2.5 Frame Data

[zman804]

So here's Lucario's new frame data for 2.5. The numbers represent the first and last frame frame the hitbox appears.

I will start getting pictures, it might take a while. though. If anyone wants me to add information to the spreadsheet (IASA's?) I will, I didn't bother with them because Lucario's OHC means moves can end whenever.

Also, I'm not 100% sure how to read the information for his specials. It doesn't indicate when Down B is invincible, I don't understand how to the read the data concerning the Neutral B, and playing the Side B animation crashes BrawlBox.

Good news though! As I understand, blue hurtboxes (the bubbles around the character) mean that the character is invincible. Lucario has blue hurtboxes from frame 2 until frame 10 on ALL aerials. Unless this is an error on BrawlBox, this has really crazy implications.


Discuss!

 

[iLink]

Look for things such as speed modifiers and stuff of that nature changing the actual amount of frames it takes a hitbox to come out.

For example, dtilt's modifier makes hit on frame 5 and such. Pretty sure there are other attacks with speed modifiers.

I was actually going to do a topic like this myself with visual hitboxes and stuff when I ran into those modifiers slowing me down and having to figure out how they work.

 

[Spiffykins]

I've noticed that too, but only on down special. It makes sense that it would be there for other moves, though. Are there any moves that are slowed rather than sped up?

 

[standardtoaster]

He does not have invinc frame 1-10 on all aerials. He only gets that if he does an aerial from a super downb or upb iirc.

 

[theONEjanitor]

can we get specific data about advantage on block, IASA frames, knockback etc?

 

[Burnsy]

He does not have invinc frame 1-10 on all aerials. He only gets that if he does an aerial from a super downb or upb iirc.

Me and zman804 were confused about how exactly the invincibility worked, since we noticed that he obtained it via a subroutine compared to how it is normally applied, thanks for clearing this up. Does the same apply to the jab1's invincibility that is shown in brawlbox, or is that different?

 

[standardtoaster]

yes it applies there as well

 

[Magus420]

Hit and block advantage info I made for 2.5 Lucario:

Hit             When hitboxes begin
Damage          Damage of the hitboxes
Stun            Frames of block stun for the victim
Hitlag          Frame advantage on block gained/lost due to differences in hitlag for Lucario/victim
OHC-Advantage   Stun + Hitlag + 1. Overall advantage on block for Lucario. When you OHC during hitlag frame 1 plays during it then continues to frame 2 when it ends, essentially reducing startup of the move by 1

>       Indicates a change in hitbox properties over time (early -> late hit)
/       Multiple types of hitboxes at the same time (sweetspot/flub)
,       New hit begins on a multihitting attack

*A*
Move      Hit            Damage    Stun      Hitlag    OHC-Advantage
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jab 1     6              3         3          0        +4
Jab 2     8(+3)          2         2         +1        +4
Jab 3     8(+3)          5         4         +2        +7
DashAtk   6>7            10>7      6>5       -1>-1     +6>+5

-Jab 1/2 -> Jab 2/3 is not an OHC. The (+3) on Jab 2/3 is the added time between when the previous jab hits and when it can first transition into the current jab
-Subtract 1 from OHC-Advantage to get jab sequence advantage (you don't gain a frame from hitlag action change like OHC)

*B*
Move      Hit            Damage    Stun      Hitlag    OHC-Advantage
---------------------------------------------------------------------
F-Tilt    10             10        6         +2        +9
U-Tilt    5(10)          7         5         +1        +7
D-Tilt    5              6/8       4/5        0/-2     +5/+4

-U-Tilt hits in front around 10
-Outermost D-Tilt hitbox does 8 vs Ground

*C*
Move      Hit            Damage    Stun      Hitlag    OHC-Advantage
---------------------------------------------------------------------
F-Smash   19             14/16     8/9       +1/+1     +10/+11
U-Smash   10,12,14,16,22 8,1,1,1,6 5,2,2,2,4 0,0,0,0,0 +6,+3,+3,+3,+5
D-Smash   12             14        8         -1        +8
N-Air     9>16>29        15>12>9   8>7>6     0>0>0     +9>+8>+7
F-Air     4>10           11/12>8   6/7>5     0/0>0     +7/+8>+6
B-Air     10             14/15     8/8       0/0       +9/+9
U-Air     7              11/12     6/7       0/0       +7/+8
D-Air     4,11           8,8       5,5       0,0       +6,+6

