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Ice Climbers Match-Up Thread *Game & Watch*

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
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All further discussion on the IC's match-ups will be handled here.

This Weeks Discussion: Ice Climbers vs. Game & Watch



Overall Match-ups:

5- Heavy Advantage
4- Advantage
3- Even
2- Disadvantage
1- Heavy Disadvantage

Bowser- 5
Captain Falcon- 5
Charizard- 4
Diddy Kong- 2
Donkey Kong- 5
Falco- 2
Fox- 3

Game & Watch- 2

-Bair ***** hard
-Nuff said
Ganondorf- 5
Ike- 4
Ivysaur- 3
Jigglypuff- 3
King Dedede- 4
Kirby- 3
Link- 3
Lucario- 2
Lucas- 3
Luigi- 3
Mario- 4
Marth- 2

Meta Knight- 1

-Ftilt and Dtilt beat out all of your ground attacks.
-All of his aerials will beat out any of yours.
-Don't roll behind him or you'll eat a Dsmash.
-His edge guarding will easily gimp your recovery.
-His speed, mobility, and size will easily allow him to maneuver past your camping setups.
-Blizzard helps stop tornado spam and several of his other approaching methods.
-Uair will beat out all of MK's attacks if he's above you.
-Use squall hammer to change momentum to avoid UpB when he's below you.
Ness- 3
Peach- 3
Pikachu- 2
Pikman & Olimar- 3
Pit- 2
R.O.B.- 2
Samus- 3
Sheik- 3

Snake- 2

-His ground game is better than yours because his Ftilt, Dtilt, and jab will beat out anything you have.
-His air game isn't exactly better than yours but Utilt and Bair will beat out any attack you do in the air.
-As long as he holds a nade you cannot do CG's because they'll explode midway through.
-Desynched ice blocks will hurt his approach since he can't crawl or boost smash and must jump where you can take advantage of the lag from his aerials and punish with a grab.
-Desynched ice blocks will also hurt his camping since it'll interrupt him during the startup of his projectiles, they'll set off nades and mines on contact but not C4, and they can alter the trajectory of missles.
-Blizzard is your only attack that can compete with his range.
-Fair will hit him out of his cypher and spike him.
-In short you can beat him at a distance but you lose up close unless you can get a grab.
Sonic- 3
Squirtle- 3
Toon Link- 2
Wario- 3
Wolf- 3
Yoshi- 5
Zelda- 2
Zero Suit Samus- 3
 

choknater

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I'd give Metaknight a 2/8 and Snake a 3/7. Yeah, bad matchups.

I also think Lucario and Charizard have an advantage against them but that's just me.
 

VirtualVoid

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I'd give Metaknight a 2/8 and Snake a 3/7. Yeah, bad matchups.

I also think Lucario and Charizard have an advantage against them but that's just me.
Metaknight should be 3/7 IMO, Snake isn't that bad because he relies on the fact that even if he gets punished for something laggy it wont matter. With IC punish = Grab.

Charizard is actually an easy matchup. Not only he can be chained like hell by solo popo he also have a really hard time with spammed squall hammers and blizzards because of his size.

Lucario should be 5/5, his lightning quick roll gives some trouble.
 

Binx

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all matches should be a ?/? because there hasn't actually been any time to figure out the best tactics in any match, the metagame has hardly moved so why bother with this now, also these arbitrary numbers mean nothing.

give it like 6 months and then start doing match up guides.
 

Corner-Trap

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I'd give Metaknight a 2/8 and Snake a 3/7. Yeah, bad matchups.

I also think Lucario and Charizard have an advantage against them but that's just me.
I'd say that MK maybe more of a 3/7 but definitely not 2/8, and I think Snake should stay as 4/6. Snake's up close game may completely beat out the IC's but any laggy blocked attack leads to grabs. I could see Lucario being more of a 5/5 and the IC's have a definite advantage over Charizard.

if the metaknight knows what he's doing and I think he's the worst match-up for ICs.
Agreed

Metaknight should be 3/7 IMO, Snake isn't that bad because he relies on the fact that even if he gets punished for something laggy it wont matter. With IC punish = Grab.

