Match-Up Discussion #18! Sheik

Sheik​

Go ^_^

This is a really easy matchup IMO:

-Incredibly easy to gimp Sheik, Up B doesnt attack at the end, and tether wont work if you're on the ledge. You dont even have to time ur invincibilty. Plus your fair outranges her so you can easily hit her when she's trying to recover

-Ftilt, Fsmash, Dtilt, and even jab outrange all of her ground options except for fsmash and thats only because she lunges forward. If spaced properly, you dominate the ground

-Sheik has a nice air game, but you still outrange her, fair can take care of most of her options

-You can escape F-tilt lock with DS


7:3 Marth

7:3???

Not even close. This is very close to an even match.

In my times of vsing Sheik:

Sheiks dash attack is an okay approach.
Dsmash is sneaky.
Needles are annoying.

Sheik I believe had the match up advantage in Melee. In Brawl her 'downgrade' has changed a lot, but I believe the match up is now around the even mark.

Your best defense against Sheik is ftilt, really. She doesn't have really good aerial approaches that aren't covered by the ftilt.

Sheik can force approaches via her needle, and can pressure your defence through fastish ground moves, and the ftilt combos work for at least 15-20% damage nearly everytime you get caught.

The biggest threat is her upsmash. Watch out ya'll.

Anyway, I'd say 55:45 or 50:50 Marth's way.

Why, reasons please. I've never had trouble with it, and its really easy to space against her. No disjointed hitboxes or anything...

You musn't be playing very good sheiks. I've played neo's and sheik is very capable of getting inside marth's sword with her speed. She also has range with her needles and with her chain which doesn't have that much ending lag. If you make a mistake you can expect to be punished because of her great speed. will add more later, but this is definitely very close to even.

BengalsRZ said:

Why, reasons please. I've never had trouble with it, and its really easy to space against her. No disjointed hitboxes or anything...

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Her dash attack breaks into your zoning, from there she can rack up beautiful damage with her Ftilt lock to Utilt or whatever, as well as jab cancel to something. Not sure if DS plows through a correct Ftilt lock, but it's probably risky.

Her grabs also all set-up into something. Uthrow to Uair can kill you since you're pretty light.

I don't know. Sheik is still a beast, but I'm not knowledgeable of the match-up enough to contribute much (if anything at all, since all of this may be incorrect).

Also, her ledge guarding game is pretty good against you since you have a linear recovery. Chain can disrupt recovery, and if they somehow mastered chain jacketing, that will gimp you alone. Also, Up+B has excellent knockback, and is used to edgeguard as well.

Also, Nair and Bair can kill near the edge, and Fair can gimp you if you're forced to lose your second jump early.

maybe i havent played any really good sheiks, but she's just too easy to gimp for me and too easy to zone against to really have any trouble...

Her dash attack isnt really too big a threat. You can just shield grab, DS out of shield, or bair out of shield if she goes by you. The grab setups are annoying, but you can air dodge away from them usually.

I did fail to mention the needles though, those are extremely disrupitve. But nothing that breaks the matchup. Still at LEAST a 6:4 for me. I'm leaning towards 65:35

I'd say the match-up is pretty much 55:45 sheik has a lot of moves that disrupt marth's spacing

FF single f-airs harldy work against sheik's dash attack.

Sheik has a pretty good edge game

Marth does have a slight advantage due to range, power, and weight

Also there are many things that marth can do to gimp shiek's recovery

But there are also things that sheik can do to gimp marth's recovery her options aren't as widespread as marth's but they are still there

Bengalz: you might have a easy time against shiek because of the players skill in turn of your own skill

I'm not saying sheik is sooooo great but. She isn't a bad character at all

VietGeek said:

Not sure if DS plows through a correct Ftilt lock, but it's probably risky.

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It does. But it won't change the fact that a single ftilt can set up beautifully for utilt, grabs, jabs, or aerials.

Sheik will primarily play a punishing game in this matchup - which Sheik is particularly good at. Sheik's dash attack can quickly dart in if Marth whiffs any landing aerial. That means camping with shff fair, double fair, etc. will rarely work for Marth.

Sheik's biggest problem this match is killing. Tippered usmash will kill in the low 100s, but it's not reliable. Unless Sheik changes to Zelda, Marth will be living to about 160 or so a stock. However, Sheik has little difficulty getting you to that % quickly. Needles and dsmash are fast and deal lots of %.

Marth's air and ground games are better than Sheik's, but Sheik has the tools and the speed to harass you, chip in damage, and eventually land a few killing blows.

60-40 Marth

BengalsRZ said:

Her dash attack isnt really too big a threat. You can just shield grab, DS out of shield, or bair out of shield if she goes by you.

