Match-Up Discussion #13! Lucario

Steel · Sep 6, 2008

Azen

Go ^_^

∫unk · Sep 6, 2008

There's really no counter to him cause he's every character, and extremely well at all of them.

Can't outspace him cause his spacing is the best.

I can count on one hand the number of people to successfully mindgame him so that's not an option either.

I'd give this a 10/90 matchup honestly you just have to get really lucky and hope he's tired or sandbagging.

Ulevo · Sep 6, 2008

I would call this a 9/1 match up in Azens favour, but if you're smart, you can last.

Strategy: He likes to Forward Smash a lot. Your main strategy here is to spot dodge and retaliate with Dancing Blade or Perfect Shield. Be careful of the IASA (Is A Speedy Azen) Frames, they'll catch you off guard. Counter works too if predicted, as well as Dolphin Slash at higher percents.

TokiDoki · Sep 6, 2008

...or you can use ally.

Samuelson · Sep 6, 2008

Bloodhawk!

Marth is one of Lucario's hardest matchups. You beat us in air which sucks for us. Lucario is floaty so it is hard for you guys to "combo" us. Lucario will most likely use AS to their advantage this matchup even though it is easy for Marth to avoid it so that also sucks for us. You guys have a counter that is actually useful and will end our "combos."

feardragon64 · Sep 6, 2008

rofl ulevo. IASA of course =b

Anyways, since we know he's going to do it anyways.....

EL's post on Lucario from match-up thread:

Emblem Lord said:
Lucario - He has good range and great comboability. His hitboxes linger a bit with his attacks since he uses aura and he gets stronger the more damage he has. He can perform some good combos on Marth for alot of damage, but most of his combos can only be done on Marth when they are BOTH at low percents. He has Aura Sphere as a projectile. He will use these to play defensive and lure you in while also using them as containment tools to control your movement and spacing. Remember to jab them or perfectshield them so you can advance on your own terms while maintaining your spacing. You can also SH airdodge and then use the analog to go in either direction since Marth's aerial movement is so good. Charged Aura Sphere's can't be jabbed and fully charged ones will be used to kill. He will be relying on edgeguarding alot since his smashes aren't too great for killing, because they come out a tad slow. In terms of raw attack speed you are faster while he has more moves that are safe on block then you do. His roll is fast and he also has those lingering hitboxes, so zoning is difficult but not impossible. Remember that you do outrange his fair with yours and your tilts as well. So with good spacing you will be safe. You will usually want to DI back when zoning with fairs so that if Lucario rolls towards you he will end up in front of you. Then you can punish with Dancing Blade. Lucario's recovery isn't too hot. Extreme Speed has no hitbox so if you are on the ledge he is basically screwed. He can try to wall cling then wall jump and up b back to the stage. If you know he has to wall cling then you can ledgedrop fair or ledge drop up b and then he should be done. If he goes for the stage then he will lag and he is easy prey. Just kill him or hit him back out. When he is trying to edgeguard you, try to just airdodge or counter to get past him and then recover. When he is at 100% you need to being going for the kill since that is the percent where he starts to become significantly more powerful.

So basically, knock out and gimp nice and early?

Edit: no range boost when higher on damage? Thanks kita =] And ya, lucario has a weird twist going on for him.

Steel · Sep 6, 2008

feardragon.. azen's fsmash beats marth's range.

feardragon64 · Sep 6, 2008

Steel2nd said:
feardragon.. azen's fsmash beats marth's range.

But it's still pretty slow....not to say it's incredibly slow but it's not too hard to spot dodge to dancing blade or double d-tilt if you're in close.
Besides, if he's using fsmash early on, then it's a worse kill move since he already doesn't have the most open choices in getting a kill(dsmash, fsmash and fully charged as?)

Kitamerby · Sep 6, 2008

Range doesn't increase with aura, only knockback and damage. <<

However, our Fsmash outranges basically everything you have, but it's slow enough to punish.

Oh, and never get too comfortable even if you're in the lead. Lucario is the King of Comebacks, as you all know. He gets an extra aura boost when he's behind. Thenagain, don't give up if you're behind him, either. He gets a small, but noticeable DEbuff when he's ahead. The match is never over until the third stock is done.

