Infinite Second Jump Recovery List and Discussion [SEPT 7] - 19 videos!

Original thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172824

Credit to Chaotic for discovering this! Also credit for 3xSwords for "rediscovering" this and bringing it to my attention in the Marth forums.

Updates:
[JUNE 1] - Thread started! - Fixed Peach's list and #7 in the Summary.
[JUNE 2] - Added note about Peach's Pseudo-ISJR - Added Zairs, Specials, First video, 100% system, and fast falls.
[JUNE 3] - Snake/Lucario/Yoshi/Peach/Misc videos added - List updated - Special Thanks added - CREDIT!
[JUNE 4] - Snake/Bowser videos added - List updated - Multi-attack system added
[JUNE 5] - Lucario/G&W/Pit videos added - List updated - Video request section added
[JUNE 6] - Pit video added - List updated - Requests added
[JUNE 7] - Diddy video added - List updated
[JUNE 11] - List updated - Requests added
[JUNE 12] - Another Summary added - Requests added
[JUNE 14] - Ness video added - List updated
[JUNE 30] - Ganondorf video added
[JULY 10] - Jigglypuff video added
[SEPT 7] - Two Link videos added


(The purpose of this thread is to explain which character's aerials are ISJR'able, also to discuss the technique, uses of the technique, and to help make the list 100% accurate, as the amount of time this requires is crazy)


Similar to Bowser's infinite jump using his side-B, it has been discovered that every character can cancel the very end of any of his or her aerials into a buffered jump, essentially creating a lagless aerial that can be linked into a number of things.


Second Jump Recover (SJR) - Timing an aerial so that the ending lag may be canceled into a buffered jump without any landing/jumping lag.

Infinite Jump Recover (ISJR) - SJR'ing an aerial as many times as you want without landing/jumping lag. Only certain aerials are able to be ISJR'd.

Summary:

Gorron333 said:

ISJR is a technique in brawl that was only just discovered. Basically, if you time it right, even after you've double jumped, you can jump AGAIN by using an air move and have it end JUST before you land.

-Gorron333

Click to expand...

Ekaru said:

1. SJR is done by timing an aerial so it ends a certain amount of time before it hits the ground, then buffering a jump at the end of the aerial.

2. When done correctly, the # of air jumps left counter is reset, and one is taken away for the SJR.

3. ISJR is performed by doing a SJR out of the double jump of the pervious SJR, and can be done continiously.

4. SJR can be done with any move, but ISJR can only be done with certain moves.

5. An example of an ISJR is Charizard's uair, and is probably one of the easiest to learn. Charizard can also do it with his fair and bair, not sure about nair.

6. Some characters have a long enough double jump that they can do ANY aerial for a ISJR. Yoshi is an example of this.

7. Apparently can't be done with specials or air dodges.
Can be done with air dodges and specials that have landing clouds/dust when you touch the ground with them.
*This can also be done with Zairs.

8. This move requires practice to do consistently.

9. If you whine about someone ISJRing in a match against you because they beat you, I'll blow your house up. With you in it.

10. Out of a SJR/ISJR, you can choose to air dodge, land, do a special, or use another air jump if you have one. You do NOT have to continue the ISJR.

11. In order for a move to be ISJRable, its duration must be at least one frame less than the amount of time the character is in the air after a SJR.

*12. Fast falling an aerial greatly increases your control of when you would hit the ground with the end of your aerial. This is very important. (-Makkun)

- Credit for much of this goes to Makkun.

Click to expand...

Simple steps:

1) Jump (full or short)
2) Second jump (at any time)
3) Perform an aerial
4) Time the aerial so that you land on the ground as the move finishes**
5) Buffer a jump just before you land on the ground.
6) You should second-jump into the air with zero landing lag or jump time, as you are actually recovering your second-jump without touching the ground..

** = The exact frame window is unknown at this point. It is believed to either be as the entire move animation ends or as the ending autocancel frames begin. It could possibly differ between moves. Clarification on this would be appreciated. ):


The List:
Every aerial can be SJR'd. This list shows which aerials can be infinitely SJR'd. (ISJR)
*Fast falling aerials may greatly increase the frame window for inputting the jump command, thus making the timing easier. I will put "-fast fallable" next to aerials that can be fast falled and still be ISJRable.

