Match-Up Discussion #11! Toon Link

Go ^_^

So this is how little elfen boys start an intimate relationship.....

For the most part you outrange him in close range attacks, but his projectile game is insane. If none of you saw this, it is how TL ***** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olL1UobnAnY

Anyway I'm looking at Viet because he has knowledge of both characters and as such should be able to give a better analysis.

dO_Ob

2nd post

Ok then forward throw to f-smash for and easy 24 damage at 0 zero

You can gilde toss with TL's bombs

Stay within a character lenght between him and he's virtually harmless

Avoid his projectiles at all time they are some of his most primary setups

For edgeguarding with f-airs off stage are good a good tool to set up early kills

You can drop down and counter his upb to stop him from grabbing the edge (not always recommended)

And there's more but I don't want to take up all the fun lol

Nah too bad at first post

Viet. You believe this match up is even sir, prove it to us.

Lol I tried to get 1st post but failed

But I wouldn't say this match up is even tho more like 55:45 or even 60:40

His projectiles are insane indeed but. Once your in a zone where he can't use them it is a different fight with proper spacing he can't shield grab you (as a lot of characters can't) there are little effective moves that can be done by TL out of shield, and his up-b (on ground) can be smash di'ed out of to avoid the final hit and if I'm not mistaken you DS out of it, his f-smash isn't a kill move unless your hit with the second hit, and if hit with the 1st hit you can simply jump to avoid the second hit. His primary kill moves are up-smash, f-air, and u-air, his d-air is suicidle if not hit off stage. So most good TL's will not even attempt. And there's many other things that just put the match-up more in marth's favor

This is going to be a really good discussion.

Anyway in terms of gimping ability. I don't know how many tricks you can pull with TL on his recovery, but once you get him to use that upB Marth has an opportunity to use the dair. However, TL's second jump is massive, so he can attack while using his second jump and not be in a bad position. Also he can tether recover, and he can also bomb recover but I find that a bit situational. TL's second jump definitely makes him harder to gimp than most for Marth.

TL gimping Marth. With three great projectiles at his disposal he can harass Marth as much as he wants, and since he can recover from crazy distances, he can also chase you far off stage if he wishes too. Projectiles almost guarantee that Marth will never get away free from some sort of % when he has to recover. It becomes critical for the Marth to be able to mix it up, as the projectiles can be used to punish any overused method of recovery. I will have to say TL probably has the advantage in terms of gimping ability.

TL's uair is also Marth's worst nightmare. It's an incredibly powerful attack, and basically is a sex kick that attacks Marth's weakness, that is below him. It punishes air dodging as it out lasts air dodge, and if you trade hits by dair'ing at high %'s the trade off will still kill you.

Right now this match up seems to be looking in TL's favor although much more has yet to be factored. I'm done for the night, hope this tid bit helped

I want an MBR signature

But I've never seen that show just listen to music from there

10charmanders

Lol I meant to post signature but if I type in s i g (unspaced) it will automatically type in my address for some reason (its cause of my phone it does wierd rhings sometimes)

Toon Link may have a bit of a restricted range compared to Marth, but that doesn't stop him from having a very effective move set against one of his own (a swordsman). But range should not be an issue with Toon Link as he has THREE different projectiles at his disposal.

People here have already talked about 'getting in TL's zone'. This is definately not a smart critique. How many times do we talk about spacing? Toon Link can use his moves to get you back out if you're too close (sh nair, dsmash etc) and being in tipper range allows Tink to defend/aggress however he likes, especially with projectiles.

However, the match is definately not something I'd calculate as a one sided battle either way. Even though EL states that both Marth's and TL's recovery are 'average', TL probably outshines everyone of the 'average' recoveries in the game. A superior second jump, an up b that keeps him very well protected against most characters (we aren't talking about 'other' characters though).

Toon Link can't rely on fsmash to get rid of Marth; and technically Marth can't either. Marth can't really play overly campy or defensive in this match up because of how well Toon Link can use his projectiles.
All though Marth can just rush and it can easily work for him. But Toon Link has better gimping options against Marth than the other way around.

The biggest issue with Toon Link is his ability to kill, he will often struggle finishing off any character, including Marth.

I'd say Marth has a slight advantage; 55:45.

