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Match Up Discussion: Falco ~

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
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7,587
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Los Angeles, CA
Lasers:

I usually deal with them by just shielding, but there are plenty of other options. Rolling, SHAD, jumping etc.

If he is doing the SHDL walk under the high one, shield (power shield if you can) the low one. Once you get too close to him so it's unsafe for him to shoot more lasers he will try and keep you away with his reflector. Try and space your self just outside of it and punish when he misses.

Falco's chain grab:

You can up-b out of it, maybe not if it is done PERFECTLY. Don't get predictable with your up-b though, the falco will recognize this, wait for you to do it, and punish you once you are vulnerable.

His Side-B Recovery:

If you see it coming, be ready to go to about the middle of the stage and punish his after lag.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
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Unlimited Blade Works
For those of you waiting for the synopsis and for me to release the new match up thread, I apologize. Stuff that's been going on the past few days has been a little hectic. But I should be able to get Snake and R.O.B.'s threads finished today, and this thread is up for you who are itching to get the topics going.

Falco is likely to be an easier match up to Marth than most higher tier characters. Excluding the lasers, Marth dominates Falco in every aspect of close combat, both in range and power. Falco may have an attack here and there that catches you off guard with speed, but that should be easily dealt with once you know the match up. His Chain Grab only last two hits at the absolute best, and one should also spam Dolphin Slash to get out of the third grab or in case Falco messes up. Falco is also very easy to gimp, as a few Fairs below the stage make it impossible for him to return. I'm almost positive there is some Throw - FSmash combo you can use for easy percent, and if Falco camps carelessly too close to the edge, you can Chain FThrow's on him to a Dair spike at the edge, which he is helpess against.

This match up is very simple. The lasers are your only obstacle. The better the user is with lasers, the longer they will live.
 

Nibbity

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
368
Location
Connecticut
THANK YOU, I've been waiting for this ever since I was born. I have to fight Falco ALL the time.

^^^ Yes you can dolphin slash out of that. Also out of his continuous down grab combo, or the Falco Pillar.

Anyone for suggestions on how to stop his B over recovery? Only good timing is my answer, or to get to him before he starts.

It's just frustrating. yaaarrrggghhh.
 

Shök

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
2,251
his recovery is easily spikeable and edgehoggable, so you can destroy him when he's coming back to the stage, But only if he is not in range to use his side B, then do what Steel2nd said.
 

eskimo bob

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
149
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
first of all his chaingrab: falco has trouble cging marth (it is possible, just harder than other.) he can grab and then dthrow you from 0% to 45% which is about 5 times. you can upb out of it from about 9% (more or less) and up. I'm unsure of what else breaks it. now that that's outta the way:

you out range him with just about everything you have (if you count out his lasers), keep away from him as much as possible so he can't grab you but you still have some options, learn his distance with his side b so you can punish it by for example standing at the end of it so you'll still get hit but counter it so you get him back off the edge. that usually gets your opponent off guard (unless you use it to death, of course) and it often puts you in an advantageous position by making falco fall of the stage with no jumps left and below the edge. if he has a jump left and he's in a good position to get back on stage, don't engage him. he will spike you in one way or another and that second jump will be used to kill you in one way or another (80% chance of getting spiked, though.) if you're gonna kill him somehow I find pivot fsmashes useful, but I don't play that many great falcos. if you play safe the match goes pretty decent. falcos aggressive game is what he does best and is therefore obviously way better than marths. all in all play safe, patiently and try not to engage him off stage close to the edge since being below falco = most certain death.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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Marth's advantages

- Heavier
- More range overall
- Greater knockback
- Slightly harder to gimp
- Has good damaging combos at low percents
- Has a death combo at low percents as well
- Faster running speed and greater mobility overall


Falco's advantages

- Camping tactics with lasers and shine
- Evasive tactics with Phantasm
- Possible CG (Can be escaped with up b)
- Possible Death combo ( Again, it can be escaped with up b)
- Good damaging combo at lower percents off of grab. ( Dash attack cancelled u-smash)
- Good Roll
- Good spot-dodge


Marth pretty much wins in all areas, except Falco has the ability to camp him. They both have grab combos on each other as well. Overall though Marth has better damage output and a better gimp game and he will generally outlive Falco.

