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EVO 2k8 (no rules discussion)

StrippersandBeer

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Alex Strife

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wow srk still makes me sad about this....im not going cause of the rules and the prices its too much
 

StrippersandBeer

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true. the prize isn't like the years past ($5k).

i've been going to evo before that. when it wasn't about the $5k 1st place prize. it was about going to the largest gathering of gamers and finding out who was the best and at the top of their game.

evo is known world wide throughout the gaming community. my best advice is accept the new rules as evo's overall decision, move on, and find out how to play the game by their rules.

the rules are set. i'm going to go and compete in the games i love to compete in, at a yearly tourny i love to go to, have a great time, and hopefully do stuff i'm going to regret and never forget and leave it in vegas (:
 

Alex Strife

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true. the prize isn't like the years past ($5k).

i've been going to evo before that. when it wasn't about the $5k 1st place prize. it was about going to the largest gathering of gamers and finding out who was the best and at the top of their game.

evo is known world wide throughout the gaming community. my best advice is accept the new rules as evo's overall decision, move on, and find out how to play the game by their rules.

the rules are set. i'm going to go and compete in the games i love to compete in, at a yearly tourny i love to go to, have a great time, and hopefully do stuff i'm going to regret and never forget and leave it in vegas (:
*sighs*:( 10 char
 

GenoBlast

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Would go if items were off =\

I'd much rather just continue to go to the countless underground tournaments held and advertised through smashboards. All of which i'm sure have a better set of rules than evo.

Nothing wrong with evo doing whatever they want, but I wouldn't expect many pro players to be there.
 

Hall

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I'm going with a small group of friends, but the biggest problem we have so far is finding a hotel that will accommodate people under 21. Any suggestions of hotels that will accept people under 21?
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Please edit the prize info into the first post. We don't want people to be confused and think prizes will be like last year.
 

Alex Strife

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Would go if items were off =\

I'd much rather just continue to go to the countless underground tournaments held and advertised through smashboards. All of which i'm sure have a better set of rules than evo.

Nothing wrong with evo doing whatever they want, but I wouldn't expect many pro players to be there.
sadly by not getting the assistance of smashboards as they did with TekkenZaibatsu this tournament is a failure. Though speaking to a lot of people on the inside...it was done on purpose so w/e
 

Dogysamich

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Evo is clearly in support of the game we all love, Smash Bros. This is BRAWL'S 1st Evo, not melee's, so it's a new game and new rules. Please keep an open mind and open heart or it's just going to be a shouting match between two groups, and honestly, from a distance, if a genius is arguing with a moron, you can't tell the difference who is who.

Ok, i dont play brawl enough to care about the ruleset arguement.

I just want to make the statement once again that I think it's hilarious that EVO and SRK is hopping all over brawl when Brawl is everything both groups have claimed to hate about melee for years.

And i love how EVO is basically flipping the script on Brawl players and telling them to shut up and go along for the ride because "We've been making rules for fighting games since you guys have been in diapers".

I feel sorry for brawl players.

And for the record, i want to meet the 40+ year old guy who's running EVO.

Keits, lol. Guy runs down to ATL south on SRK and tries to call me ******** because i have the ability to read his posts and click the quote button. That's why his buddys dont even listen to his suggestions. And i thought Dark Prince had a bad rep. XD

After having to listen to people complain about how EVO blatantly ignored smashboards, and then publicly admitting to ignoring smashboards, i dont see why smashboards allows this thread to be here.
___

And again, i dont play brawl enough to care about arguing for the "rules" so dont try to play a stupid brawl playing kid card on me.

I'm still confused how GGAC got dropped, and how this is supposed "The last year" for cvs2.


__

 

theONEjanitor

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I honestly hope the brawl community boycotts this dumb tourney.

and lol @ evo thinking they can "usurp" smash.

lol @ creating a smash tournament and ignoring the community that invented competitive smash about how to run it.

I doubt anyone is even going to repect the winner of evo's scrub tourney, if anyone even goes to it.
 

GenoBlast

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Not trying to bash evo or anything here, but I just don't understand why they want to make their own rule set.
The majority of tournaments are going to continue to use the traditional smash rules maybe with a few minor tweaks along the way, evo is not going to be able to change the way smash is currently played at the competitive level no matter how prestigious they are. So why not try and cash into what the real competitors want to play, and why try to fix what isnt broken?