Makkun said:

Mario:
Nair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Fair - No
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Luigi:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Peach:
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Note that Peach's aerials may need to be pseudo-ISJR'd, meaning the use of her float is needed in order to time the landing. However, this also means Peach may be able to float forever with little aerial breaks in between.

Bowser:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

D.K.:
Nair - Yes
Fair - No
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Diddy:
Nair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Yoshi:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!?
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!?
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!?
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!?
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!?

Wario:
Nair - Maybe
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Link:
Nair - Yes
Fair - No
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - No

Zelda:
Nair - No
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable!?
Dair - Maybe
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!?
Uair - No

Sheik:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Ganondorf:
Nair - No
Fair - No
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Toon Link:
Nair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Dair - No
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Samus:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Zero Suit Samus:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Pit:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

I.C.:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

R.O.B.:
Nair - Most likely
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Kirby:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Metaknight:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Dedede:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Olimar:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Fox:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Most likely
Uair - Yes

Falco:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Wolf:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes

Captain Falcon:
Nair - Most likely
Fair - Yes
Dair - Most likely
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Pikachu:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Squirtle:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Ivysaur:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Most likely
Bair - Yes
Uair - Most likely not

Charizard:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes

Lucario:
Nair - Maybe
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Jigglypuff:
Nair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!

Marth:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes - Multi-air! - Fast fallable!
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Ike:
Nair - No
Fair - No
Dair - No
Bair - No
Uair - No

Ness:
Nair - Yes - Fast fallable! - Multi-air! (?)
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable! - Multi-air! (?)
Dair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable! - Multi-air!
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Lucas:
Nair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Fair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Dair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes - Fast fallable!

Mr. G&W:
Nair - Yes
Fair - No
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Snake:
Nair - Most likely
Fair - Yes
Dair - Yes
Bair - Yes - Fast fallable!
Uair - Yes

Sonic:
Nair - Yes
Fair - Yes
Dair - No
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Zairs that can be ISJR'd
Samus
Toon Link
Lucas

*Link's Zair is not ISJR'able, as it seems to take too long.

Click to expand...

Specials:

Makkun said:

So far we believe that specials that have landing clouds/dust are ISJR'able. We will continue testing until we pretty much figure out which specials can be SJR'd and ISJR'd.

SJR'able Specials
Lucas:
Side-B

Ness:
Side-B

Pikachu:
Neutral-B

Yoshi:
Neutral-B

Falco:
Neutral-B - I doubt this will work, but I'll leave it listed for a short time.

Diddy:
Side-B

Bowser:
Side-B*

ISJR'able Specials
Lucas:
Side-B

Pikachu:
Neutral-B - Most likely not. I'll keep it here for a little while though just to be sure.

Yoshi:
Neutral-B

Falco:
Neutral-B - I doubt this will work, but I'll leave it listed for a short time.

Bowser:
Side-B*

* = Bowser's Side-B produces a similar effect to ISJR, as it does recover your second-jump. However, instead of timing the special so that it ends as he lands, he can actually jump at any time to cancel his klaw's animation.

(It would be greatly appreciated if people could test these and send me the results)

Click to expand...

*Disclaimer - Not every single aerial has been tested, I simply did an instant double-jump, buffered the aerial, then attempted to buffer an air dodge. If an air dodge came out, I decided the aerial was most likely ISJR'able.

*Aerials that I am 100% positive of will be underlined. Ex: Yes or No

*"Multi-air!" means you can, or it is advised that this aerial is performed 2 or more times in the course of one ISJR'd jump.

I ask that if anybody finds a flaw in the list, that they PM me and correct me. I will try to keep this thread as updated as I can.

I also ask that people try and find more practical uses for this technique, as it allows us to have lagless aerials, which is good for combo'ing/juggling.
Apparently landing lag isn't that big of a deal either way. @__@ I guess this technique just gives a lot of mobility.
@__o This technique gives mobility and speed! Will hopefully be extremely useful for juggling and combos!