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A smart Sheik will never outright approach you with dash attack. They'll dart in and hit you during ending lag.

This match would be fairly even if it weren't for killing power.

Marth can kill Sheik much earlier than vice versa, and I'm not even talking in terms of gimps.

Steel2nd said:

You musn't be playing very good sheiks. I've played neo's and sheik is very capable of getting inside marth's sword with her speed. She also has range with her needles and with her chain which doesn't have that much ending lag. If you make a mistake you can expect to be punished because of her great speed. will add more later, but this is definitely very close to even.

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Name dropper no one cares Neo is obvious trash kthx.

I dunno why everyone complains about Zelda's Din's Fire it's honestly not that hard just look at their hands for when it explodes ezpk.

Zelda's that transform into Sheik for the kill are harder than pure Zelda's imo.

Shiek has a mean f tilt. Just throwing that out there.

If shiek gets in good range, she can lock you in a corner, it's fast, and can "combo" up to a good damage %.

Not saying it's hard to hit. Marths retreating SH Fair could probably handle it, but Shiek is indeed fast.

Well, most of what I know was said already but I will agree with Shaya, 55:45, or 50:50 matchup here.

I find Sheik pretty easy to gimp in general, however Sheik has very good tilts and can dash attack cancel her up smash which is usually a suprise. Marth has range and power, Sheik has well...actual tilt 'combos' lulz.

Sheik's speed is very good, so if you mess up your spacing you can easily be hit with a upsmash or something.

I don't think this is quite a 50:50 matchup. I'd say it's more 55:45 Marth. Spacing is horridly and impossibly painful to do against shiek because she moves so **** fast. Also, her needles are a rather annoying projectile, dealing a good amount of damage if you allow yourself to get hit by all of them and allow her to preform some nice setups for approaches.

And for the love of god DOLPHIN SLASH HER FTILT "combos" >>

That and learn to air dodge. Just realize you're going to get hit a lot more than you'd like, but realize that it takes a few hits from sheik to make up for a single tip from marth. That and killing power make the match up slightly tilted in Marth's favor.

Oh, and up+b kills. Careful on gimping.

Shiek is the 2nd hardest character in the game for me to fight behind Fox.

I don't have a clue how to handle a good Shiek. She can get inside you sword and stay there just like Fox can.

I know people will just say, "Marth has more range so automactic 7:3 advatange" like you guys always do, but I think Shiek has options against Marth.

Her needles do like 18 damage, so she has a safe, high-damage attack that's spamable. Also, she has a really good dash attack that can get inside of Marth spacing -- it's fast enough hit you when you fast fall something. She has an amazing boost smash that can do the same.

Don't forget, Marth's recovery is trash. She can grab the ledge with her whip then gimp you real easy.

I say 5:5 but that is just me. I also though Marth vs Fox and Pit should have both been 5:5.

Sheik is one of the few chars in the game where you need to practice SDI against. That makes it much easier to get out of her stupid combos.

And DS out of shield isn't advised just cause sheik's fast and her dash grab is pretty good, in addition to it being a setup for sheik, so no reason for her to shy away from it.

Sheik is annoying and can get in pretty quickly, but she can't kill for **** so I see it as 60/40.

When a player uses both Sheik and Zelda together I think it becomes more along the lines of 55/45 since they cover each others weaknesses.

Im gonna say 60:40 Marth because sheiks attacks are faster but marth has more range. If ur are spaced well enough then even if ur attack comes out a few frames late, your range will compensate for that brain lag because she will arrive within ur range before u arrive within hers.

k i'm gonna say 100:0 marth cause i've never lost to a sheik in tourney

zzz at everyone giving percentages

lol, tourney evidence sorta does **** sheiks argument in this case. Lets wait and see if inui can turn sheiks placings in tournaments in her favor

No one good with Shiek is just gonna sit there and let Marth hack his sword from a distance all day.

She has a projectile that's lighting quick and does a lot of damage. And she's fast enough to get inside of Marth. She has viable option against Marth, both defensively and offencively. No way in hell this is **** for Marth. Shiek ability to gimp Marth covers her lack of KO ability some, IMO.

This in my opinion is a very dangerous matchup for both characters, due to how easily they can gimp each other. Sheik can gimp Marth with her tether recovery, while Marth can gimp her due to the fact that her Up-B does not have a hit box when it reappears. Marth has a range advantage, however Sheik has a good dash attack and some fast aerials such as the fair which she can use quickly to run in and get a quick hit off with. Needles are quite versatile, and can be used either for a quick follow up or a good defensive tool. This match I feel is dependent on the Marth not overextending himself by being overly aggressive. You just have to play carefully and be sure not to make a mistake or else it could be capitalized upon, in that sense it reminds me of Marth vs Jigglypuff or Marth vs Peach from Melee. Most people seem to think that it is even or slightly in favor of Marth, interestingly enough we seem to all agree that at least Sheik does not have the advantage in this match. I believe this match to be 60:40 Marth.

grandmaster192 said:

No one good with Shiek is just gonna sit there and let Marth hack his sword from a distance all day.