Timbers · Sep 6, 2008

Impossible matchup. Azen knows Marth more than Marth knows Marth.

BacklashMarth · Sep 6, 2008

In terms of hair, i think this is a pretty even match (unless were talkin classic color marth then its 90-30 in marths favor, thats rite 120%).

VietGeek · Sep 6, 2008

By the looks of it, only his Toon Link is rusty as he seemed to only have used Toon Link at an initial metagame standpoint. So assuming it hasn't improved, hope that he chooses Toon Link against you.

Otherwise, be ready for an uphill battle. 90/10 Azen's favor. Watch out for his colored text. It kills early.

Really, didn't we do Lucario already? Then this must mean it's Azen. So you guys talking about Lucario need to offer moar info, kthx.

Here, one of them unofficial match-up threads: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183140

Jibbles · Sep 6, 2008

However, our Fsmash outranges basically everything you have, but it's slow enough to punish

Marth's Shield Breaker outranges Lucario's FSmash. I tested this.

Nibbity · Sep 6, 2008

um....put down the controller and back away slowly?

Anywho, a lot of what EL says is still completely true. His smash attacks are slow (F smash immediately comes to mind), but his combos are very nice, imo especially in the air. I believe it is easier to dodge his aura sphere by perfect shielding in most cases because Lucario could be close enough to play off of your air dodge, and you can't jab a fully charged aura sphere. Spacing is indeed hard, because you need to stay away from Lucario's B over, which he can combo if im not mistaken, correct me if i'm wrong.

Megavitamins · Sep 6, 2008

Btw, this is obvious, but you wanna kill him as early as possible. I've died at like 60% from a lucario f-smash cuz he lived to over 150%. Really dumb T_T

Jibbles · Sep 6, 2008

For the record, Lucario's FSmash is unbelievably powerful at max power
(all tests done in training mode vs. Mario set to stand, so expect different, but not too much, in a vs mode match)

Uncharged kills Mario from middle of FD at 72% with no DI

Charged KOes at 38% from middle of FD

Charged FSmash KOes at 23% from the sides of FD

Both are tipper FSmashes from Lucario. Uncharged does 22%, charged does 31%.

Lucario's fully powered Aura Sphere also KOes somewhere in the 80s so watch out for that too.

In other words, Lucario's FSmash at full power > Marth's tip FSmash

Shaya · Sep 6, 2008

Shieldbreaker says hi.

This is my way of pointing out that what you just said is completely worthless in the discussion at hand. Who cares about fully charged.

Steel · Sep 6, 2008

Kitamerby said:
Range doesn't increase with aura, only knockback and damage. <<

However, our Fsmash outranges basically everything you have, but it's slow enough to punish.

Oh, and never get too comfortable even if you're in the lead. Lucario is the King of Comebacks, as you all know. He gets an extra aura boost when he's behind. Thenagain, don't give up if you're behind him, either. He gets a small, but noticeable DEbuff when he's ahead. The match is never over until the third stock is done.

comebacks in BRAWL?!?!?FADSFKALSDJFLK

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 6, 2008

Jibbles, why would you ever let Lucario charge an Fsmash fully and then get hit with it. Furthermore you should not let Lucario live to the point where his Aura attacks kill that early, and you can't test without DI, most competitive people can DI well.

3xSwords · Sep 6, 2008

Well DI doesn't matter when you charge an attack fully :chuckle:

Gimping him should be very easy, just stay right outside of his attacking range and when you force him to use his upB, go for the kill.

Edit: Oh and don't fall into the trap where he shoots a fully charged aura sphere when you are just about to land. Most people air dodge and get scrwed over. I would either counter, use a second jump if you have it, or best option FF and shield.

Jibbles · Sep 6, 2008

ike is solid said:
Jibbles, why would you ever let Lucario charge an Fsmash fully and then get hit with it. Furthermore you should not let Lucario live to the point where his Aura attacks kill that early, and you can't test without DI, most competitive people can DI well.

