True Pivot in Brawl (explanation added)

phanna · Apr 10, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c

Quick demo of what I'm talking about. Right now I'm trying to guage how much people think this is useful, and if so I'll elaborate on it assuming it's not already known (that is, the effect is the same as pivoting, but the actual technique is different).

Edit: Ok, the elaboration:

This works with any character. As with any move that starts or stops running (even a control-stick side smash or side special), it can result in tripping. It is distinct and different from Melee pivoting, as well as the "Pivot-Grab" described on the Dojo.

First, practice flicking the control stick to a direction so it comes back quickly, resting to neutral. When you do it right for the purposes of this move, your character should move very little in the direction, then be face backwards (free standing). I will refer to this as the small pivot, since you don't go anywhere, but from starting a dash, you turn around in place.

Once you have that down, practice foxtrotting. This is simply hitting the control stick to dash in a direction, for a moment brief enough that you don't continue dashing into a run. Your character should start a dash and then stop. When this foxtrot dash is ending, you can start another foxtrot dash sooner than you could do something else (like shield).

Using this, the value is that from a foxtrot, you can do the small pivot. To dash to to the right, away from your foe, and pivot an attack back toward them, the buttons would be like this:

Quickly hit away on the control stick to foxtrot dash away
Anytime after you could start another foxtrot, you can do the small pivot to start another dash, but instead simply turn around in place and be free standing. I do this by flicking the control stick in the direction I'm dashing, then slightly away (the turnaround) fast and light enough that it's resting back at neutral immediately.
From your free stand, perform any move you desire (jab, neutral B, tilt, etc.)

So to pivot a character's jab, it's hit away, hit away, hit back, tap A. The difference between Brawl pivoting and Melee pivoting, is that instead of changing which way you are dashing (which would be laggy in Brawl), you start another dash in the same direction as before, but simply stop it with a quick turnaround.

True-Pivoting up-smashes and grabs changes their mechanics slightly from doing them normally from runs - that is, a pivot upsmash doesn't slide while you perform the move whereas a running upsmash does, and a true-pivot grab performs your standing grab, rather than the Brawl "pivot-grab" with different range and lag. Things like side-B aren't necessary to pivot, and fsmashes can be more easily pivoted simply by fsmashing after starting another foxtrot - see this video for more: Brawl: "Pivot" Fsmash

Witchking_of_Angmar · Apr 10, 2008

Good thing it's back. Pivoting was a major pillar of my Marth.

Phoenix~Lament · Apr 10, 2008

So how do you do this..?

cwjalex · Apr 10, 2008

I'm curious as well. You say the technique is different, which I tend to believe since I can't pivot as fast as in the video. I normally just dash one way then tilt in the opposite direction to pivot...but I don't think i can do it as fast as in the video

Zantetsu · Apr 10, 2008

In ssb64 we seem to have done this a couple times with our combos.

Like this : http://youtube.com/watch?v=ipi0iygLp6Y

I say its very useful.

0RLY · Apr 10, 2008

I can't watch the video right now, stupid school blocks...

If this is the video of marth performing fsmashes out of a run, then I've seen this before. It is pretty nice though, I wish my main's fsmashes were better.

All you have to do is fox trot the distance you want to move, then press forward/backward on the control stick + forward/backwards on the C-stick. It's more useful with characters with fast fsmashes, ala marth.

Eternal phoenix Fire · Apr 10, 2008

0RLy said:
I can't watch the video right now, stupid school blocks...

If this is the video of marth performing fsmashes out of a run, then I've seen this before. It is pretty nice though, I wish my main's fsmashes were better.

All you have to do is fox trot the distance you want to move, then press forward/backward on the control stick + forward/backwards on the C-stick. It's more useful with characters with fast fsmashes, ala marth.