She has a projectile that's lighting quick and does a lot of damage. And she's fast enough to get inside of Marth. She has viable option against Marth, both defensively and offencively. No way in hell this is **** for Marth. Shiek ability to gimp Marth covers her lack of KO ability some, IMO.

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Rofl. Im sure marth can "get inside of sheik" before she "gets inside of him" and not just because sheik lacks the proper "equipment". I think than if sheiks fair was more formidable then i could see this as a more even match 55:45. But lets be honest, if u lose to sheik, u had to have made some major mistakes. I can count on one hand the number of times sheik has been able to effectively edgehog/gimp me when i am using marth. Since you can up+b out of sheiks most devastating damage racker, its not much of a threat. D-tilt to keep sheik out of ur face, dancing blade her at medium range, fair a few times for good measure and spacing, let it simmer in the oven for about a minute, then u have one ***** sheik.

*tallies down number 23490382 60:40 match up for Marth"

LETS POUND OUT THESE MATCH UPS. let's be one of the first boards (first?) to have a complete match up guide with the whole community contributing.

Hey Emblem Lord maybe you could call Gympyfish to talk about the matchup(since you both are BR).
Hes the best Sheik I have seen so far.Other than that,I truly dont have any experience in this matchup.

I believe this match is 35:65 Marth's favor. Here's why

Sheik's Advantages:
More speed
Good Projectile
Better recovery (that chain is too good, lol)
Good juggling
Good attack speed
Best damage racker is safe on block (ftilt)
Can transform into Zelda very easily after knocking Marth off the stage. (anyone who says Sheik's down B shouldn't be considered in a match-up discussion is stupid)
Good at penetrating zoning
Good punishers

Sheik's disadvantages:
Lacks kill moves
mid-Lightweight (subject to early tipper K.O.s)
gimpable (you can have a good recovery and still be gimpable. Wario, Luigi, and Diddy all say hi)
Outranged
Only one disjointed hitbox (one of the few specials in the game that cancels out attacks though)


Marth's advantages:
Good range
More priority
Better Zoning
Good Juggle traps
Good edgeguarding

Marth's disadvantages:
No projectile
No safe kill moves

Marth really doesn't really have any glaring weaknesses that Sheik can exploit. While Sheik can indeed break into fair zoning at mid-range, there aren't amazing options for Sheik to deal with Fair Zoning when mixed with the occasional dtilt or ftilt. Also, Dolphin Slash is a trap that can muff many obvious attempts to punish. Marth can get out of ftilt lock very easy, and it's also pretty easy to Dolphin Slash out of it unless the Sheik player is robotic.

When on the ground, Sheik has dsmash, fsmash, and ftilt (along with vanish) so try not to use too many spot dodges, as these are easily punished. If you suspect Sheik will grab you, roll away.

Sheik is a dynamic artistic character, which means she usually has multiple options in many situations, and at high level play, isn't too predictable to a move. However, due to a lack of reliable specials, except Needles, you can narrow down which of Sheik's moves are going to emerge less. Keep Sheik's options in mind, and use Fair, Dtilt, and Dancing Blade appropriately.

Despite her awesome speed, and penetrating dash attack, all of Sheik's attacks on the ground except fsmash bring her to an eventual halt, including and cause major breaks in her momentum. Because of this, walking to adjust your spacing is crucial, and will bring very sweet rewards. Mastering pivoting will make you a master of this match-up. Dashing out of the way, and then pivot ftilt. dtilt, Dancing Blade, or dsmashing reaps awesome fruits, so try to get that down if you have problems with Shiek.

In the air, don't underestimate Shiek's speed. Her aerials come out just as fast, if not faster than yours, but you have significantly more range than Sheik. She's weak from below, as her Dair startup lag, and she's not the fastest faller in the world, proper use of uair, utilt, and dancing blade make her a good candidate to be juggled. Learn it.

Zelda is easier to handle than Shiek, but remember that Zelda has awesome finishers, so this does help when you're at higher percentages. Furthermore, swithcing to Zelda, killing you, and switching back to Sheik refreshes Shiek's entire moveset, so be ready for Sheik to be at maximum efficiency when you return.