Since Falco has lasers Marth has to approach. When Falco jumps for a SH laser dash in. You will go under the high laser and then Falco can still shoot another which most will do. If the second laser is too high you can keep closing in. Dash to shield will keep you safe from the second laser. If you block a laser you can go for a grab if you are close enough which can beat anything he tries other then rolling away. One strategy is to space yourself just outside the range of the shine. When Falco jumps for a SHL Marth can dash in and punish Falco before he can do anything after he shoots that first laser. And since the strat involves you just being outside shine range, if he DOES try to shine he will miss and he will then be at your mercy.

Speaking of shine, it's very annoying ,but not deadly or even threatening. It does a bit of damage and there is a chance it can trip, but Falco can't take advantage of it. If it's blocked Falco is screwed and you can easily get a tipper smash. Also if Falco does the shine at close range and it doesn't trip then he is at frame disadvantage so you can still punish him. Because of these reasons, good Falcos may not use shine that often, which is fine for you since the shine inhibits your approach and can be annoying. FYI you can't SH over the shine so don't try.

As far as CGing goes, it's been said before you can up b out of them. Try to wait till you see Falco run a bit for the re-grab before you up b since Falco's will try to wait that out then punish. Falco can do D-throw Dair on Marth near the ledge as a death combo. Situational yes, but it does exist. I don't think you can up b before the Dair, but you can meteor cancel it of course so if you are fast then you shouldn't die. Falco can also D-throw to DAC. That's not escapable as far as I know. Just try not to get grabbed which isn't even that hard since you outrange him.

Marth has very similar grab combos on Falco. F-throw to F-throw to Dancing Blade will do good damage. So will F-throw to F-smash. Marth can also F-throw to F-throw to Dair on Falco and there is no way Falco can survive it since his up b is terrible. Sethlon has said that Falco can't DI out of , but D1 has said it's possible. I will say that at 0%, F-throw to Dair definitely isn't escapable, but two F-throws to Dair might be.

Falco has a really good roll so when he is pressured expect him to try to get away from you. Falco is mostly going to be playing an evasive game and try to frustrate you into making stupid mistakes. Don't be fooled. Keep your calm. He has the laser, yes that is true, but Marth is the one who is in control of this fight. Marth has better options then Falco overall. Falco will also try to use his phantasm to get away. Again, keep your cool. When you see him wind up for it be ready to shield it, roll back, or f-smash him. If you shield it then close the distance quickly to reset your spacing. If you rolled back you can probably punish him.

As far as gimping him goes it's all about conditioning. You have to get him into the habit of doing something so you can take advantage of it. If he has a habit of going for the stage with Phantasm then you need to punish him repeatedly for it. Once he starts going for the ledge due to being punished you can edgehug him on recovery for easy gimps. Then he will most likely stop going for the ledge and the process repeats itself.

An easy way to punish phantasm on recovery is to just shield about three or four character lengths away from the ledge. When he goes through you release your shield and punish. It's a very safe way to punish Falco without taking any real risk.

All in all after doing alot research on the match and playing the match from both sides Marth definitely has the advantage.

The question is how much of an advantage?

60/40 sounds right, but it could even be 65/35.

Also Falco may try to approach with Nairs when you are close but you can up b him after you block since he can't outspace your range with that move.

Falco may also try SH single lasers and omit the first high laser but the dash in strategy still applies.

Overall Falco rally has no reliable close range options on Marth. Anything he tries is either outspaced or unsafe. And if he goes for a grab he takes the risk of being hit since once again Marth has the range advantage. Basically if Falco gets a hit off with a move it's because Marth screwed up his spacing or Falco just read him correctly. If Marth plays smart it's heard for Falco to get in good damage and even harder to get kills. Falco also has standing lasers but Marth can eat those while walking forward and when Falco puts his gun away Marth can close in or punish if he is close enough.
 

adumbrodeus

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PhantomBrawler is saying that there's a walking chaingrab from 0-45% that's inescapable here. That + DLX equates to about 70% if caught at 0.