I wont state my comments as to why I disagree with the current rules, as you have already stated this thread is not made for that purpose.
 

MajinSweet

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What exactly is positive about it? Earlier you said...

"evo is known world wide throughout the gaming community. my best advice is accept the new rules as evo's overall decision, move on, and find out how to play the game by their rules.

the rules are set. i'm going to go and compete in the games i love to compete in, at a yearly tourny i love to go to, have a great time, and hopefully do stuff i'm going to regret and never forget and leave it in vegas (:"


This basically says to me, just do what evo tells you to do because evo said so. Despite the fact that evo has a history of being disrespectful to smashers and the smash brothers series. Doesn't really make sense to me. It's only natural that people would be upset by this, and these rules won't catch on so I see no reason to "find out how to play the game by their rules.".

Sorry, I would also like to mention that I didn't intend or want to start an argument about this--that comment just struck me as odd.
 

Axis

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Yea it's just sad the way the whole thing went down, but the rules are set and there's no changing them so there is no use debating over them anymore...
 

StrippersandBeer

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it was my best attempt to identify with others who are in the same predicament as i am.

going to compete at a tourny for the game i love to play in, even though it isn't by the rules i, or the community, is use to.

there are those who are going and want to network with others who are as well. that is the point of this thread.

i am doing what i chose to do, accepting the rules provided i must play by, and hopefully having a postive experience.

please don't think for a second i didn't want evo to change their ways and allow the smash community to play by it's established rules.

i personally appealed to staff of evo, hoping to have at least a slight influence on their decision for the rules, but it obviously wasn't a success. so from there, i accepted evo's rules for brawl, and am practicing thusly.

so from here on out, i hope you can see where i'm coming from and aren't confused on my viewpoints on evo.

a simple example i like to use is if nintendo were to throw a tourny with rules you aren't use to, would you still go? this is evo's tournament. go if you wish. but please don't be negative towards the people who do wish to go.
 

Qzzy

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Why is everyone so offended about the rules? They are hosting it, it's their call. They don't have to listen to us. If you don't like it simply don't go. The people on smashboards have done bigger and better tournaments anyway.

The only thing I'm hoping for is for a least a few people from here and AiB to go and dominate. Not so we can tell them that we were right, but to tell them this is our game and that we can't be beaten.

But oh my god, i would not blame anyone but the locals to go with that kind of prize money. I heard it was bad, but that's just ridiculous.
 

theONEjanitor

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Why is everyone so offended about the rules? They are hosting it, it's their call. They don't have to listen to us. If you don't like it simply don't go. The people on smashboards have done bigger and better tournaments anyway.

The only thing I'm hoping for is for a least a few people from here and AiB to go and dominate. Not so we can tell them that we were right, but to tell them this is our game and that we can't be beaten.

But oh my god, i would not blame anyone but the locals to go with that kind of prize money. I heard it was bad, but that's just ridiculous.
It sucks because they're going to run this psuedo-tournament and some scrub is gonna win the grand prize with a golden hammer, and we're going to have a whole legion of noobs that think Item play is legitimate smashing. Kids are going to actually win money from this random luckbased shizz.
 

StrippersandBeer

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It sucks because they're going to run this psuedo-tournament and some scrub is gonna win the grand prize with a golden hammer, and we're going to have a whole legion of noobs that think Item play is legitimate smashing. Kids are going to actually win money from this random luckbased shizz.
dang. i feel for this guy. frustration is the worst. just let it go dude. evo is happening. just let things be and you'll start to feel a lot better.

save it all for after evo, then, then you can say EVERYTHING you really want to say with some proof to back it all up.

having said that, fact is, someone is going to win this tourny. i'm going to make sure it's not a walk in the park. pshsh. who am i kidding. candy from a baby. sad. ):
 

SamuraiPanda

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I was sorely disappointed in all of EVO's decisions, and everything that happened between us and them. I was in the middle of the debates since the beginning, which wasn't fun at all.