Videos:

Snake - ISJR'd Dair - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yB_QiRfMoY (Makkun)

Snake - ISJR'd Bair - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY6XdYpZkUM (Vegeta214)

Snake - ISJR'd Bair with platforms! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paIO9BrxKsc (Yagi)

Lucario - All Aerials! - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cb8nhIEvCqU (Jeepy Sol)

Lucario - Rapid Dair ISJR - http://youtube.com/watch?v=zOfW7dFoDOk (Jeepy Sol)

Yoshi - All Aerials! - http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=GUX5cf5VQNY (bigman40)

Peach - Float-ISJR'd Dair - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nhETm7LHAg (Makkun)

Kirby - ISJR'd Side-B - http://youtube.com/watch?v=5qZ6dEe9kX8 (alarmpalm [Youtube])

Bowser - All aerials with Side-B - http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=80U_DTFJpbY (worldjem7)

Mr. G&W - Aerials with platforms - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R67nif4diO0 (DavieBoy)

Pit - ISJR'd Uair - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pm4R0J_ilY (UndrDog)

Pit - ISJR'd Bair - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4RE85TDy5Y (UndrDog)

Pit - All Aerials (Except Dair) - http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Q6wnXLlYQ (worldjem7)

Diddy - All Aerials! - http://youtube.com/watch?v=OROEsKrIwHk (Jeepy Sol)

Ness - Fair/Bair/Side-B - http://youtube.com/watch?v=CKLYcE1-k9I (Earthbound360)

Jigglypuff - All Aerials! - http://youtube.com/watch?v=HIOX9Nnq9No (Jeepy Sol)

Ganondorf - All Aerials? ISJR'd Uair - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmbLWN9NM-8&NR=1 (innocentroads) *Youtube

Link - All Possible Aerials + Some Specials - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNFvgmwpE0 (Ryuto)

Link - Mostly Nair - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gJbNDs_d360 (WoodyWiggins)

Miscellaneous - Ledgehopped SJR - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNqr97h8AAw (ihatemybrother)

Video Requests:
This section is for listing which videos are currently being created for those who have previously requested them. Please do not post requests for those characters which have already been requested. @__@

List of Requests said:

Pit - All Aerials
Kirby - All Aerials
Ike - ANYTHING
Ness - All Aerials
Lucas - All Aerials
Link - All Aerials (Fast fall'd preferably)
Mario - All Aerials
Any - Juggling a human P2 using DI
Cpt. Falcon - All Aerials
Ganondorf - Anything possible
Sheik - All Aerials
Toon Link - ISJR'd Bair
Any - ISJR'd Special
Any - ISJR'd Zair
Falco - All Aerials
Wario - All Aerials
PLEASE feel free to record your own videos and post them in the thread. It would be GREATLY appreciated!

Click to expand...

------

Thanks to everyone who has supported the thread as well as the cause! Special thanks to Ekaru and 3xSwords for helping me get started, as well as everyone else who has contributed to the thread. THANK YOU! <3

Chaotic said:

I would seriously consider crediting yourself, you've done alot of research and testing. This wouldn't have gone anywhere without the feedback you have been giving the community.

Click to expand...

So there we go, credit to myself as well! Thanks Chaotic!

I mentioned this in the other thread, but to the Peach players who are like 'WHAT?!?!?', here's a compensation:

"For all but the dair and uair, if they work, it's strict timings. So...yeah. I think she can psuedo ISJR by double jumping into her float from a SJR, do an aerial, drop it nicely so it lands with the correct timing, ect. So psuedo ISJR is:

Uair: Yes
Nair: Yes
Bair: Yes
Dair: Yes
Fair: Yes"

Just to make life slightly easier for Peach players. >.>

EDIT: Again, nice list.

EDIT2: Or not. Someone test it out. >.> It totally depends on what the game thinks. It resets double jumps, and it should reset the glide, but I'm not sure. *checks some more*

EDIT3: Yep, I think I'm right. It counts you as landing on the ground, so...WOOT

This can be done with specials, it was actually first discovered with them. I.E. Bowser's side-B, Kirby's hammer, Luigi's tornado.

Oh, and good list!

Rhyfelwyr said:

This can be done with specials, it was actually first discovered with them. I.E. Bowser's side-B, Kirby's hammer, Luigi's tornado.

Oh, and good list!

Click to expand...

Thank you. :D

I knew that Bowser's sideB did this, but I thought it was the only one so I dismissed it as an exception.

I will edit the thread accordingly. O:

subscribing

My first reaction to seeing this technique was "wow...somebody should make a list!" Lo and behold, a few hours later, here it is. Excellent job.