-Outermost F-Smash hitbox does 16
-U-Smash JC window begins after 2nd 1 damage hit and ends after final 6 damage hit
-Outermost F-Air hitbox does 12 on initial hit
-Outermost B-Air hitbox does 15
-Outermost U-Air hitbox does 12

*D*
Move      Hit            Damage    Stun      Hitlag
---------------------------------------------------------
Neutral-B 1(13)          1         2         +2
Side-B    12,27          --,10/8/6 --,6/5/4  --,+5/+5/+4
Up-B      25,27,... 43   1,1,... 5 2,2,... 4 +1,+1,... 0
Up-B(S)   1              2         2         0

-Neutral-B hits in back around 13. Range depends on the size of the aura sphere. Is an article so Lucario has no hitlag
-Aura sphere startup into immediate cancel takes 16 frames total (13 + 3)
-Side-B attack is an article so Lucario himself has no hitlag
-Up-B (Super) is interruptible on frame 9
-Down-B is intangible starting on frame 16

 

[theONEjanitor]

thank you very much sir:

aight im a little confused
so "hitlag" is frame advantage on block?
it looks like you may have put some of those values under the "stun" category. if i'm reading this right.
Also if Jab comes out on 6 and ends on 7, and according to your chart causes 4 frames on block stun, how does it have 0 advantage? (im pretty sure it does have 0 advantage, but i just dont understand what i'm reading). sorry if i'm being ******** right now i'm just trying to piece it together lol.

im not sure i completely understand the OHC advantage category. why is it blank in some cases?



also can someone tell me how many frames it takes to do a perfect aura sphere cancel?

 

[Magus420]

'Hitlag' is how many frames shorter or longer the hitlag for Lucario is compared to the one shielding. The attacker's hitlag uses the multiplier for the hitbox, while their shield always uses a multiplier of 1. It's neutral when Lucario and the victim's hitlag are equal. If Lucario is in hitlag for 1 frame longer than the person shielding, that is an additional -1 advantage for him, as he's still in hitlag when their hitlag ends and shield stun begins.

'Stun' is the frames after their hitlag ends that they are stunned and can't act.

'OHC Advantage' is the combination of those along with the frame of startup removed by OHCing during hitlag. Stun + Hitlag Advantage + 1. This is what matters and is the net advantage on block. If it is 5 then you have 5 frames to act before they can do anything. Most dodges become inv on frame 2 and rolls on frame 4. If for example OHC Advantage is 6, attacks that hit on 7 or faster can't be dodged, and 9 or faster can't be avoided with a roll. Would probably be clearer if I included the '+' on these numbers, so I'll add those in. It's not listed on group D/specials since they aren't OHCable.

ASC is 16 total (13 + 3). It's mentioned at the bottom.

 

[theONEjanitor]

i get it now. i was thinking of something else when i read "hit lag". also got confused because of the way the lists look haha thanks

also for side b is the startup for the attack version only, or is frame 12 when the grab hitbox comes out

 

[Spiffykins]

This is interesting information, but what I really want to know is what the heck am I supposed to do to someone's shield? What kinds of sequences will give the best advantage?

 

[G13_Flux]

well it depends on the sort of set up you use onto their shield, and then you have to decide what you want to do with it. if you are at the ledge and want to get say, jiggs offstage, the it probably would be best not to use something like dtilt or utilt. dsmash might be a better option. if you are versing fox or falco however, and you want are simply racking damage, then dtilt and utilt would work well to pop them in the air and allow you to follow up with a variety of techniques. this is why lucario is so interesting, because there are many variations of sequences you can do, given a certain set up, in combination with your current plan of action. it takes a fair amount of skill to use lucario, and a lot of game experience as well. practice makes perfect.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm not talking about follow ups or combos though, I'm just talking about shield pressure. For example, is DA > dtilt > usmash > jump away safe on block? I like this sequence because if they drop their shield and get hit by the dtilt or usmash it's very easy to follow up, but I want to make sure there's no feasible window for them to shield grab or whatever before I get too comfortable with it.

 

[Badge]

Ok, so let's take a look at your sequence: DA has an OHC advantage of +6/5 depending on whether you hit early or late. This means that when you OHC it into another attack, that attack starts that many frames before your opponent is able to act. Dtilt now only takes 5 frames, so in either case you're completely safe to use it. Also, if done as soon as possible your opponent should not be able to drop their shield to get hit by dtilt as they'll be permanently shield stunned or in hitlag.