He hasn't substantiated it at all, yet. But assuming this is in fact a 0-70% combo, how would this effect the match-up since we've now concluded it's approx. 60-40 in marth's favor?
 

bludhoundz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
525
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New York, NY
PhantomBrawler is saying that there's a walking chaingrab from 0-45% that's inescapable here. That + DLX equates to about 70% if caught at 0.

He hasn't substantiated it at all, yet. But assuming this is in fact a 0-70% combo, how would this effect the match-up since we've now concluded it's approx. 60-40 in marth's favor?
You can DI out of the DLX upsmash hit once you're at 45% - that's only really guaranteed at low percentages. You won't take quite 70%, and that's still assuming that the Falco chaingrabs you perfectly.

Marth has more range than Falco in his general attacks, so just don't let him shieldgrab you or get close enough to grab.
 

tomdude

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
33
Location
England
An excellent way to stop Falco's side B is just to Nair it with Marth. Works all the time for me.
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
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Oct 14, 2007
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Toronto, Ontario
Get good at the chain grab to spike combo with Marth. I'm able to land it pretty consistantly now, and it looks/feels awesome :p

Marth definately has the advantage in this matchup. Get close to him and you're good.
 

Hype

Smash Lord
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Mississauga, Ontario
Falco can chain grab you twice and then do his dash attack canceled Usmash for 40 some damage. So make sure you space well and aviod his grab. Good falco will try to silent laser into a grab, which isn't a true combo but can catch you off guard.

when edge guarding I stay on the map, unless I know I can hit him Before he can use his phantasm or he is below the map. When hes going to use his phantasm I like to roll into the edge of the stage so I can either press diagonally down and grab the edge or fox trot forward and pivot smash to punish his landing lag. If you can get falco below the map in a position where he must use his up B either edge hog or drop down and hit him with the first hit of your dancing blade.

In addition to Marth's 0 to death on falco, you also have another trick up your sleeve. You can Down throw to Dancing blade him anywhere from 0-17%.

Fthrow > Fthrow > Tipper Fsmash = 27%
Fthrow > Dthrow > Side B X4 Green Blade = 35% (DB Tips the whole way through)
 

Rimmer

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
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17
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Sweden
*Reads through thread*

I ****ing knew it. No wonder I have so much trouble.

By the way, as a Falco main, I can say that trying to get attacking opportunities with SHDL is useless because Marth can Fair/Ftilt pretty much the very next frame after being hit with lasers.
 

Jibbles

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
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...
Fthrow > Dthrow > Side B X4 Green Blade = 35% (DB Tips the whole way through)
If my math is correct Dancing Blade does 26% which is impossible with stale move negation. You must've tested this in training mode. Unless you did some pummels, of course. DI can affect the outcome of the last down Dancing Blade hits.
 

mosesrko24

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
107
Falco seems like a character that you should try to juggle trap more than ledge trap. From the ledge, falco can LHDL, use his reflector or use his quick phantasm get back on stage. I know marth has an answer for falco's ledge options, but bad DI + a bad airdodge + a dair that can't beat a well timed uair from marth= falco being juggle bait.
 

PotatoTube

Smash Cadet
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Aug 19, 2008
Messages
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Illinois
Falco seems like a character that you should try to juggle trap more than ledge trap. From the ledge, falco can LHDL, use his reflector or use his quick phantasm get back on stage. I know marth has an answer for falco's ledge options, but bad DI + a bad airdodge + a dair that can't beat a well timed uair from marth= falco being juggle bait.
I agree completely
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
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Florida
Who else remember's Ulevo's amazing Marth guide that he deleted?

*misses 08 Marth boards.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
Where do you find these old *** threads? I don't see an archive anywhere! I'm blind T.T
 
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