I'll have to wait for the specials list to come out. If this is actually possible with all specials too...well, it's already pretty crazy. Maybe this is Brawl's GameBreaker, maybe it isn't, but we'll find out when we see its impact on the tourney scene. True, it's kinda hard, but so was wave dashing when I first learned about it. I already use the QAC infinite as a cornerstone of my Pikachu game and it really makes a difference.

Maybe something even more game-changing will be discovered eventually? I don't know, but here's to hoping.

^It only works with certain specials, sadly enough. Working for aerials and air dodges is awesome, though, and if it works like I think it should (resetting Peach's glide, since SJR counts as touching the ground for character-specific flags, except for recoveries like Sonic's and Snake's), Peach will have some fun messing around. F_F

I posted this in the other thread, but I will post it here as well for the sake of spreading knowledge.

Tetsuro said:

I don't know if this has been brought up at all, but it seems that you can ledge hop this technique as well, at least with Fox.

I was just trying this out in a few different situations, and discovered that Fox's high double jump combined with his Fair (which keeps him afloat briefly when timed right) allows him enough time to pull this off after dropping off a ledge and double jumping.

The only real problem is that it seems like the Fair goes too high, and would go over the head of anybody guarding right at the edge.

It could be useful though, if other characters can pull it off.

Click to expand...

Huh. So Kirby can do this with the hammer. YAY!

I really hope this becomes "that revolutionary AT" for Brawl.

holy niceee. im def subscribing. this could be that thing that brings back hope. to separate nubs and scrubs.

were finally going to see a little more epic in battles. do u suggest doing this in training mode at normal speeds or like 2/3 first

Posting on legendary thread.



Also I'm glad I can do this with my mains.

Crizthakidd said:

holy niceee. im def subscribing. this could be that thing that brings back hope. to separate nubs and scrubs.

were finally going to see a little more epic in battles. do u suggest doing this in training mode at normal speeds or like 2/3 first

Click to expand...

I recommend normal speeds. It's hard to do at first, so by doing it in normal speed, after getting it down, it becomes easier and easier til you get it. This theory has been proven by Charizard uair ISJR. By doing 2/3, you'd have to get the timing down, so... =P You could try 2/3's at first, but I just started in normal speed.

And yes, it'll seperate good players from scrubs... because this actually takes practice... which most scrubs won't bother with because they'll call it 'cheating'. :D Now that I think about it, this is the main technique that requires more than an hour's worth of practice, heck the only one, I'd spend time practicing. o.o;

EDIT: and remember that when done right, there should be no dust clouds from landing. That caused a few hours of confusion this morning. XD

Never mind...

Im curious, do Zairs work with this?

Nocturnal~Dragon said:

Im curious, do Zairs work with this?

Click to expand...

...I never thought of that. I'll check quick.

EDITED: At least Toon Link's Zair appears to work. I'll check Samus and Link now.

Ness's side-B works

Masky said:

Ness's side-B works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxV8qJziWyg

Click to expand...

OOH, I figured it out. Only B-moves that have a landing clouds when done during it to work, so that's why Ness's side-B works. Thanks for informing us. That must be why zairs look like they'd work too.

Zairs work with:

Samus
Toon Link
Lucas

Doesn't work with:

Link (or so it seems, he falls too fast, his zair lasts too long, and he doesn't jump high enough. ;( )

That is, of course, assuming by Zair you meant pressing Z in the air to get an attack with the tether and not something totally different. XP

EDIT: since you gotta trick the game that you're on the ground. Or we just sucked at it after trying for half an hour to an hour. Most likely it's the 'needs to have land clouds when you do it in the air and land during it', though.

This is nice.



I gotta learn how to do this stuff.

Ganondorf:
Nair - No
Fair - No
Dair - Yes?
Bair - Yes
Uair - Yes

Click to expand...

Q.Q

Makkun said:

I also ask that people try and find more practical uses for this technique, as it allows us to have lagless aerials, which is good for combo'ing/juggling.

Click to expand...

how exactly does it allow for lagless aerials? The aerial would have to be FINISHED for you to even do this. You can take the minuta of a second it takes to land, and you'll get a TON of things in return.

1. you'll have your first jump (aka, more mobility.)
2. You aren't restricted to do your aerials at a VERY SPECIFIC HEIGHT (aka, more mobility.)
3. You're able to change your mind and shield/dodge/etc (aka, more mobility.)