Be cautious of Shiek's juggle traps. The ftilt is a nice set, the Usmash is quite powerful, and can be slightly charged to mess with timing, as well as boost smashed by a very good Shiek to achive quite a distance. Vanish can be a mindgame, and the Uair is very good, especially vs Marth, who is weak from below in the air as well, due the high punishment of missing Dair, or having it shielded. The utilt has two hitboxes, and can catch you out of an airdodge, and the Dash attack is an awesome ground zoner that can pop you back up. Fortunately, I've never met any Sheik that have tried to juggle me, but the tools are there. To get out of juggle traps, use interesting DI, go off stage and recover to the ledge, use Dancing Blade to stall in the air and disrupt timing, use counter, use amazingly timed Dolphin Slashes to go through your opponents attacks and K.O. the **** out of them (not advised, lol), use a random Dair, throw lots of Fairs while trying to land, and airdodge appropriately.

Conclusively, Marth can outrange Shiek, and while he can't zone her as awesomely as he can other characters, he still has the advantage on defense. Proper use of tilts, and Dancing Blade deal Shiek reasonable damage in single hit incidences. Edgeguarding Sheik is not too hard, but be cautious of obvious things, like vanish. Be wary of Sheik's Fair off stage because Marth is very gimpable, especially since Sheik has the tether recovery. Try to keep Shiek from applying pressure, by frequently resetting the spacing, and not spot dodging too frequently.

BacklashMarth said:

Rofl. Im sure marth can "get inside of sheik" before she "gets inside of him" and not just because sheik lacks the proper "equipment". I think than if sheiks fair was more formidable then i could see this as a more even match 55:45. But lets be honest, if u lose to sheik, u had to have made some major mistakes. I can count on one hand the number of times sheik has been able to effectively edgehog/gimp me when i am using marth. Since you can up+b out of sheiks most devastating damage racker, its not much of a threat. D-tilt to keep sheik out of ur face, dancing blade her at medium range, fair a few times for good measure and spacing, let it simmer in the oven for about a minute, then u have one ***** sheik.

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Marth does not went to get inside Sheik. Get it?

JunkInTheTrunk said:

k i'm gonna say 100:0 marth cause i've never lost to a sheik in tourney

zzz at everyone giving percentages

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It sounds like you have never played a good sheik.

JunkInTheTrunk said:

Sheik is one of the few chars in the game where you need to practice SDI against. That makes it much easier to get out of her stupid combos.

And DS out of shield isn't advised just cause sheik's fast and her dash grab is pretty good, in addition to it being a setup for sheik, so no reason for her to shy away from it.

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LOL LOOK AT THIS NOOB

TyQ said:

It sounds like you have never played a good sheik.

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Teach me your forum tech. I just can't bump a thread if it's is older than a few days but you were able to do a few months.

And I have but that doesn't make sheik good. She's better than where she's on the tier list though.

Lol, well since some random noob decided to bump it....

I think you guys nailed it with the 60:40 ratio. Sheik doesn't have enough options to deal with Marths priority and spacing tools...but she certainly can win this matchup.

I'm not really going to quote anyone since the comments were very old, but there were some errors in this thread.

Sheik ***** Marth's recovery, I don't know why on earth you guys were saying differently. Chain tether hogs are incredibly easy against Marth, he already has a below average recovery. Sheik can also go all over the place offstage.....imo she's one of the better edgeguarding characters.

Oh and for the DS out of the ftilt lock stuff.....I just ftilt twice and shield. Then when you land I repeat, it's kind of a psuedo-ftilt lock.

Sheik also has no problems killing Marth. If my ftilt is decayed from simple ftilt to utilt and ftilt to nair combos, it leads directly into the tipper at kill percentages. Sheiks tipper is one of the best vertical KO moves in the game and kills Marth at ridiculous percentages.

Like I said though, I think you guys got the ratio right, but I just wanted to point out a few things since you didn't seem to have any contributons from Sheik players.

I'm a advanced enough Sheik player, and IMO, this matchup is strongly in favor of Marth. Marth outranges sheik, has more priority, and has a good ability to break out of Ftilt locks. Also Marth's Dolphin Slash removes an essential part of the Sheik metagame due to its speed. With mediocre spacing Marth dominates Sheik. However, if a Sheik is able to sheild and punish Marths laggy attacks and landing lag, getting in his face can lead to easy kills.

65-35

Kill yourself.

-Mars- said:

Kill yourself.

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lmao thats my ****, but i agree

this is like the only fun matchup in the game

daayum can't believe i thought this was 7:3 at one point.

how the **** does sheik get off the ledge in this matchup? how does she escape juggle traps? also how can she approach?

like she puts marth in the same ****ty positions too just not as badly imo. whenever i play sheik in seriouslies this MU is really hard. i'm curious to see how she gets around marth's sword very well

u jus run around n stuff

The most fun matchup in the game is Marth vs Dk

Shiek is second best.