Charizard is actually an easy matchup. Not only he can be chained like hell by solo popo he also have a really hard time with spammed squall hammers and blizzards because of his size.

Lucario should be 5/5, his lightning quick roll gives some trouble.
Agreed

all matches should be a ?/? because there hasn't actually been any time to figure out the best tactics in any match, the metagame has hardly moved so why bother with this now, also these arbitrary numbers mean nothing.

give it like 6 months and then start doing match up guides.
Your thinking is very counter productive.
 

VirtualVoid

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all matches should be a ?/? because there hasn't actually been any time to figure out the best tactics in any match, the metagame has hardly moved so why bother with this now, also these arbitrary numbers mean nothing.

give it like 6 months and then start doing match up guides.
The talk in this thread is regarding the current metagame, even if it barely evolved. People here just want to see what other IC players think about matchups and probably discuss tactics to improve matchups that feel bad.
 

VirtualVoid

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I think that Pikachu might be a 3/7 match-up. Dsmash just separates the IC's really well.
Each time you get hit by it spam up on the analog rapidly and you should be out before the final hit connects, ready to forward B / dair / fair / down B the heck out of him.
 

Kyu Puff

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We can discuss how to play the match-ups, but he's correct in saying that the numbers won't be accurate for months.

That said, we can still make educated guesses. I think Charizard can be more difficult than people are saying. His side+B is an aerial smash with good range and speed, that can easily seperate Popo and Nana. He outranges them for the most part. He also has a good recovery and can take a long time to kill. Otherwise, the ICs are decent against him, as he's easy to combo and easy to chain grab. I would say that he's 5/5.

Toon Link definitely has an advantage in this match-up. I say this not from my experience as an Ice Climber player, but rather as a Toon Link player. I never have trouble against the ICs with him.

I would also say Sonic is more like 5/5. He's impossible to shield grab, and his approach is too fast for you to desynch or camp effectively. Maybe 6/4, but certainly not 7/3.

I don't have much experience against G&W, but why is he a bad match-up?
 

Corner-Trap

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Each time you get hit by it spam up on the analog rapidly and you should be out before the final hit connects, ready to forward B / dair / fair / down B the heck out of him.
I read about that in the Pikachu thread but I thought it was useless for the most part since DI'ing out just to be put right back in front of Pikachu didn't seem to advantageous. I'll look more into it.

We can discuss how to play the match-ups, but he's correct in saying that the numbers won't be accurate for months.

That said, we can still make educated guesses. I think Charizard can be more difficult than people are saying. His side+B is an aerial smash with good range and speed, that can easily seperate Popo and Nana. He outranges them for the most part. He also has a good recovery and can take a long time to kill. Otherwise, the ICs are decent against him, as he's easy to combo and easy to chain grab. I would say that he's 5/5.

Toon Link definitely has an advantage in this match-up. I say this not from my experience as an Ice Climber player, but rather as a Toon Link player. I never have trouble against the ICs with him.

I would also say Sonic is more like 5/5. He's impossible to shield grab, and his approach is too fast for you to desynch or camp effectively. Maybe 6/4, but certainly not 7/3.

I don't have much experience against G&W, but why is he a bad match-up?
The numbers are only accurate compared to what we currently know about the game. Even months from now the numbers still won't technically be accurate since they'll constantly change throughout the games life span. I could see moving charizard down to a 6/4 but not a 5/5 because the IC's seem to definitely have an advantage over him. I'm not to sure about TL, I still think he's a 5/5 through my experience since whenever I play against him neither me or my opponent can take a huge lead. I think the IC's do have a definite advantage over Sonic, I just simply don't concentrate on grabbing in this match, most of the IC's attacks simply beat out Sonics. And GW is not a bad match-up for the IC's he just has a slight advantage, Bair so far has simply ***** me.
 

billythegoat

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I feel the g&w should be a 3/7. I have alot of trouble getting grabs off since most of his moves either knock you to far-away to get a grab, or are to fast to punish. That is just my opinion though.
 

