20XX ANTI WOBBLE SHIFTING HITSTUN TECH! ( is this the end of the infamous infinite

[crispfish]

so basically it happened in a friendly the other day with my training partner and friend who secondaries ics but he has perfect wobbling and can basically convert any grab into a wobble even sometimes at 0%

so ill just explain what happened while i was getting wobbled because i broke the wobble with whatever i did:

so first off what is wobbling - desynch popo pummel into nana ftilt or dtilt ( depending ) the hitstun never ends


welp... after thinking we as a community nearly understood all of the games physics we still have alot to discover

SO I NEED HELP EXPLAINING CUZ I DIDNT TEST THIS WITH DOLPHIN YET SO HERE I GO:

while i was being pummeled i held the cstick inward ( as in towards the ics ) after 6 or so pummels the wobble was automatically dropped

so let me explain what we observed: when i held inward it decreased the hitstun of each individual pummel aka grab and press a

we are almost 110% positive wobbling will break after half a dozen or so pummels if you hold in with the cstick
i dont know about other dircetional cues or di in grab hold mechanics (like yoshi etc.)
but this could be a big impact on ics grab game



still things to consider

- flyamanita and other ics choose not to wobble, how importat is wobbling really when people like fly are placing top2 at regionals

- aside from the controversial aspect reduced with the idea that players simply hold in with cstick during the infinite
what will we learn about di in grab mechanics since obviously theres still weird melee physics stuff to discover

- additional testing would be much appreciated since wobbling has been a mental block in the community for as long as anyone could remember

thanks for the time, i hope you will be as fascinated as i was when i saw the wobbling stopped after i did this mechanic

sorry i dont have a recording setup so i cudnt upload but i will do this over the weekend when i smash again with him unless anyone around would like to post a video of this grab break mechanic

 

[creep]

Either you've discovered you can asdi out of wobbles, or your friend is actually not very good at wobbling. Either way, no harm in further investigation.

 

[crispfish]

Either you've discovered you can asdi out of wobbles, or your friend is actually not very good at wobbling. Either way, no harm in further investigation.

yes is asdi what goes on during yoshis grab break thing or am i confusing that with just normal mashing out of a characters grab

not to versed in the subject but if we get more swf junkies on this or frame data testers im sure we can figure this out lol

 

[Pengie]

Based @ Kadano pls help

 

[Kadano]

not to versed in the subject but if we get more swf junkies on this or frame data testers im sure we can figure this out lol

Based @ Kadano pls help

Took me quite long to find out how the wobbling timing works, haha.
Here is what I did:
1. Load up SSBM 1.02 in develop mode
2. Select Ice Climbers and Fox
3. Grab the Fox at 0% with Popo, Nana grabs as well but her grab whiffs
4. From now on, Fox constantly holds C-stick in.
5. Wobble by pressing forward+A whenever one of the Ice Climbers has reached frame 14 of his attack (pummel / forward tilt) animation.

Result: After the start of the wobbling, Fox never left his CaptureDamage animation. At 100%, the Fox was still locked. I didn’t bother looking further because I don’t see a reason why it should behave differently at higher percent.

Interpretation: Your friend messed up. C-stick in has no effect.

 

[FlamingForce]

Thank you Kadano.
Was scared for a moment there.

 

[Bones0]

@ Kadano
Did you try rotating the C-stick counterclockwise while mashing up on the D-pad?

 

[crispfish]

damn kadano ruining everyones fun

that was still the most innocent post in the history of swf tho GGs

also gotta love the marth knowledge this man has

 

[HodgyDot]

Took me quite long to find out how the wobbling timing works, haha.
Here is what I did:
1. Load up SSBM 1.02 in develop mode
2. Select Ice Climbers and Fox
3. Grab the Fox at 0% with Popo, Nana grabs as well but her grab whiffs
4. From now on, Fox constantly holds C-stick in.
5. Wobble by pressing forward+A whenever one of the Ice Climbers has reached frame 14 of his attack (pummel / forward tilt) animation.

Result: After the start of the wobbling, Fox never left his CaptureDamage animation. At 100%, the Fox was still locked. I didn’t bother looking further because I don’t see a reason why it should behave differently at higher percent.

Interpretation: Your friend messed up. C-stick in has no effect.

Thanks mate,

 

[Mikeyy]

Yeah, that doesn't work.
Your friend just missed the timing.

 

[S2rulL]

HOORAY FOR WOBBLING.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Fcuking haters going to hate on the GODWOBBLING

 

[NJzFinest]

How to stop wobbling:

-Petition to have it officially banned again.

