? Something about hitlag for the attacker being increased to match the defender?

I'm trying to figure out where I read this, but does anyone have any information?

 

[ぱみゅ]

THis one could be relevant: https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true
Credits to the Sonic Boards.

 

[FullMoon]

Man this whole situation with shield is leaving me so confused.

 

[Nu~]

So are projectiles safer or are they less safe on shield?

I'm way too confused by all of this

 

[Meru.]

I assume values are still rounded down?

 

[wizrad]

This is a massive change. For the better? I wish it was so, but the game just wasn't balanced for this. So many sub mid-tier characters get very nerfed by this, from what I understand. We need another patch soon. preferably containing wolf and meta crystal

 

[Xygonn]

Here is an excellent table of frame advantage on shield hit vs. aerials assembled by Xygonn who really deserves props for his work:
http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-grab-vs-aerials.407971/
Anything below 4 means you basically can't shield grab since spot dodge will win. Essentially the entire cast now has to grapple (pun intended) with not being able to shield grab a whole host of moves. It's as though everyone inherited Samus' disadvantage to some degree. Looking at previous versions you can see how titanic a change this is.

There are probably some errors in the table for multihit moves.