Binx

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My point isn't that you should wait six months to assign arbitrary numbers for who has the match advantage, my point is that you should never do it.

I'm perfectly fine with discussing strategies because that is a valid topic, you can state your opinion on the difficulty of a match up but just because you personally lose 80% of the time vs your friend when he is a certain character doesn't mean they are going to be 8/2 for everyone, just you. Also these numbers change based on experience with the game and discovered tactics, the game changes WAY to quickly for these numbers to remain stable especially this early after release, if people absolutely have to rank character difficulty it should never be with a number because in a fighting game you really only need a couple tactics.

Take this incredibly simplified scenario, I play Ice Climbers, my opponent plays Young link, lets say if I grab him he will always die, but if he expects to be grabbed then he will always be able to get away by jumping over me and bairing me in the back of the head, so now I have move "A" Grab and he has his counter "A" short hop bair, so then I up tilt instead or up air or something now I have 2 moves. So if he thinks I will uptilt or up air then his move is now shield grab, the entire match could be fought with these strategies alone with a little camping via standing still since we can't dash dance anymore, shielding, or projectile spamming to break up the monotony, all thats left now is properly predicting your opponent and then countering him.

To summarize: Match ups are based on the difficulty of countering your opponents approach's and defenses, there is NO number for this because if you predict properly and there IS a counter for it then you will win
 

Binx

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My point isn't that you should wait six months to assign arbitrary numbers for who has the match advantage, my point is that you should never do it.

I'm perfectly fine with discussing strategies because that is a valid topic, you can state your opinion on the difficulty of a match up but just because you personally lose 80% of the time vs your friend when he is a certain character doesn't mean they are going to be 8/2 for everyone, just you. Also these numbers change based on experience with the game and discovered tactics, the game changes WAY to quickly for these numbers to remain stable especially this early after release, if people absolutely have to rank character difficulty it should never be with a number because in a fighting game you really only need a couple tactics.

Take this incredibly simplified scenario, I play Ice Climbers, my opponent plays Young link, lets say if I grab him he will always die, but if he expects to be grabbed then he will always be able to get away by jumping over me and bairing me in the back of the head, so now I have move "A" Grab and he has his counter "A" short hop bair, so then I up tilt instead or up air or something now I have 2 moves. So if he thinks I will uptilt or up air then his move is now shield grab, the entire match could be fought with these strategies alone with a little camping via standing still since we can't dash dance anymore, shielding, or projectile spamming to break up the monotony, all thats left now is properly predicting your opponent and then countering him.

To summarize: Match ups are based on the difficulty of countering your opponents approach's and defenses, there is NO number for this because if you predict properly and there IS a counter for it then you will win
 

billythegoat

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As much as it pains me, Binx is absolutly right. Perhaps we should move away from the arbitrary numbers and simply begin coming up with strats againsts each character.
 

Corner-Trap

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All right then, I'll remove the numbers since everyone seems to hate them for whatever reason. I just wanted players to know how the match-ups were through a quick glance. I was only basing the numbers on whats currently known, so obviously they won't be accurate in the future as more things are discovered, just like the strategies people will come up with will be obsolete once new things are discovered. But whatever, I removed them now can people simply post up strats?
 

Corner-Trap

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Nooo, Corner, I liked the numbers. Keep them there, it's just Binx LOL.
I'm just shocked at the feedback I got from it. I would rather have them up there, as long as it doesn't upset anyone. Either way, what I truly want is for people to post up strats. They could just be little tips are fully written articles, just something to get this going.
 