Honestly, EVO is not worth going to this year. I was intending on driving down, personally, until this ruleset. In my opinion, items-on Smash is a different game from items-off Smash, so EVO isn't running the game I compete with in tournaments. Not only that, but there is no guaranteed pot this year. EVO is like any other Smash tournament now where attendance is what determines payout. With a ruleset like that, they will have significantly less of a turnout. I'd say anything from 1/8th to 1/6th of what they could have gotten. They really shot themselves in the foot for no good reason.

So why go to EVO? The money isn't going to be good, the tournament isn't going to be fun, and its quite far for most Smashers. More than most other people, I wanted to go to EVO badly, as its always been something of a pipe dream of mine to attend EVO as a competitor. But there is no point anymore. Hell, it took this long for an EVO thread to even get made, which is quite sad for what was supposed to be a "high-level tournament."
 

Yuna

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Who's going to this, anyway? I'm not because I hate the rules and I live in Sweden (I might have gone had I not hated the rules), if you're wondering.

But I wanna know if the best in the US are going and if so, how many of the best players in the US. StrippersandBeer, get a sign-up list going.
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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lol, lotsa QQ goin' on here. *points to the thread Strippersandbeer keeps linking* Go there please.

If I could afford it, I'd go. Without a doubt. Then again, Smash wouldn't be the only game I'd play in. Definitely STHD as well as a number of the expected side tourneys (Without a doubt there'll be a Melee and a Diet Brawl side tourney as well).

As far as Evo's "hate on Smash" line, don't misinterpret the link between Evo and SRK. SRK is full of a good number of people who laugh at anyone that tries to promote anything not Street Fighter. The Evo organizers, however, has been trying to get Smash as a part of Evo since 2k4. They love the series. The rules decided were a compromise between both extremes (All Brawl fans and Diet Brawl fans, which DO exist on the SRK front) and will almost definitely continue to do so in the following years. The likelihood of such a drastic change in their ruleset is incredibly low, and they invested a lot of time and money in order to get Brawl ready for Evo, so the likelihood of it not returning in 2k9, low attendance or no, is even less than the flipflop of the ruleset.

At this point, complaints alone won't change anything for NEXT YEAR let alone this year, and low attendance won't mean much either. Short of an undeniable abuse of a certain part of their ruleset (namely the hot-button issue revolving around items) will get their removal, and even then, the entire gamut of said rule must be proven to Evo staff. There's a few things in their rules I've argued against but are still in play, which I can only hope will be proven come Evo. If not, and they're still in for 2k9? You can expect my entry.

For those that would go ONLY for Smash and have no care about any of the other games there, yeah, this might not be for you. It's not catering to this community's standards. Then again, that's kinda what Evo's always been about. Most people that attend don't show up for merely one game. It's a place for any and all fighters to gather and mesh with others to form one large community for the genre. Just about every game is represented, regardless of them being the centerpieces. Players meet, compete, and all in all just enjoy being immersed in the genre as a whole. It's geared towards a much broader audience than any one-game tournament would be. It's really hard to appreciate it when you don't have more than one game of interest in the genre. Is that bad? Of course not. A lot of people that DO attend for just their one game of expertise, though, have a tendency to walk away from Evo with a new sense of appreciation for other games that make their appearance there.
 

Dogysamich

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DogySamich, theONEjanitor.

This thread at AiB is specifically made for people who share the same feelings about Evo issues as you do:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=20823

please post negative comments in there.

this thread is for those who ARE going and wish to communicate with others who see this positively.
*looks up at url*

No im sorry this is smashboards. Why do i want to go to another forum to talk about a post that is on this forum. I mean, you guys ignore places and come up with stuff, why do you expect others to do the same?

Why dont you just let me go about my business and keep on ranting and raving? If i go to EVO, I never would have played brawl even if it was how the other people wanted it, i'd probably go get scrubbed in cvs2.

You had absolutely no problem ignoring people up to this point, now you're getting upset cause people STILL DONT LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU'RE GIVING LIL TIMMY SOME MONEY.

As much as I constantly hear about people like Jwong going and playing Brawl, and doing well (lord knows he tried in melee), im going to laugh my *** off if he gets annhilated first round by the guy who brought his 4 leaf clover with him.

___

at panda (MEANING NOT AT YOU STRIPPER, CONTINUE TO IGNORE POSTS LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO)

evo as a high level tourney? For the main stream fighting games, that's still true and will always hold out to be true, but overall? Lets be real, they took mariokart one year. I'm surprised they havent followed behind WSOVG and threw in the like of WoW.