Dtilt has an OHC advantage of +5/4 depending on whether you hit with the inner or outer hitbox (the outer having less advantage). Say you hit with the inner hitbox. USmash first hits on frame 10, so that means that the opponent has 10-5=5 frames where he is able to act, with USmash connecting on the last of those frames. It now depends on your opponent, if they can do something. Grabs hit on frame 7+, so you can't be shieldgrabbed out of it. Fox and Wolf both can shine you ot of it, when in range and frame perfect, but Falco can't due to a 5 frame jumpstart etc.

If you now used ftilt in place of dtilt, there would be a 10-6=4 frame window after DA (early hit), where your opponent would be able to act. But on the flipside, ftilt has an OHC advantage of +9 over dtilt's +5, which means that Usmash would be 100% safe. There would be a 10-9=1 frame window, where your opponent is able to act, but I don't think there's any OOS option that hits or is invulnerable on frame 1. Even Bowser's UpB isn't invulnerable until frame 2, because you need to go into jumpsquat first before using it OOS.

 

[G13_Flux]

shine actually can be performed during jump squat, similar to up specials and up smashes. it doesnt matter if falco has 5 frames of jump squat, he can still shine OOS on in two frames (factoring in the jump squat). fox and falco would have to be right on you though, wolfs has more range so he is more likely to get you.

but regardless, i WAS talking about on shield, spiffykins. there are many combinations of shield pressure you can use that are advantageous, but you just have to select the moves correctly based on your final intention. like i said, you are not going to finish with something like an upsmash if you are trying to get jigglypuff off the stage. your string of moves (on shield) will eventually affect the choice of the final move you do, based on their relative advantages. thus, carefully selecting your moves to give the optimal amount of advantage in order to set you up for the final move is very important.

 

[Badge]

shine actually can be performed during jump squat, similar to up specials and up smashes. it doesnt matter if falco has 5 frames of jump squat, he can still shine OOS on in two frames (factoring in the jump squat). fox and falco would have to be right on you though, wolfs has more range so he is more likely to get you.

I'm 99% sure it can't be used during jumpsquat - at least simply inputting a shine during jumpsquat does nothing, I just tried to make sure. If there's some special technique to shine during jump squat I'd be interested to learn of it, though.

 

[G13_Flux]

you just have to do it very quickly. if you go into training mode, use any of the spacees. if you do a shine OOS, or even a multishine, where the shine looks as if it was performed on the ground, then you did it out of jump squat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx7NiYb9QCM

see right in the begining where falco does the multishine, but it never looks as if hes airborne? well he never does go airborne. he JCs the shine, then performs the second one grounded because it was performed during jumpsquat. if it was performed after jumpsquat, you would have seen him in the air, which clearly wasnt the case. the same applies to OOS. wolf is one of my mains and i can fairly consistently shine in this manor. there is no other explanation for why the shine is a grounded shine other than that it was performed during jumpsquat, exactly like up smashes OOS and up bs OOS.

so essentially, the fastest OOS maneuver in the game is two frames. the shines for one. bowser gets invincibilty on frame 2 until the hitbox comes out with up B OOS (factoring in the frame of jump squat). and GW has a frame one hit box on up b, (so again, two frames considering jump squat). not sure if any other characters have this. i know theres other characters with fast up bs OOS too: DK and mario have frame 3 hitboxes plus invincibility (so 4 frames OOS total), Luigi and marth have frame 5 hitbox and invincibility (6 frames OOS), peach has frame 3 invincibility and frame 6 hitbox (7 frames OOS, i think the invinvcibility for her is only one frame, not lending it much usefulness), and a few other characters like squirtle, wario, charizard, and diddy kong that i am unsure of their frame data. as far as aerial OOS attacks go, the quickest one is 6 frames (sheik and tink with 3 frame jumpsqat and frame 3 nair). i doubt any other characters beat that, although a few probably match it. in general, characters with the very good OOS options limit you to quick options like dtilt, and totally takes away you ability to OHC into a smash attack. with lucarios down b sorta nerfed, you cant stay fully safe on shield, so it looks like the comboing odds are heavily stacked against him in those MUs.

edit: on second thought, most characters have a frame 2 side step. but at least this gives you opportunities to employ baiting tactics, like charging an fsmash slightly when they side step, and then catching them in the endlag with it. again, all of this is assuming perfect timing, so a lot of these meanuevers will vary by several frames most likely in practical conditions.