Binx

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Its fine if you wanna keep them as long as the majority of people realize you don't need them for anything. On a side note no one is playing brawl here so I don't know any match ups =D

But yeah 10/0 in favor of ICs because shields are broken and grab = win.
 

billythegoat

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So, I'll take the silence as we don't have a whole lot of ideas on how to beat other character. Well I have a few for fighting against Mr. G+W. I find it is best to fight very defensively. Try to use your desyncs as a way to force him to come to you. If your G+W player is much like mine then he will try using his B-air as his approach for the most part, as it has little lag, can almost destroy a whole shield, and then shield pokes you all with little to almost no lag. try to roll behind him if he tries this. If spaced correctly you will end up far enough behind him soon enough to get your grab off. Now I'm not so sure about this though, but I think that if both climbers are synced and shielding then it puts enough hit stun to his b-air that you can shield grab him during it. Mr. G+W may use his d-air instead, If he is far enough above you may try the up-B, Nana should out prioritize his key. You could also try using u-air although this usually results in both of you being hit, not the best trade off. What I usually end-up doing is simply trying to roll away and mounting and offense from the air with either a SH F-air or SH Blizzard.
Hope this helps a little, and sorry if it doesn't.
 

Binx

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I havn't played much brawl so take this with a hill of salt...

If game and watch fairs just let go of your shield as soon as you can and grab him or wait for him to spot dodge and then grab him and chain throw and he dies, if he dairs same thing, if he bacons then ice block, if he bairs I don't know because I have no idea how the new hitbox works, but if its like melee then you should be able to let down your shield and then grab or forward smash.

If he is above you dont do anything until you see what he does, if he starts DIing away then you can either dash attack or if you think he will fake and DI towards you, then you can up smash, if you think he will fall and airdodge then grab him.
 

billythegoat

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Just some stuff to add about what Binx said, Mr.G+W's new D-air knocks you to far to get your shield grab off, and the new B-air sends out a hit box upon landing which makes a little difficult to punish during what little lag it has; so I doubt you could land a F-smash. Other then that very good stuff Binx :).
 

Speedsk8er

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I havn't played much brawl so take this with a hill of salt...

If game and watch fairs just let go of your shield as soon as you can and grab him or wait for him to spot dodge and then grab him and chain throw and he dies, if he dairs same thing, if he bacons then ice block, if he bairs I don't know because I have no idea how the new hitbox works, but if its like melee then you should be able to let down your shield and then grab or forward smash.

If he is above you dont do anything until you see what he does, if he starts DIing away then you can either dash attack or if you think he will fake and DI towards you, then you can up smash, if you think he will fall and airdodge then grab him.

As a GaW/IC main from both Melee and brawl, I can say that GaW mains aren't gonna Fair approach anymore simply because there's no L-cancelling and Fair has way too much lag. Fair is strictly a KO move now.

Also, I only use Chef to intercept someone in the air.

Bair is pretty much the same in Brawl, honestly. The move always sheild-stabbed in Melee simply because of the multiple hits in the air and then it had a ground hit. Difference is, the individual hits deal more sheild damage and the ground hit hits MUCH harder. Bair is **** near unstoppable now. If I see a GaW approaching me, I tend to SHblizzard as it has more range than any of IC's moves. Also, if you SH->FF->Blizzard as soon as Popo touches the ground, only Nana will Blizzard, allowing Popo to follow-up, depending on their reaction. If the GaW sees the Blizzard coming, I THINK that they can bucket it. Oil Panic is BEAST NOW. No matter WHAT you absorb, it always at least sets up for an edgeguard. I was mistaken when I once said that GaW can bucket Blocks though. He could in Melee but not now.

Belay HURTS even more now and chances are, if the GaW is above you getting juggled, they'll try to Dair back to the ground. Nana is invincible during Belay, if I'm not mistaken. I think Belay will kill GaW at like 70-80%.


Note: I'm bad at this game so take what I say with a grain of salt.


Also, am I wrong for thinking that Jiggz is still an IC counter? Jiggz is one of my mains too and she seems like she still has the advantage.
 