Never said anything about letting Luc live that much. I'm simply mentioning that he becomes *that* powerful if you let him live that far. Heck, I believe Luc's FSmash has the same amount of power as Marth's at 150%, and if for some reason he's still alive at that percentage you could die pretty early. Of course you shouldn't be eating a fully charged FSmash, but things like a whiffed Counter, although extremely rare, can happen and can set up for this.

Even with DI you aren't going to survive a whole lot more. Remember that the test was done on Mario, who is heavier than Marth, and the fact that in training mode moves kill 5%-6% later I think (M2K once said that DDD's UTilt KOes Marth at 94% in vs mode and 100% in training mode).

Timbers · Sep 6, 2008

3xSwords said:
Edit: Oh and don't fall into the trap where he shoots a fully charged aura sphere when you are just about to land. Most people air dodge and get scrwed over. I would either counter, use a second jump if you have it, or best option FF and shield.

you guys have a ****ing counter you know. >_>

Also Marth's fair negates every full aurasphere.

Umm..Lucario can easily live until 140-150 in this match. He'll be able to reach near full power a lot of times....doesn't really matter though. Marth's ground and air game both devastate him. Marth plays a better defense, too.

Recovery is irrelevant. I know how much you Marth mains just love to hear this, but Luc's recovery isn't the easiest thing to gimp. If you think otherwise then stop playing scrubs. He's floaty, decent aerial DI, good midair jump, and very versatile recovery. At worse for the Lucario, he'll be forced to recover onto the stage and take some extra damage from a ledgehopped fair/nair, but outright gimping isn't going to be an easy feat and generally entirely reliant on the Lucario screwing up. With that said, I still consider Marth to be one of the better characters at gimping Luc's recovery, but keep in mind that Luc has his own gimpgame as well. It's not as devastating as Marth's, but it caters very well to harassing characters with poor horizontal recoveries (read: Marth)

Expect a lot of aurasphere from the Lucario. Not to the point where it's spam, but because it's the only saving grace for Lucario in this matchup, and even then I'd still give Marth a 60:40.

_Kadaj_ · Sep 6, 2008

Just use proper spacing with f-airs, b-airs, and tilts (forward and down) and you should be ok. You can up-b out of his jab combo before he can..... Say jab, to forward b or jab to grab. Counter works great on ANTICIPATED f-smashes this does NOT mean counter all over the place which can lead to predictability and can ultimatly end result in a loss of a stock or a match.

Always remember predictability = vulnerability

Lol I'm just rambling on about nothing :laugh:

_Kadaj_ · Sep 6, 2008

O yea his f-smash has a decieving amount of IASA frames so don't be so quick to rush in after he does one it can result in getting hit by a second f-smash. I've seen Azen do this to many people before lol

Browny · Sep 6, 2008

Maverick_Ace said:
Just use proper spacing with f-airs, b-airs, and tilts (forward and down) and you should be ok. You can up-b out of his jab combo before he can..... Say jab, to forward b or jab to grab. Counter works great on ANTICIPATED f-smashes this does NOT mean counter all over the place which can lead to predictability and can ultimatly end result in a loss of a stock or a match.

if you counter lucarios fsmash tipper, it wont even hit him. its got THAT big range

_Kadaj_ · Sep 6, 2008

I know but when I say counter I mean to actually be in range to hit with the move

deftdefier · Sep 6, 2008

Use caution when spot-dodging his Fsmash, his lingering aura can still hit you if you dont know the proper timing.

You will also have a hard time using SB on him for a couple reasons. First his aura sphere will punish it too easily because SB doesn't swat projectiles. Also if you are attempting to use SB on him when he's about to Fsmash you should forget it because if he times it right he will always win (at high percentages at least)

3xSwords · Sep 7, 2008

Timbers said:
you guys have a ****ing counter you know. >_>

Also Marth's fair negates every full aurasphere.

Umm..Lucario can easily live until 140-150 in this match. He'll be able to reach near full power a lot of times....doesn't really matter though. Marth's ground and air game both devastate him. Marth plays a better defense, too.