 

[Spiffykins]

Ok, so let's take a look at your sequence: DA has an OHC advantage of +6/5 depending on whether you hit early or late. This means that when you OHC it into another attack, that attack starts that many frames before your opponent is able to act. Dtilt now only takes 5 frames, so in either case you're completely safe to use it. Also, if done as soon as possible your opponent should not be able to drop their shield to get hit by dtilt as they'll be permanently shield stunned or in hitlag.

Dtilt has an OHC advantage of +5/4 depending on whether you hit with the inner or outer hitbox (the outer having less advantage). Say you hit with the inner hitbox. USmash first hits on frame 10, so that means that the opponent has 10-5=5 frames where he is able to act, with USmash connecting on the last of those frames. It now depends on your opponent, if they can do something. Grabs hit on frame 7+, so you can't be shieldgrabbed out of it. Fox and Wolf both can shine you ot of it, when in range and frame perfect, but Falco can't due to a 5 frame jumpstart etc.

If you now used ftilt in place of dtilt, there would be a 10-6=4 frame window after DA (early hit), where your opponent would be able to act. But on the flipside, ftilt has an OHC advantage of +9 over dtilt's +5, which means that Usmash would be 100% safe. There would be a 10-9=1 frame window, where your opponent is able to act, but I don't think there's any OOS option that hits or is invulnerable on frame 1. Even Bowser's UpB isn't invulnerable until frame 2, because you need to go into jumpsquat first before using it OOS.

Interesting. If there's only a 1-2 frame window for something as fast as shine depending on which tilt you pick, at different points in the string to boot, then I'm not too worried about it in either case unless it's Bowser. But hey, everyone and their mother knows what's going to happen if you try to shield pressure Bowser.

 

[Magus420]

You can't shine/down-b during jump squat. Multishines are done by shining on the 1st air frame, and then landing after 5+ frames or so when TopN touches the floor (base of the character, usually near their feet). Shining after the 1st air frame has you in the air for more than 9 frames without landing, removing TopN as a landing bone, making it take much longer to land by falling until your knees touch the ground. This is what makes them a 1 frame window.

 

[Spiffykins]

Does the held aura sphere hitbox really come out on frame 13? I only ask because I can't tell you how many times I've naired, d smashed, etc at high percents and the aura sphere cancel traps them before they go anywhere.

 

[drsusredfish]

I do that too. Its anoying somtimes but you just got to try to remember to cancel to down B when you are going for a high percent KO.
From the way I understand it

Neutral-B 1(13)

it hits frame 1 with the charge animation, then can be fired off on frame 13.

 

[drsusredfish]

ok now that we understand the data lets post combo strings that are for the most part safe on sheild and use frame data to back it up.mind games with frame data is good too.

if i'm understanding foxes shine correctly the fastest frame he can attack out of sheild (or any character for that matter) is frame 4 (3 frame jumpsquat + 1 frame air time shine).

So in your string say the move, then depending on what your next move is say the time window the opponent has to react. so the string could look like this. move>(time opponent can react to next move) >move>(time opponent can react to next move)> move......

so with all that in mind,for these strings, positive numbers are good for lucario. negative numbers less than -4 can be punished OoS by a spacie. (its probably a good idea to remember what each characters fastest move OoS is)

so some simple stuff first.

jab1> (-7)> side b

after jab 1 hits using the ohc to side b leaves the opponet with 7 frames to react because jab1's ohc adv = +4 and side b's grab activates frame 12. 4-12= -7. so hiting a shield with jab is like making side b a 7 frame grab.

jab 3> (-5)> side b.
side b is now a 5 frame grab

ftilt> (-3)> side b.
side b is now a 3 frame grab. they can only spot dodge to escape the throw .

(keep in mind as moves stales these ohc advantages change/ get more punishable)

ok more advanced stuff.

jab 3 > (-3) > ftilt > (-1) >first hit upsmash >(+7) > aura ball> (-9)> cancel aura ball

so in this sequence, jab 3 to ftilt lucario is vulnerable for 3 frames. ftilt to upsmash he's vulnerable for 1 frame. then canceling to aura ball on the first hit of upsmash leaves opponets stuck in sheild for 7 frames if the auraball charge hits. its +5 for the ohc upsmash hit, +2 for the 1 frame auraball charge hit . instantly canceling the auraball leaves the opponent with 9 frames to punish lucario.

alternatively

jab 3 > (-3) > ftilt > (-1) >first hit upsmash >(+7) > aura ball> (-6)> shoot aura ball

shooing the auraball to end the combo instead of canceling it would probably be the safest option since, I assume, the aura ball becomes a projectile on frame 13. but IDK the hitstun of a shot auraball and IDK what frame lucario can move after he shoots the aura ball so i can't say for sure how safe it is. but just the fact that they have to avoid or contend with the shot auraball probably makes shooting the safest anyway.



can someone correct me on this stuff if i'm wrong.