Binx

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Oh, sorry for the misinformation then, thanks Speed

@ billy - I wasn't saying to shield grab I was saying to drop your shield and dash grab, if they do anything but spot dodge it will land and they will die, if you expect a spot dodge wait a second then grab them out of it and they will die. If you are wrong and they hit you, you take what 10% so whats the harm in forcing this guessing game, if they can jump in time to avoid the grab then you are just in another guessing game where you grab them when they land.

Does Fsmash have more priority or range than GnW bair? if so it might be fine to go ahead and use that when you expect a bair approach, or like you said blizzard, and if you do the trick where popo doesnt bliz then you can even grab them out of Nana's or at the least be ready to act before her blizzard ends.

EDIT: A tactic I like to use to camp at close range is to short hop nair and then DI backwards, it keeps a hitbox out and has little lag, just stops people from rushing in at close range pretty well for me, of course this is progressively less useful depending on the range they have, works well on luigi so far though.
 

KRDsonic

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From my experiences, ZSS and Toon Link are both bad matchups for Ice Climbers.

Zero Suit Samus has good range which makes her hard to grab (then again, last time I had an IC vs. ZSS match was less than a week after brawl came out).

I've only beaten one Toon Link with my Ice Climbers before, and that was because my opponent wasn't that good. Toon Link is another one of those characters that is quick and hard to grab, and he doesn't seem to have much trouble juggling you.


After all the IC vs. Ike and IC vs. Sonic matches I've had, I'll say that Ice Climbers work pretty well against those two.

Ike is easy to grab and is easier to chain than most characters and Most of Ice Climber's moves stop Sonic in the middle of whatever he's doing. I've only lost to another sonic user while I was IC once, and I've had that matchup about 20 times so far.


Anyways, I'm just average at this game :p
 

Corner-Trap

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I think the IC's may be one of the few characters who have an advantage over Snake. Why? Because of desynched NeutralB. Ice blocks will instantly detonate any C4, land mine, or nade they touch and they'll constantly interrupt Snake if he goes for Nikita, and if he does get one off the ice blocks will screw with the missiles trajectory. This also damages his approach since he can't crawl under it like he can against most projectiles, and since you're desynched there won't be any openings for him to do a boost smash. This means that he must approach from the air, and his aerials are a bit laggy which leads to free grab setups. Even with all that said I still think this is only a slight advantage because once Snake gets in he completely destroys the IC's. He simply out ranges and out prioritizes them.
 

Ark22

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Sweet, any tactics that help level the playing field against Snake are greatly needed. It seems like half of the people at tournaments use him these days.
 

Atlantis

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sorry if this is a noobly question...

but what do the numbers represent...how do they work

what does like 6/3 or 7/5 mean when next to a character?
 

Binx

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the numbers are out of 10 and are meant to show you how the match up fairs in general, however these numbers are EXTREMELY inaccurate at the moment due to the variety of different playstyles currently being used.

6/4 for example would show ICs winning this match 60% of the time or 6 out of 10 matches with evenly skilled opponents.
 

Corner-Trap

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Binx

These numbers are only accurate based on what we currently know about the game. They'll change as time goes on, just like the strategies people post in this thread will change as time goes on. So to say that the numbers are EXTREMELY inaccurate is wrong.
 

billythegoat

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Against Pit I have found the de-synced ice blocks really destroy him. Most pits can't deal with it when someone out camps them. If he starts to mirror or forward b to deflect the ice blocks then you can simply start short hopping you ice blocks as you move towards him. The blocks should continue to run into each other until you get close enought to get a grab. If instead he trys to approach from the air then you should be able to intercept him and continue to juggle him with u-airs. Hope this helps.
 

sagemoon

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What if that pit player is advanced enough to either wingdash to get around the blocks or just simply glide attack. That will shut down a desynch ice blocks any day. Best shot you're gonna have at pit is to close the gap fast and get a grab combo. Try that one where you charge the up smash, it kills pit at 106%.

I'm a pit player btw so i'm not familiar w/ your terms, but yeah. I'd say if pit knows what hes doing, he can easily just chain bairs on nana and or arrow nana or w/e to kill that ***** and popo is left alone so watch out for that.
 
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