Sorry, it's not just that. ^_^

But yes phanna, this seems pretty new, and useful as well. Elaborating on the matter would be beneficial. Thanks for sharing this regardless.

cwjalex · Apr 10, 2008

With a little practice I can get it as fast as the video...but it is pretty difficult...I'd like to know an easier way phanna. Also...I don't really use this much because it is only useful if your opponent actually approaches you lol.

ph00tbag · Apr 10, 2008

This looks incredibly useful, IMO. We need better spacing options, and this seems to do that.

derf · Apr 10, 2008

is this just double dash away then a variation on the boost smash out of the 2nd dash? i can do the jab that way but its hard. im at like 1/3 success rate

mugwhump · Apr 10, 2008

I think this is one of those things that was already known by a handful of people but nobody started any threads about it because they thought everybody else already knew because they kept confusing it with the "other pivot," but it's obvious not everybody knew because if it was common knowledge there would be a million threads about it saying "well i searhced 4 it but not rly so look wat i discovered i call it teh DLX run-cancel ololol"

Actually this looks kinda different from the pivot I know about. That's where after dashing, while still in your dash dance frames, you smash the stick in the opposite direction and return it to neutral really fast so that you don't dash the other way, you just stop and face the opposite direction...
I think it's what everyone was talking about in this thread here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142546&highlight=wavedashing

If that's not the same as your pivoting, that means we've got, like, 3 different kinds of pivot, and I won't know what anyone means anymore when they talk about pivoting. D:

fkacyan · Apr 10, 2008

I'd love an elaboration, because as a ZSS player (Direction dsmash), this looks like an extremely useful technique.

Unusual_Rex · Apr 10, 2008

Could someone explain how to do this? Do you just dash turn and attack?

Tristan_win · Apr 10, 2008

Different you say, now I'm interested.

Please tell us how it's different, Phanna.

cwjalex · Apr 10, 2008

Mugwhump, as I'm looking at that video of sheik and marth it looks like whoever created that video edited out the frames where sheik is actually dashing. Look at marth, he doesn't crouch before he jumps...SHENANIGANS!

Jewdo · Apr 10, 2008

THAT is an AT! Epic win, sir.

This new pivot trumps the ground B-Reversal in so many ways. No sliding afterwards with certain characters (Ike, Marth, etc) and you can do ANY move out of it! Is there an air variation too?

<stand-in of me demanding the input sequence here>

Thanks for sharing your discovery. I think I speak for everyone when I say we appreciate this.

FishkeeperTimmay! · Apr 10, 2008

I'm impressed, but completely oblivious on how to DO this?

Anyone care to elaborate?

SynikaL · Apr 10, 2008

If I'm not mistaken, I've made multiple posts attempting to clear this up in the past.

The "Melee" Pivot -- resetting your character to neutral during an Initial Dash animation -- is only available during the first few frames of the ID animation. What it looks like Phanna is doing, is performing Foxtrot and the Melee Pivot in harmony to create an effect similar to the old Pivot but far less versatile.

I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.

Phanna, did you adjust your Control Settings in any way?

-Kimo

Sethlon · Apr 10, 2008

Elaborations, plz

derf · Apr 10, 2008

yea syn you got it right, but you can do multiple initial dashes (the foxtrots i guess although i never knew what that term meant in melee) in the same direction after any distance. you don't have to run the whole initial dash, although phanna does that in the vid i think. so functionally, it's the same as melee's pivot.

heres how it works (sorry dave). do a dash in a direction. then at any subsequent point during your initial dash, do another initial dash in the SAME direction. (like a double tap to run on the GC controller). then immediately after doing the second dash, input your command (i.e. forward smash in the opposite direction). to do jabs you have to reset the controller to just past neutral

now if only we could disable tripping and buffering, eh?

SynikaL · Apr 10, 2008

derf said:
yea syn but you can do multiple initial dashes in the same direction after any distance. you don't have to run the whole initial dash, although phanna does that in the vid i think. so functionally, it's the same as melee's pivot.

heres how it works (sorry dave). do a dash in a direction. then at any subsequent point during your initial dash, do another initial dash in the SAME direction. (like a double tap to run on the GC controller). then immediately after doing the second dash, input your command (i.e. forward smash in the opposite direction). to do jabs you have to reset the controller to just past neutral

now if only we could disable tripping and buffering, eh?