 

[Badge]

Shieldstun doesn't stack, hitting someone with the first frame aura ball actually allows them to act sooner than after just a first hit of upsmash as the lower shield stun of AS overwrites the higher one of UpSmash. Also AS only hits right in front or on top of Lucario for the first few frames and might well not hit that soon. Not that you'd want it. Considering landing the first hit at best improves your advantage by 1 frame and in most cases actually lowers it, you'll probably either want to avoid the hit or go for a late one.

You don't want to hit an opponent's shield with the AS projectile from point blank range as it puts Lucario at a heavy frame disadvantage. It also only hits on frame 19 (not 13), while AS-cancel->Dtilt hits on frame 21, AS-cancel->Jab hits on frame 22 and both let you restart your pressure.

 

[drsusredfish]

ah ok. I didn't know shield stun didn't stack. but i guess it shouldn't stack otherwise you'd be stuck in shield for blocking a charging aura ball. that throws off a lot of his aura ball cancel stuff then since he doesn't have a lot of push back on his moves(besides smashes) and that 1 frame aura ball usually hits (for me anyway). well in a frame perfect world that messes things up.

so that means the key to effectively using the ASC, and lucario in general, is to not do full strings, or the same string, every time so they try to punish at the wrong time. the openings he creates is where the mind games come in to play then.

 

[Magus420]

You could tap back before inputting the AS so he starts it facing backwards. The 1(13) means it hits on frame 1 in front and 13 behind him. That trick is also useful for comboing off of the 1st hit of u-smash since it often gets in the way there.

 

[CORY]

what's the startup on 2.5 double team?

 

[drsusredfish]

15 painful frames till you go intangible, start moving, and are able to cancel it.

 

[Spiffykins]

I thought it was 15 or 16 but I wasn't 100%. Do you know what it was in 2.1?

 

[CORY]

15 painful frames till you go intangible, start moving, and are able to cancel it.

thanks! was trying to plan out ohc possibilities, but needed to know that!

I thought it was 15 or 16 but I wasn't 100%. Do you know what it was in 2.1?

a lot faster than 15 frames ;x

 

[Tero.]

Could somebody please get some pictures of the hitboxes? That'd be awesome!

 

[Paz]

I've been experimenting with ASC'ing and trying to find situations that would benefit from it's usage. However, when I saw that the total time it takes to perform an ASC is 13 frames (which seems quite long) I began to wonder when is it truly worth using for pure cancelling purposes (no wave bouncing or turning). What moves, when ASC'd, actually provide frame advantage when they otherwise would have not?

Oh, first post btw, I've been a lurker for a long time.

 

[Magus420]

Jab 1/2 are the only attacks I think that don't get reduced normal endlag by ASCing. OHCing directly into something instead is obviously going to be faster/safer, but ASCing is a lot more flexible as you're not limited to certain moves or positioning. 15 (13 - 1 from OHC during hitlag + 3 from the cancel) frames is very low for general endlag (about the endlag of most jabs), and ASCing gives him the option to have that on all of his A attacks on hit. Fox/Falco's u-tilts have ~17 endlag, and Sheik's f-tilt ~21 to get an idea of how short that is.

 

[Paz]

Thank you for the quick response Magus, and wow it really is quick. Now I can ASC with no regrets.

 

[CORY]

Jab 1/2 are the only attacks I think that don't get reduced normal endlag by ASCing. OHCing directly into something instead is obviously going to be faster/safer, but ASCing is a lot more flexible as you're not limited to certain moves or positioning. 15 (13 - 1 from OHC during hitlag + 3 from the cancel) frames is very low for general endlag (about the endlag of most jabs), and ASCing gives him the option to have that on all of his A attacks on hit. Fox/Falco's u-tilts have ~17 endlag, and Sheik's f-tilt ~21 to get an idea of how short that is.

that's really good to know : o

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Is all the frame data still correct? I know that ftilt and downs were sped up (hit box comes out earlier) but are there any other changes after that?

 

[HK_Spadez]

Is all the frame data still correct? I know that ftilt and downs were sped up (hit box comes out earlier) but are there any other changes after that?

yeah.. was hoping to see if someone could confirm if this is all still correct for 3.0?