___

edit: oh this one made me laugh too
At this point, complaints alone won't change anything for NEXT YEAR let alone this year, and low attendance won't mean much either. Short of an undeniable abuse of a certain part of their ruleset (namely the hot-button issue revolving around items) will get their removal, and even then, the entire gamut of said rule must be proven to Evo staff. There's a few things in their rules I've argued against but are still in play, which I can only hope will be proven come Evo. If not, and they're still in for 2k9? You can expect my entry.
At this point? I know i heard about people complain about this out the gate. But EVO listening to complains?

I'll just say the name Keits one more time, and you can refer to my previous statement about that.

I swear, in all of the most mindboggling stuff i've seen on the internet, i've never actually seen a person who fires off at people for physically being able to read and comprehend.


 

StrippersandBeer

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...frustration....

dude. incase you didn't know, i felt that same way.

why would such an event do something like what it's done?

you're absolutely wrong about being ignored.

we have a choice. evo had a choice. decisions were made.

now, please, discontinue with the angryness.

accept what has been done.

if you wish to harbor your angry feelings, i'm telling you now, the only person it will really affect is you. there's better ways to go about this than continually ranting.

i know you don't want to go to another site's thread, and i understand, and maybe should make the "i am not going to evo thread" here too.

anyhow. once again, this thread is for those who wish to network with those GOING.

peace.
 

Qzzy

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It sucks because they're going to run this psuedo-tournament and some scrub is gonna win the grand prize with a golden hammer, and we're going to have a whole legion of noobs that think Item play is legitimate smashing. Kids are going to actually win money from this random luckbased shizz.
It's not a pseudo-tournament. Just a very different one with items, which most of us dislike, including myself.

And you really think some scrub is going to win? We've had legitimate item tournaments for melee, and the results weren't that drastically different. The very best will still win. Results were skewed, but not totally. Items are not luck, but probability. Probability can be manipulated. I'm pretty sure our group of players will know how to use items better then anyone else, and I'm confident our best know how to defend against items better then anyone else as well.

I remember reading a post of a conversation between DSf and TheGameII, with DSF firmly believing he could win items. TheGameII then showed him the prize money structure, which discouraged him greatly.

If our best go, our best will win. If just our average/good players go, our group will probably still win.

And if a scrub somehow does win (unlikely), it sure isn't going to be some grand prize he's getting.

Nothing we can do now but support are our group. So far it only seems like StrippersandBeer and Hall from San Diego.

Good luck, Stripper and Hall!
 

Kiyosuki

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Eh, I had always wanted to go to EVO...not just for Smash but for all sorts of stuff. I do enjoy Third Strike a lot. After a few years though I started hearing all sorts of horror stories about behind the scenes melodrama, and just plain unforgivable levels of petty douchebaggery from one group of players to another. If it's not picking on Smash players, it's picking on Tekken players, or picking on the vs. series players back and fourth. So many overbloated egos trying to ruin it for others in an irrational manner. To me that kind of self indulgant BS completely goes against the spirit of competitive gaming so I lost interest alltogether. I think I'm in between the idea of going to tournies alltogether though for the moment too, otherwise I'd probably try and take all that stuff with a grain of salt like it deserves despite Brawl's flaws as a competitive game.

I know I'm supposed to post this in that Allisbrawl thread but I didn't feel like creating a whole new account just to make one post. You guys who do go though, don't let all that bs get to you.
 

Anth0ny

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The worst thing about this tournament is that it's a lose lose situation for the fans of Smash Bros.

If we don't show up this year, then Brawl won't return next year. They probably won't consider Melee unfortunately either.

However, if we do show up, then we're agreeing with Evo and making them think everything is going right, including the ruleset.

There is no "not show up until they change the rules" option in effect. They will drop this "kiddy, party game" as soon as they could. It's a god **** shame -__-
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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The worst thing about this tournament is that it's a lose lose situation for the fans of Smash Bros.

If we don't show up this year, then Brawl won't return next year. They probably won't consider Melee unfortunately either.

However, if we do show up, then we're agreeing with Evo and making them think everything is going right, including the ruleset.