Recovery is irrelevant. I know how much you Marth mains just love to hear this, but Luc's recovery isn't the easiest thing to gimp. If you think otherwise then stop playing scrubs. He's floaty, decent aerial DI, good midair jump, and very versatile recovery. At worse for the Lucario, he'll be forced to recover onto the stage and take some extra damage from a ledgehopped fair/nair, but outright gimping isn't going to be an easy feat and generally entirely reliant on the Lucario screwing up. With that said, I still consider Marth to be one of the better characters at gimping Luc's recovery, but keep in mind that Luc has his own gimpgame as well. It's not as devastating as Marth's, but it caters very well to harassing characters with poor horizontal recoveries (read: Marth)

Expect a lot of aurasphere from the Lucario. Not to the point where it's spam, but because it's the only saving grace for Lucario in this matchup, and even then I'd still give Marth a 60:40.

Well I mentioned the ****ing counter didn't I? :chuckle:

Yeah and I forgot about Lucario's upB to wall cling. That can get annoying with good mixups so I guess Lucario's recovery isn't easy to gimp just because his upB has no attacking hitbox.

Pierce7d · Sep 7, 2008

Eh, Lucario's grab game is very good, and he has an abusable pummel, so watch out for this. Embrace Dolphin Slash outta shield to trump his Dairs. He's very telegraphed, especially with kill moves, so counter.

Also, Lucario isn't that easy to gimp, and trust me, I'm VERY good at gimping. The Lucarios are right on this one.

I don't know about Azen, but I'll take M2k's word for it that he's better than me, lolololol.

Lucario's like to do funny things with their jab combo, and don't realize that it's not really reliable on Marth. Dolphin Slash shines here as well.

Aura DOES give Lucario a range boost on some moves I think.

Still, we're better, because we have better defensive options, enough range to zone out his non-telegraphed moves, and we're quicker.

60:40 Marth imo.

_Kadaj_ · Sep 7, 2008

Yeah this match is a definite 60:40 Marth

Kitamerby · Sep 8, 2008

Pierce7d said:
Aura DOES give Lucario a range boost on some moves I think.

No range boost. Aura Sphere gets more range when charged, but it's still unaffected by damage. Aura Sphere's priority does go up with damage, but it shouldn't matter much since Fair cancels it out anyways.

60:40 Marth. Marth has a definite advantage, but watch out because Lucario can turn it right back in an instant.

Browny · Sep 8, 2008

lucarios throws can KO btw. his fthrow and bthrow can send you below horizontal if you dont DI quick enough, and they are fast enough to catch you off guard. if marth gets grabbed at the edge of the stage and doesnt DI quick enough, he can die at <100 from a properly timed edgehog.

feardragon64 · Sep 8, 2008

djbrowny said:
lucarios throws can KO btw. his fthrow and bthrow can send you below horizontal if you dont DI quick enough, and they are fast enough to catch you off guard. if marth gets grabbed at the edge of the stage and doesnt DI quick enough, he can die at <100 from a properly timed edgehog.

Thanks for the heads up on the throws, but edge-hogging marth is a bit harder(well properly time edge hogging anyways) since his dancing blade is a great stall(he can vary the moment he goes for the edge by at least 1.5 seconds and wait for invincibility frames to wear off. =b

I'd say one of the most annoying qualities of lucario is lingering hitboxes -.-

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) · Sep 8, 2008

this is 50:50 even trust me i fight this match all the time and if lucario gets to 130 and marth fails to KO him then it becomes like 60:40 in lucarios favor because marth is light...imo

Emblem Lord · Sep 8, 2008

No. It's really not even.

This match has been analyzed to death.

It's agreed by **** near everyone on both sides to be 60/40 Marth's favor.

Megavitamins · Sep 8, 2008

Wow, I just played a decent lucario and Lucario can Dair you out of dancing blade down ending slash o_O.

_Kadaj_ · Sep 8, 2008

Emblem Lord has spoken lol :laugh:

Emblem Lord · Sep 8, 2008

Megavitamins: The real question is why are you using the down b as the last hit of DB in the first place?

*shoots you in the head.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 8, 2008

Up and forward are better. I have gotten out of the habit of using down because it's too easy to DI out of and then the opponent can just punish.

_Kadaj_ · Sep 9, 2008

I only use the down variation when there at low percentages at the edge that way they can't punish

Match-Up Discussion #13! Lucario

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