3xSwords: How is this match looking to be in TL's favor when Marth greatly outranges him and attacks faster and kills better? Look at the whole picture first. Of course things look one sided when you only mention one character's strengths.

This is NOT even. It's like 6/4 Marth.

I'll say that within the later months, the "elites" and I have developed a solid Hookshot game with TL. THAT is his longest range move.

But guess what?

Fsmash ***** that sucker hard. And if Toon Link wants to space at the optimum range, he CANNOT follow up with Nair or the random 'combos' he has (lol I have a combo named after me, SH Hookshot > bomb > hyphen smash). He can also do it to a dash grab. If we're near the ledge, we're probably Bthrow you off. Otherwise, expect Dthrow/Uthrow.

DO NOT airdodge from the throw. You'll just fall bait to Uair which is a vertical kill move with a longass lingering hitbox. It gets weaker on, but it still packs a sh*tload of punch regardless for reasons beyond my understanding (nor do I care, lol).

Like Marth, I like to play TL by zoning and dictating my control space. Since I have projectiles, I like to throw bombs mostly. Retreating Fair/Nair/Bair to lagless arrow is bread and butter of TL's metagame since it's invention, but it's easy to predict, the arrows are slow, and you can powershield them rather easily.

The Fair is my favorite retreat, it has a 4-7 frame delay (somewhere around or slightly above that number) and is TL's horizontal kill move. Don't underestimate it. That being said, all the retreats are nothing since Marth's Falchion ***** that butterknife hard.

I like to JC bomb throws whilst running away toward you or above me so you don't want to approach until it lands. SH bomb to lagless arrow or SH bomb to boomerang are MY bread and butter, but most Toon Links have the same foundation of basics, so it shouldn't matter. Also, we have no glidetoss by the way.

Boomerang can be thrown in 3 directions for where he's facing. Most Toon Link's angle it down since it reflects off the ground as an anti-air maneuver. This has some decent hitstun so it can be followed up by a kill move or as a gimp (since we can angle it toward you).

Which by the way are:

Usmash
Dsmash
Fsmash
Fair
Uair
Utilt

While he has a good amount of kill moves, none of them are safe on block, and if they stale, he'll find difficulty killing.

Usmash is usually done in a dash. Some of us TLs use it for damaging AND killing (we refresh it via Hookshot, aerials, projectiles), others use it for kills purely. It doesn't matter since this is his BEST kill move. It's fast, good priority, can be done out of a dash, and packs a good punch.

If Usmash is overused, we have Utilt, which I discovered kills roughly 6% later (lol). This comes out faster, has lower base knockback at lower % (allowing for several chains into more Bair chains). TL has to be stationary/walking to do it. Don't worry too much about this unless you're under him.

Fsmash is strong, but you can jump out/DI out of it. I think you can DI toward him then jump away or up and away. No one uses TL here so me don't know.

Dsmash sends you up on the second hit. Fast and strong, this thing is another thing to go back on if Usmash decays too much. Also, there's a DI glitch where if the second hit whiffs, you be sent flying backwards from me. This can be done if TL does this facing a slope, or just by bad DI. It set-ups edgehogs, or kills near small blast zones (*cough*Corneria*cough*). It doesn't happen often, but just so you know.

Fair in conjunction with Nair is for offstage gimps (TL is floaty as hell), and kills nicely. He won't approach with this though. He'll try to expose an opening with projectiles to do so.

Uair is basically the copy of Fair for vertical kills. It's a lingering hitbox lasting for like 2 seconds. It has a minor delay (delay can autocancel btw; moar useless stuff), but the initial hit frame deals the most knockback (like GnW's Fair). This thing can kill Marth pretty early (80% on Smashville?), but it's hard to combo into it (Bair is one way, but good DI prevents the follow-up). Like Fair, projectile traps and set-ups will allow for us to get a kill from this.

As it's lingering, following airdodges works like a charm too.

---------------

Anyway, Marth will control this match. TL will play a runaway game and set up bomb walls, boomerang set-ups, and arrows here and there to create a fortress of spam. Boomerang hits on return, so it's annoying. Arrows are just filler to annoy you, if a TL SHDAs (shorthop double arrow), it's like SHDL but slower like a snail. Shield and punish.