-Counterpick ICs with ICs.

 

[FlamingForce]

Or you know, kill Nana.

 

[NJzFinest]

Damn I forgot that one.

Edit- wait nooo. The 2 I listed are foolproof when grabbed by 2 climbers.

 

[FlamingForce]

Scrubby. :|

 

[NJzFinest]

Moneymatch

 

[FlamingForce]

To prove what exactly?
Wobbling is fine, people need to stop complaining about it, there's no need to nerf a borderline viable character.

Also you might want to add "go peach" or something to your list, works fine too.

 

[Max?]

**** wobbling and all those who use it.

 

[Thor]

**** wobbling and all those who use it.

Says a guy who's located at Falco's Bair. Please.

They're not the best, even if they can zero-death with a grab. That's Meta Knight Fox (or Falco depending on who you ask).

 

[DerfMidWest]

ICs are still garb.
Just be better and stop whining.
I'm not sittin over here trying to get peach's down smash or fox's shine banned.
Or rest. That's basically wobbling but fast.

 

[S2rulL]

**** wobbling and all those who use it.

I can taste the salty tears from here.

 

[S2rulL]

How to stop wobbling:

-Petition to have it officially banned again.

-Counterpick ICs with ICs.

Orrrrrrr...

Get good and stop ********?

 

[NJzFinest]

Hi S2rulL. I'm not even complaining. All I did was list ways to stop wobbling, seeing how this is a Anti-Wobbling thread.

You can moneymatch me too ******.

 

[DerfMidWest]

the anti-wobbling stuff is over, like it's unbanned now, and it's going to stay that way, because it doesn't even do that much more for the character in most matchups. If it actually did, you'd see us winning tournaments.
It's boring as hell to watch, but it's hard to set up (wobbling set ups are actually really awesome to watch)

It's basically like puff's rest, but it's slower and more subject to error.

 

[NJzFinest]

I'm fine with wobbling being legal, but do you really think Wobbles would of gotten 2nd at Evo without it? Apex had it banned and Wobbles did infact almost beat M2K. M2K was using Fox and Peach, 2 of the hardest characters to grab as ICs, and Wobbles landed more than enough grabs. He didn't have wobbling to autoclear the stocks though. He definitely would have won that set with wobbling.

Despite how lame it is, I think it's kinda nice that ICs have it again. I remember there was a time IC players had to resort to insanely hard hand off combos that almost always failed cause of characters that couldn't be down throw + nana Dair stringed.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think wobbles would have done roughly the same. He made the decision that Evo would be his last tournament months before it happened, and he trained his **** out for it because of that.
Wobbling definitely makes a difference, especially in certain MUs, but it doesn't make so much of a difference that if affects the overall rank of the character.
Also just getting a grab does not automatically equate to getting a wobble, the two things aren't the same.

but again, wobbling is comparable to resting with puff. It sucks when it happens, it's usually a stock, but it's avoidable unless the player works really hard to get a set-up for it. You shouldn't get rested 4 stocks in a row, nor should you get wobbled 4 stocks in a row. They are punishes to mistakes or matchup ignorance.
Rest is frame 1 though, but w/e.

 

[shuall]

I noticed a lot of commentators also don't recognize that just because you're jab->tilting doesn't mean you have the wobble. You have to wait 5-6 hits, and if they're still in after that, then they're stuck (barring IC error).

Tiny little differences in startup timing can mean that you don't actually have the wobble. I can usually feel when my startup wasn't perfect, and it's a tense 5-6 hits while I try to even the rhythm difference, and check if the other char pops out.

edit: woah, late-night zombie posting. Should have checked how old the thread is. Just saw it at the top.
edit2: anyone else looking for example, here's wobbles at evo 2013 with 4 hits (granted the first one's a jab) that shroomed pops out of.

 

[Myougi]

There are so many variables that must be set to have wobbling work, it's so silly. As Derf.MW said, it's basically like Puff's rest with more subject to error.

Also, before somebody complains that you can't punish it, most characters can. Nana is almost in the perfect place most of the time - still stuck in her grabbing animations/f-tilt animation - so a character like Marth or Fox can easily desync her and then combo her to death.

Going for wobbles sacrifices your neutral game, and tons of Ice Climber players don't do it solely for that reason. That said, lots of Icies preform well without Wobbling, notably Nintendude, ChuDat, and of course Fly Amanita. Wobbles himself doesn't use the technique much in tournament anymore.

Edit: Since this is a 'end of the infinite' thread, I might as well mention that with frame perfect mashing before 60% you can get out of a wobble.