Maybe I am COMPLETELY misunderstanding this technique; as far as I can tell, the more must be FINISHED and thus when you would land you would have no lag anyway. You need to have your aerials autocancel to begin with. This does not remove lag on aerials. It's almost more of a "removing landing lag on regular landing" than anything. As far as I can tell, that's entirely not useful. Landing lag is so minimal, no one even notices it.

I hate to be a negative Nancy, but my prediction is this is a novelty. It's too inconsistent and restrictive for competitive play

PS, It's not like I can't do it. It's relatively easy conceptually, just nearly impossible to do more than twice in a row. There are a handful of aerials that have natural timing for it where I could see use (Charizard's U-air anyone?) Even then, I would guess 90 percent of the time you're better of landing. Someone give me a call when we can cancel the lag on aerials that aren't already finished.

Thats what I was thinking also -aether. Its not increasing the speed at which you can do aerials, since there would be no lag after you landed anyway. Perhaps if you needed to follow up a 2nd aerial very quickly, this may be slightly faster since you don't have to touch the ground, but otherwise its nearly useless. Of course, that is if you compare it to L canceling, but I suppose its a interesting technique in its own way.

*Looks at Falco*
:'D

The only way i see this bieng useful is for charcters with short second jumps and aerials with short animations.

Best use for this for most characters is mindgames. That's pretty much how Bowser players were using it with his claw. It's not going to be the wavedashing of Brawl or anything. Kind of cool and might be handy to know but not even close to gamebreaking. Great list though. I need to see what I can do with Lucas with this.

Definitely interesting, though at this point (with a few exceptions, ex. Peach) there doesn't seem to be all that way in the realm of really useful concrete applications. What this needs is more testing and maybe we can find a way of using this for a major advantage.



Here's a thought though, glide attacks aren't covered and in this, and as we all know what happens if you use a glide attack after the last jump. If this could be used to remove landing lag it would be a definite boon.

Probably more important though, is if it can be used with other attacks that result in characters being in the same state, ex. falcon and gannondorf's over-b, or lucario's up-b. I don't think I'll be getting this tech down for a bit so tests in that area would go a long way in determining the true utility of the move.

Ekaru said:

OOH, I figured it out. Only B-moves that have a landing clouds when done during it to work, so that's why Ness's side-B works. Thanks for informing us. That must be why zairs look like they'd work too.

Click to expand...

Ok, then assuming this is correct, do the moves I suggested have landing clouds, I'm not sure.

Crizthakidd said:

holy niceee. im def subscribing. this could be that thing that brings back hope. to separate nubs and scrubs.

Click to expand...

Hey, tech skill doesn't separate out scrubs, being a scrub is all in the attitude (namely a lack of "play to win" attitude).

We really won't know how it will effect metagame without more testing. It didn't really aid Bowser much, but it could greatly enhance others (Kirby aerial hammers are now more viable).

Better clear up its usefulness:

It's useful for pretty much every character except Bowser (he has one with easier timing), whilst in its own ways. Just look in the other thread on this for the uses I came up with.

You can do anything you could normally do out of a double jump with a SJR/ISJR. Which makes it useful. Sometimes a single SJR would be useful, sometimes a whole chain of ISJRs could be useful.

Of course this is immensely insane for Pikachu, but here are three general uses:

- spamming aerials towards an opponent quicker. It's a LOT quicker, and leaves you a lot less open.
- creating a wall of aerials, or also approaching with air dodges (best way to do so)
- since you can use so many aerials with this, once you get the timing down, you can do whatever you want. Land, air dodge, do an aerial when you like, continue on, do a special, use another air jump if you have any left, ect. OR have a lagless landing with the aerial near the latest possible timing for the hitboxes to come out... which can help, believe it or not.

There are character specific uses too... Yoshi's walls of bairs with this (a lot quicker than landing and doing it), spamming uairs with Gannondorf, spamming Snake's dair, and most characters can use this to approach.

This has LOTS more verstality than you guys are thinking of. You can do so much out of a SJR, which is the double jump itself (and for some characters, a reset of their other air jumps). You don't have to continue it even! Heck, with Pikachu, you can QAC, do a SH fair out of the QAC, SJR a fair, SJR a bair, do another QAC, ect.