Also, there a glitch where he turns back but the arrow still goes forward, it saves us a few frames to run away or try to Bair you away. I'll say almost no one uses it except me, and it's easily punished anyway. Do the same thing as above.

If bombs fly up, airdodge to catch it, glidetoss it toward him or off stage. The smoke is some sort of mindgame (gross I know), and can mess up spacing by fogging up vision. Using this in conjunction with SH boomerang is a distraction for you to get hit by the boomerang if you're not careful.

Boomerang is annoying, but you can eat it with a Fair or whatever. If it's angled weirdly, just kee pin mind when it's coming toward you.

SH Hookshot will out range Fair, but Fsmash, Ftilt, and SB will outrange it. He can use it to weave like Marth's fair though. His Bair acts the same, and can "combo" from a Utilt, low % Usmash, stuff like that.

Nair and Dtilt and dash attack (no one uses that) can trip at low percentages. It can set-up for off stage set-ups or to a Fsmash.

Close range, you win in frames via DB and DS. We only have jab combo which is an okay move only.

As for counterpicks:

Ban FD
CP Battlefield

The platforms prevent a bomb barrage to try to secure a good landing, his sword is short so only Usmash goes through platforms when he's grounded. Overall, you're king here.

Now, Dair can be used as a surprise sometimes. Its has a wind effect and can mess up spacing, and has a hitbox too. If it hits, he bounces up and can do a chain of them. It's a stall-and-fall, so shield and DS or punish after since it's laggy (unlike GameWatch's). Don't Counter as it'll bounce off. Also, it goes through platforms so be weary. If a TL looks like he's trying to pseudo Ken combo you with Bairs to Dair, please just airdodge and let him die. <_<

If I missed anything, let me know.

Basically in this match it's similar to the Falco one from what I can tell.

You have one character that is balanced overall and lacks a projectile and you have another character that isn't quite as good in some areas as the first, but has a very strong projectile game.

TL's projectiles let him do alot, but once Marth gets in, it's his game which is enough to give him advantage.

I'd say Marth vs TL is more like Marth vs Snake. Except you're more scared of Snake's range and power. I'd say this in the sense of camping prowess. Toon Link's projectile game is definately superior to Snakes.

I'm tired so my wall has lots of typos. Reread some parts since forgetting a not here or there can completely screw up the meaning of the sentence.

I'll check back in a few hours. My TL friends will probably come tomorrow (those early birds, lol).

Feel free to question anything or tell me a typo.

It is sooooooooooooooo not like Marth vs Snake at all.

Vietgeek: Give a ratio.

6/4 Marth, like you said. I'll give a few here or there so it could be 65/35 Marth's favor. Mostly because after you get in our wall: We're screwed.

This is why you ban FD so we don't have lots of room to run about and try to reset the situation.

Well, you say 'millisecond'

But that is definately not correct.

Millisecond is 1/1000th of a second.

Brawl runs in a 1/60th of a second thing. 5 milliseconds is less than 1 frame.

<_<

*sigh*, I'll go fix it.

*mumble, sucks at math so hard*

It's just a delay, okay? I put some frame approximations but w/e. Ankoku does that crap, not me.

TL's Fair has some start-up delay. We can leave it at that.

im not rly sure if good TL does their tether recovery but if TL does its an easy spike

misterbushido01 said:

im not rly sure if good TL does their tether recovery but if TL does its an easy spike

Click to expand...

If we're recovery near the ledge, we'll probably do it since our Up+B doesn't cling on to the stage unless we're at a certain angle (it has less auto-cling parts than Dolphin Slash).

Feel free to spike TL should the situation present itself.

But know he can survive it via meteor canceling

VietGeek said:

If we're recovery near the ledge, we'll probably do it since our Up+B doesn't cling on to the stage unless we're at a certain angle (it has less auto-cling parts than Dolphin Slash).

Feel free to spike TL should the situation present itself.

But know he can survive it via meteor canceling

Click to expand...

haha ill b sure to spike him whenever he does
yes i do know about meteor cancelling

Emblem Lord said:

3xSwords: How is this match looking to be in TL's favor when Marth greatly outranges him and attacks faster and kills better? Look at the whole picture first. Of course things look one sided when you only mention one character's strengths.

Click to expand...

Yeah I know. I was only going to post once so I wanted to make it so that people would post because they disagreed with my view, and thus make the discussion larger/better. So doing that was on purpose, yo.