So, is there no necessary input for setting your character to Neutral? All you do is a second ID and immediately input an attack? Is there a Neutral stance involved at all (like, can I decide to simply Pivot and do nothing, allowing my character to reside in Neutral)? I don't have a Wii anymore, I can't test this myself.

-Kimo

derf · Apr 10, 2008

to reset yourself to neutral, just lightly tap the control stick in the opposite direction immediately after foxtrotting. you dont have to do an attack necessarily, you can just stand there like you did in melee

the input sequence goes > > < where the < is very light, sorta like how I pivoted jabs in melee, but i was told i did that incorrectly, so that might not clarify much

SynikaL · Apr 10, 2008

Oh, okay it is what I described in the first post. Thanks.

While it is useful in Brawl (I used to do this myself when I played the game), it is definitely far less versatile then Melee's Pivot. Dexterity will only allow you to Foxtrot so fast to allow you access to this technique at any given whim, but maybe the Brawl community will prove me wrong.

-Kimo

behemoth · Apr 10, 2008

So once you've lightly pressed in the opposite direction, is C-Sticking usable? or only inputting attacks with A?

My sheik's gonna love this. Not sure about my Diddy, though.

derf · Apr 10, 2008

SynikaL said:
Dexterity will only allow you to Foxtrot so fast to allow you access to this technique at any given whim, but maybe the Brawl community will prove me wrong.

this is true. i saw the video and actually got excited about brawl because i imagined replicating dash dancing using this technique. but you can only smash over on the stick multiple times so fast in the same direction :/

SynikaL · Apr 10, 2008

It actually has less to do with how lightly you press the stick and more to do with how you move the stick. The key is to attempt to center the stick as you're moving it back. It's very tricky. Pressing it lightly can aid some people, but that's simply a crutch and you'll likely never get it 100% attempting to perform it in that fashion. If you learn to finesse the stick in the proper fashion, you'll perform it much more reliably.

-Kimo

behemoth · Apr 10, 2008

So Synikal,

Let me get this straight. I need to move the stick back to neutral within a short window of the beginning of the dash animation, then I can input any attack as normal?

Just trying to get clarification, thanks to all the guys trying to clarify, this thread is a breath of fresh air 'round these parts.

SynikaL · Apr 10, 2008

behemoth said:
So Synikal,

Let me get this straight. I need to move the stick back to neutral within a short window of the beginning of the dash animation

Yes. On the second dash.

then I can input any attack as normal?

Well, here's the thing: Brawl's liberal button configuration options will likely flux convention.

As it stands now, If you're using standard configuration, you'll want/have to perform Tilts using the Control Stick/C-Stick combination (in Melee, doing Pivoted F. Tilts is difficult and D/U. Tilts are d@mn near impossible.). Jabs will be performed as normal.

-Kimo

Brookman · Apr 10, 2008

dude...The Dojo made a post about pivoting :laugh:

phanna · Apr 10, 2008

Just got back from work / tutoring, sorry if I seemed like I was being a ****-tease. Derf / Syn / Rohins have described it, which is why I didn't wanna bust out with the vid acting like I made the crap up, I just started using it and thought it was useful enough to share.

And @ Syn: No control modifications on my part

And @ Brookman, I hope you're joking about the "Pivot Grab" technique as seen on the Dojo being Melee pivoting in any sense of the word

Brookman · Apr 10, 2008

I dunno, I didn't pay much attention to the Dojo, but pivoting is pretty simple.

Besides, pivoting requires your character to run, and running is bad.

derf · Apr 10, 2008

phanna said:
Derf / Syn / Rohins have described it, which is why I didn't wanna bust out with the vid acting like I made the crap up, I just started using it and thought it was useful enough to share.

yea dude ive learned like half of what i know about this game from watching your videos...and i didnt know about the "small pivot" until i saw your other video. so yea, i haven't seen this elsewhere

Dark Sonic · Apr 10, 2008

So, does the flick method of pivoting still work?