 

[Tomber]

Going for wobbles sacrifices your neutral game, and tons of Ice Climber players don't do it solely for that reason. That said, lots of Icies preform well without Wobbling, notably Nintendude, ChuDat, and of course Fly Amanita. Wobbles himself doesn't use the technique much in tournament anymore.

Yeah, well, that isn't really true. It's just a matter of how well wobbling is implemented in your game.
That's kind of like saying that the Fox player sacrifices his neutral game by trying to use double shining.
With enough practice going for wobbling can be just as "normal" as any grab.

And Nintendude and ChuDat are using wobbling. Fly wants to use it more. The thing is just that none of them have implemented it fully which arguable affects their neutral game. It will get better with practice.

 

[S2rulL]

Hi S2rulL. I'm not even complaining. All I did was list ways to stop wobbling, seeing how this is a Anti-Wobbling thread.

You can moneymatch me too ******.

If you wanna come to the UK and mm me be my guest.

 

[DerfMidWest]

This thread is silly.
Like who doesn't know the saying "don't get grabbed," it's the generic phrase thrown out when playing against ICs.
If you're getting grabbed, and especially if you get grabbed and then wobbled, it's due to one or more of these three things:

1) Poor neutral game
2) Lack of experience/poor technical execution (i.e. missed L-cancels, poor spacing, etc.)
3) Lack of matchup knowledge (i.e. not SDIing out of blizzards or panic shielding)

all three of those things are the responsibility of the player. You can work on all of those to avoid getting grabbed, and thus, avoid getting wobbled.The ICs don't have any inescapable grab setups, so if people would take the time to actually learn the matchup, rather than just ******** about it, they would be able to escape/avoid all of them.
~peace~

 

[NJzFinest]

Guess I'll complain now.
So ICs are bad and you shouldn't ever get wobbled by them? I could basically say Donkey Kong should never get a grab combo on because X character has all the tools to never get grabbed, therefore blah blah. Lol people will get grabbed regardless of the matchup as long as players are of a relevant skill level. It's impossible to play Melee perfectly; a Fox doesn't win every tournament.
No other grab heavy character has a guaranteed stock, especially from any %. Since any decent ICs will definitely end up getting a few grabs, of course people will *****. Wobbling is fine staying legal but it's lame.

S2rulL come to Apex.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Donkey kong shouldn't get a grab combo on a character that has the tools to get around getting grabbed lmao.
but people play dumb and don't know the matchup and don't gay you out, so you get to grab them for their mistake.
it's pretty simple, tbh.
But yeah wobbling is lame, but when you're playing to win, w/e. be lame as hell. whatever brings you home the money.


anyway, wobbling still isn't a guaranteed stock, you said yourself, we're subject to human error. nana is also a *****, so she likes to be synced slightly off so that it looks like she's synced correctly, but really isn't, and you start wobbling and it looks all fine and dandy then they kinda just pop out and you're like "oh."
anyway, I know I, personally, have a problem with tempos, as do a lot of IC players (namely, Fly)
I also occasionally have an issue trying to convert wobbles into a kill, due to input/timing error, because the timing to kill with a smash attack out of a wobble is actually surprisingly specific.

but like I said, these are examples of player error, just because you get grabbed, and even if a wobble is set up, does not mean you are actually getting wobbled.

basically none of the high tiers should actually get grabbed by the ICs though, unless ICs work really hard and get a hard read or a tech-chase. I stand by that statement.
but people are bad.

 

[NJzFinest]

Lol people getting grabbed by DK isn't because of lack of experience. It's because he has a great grab range and decent enough tools to get in grabs. Grabbing in general is just really really good in this game series. People get read, outspaced, and outsmarted much more than anything. ICs have good ways to get grabs in, if they didn't the character wouldn't be high tier. Hell, a Pichu that can't get a single grab off a Fox is definitely a bad Pichu player (or is being featured in a TAS combo video).

Your 3 point reasons of getting grabbed by ICs is awful. Someone can have a great neutral game, good experience, and matchup knowledge but still end up getting grabbed. Why? Cause the enemy IC player might actually be good at smash. This is why the generic phrase is actually "Kill Nana". IC's hardest matchups are based on characters that **** / separate Nana. If it was based on a character's ability to not get grabbed, Sheik should **** ICs for free. Idk I think it's silly to say "wow you got wobbled? GG L2P".

Your post = "High tiers shouldn't get grabbed by a high tier character. Everyone who plays this game is bad."

 

[DerfMidWest]

pretty much sums it up.