Edit: EL where is your huge analysis? At least post the advantages the characters have over each other, so that we have something good for the eyes.

I play my friend a lot and the only character he uses is toon link.

his projectile game is incredible, but once you close the gap, just hit him at tipper length, where he can't reach.

he also can't do much against your dancing blade.

IF you are caught in his annoying F-Smash, Just shield the first hit, and use...Up-B before the 2nd hit.

He's light, so at high enough damage that will screw him.

just don't let him get away, or you'll regret it.

60/40 Marth

3xSwords said:

Yeah I know. I was only going to post once so I wanted to make it so that people would post because they disagreed with my view, and thus make the discussion larger/better. So doing that was on purpose, yo.

Edit: EL where is your huge analysis? At least post the advantages the characters have over each other, so that we have something good for the eyes.

Click to expand...

Good luck with that, it seems I was the only TL user here (which, by the way, is saddening), my wall of text makes like 2/3 of this thread's meat.

Also, with my huge analysis, I don't think EL really cares. Sure, I didn't give out either advantages, but it's implied Marth is going to try to **** TL, not the other way around, so that should suffice, imo.

*Sigh* yeah whatever, I guess I thought this discussion would be awesome, but that was probably b/c the previous one was.... yeah

And is it already over? .......not even a day. Something is wrong with this picture imo. And also why no TL players come here?

Well I expected you to pull out a huge post and you did Viet, good **** son .

Emblem will still make his input, but yeah I don't see this discussion going anywhere. Marth clearly has the advantage and we know why.

I do have a question, I don't think it is used that often but can you smash DI out of his spin attack? Both on stage and aerial one plx..

Yeah you can. I'm not sure of the exact inputs, but probably up and out with Direction pad and C-stick. I'll go check later.

I only do it out of shield, but that's not going to help against Marth unless you screw up spacing badly.

Also, there were moments where I've been able to powershield in-between the spin attack (as the one receiving the blows of course). Such a lame move, I know.

OMG I missed the initial post, *reads*

Theres always something that I might be able to post that hasnt been said already lol.

Toon link can get his invincablilty back when hanging on the edge by pressing back then tethering quickly. so basically you have to time dolphin slash perfectly if hes edge hogging you.

Am I too late to contribute anything Viet? T_T
Sorry I just got home. >_>

Jabs cancel TL's projectiles.
So does fair.

Plus you can catch items easier in this game.
Fair ***** arrows and boomerangs plus you can catch our bombs with it.

TL shouldn't be able to hit your shield and not get punished unless its a very well spaced Zair.

Fair out of shield ***** Toon's Nair,Bair, and Fair.

Just watch out for zair cause that's all we have against Marth's superior range.

**** I meant to post in Link section....sorry

Anyways this thread was useful again for the Marth Link matchup. Good analysis.

my friend has an insane Meta game on me when I play him Marth (me) V.S. TL (him) I would show you a vid but neither me or him have a vid camera and I don't know how to post my replays fom my SD card to my comp and up load them.

anyways he hits me every time with that boomerang (if I dodge he attacks me with his crazy combo and if I perfect shield he grabs me with his chain, and if I jump he just plays defense) I also have trouble with my SH if some one could give me some pointers on that too it would be great

Why do people keep bumping these?!
Its months old.

Maybe we should just get them locked after we're done with them.

Ugh wtf Masamune... Instead of bumping this crap and asking for help, READ THE **** THREAD! That's what'll help you....

>_____>

we underestimate our matchups too much.

toon stands a very good chance against marth. Basically, you can NEVER approach from the ground or from SH range. You WILL get hit with zair. His ability to airdodge and zair at anytime is too good against Marth's fair and other approaches.

From what i've experienced against jerm and HR, you have to full hop in and time it very well. What i do is full hop in with fast falled fair, usually hit his shield, then either jab or upB based on his response. His grab takes too long to come out at short range so you can upB it. (note: this wont work if you space the fair because the grab outranges your upB at this range.) If he tries to nair OOS, you can jab to shut it down then either DB or grab during his stun.

Once im inside i will start DB1 to dtilt, jab, DB1, etc. Basically use the fast short-ranged attacks. Dont bother spacing with fair at all in this matchup.