Also Phanna is too good.

Also, Also What are we going to call the window in which you can dash dance. Are we going to call it the initial dash? (even though that would technically be inaccurate)

Also, Also, Also I noticed you guys talking about tapping the control stick in the same direction. Are you saying that you can interupt an initial dash...with another dash in the same direction? As in, the same tapping speed as dash dancing, except in the same direction instead of opposite ones? Because that could be really usefull (especially for Sonic. It'd be like uber dash dancing, which would lead into stuttersteps which would be insane)

Also, Also, Also, Also did you guys know about stutterstepping? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI 3:29

Najin · Apr 11, 2008

Hmm, that was a bit of a ****-tease for a while, but thanks for the info. This will definitely help my game.

leafgreen386 · Apr 11, 2008

@Sonic Wave/Dark Sonic: Yes, you can interrupt an initial dash animation with another dash in the same direction, although it appears only after a certain point. Or maybe I just don't do it fast enough. I'm not sure.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the flick method," but if I understand what you're asking correctly, then yes.

leafgreen386 · Apr 11, 2008

edit: bah, double post.

Deleted member · Apr 11, 2008

teach me ike's pivot uptilt plz.

phanna · Apr 11, 2008

UmbreonMow said:
teach me ike's pivot uptilt plz.

I updated the first post, but what you'll do is dash away from your foe, then near the end of that foxtrot, flick the control stick in the same direction you first dashed (away from your foe), and then quickly and lightly back so that the control-stick rests at neutral. The result of this is dashing away from your foe, and starting another dash but simply turning around instead of going anywhere. If you dash from the second attempt, or slide and start running left, your timing was off. From there, it's how quickly you can get the attack you want off, some of the tilts can be challenging but there's a pretty good trick.

First, get good at pivoting jabs. After that, pivoting up-tilt or down-tilt is the same except the height you hold the control stick at a different height while you do the pivot. As I show in the video with Marth's up- and down-tilts, I do this by pivoting jabs, except I'm holding the control stick high or low enough that when I tap A, I do the respective tilt instead of jabbing. If you hold it too high or too low, you won't dash, so see the minimum distance from neutral you need to hold it so that A does the tilt, and then practice from there.

Jewdo · Apr 11, 2008

leafgreen386 said:
@Sonic Wave/Dark Sonic: Yes, you can interrupt an initial dash animation with another dash in the same direction, although it appears only after a certain point. Or maybe I just don't do it fast enough. I'm not sure.

Yeah, the dash animation seems to have IASA frames after a fixed number of frames that differs for each character. I tested this by turning my controller 90 degrees and flicking the joystick "down" as quickly as possible (my vertical flicking speed is faster than my horizontal). Did this multiple times in training mode for different characters, and the fixed number seems to differ by character.

Turns out that you'll only be able to pivot after traveling your character's minimum dash distance or at distances (relative to the starting position of your first dash) that are multiples of your minimum Fox-trot step. It's not exactly "at will," but there are small enough "fixed intervals" for most characters' fox-trots to land a True Pivot on an opponent no matter where they are on a platform.

This is still an EXTREMELY useful technique, because (1) no other A-move pivot exists, and (2) once you get used to your the length of your character's fox-trot intervals, you can properly time and space yourself to land True Pivot'd moves "at will." USE THIS TECHNIQUE. IT IS AWESOME.

I'll stick with B-Reversal pivots for pivoting with specials, since they can be done at any time (and in the air). However, don't think for a second that the True Pivot will go un-used, especially when we get good with it. Maybe someone will use this to develop more True Combos too?

SynikaL · Apr 11, 2008

I just find it funny how people never manage to envision a utility for a certain something...

Unless there's a video.

-Syn

True Pivot in Brawl (explanation added)

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