There is no "not show up until they change the rules" option in effect. They will drop this "kiddy, party game" as soon as they could. It's a god **** shame -__-
Again, I'd be amazed, what with all the time and money Evo staff has invested in this (Wiis, unlocking everything) JUST for Brawl, that something as little as "lower than Melee 2k7 attendance" would make them remove Brawl from their lineup. Wiz himself has said as much. The one aspect that Evo staff currently has against the Smash community lies in their reactions to Melee 2k7, which, had Brawl not come out, would have made Melee dropped along w/ Guilty Gear. The attitude that came from the players that finished in the top spots regarding how Evo was run was nearly as offensive as the lack of the finalists of GGAC not showing up for their finals.

Brawl's entry gave Evo staff a reason to try again, but watching the community look at the game for roughly a month before going with Melee standard because that's what was "preferred" made them a little standoffish to Evo staff, and that's half the reason we have the ruleset we have today. It's completely contradictary to the philosophy of how every other game they've ever handled is run. At this point, much like the GG crowd, it's gonna take some mature action to get what you want, and even then, it's mostly going to continue to be a compromise until it can be proven that one way is fundamentally better over the other. Not just different. Not just preferred. Boycotting just looks like an immature pout and won't change their minds at all. The Evo way must be proven detrimental to the game. Until then, the only thing that will happen is a continuance of the experiment until proven otherwise.
 

Firestorm88

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true. the prize isn't like the years past ($5k).

i've been going to evo before that. when it wasn't about the $5k 1st place prize. it was about going to the largest gathering of gamers and finding out who was the best and at the top of their game.

evo is known world wide throughout the gaming community. my best advice is accept the new rules as evo's overall decision, move on, and find out how to play the game by their rules.

the rules are set. i'm going to go and compete in the games i love to compete in, at a yearly tourny i love to go to, have a great time, and hopefully do stuff i'm going to regret and never forget and leave it in vegas (:
That bolded bit was a really stupid thing to say for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's obviously going to derail this topic (and already has). Second of all, it implies that they set the community rules which is completely false. The competitive authority on Smash Bros is not Evo, it is SmashBoards (more specifically, the Smash Back Room). I do not say this as an important member of the site, I say this as an observer. At this point, nobody thinks of Evo as anything more than a glorified GameStop tournament when it comes to Smash.

I have nothing against anyone who goes to this tournament. It sounds like it'll be fun for those who like the ruleset. However, don't give them more credit than they deserve and look down on this community.
Again, I'd be amazed, what with all the time and money Evo staff has invested in this (Wiis, unlocking everything) JUST for Brawl, that something as little as "lower than Melee 2k7 attendance" would make them remove Brawl from their lineup. Wiz himself has said as much. The one aspect that Evo staff currently has against the Smash community lies in their reactions to Melee 2k7, which, had Brawl not come out, would have made Melee dropped along w/ Guilty Gear. The attitude that came from the players that finished in the top spots regarding how Evo was run was nearly as offensive as the lack of the finalists of GGAC not showing up for their finals.

Brawl's entry gave Evo staff a reason to try again, but watching the community look at the game for roughly a month before going with Melee standard because that's what was "preferred" made them a little standoffish to Evo staff, and that's half the reason we have the ruleset we have today. It's completely contradictary to the philosophy of how every other game they've ever handled is run. At this point, much like the GG crowd, it's gonna take some mature action to get what you want, and even then, it's mostly going to continue to be a compromise until it can be proven that one way is fundamentally better over the other. Not just different. Not just preferred. Boycotting just looks like an immature pout and won't change their minds at all. The Evo way must be proven detrimental to the game. Until then, the only thing that will happen is a continuance of the experiment until proven otherwise.
Are you Evo staff? This sounds like bull****. After the tournament, I believe it was one of the staff members of Evo who praised the Melee community in his blog about the event. Almost directly after the event, there was someone from SRK (might have been staff as well) already asking us our opinions on what we'd like for Brawl in Evo if it came out by Evo 2008. He realized not everybody was happy with how things were done right away and wanted to reach a compromise, which people were very receptive to. I can try to dig out the topic if you'd like.
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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The competitive authority on Smash Bros is not Evo, it is SmashBoards (more specifically, the Smash Back Room).
Like any other tournament, the authority is by the tournament organizer alone. If they choose to follow the views of SWF/SBR, that's their choice. No one has authority over a tournament but those who run it.