With MARTH? Ooooh booy... it makes him just silly.

Peach can do it to glide near the ground, double jump, SJR a dair or something, then double jump into a glide, than when the glide is about to end, do a SJR out of it. Not THAT useful, but fun for showing off between stocks with Peach. Otherwise it's not TOO useful with her. XP

But yeah. Considering that you can stop the infinite and just utilize the double jump at anytime, that makes this a LOT more useful. =P There's like no penalty to stopping.

About 'hard to do': it just requires practice. LOTS of it. But the timing isn't as strict as first thought, and is quite possible to master. =P So yeah, quite a lot of uses. Learning to do this can help almost any character's game (sorry Peach and Bowser, and maybe Ike).

Don't get me wrong, sometimes it's better to land, but there are plenty of times when it would be better to keep on doing it (projectile spammers anyone?). For one, if you know what you're doing, you can approach them a little easier with this. I'll leave the rest of the uses to your imagination.

EDIT: Just to clear it up, it's not THAT big, but is still quite useful. It makes juggling at lower percents slightly easier with some characters. BUT, it won't show its true usefulness for MONTHS. It'll take a while til people can actually do this well. >.>

EDIT2: AND It goes without saying that some characters benefit more than others... *glares at Pikachu* F_F

OMFG. Imagine infinite jumping with Marth's fair. This is intense.

Of course, the biggest issue for this is the fact that second jumps tend to be fairly high. I could see this being particularly useful for characters with shorter second jumps.

i'm confused how this is useful

Ekaru said:

OOH, I figured it out. Only B-moves that have a landing clouds when done during it to work, so that's why Ness's side-B works. Thanks for informing us. That must be why zairs look like they'd work too.

Zairs work with:

Samus
Toon Link
Lucas

Doesn't work with:

Link (or so it seems, he falls too fast, his zair lasts too long, and he doesn't jump high enough. ;( )

That is, of course, assuming by Zair you meant pressing Z in the air to get an attack with the tether and not something totally different. XP

EDIT: since you gotta trick the game that you're on the ground. Or we just sucked at it after trying for half an hour to an hour. Most likely it's the 'needs to have land clouds when you do it in the air and land during it', though.

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thx a lot man, i gotta try this now with Samus

memphischains said:

i'm confused how this is useful

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Run with it. Remember that it took several months, in some cases a year, before people really started to see all of the uses for wavedashing. We'll figure out uses for this as we go, if there are any.

Hmmm, I just had some really evil thoughts...

How does the game treat gannondorf's arial over-b when it grabs somebody, because if this is possible with it, I could definitely see some interesting uses. Don't think grabbing with bowsers over-b would work because he does stuff when he hits the ground, but because of the explosion it's a bit difficult to see when gannondorf is freed from the move frames.

So even if you do it the "almost correct way" and do you second jump and get landing clouds, isn't it really the same thing? does it matter that you are getting clouds on every renewed jump or not, or does that increase the lag between moves. The only thing I can think of is that its just not as fast because your char is falling too low?

Dubz said:

So even if you do it the "almost correct way" and do you second jump and get landing clouds, isn't it really the same thing? does it matter that you are getting clouds on every renewed jump or not, or does that increase the lag between moves. The only thing I can think of is that its just not as fast because your char is falling too low?

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there is actual lag because your character is going through thier beginning landing animations and then jumping....

Wow, this is like wavedashing but better. I guess this is what people have been waiting for. Makes me want to give brawl a chance. I vote for a sticky, this could be rather big

This is a tag

Masky said:

Ness's side-B works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxV8qJziWyg

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this doesnt necessarily prove the ness ISJ is possible
if you pay close attention to the time where he gets it, his first 2nd jump is higher than where he ends for his starting on the ISJ, so if every bit of arial time was needed from the first 2nd jump you wouldnt be able to repeat it endlessly

J4pu said:

this doesnt necessarily prove the ness ISJ is possible
if you pay close attention to the time where he gets it, his first 2nd jump is higher than where he ends for his starting on the ISJ, so if every bit of arial time was needed from the first 2nd jump you wouldnt be able to repeat it endlessly

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To add to this... the list and thread is to find attacks that are ISJRable. Every aerial and certain specials can be SJR'd. We're trying to find ones that can be infinitely jumped.