Are you Evo staff? This sounds like bull****. After the tournament, I believe it was one of the staff members of Evo who praised the Melee community in his blog about the event. Almost directly after the event, there was someone from SRK (might have been staff as well) already asking us our opinions on what we'd like for Brawl in Evo if it came out by Evo 2008. He realized not everybody was happy with how things were done right away and wanted to reach a compromise, which people were very receptive to. I can try to dig out the topic if you'd like.
Hey, I'm just going off what I've been told by Wiz on several occasions. Overall, the reception was fine, but a number of top players (I hear Wiz point out PC Chris the most when Melee 2k7 ever comes up) really made a bad impression last year, much like the finalists of GG did (in a different way and not nearly as bad of one, however). But that's beside the point. It's only a part of why we see Brawl as we do today in Evo.

The real fact is that the three primary members of the Evo staff (the Cannons and Wiz) all wanted to see items in Brawl, and there wasn't really much that could be said to change that, aside from showing them precisely why they were detrimental to play. Hell, when Melee was first presented to them in 2k4, the Cannons (before the Nintendo fiasco) practically insisted to leave items in, as it was then that the community started to split on the notion. It was never truly shown to be a problem, just a preference, and the compromise was created.
 

Yuna

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Hey, I'm just going off what I've been told by Wiz on several occasions. Overall, the reception was fine, but a number of top players (I hear Wiz point out PC Chris the most when Melee 2k7 ever comes up) really made a bad impression last year, much like the finalists of GG did (in a different way and not nearly as bad of one, however). But that's beside the point. It's only a part of why we see Brawl as we do today in Evo.
Wiz is hardly a good source for objective facts.

In his thread about discussing the ruleset, where he claimed to be "open for discussion" though he was not, one of the rules were "Any uncivil language will result in an automatic ban" (not verbatim). Guess what, someone said "You're a ****ing idiot" to me. And despite the fact that I was perfectly civil and almost not even sarcastic at all (in order to not even come close to challenging that rule) before and after that post, the user was not banned.

In order to guarantee that Wiz saw the post at hand, I PM:ed him. No response. A few days later, I PM:ed him again. No response. Needless to say, Wiz, not so objective. His "facts", not objective at all.

I can't remember the name of the member who insulted me at the moment, but according to other SRK posters, he's one of the most hated SRK-members so it's not like they'd hesitate to ban him. I can only assume Wiz thouroughly ignored the matter because I was one of the most vocal anti-item debaters and as such, he thought I didn't deserve the same rights as any other SRK-members and that the rules that he himself put up did not apply to me (lest they could be used to ban me, I guess. I doubt I would've gotten away with saying the same thing).

The real fact is that the three primary members of the Evo staff (the Cannons and Wiz) all wanted to see items in Brawl, and there wasn't really much that could be said to change that, aside from showing them precisely why they were detrimental to play. Hell, when Melee was first presented to them in 2k4, the Cannons (before the Nintendo fiasco) practically insisted to leave items in, as it was then that the community started to split on the notion. It was never truly shown to be a problem, just a preference, and the compromise was created.
1) Yeah, this is obvious. We tried to reason with Wiz. We told him a bunch of things. He didn't even try to debate us, as opposed to many of the other SRK members who at least tried to debate and refute us. Wiz just went "The rules are set, we made some tests, they proved items don't skew results too much (these were limited testing done by less knowledgable people who do not even know what to look out for other than obvious gimp kills)." and that was the end of that.

And this is why we're upset. It's not that they just went "We'll do it our way". They didn't even listen to us, even though they claimed they would, and they claimed to have proven their standpoint, even though they hadn't.
2) What compromise, really? The fact that not all items are allowed? What items compromise arose out of this? Evo 2K7 didn't have items because Smash was a last-minute addition. They didn't have the time to "test" items out to determine a good items list. There was no compromise, they just didn't have enough time. For 2k8, I see no compromise at all. Have they even revised the banned items list after we protested? I mean, last time I checked, Golden Hammers and Smash Balls were still on.

NOTE: This is not mindless whining. This is setting facts straight. I was there in the eye of the storm. Even though I didn't read all of that big thread of suck, I read a lot of it. Don't come here and spread misinformation, even if it comes from Wiz himself.
 
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