Chicken or the Egg: Some Positive words on OUR Community

Card · Mar 12, 2008

I'm not really one to create a new thread on the General Brawl Discussion forums, because quite frankly my voice is rarely heard. But after having read an entry in JChensor's blog (http://jchensor.blogspot.com/) I couldn't help but share my thoughts on this with the community. J.Chensor, from my understanding, is part of the Staff at EVO Tournaments (www.evo2k.com) which is one of the largest fighting game competitions, held every year. In his "2007 Season Wrap-Up" where he spoke about all the games at EVO, there was an excerpt where he spoke about Smash Bros Melee, among many other things. I suggest everyone who is interested should read the entry at the end of this post.

Anyways, onto what I really want to discuss. Smash Bros. Brawl and the Community.

Let's face it; the Brawl boards are cluttered with mixed reactions towards the game. We have people who are trying to find alternative solutions to heighten gameplay (Lightning Mode, High-Gravity Mode). We have people who are clinging onto any technique which looks remotely deep and calling it advanced. We have people who constantly compare Melee to Brawl, usually resulting in them dubbing Melee superior. Quite frankly, we even have people who outright say "We hate Brawl".

But these comments don't come alone. Along with all of the above comments, comes a very large cloud of doubt. This causes many people of the community, myself included, to doubt the competitive worth of Smash Brawl. People may be doubting whether Brawl will be as technical, deep, or exciting as Melee ever was. A lot of members are afraid to hear that Brawl is shallow in comparison to Melee is. But do not fret, I am here to say that even if our Nightmare's about Smash Brawl are true, it does not matter. It doesn't matter because we have the community to make Brawl one of the most phenomenal competitive game imaginable.

As said by J.Chensor, this could easily be a chicken or the egg type of question:

Does a strong community make a strong game?

or

Does a strong game make a strong community?

JChensor said:
I firmly believe a strong community generates a strong game. And what, exactly, do I mean by a "strong" game? I am referring to how a game is received by the Fighting Game community as a whole, not how well the game is designed and such. Games like Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 are hideously unbalanced and there are lots of really bad game design flaws that do not make it a paragon of how to make Fighting Games. So how come it's so popular at Evo? Why does it generate the most buzz and hype of all the games featured at Evo by far? It's because of its community, which is (not surprisingly) the strongest community of all games at Evo. Even though some may find the drama and hype these players get involved in ludicrous, you cannot deny its affects. All the grudge matches, for example, set up by the players can seem overdone, but no one can argue the amount of hype, energy, and life it breathes into a game that is 7 years old. People get excited by this game, even those who don't play it. And it's because the community takes itself seriously, so it knows how to generate interest while still being a fun community.

This was a quote taken from his blog. I would write something myself, but I do not think I could express myself more clearly than he has in that single paragraph.

In Brawl...

No matter how technically shallow the gameplay may feel...
No matter how slow pace and floaty the game may feel...
No matter how many advance techniques were removed...
No matter how stupid and useless Tripping is of a mechanic...
No matter what negative connotation you can attach towards Brawl...

It does not matter, because as long as we have OUR community behind it, backing it 110%, this game will become competitive. We have seriously one of the largest communities for a video game imaginable, and we all share the same passion for a video game known as Super Smash Bros. We have relationships which have been formed over the internet, that outsiders cannot even begin to understand or appreciate as we do. We show an incredible amount of good sportsmanship and respect towards our fellow Smashers, that other game players cannot even dream about.
and best of all... We LOVE Smash Brothers, and we are loud and proud to shout it.

So cast all your doubts about Brawl aside. As long as we play Brawl with as much ferocity, vigor and pride as we played Melee, there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Brawl will become competitive, and Brawl will be fantastic. And you know what, if you cannot stand playing Brawl, that is completely O.K. You do not have to play Brawl, no one is forcing you to. What makes it o.k that people dislike Brawl is that our thriving community will continue onwards and will never lose pace regardless of any blow we may take.

I just hope that my post will remind everyone of just who we are.

We are a model Fighting game community. Don't you ever forget it.

================================================

The following is an excerpt from J.Chensor's Blog in regards to the Smash Community. I highly suggest you all read it.

And Tekken definitely doesn't have to be bitter anymore. Although for a while they may have felt like the "outsiders" of Evo, that status has definitely been handed over to another game. Now, the most isolated community is the Super Smash Bros. Melee community. They have definitely taken the crown for the community that has every right to be bitter. Their game is never taken seriously by a large amount of Fighting Game players. Their game is always seen as "kiddie." Though they were a part of MLG, they were always relegated as a sideshow. Halo was the main event of MLG, and Smash was just a group of little kids, shunned by the Halo players and thrown into the back corner to play their tournament where they wouldn't disturb Halo. These players never seem to get any respect.

And yet, they are the furthest things from being bitter. I kept saying that the Guilty Gear community needs to learn to be professional and to take themselves seriously. Well, the Smash Bros. community is where they should look for an example. Just as with the Guilty Gear community, The Smash community has a game that some people frown upon. Both communities have players that have a bad stereotype associated with them (Guilty Gear players are often accused as being weird, anime-loving otakus and Smash players are always accused of being 6 year old Pokemon-loving kids or something). As a brand new community added to the Evolution line-up, the Smash Bros. players had every reason to come is very skeptical and behave very poorly.

But instead, they decided to prove why they deserve respect and why they deserve to remain at future Evolution tournaments. The players came out in droves, becoming instantly one of the largest tournaments at Evo in terms of number of contestants. The players showed up for the pools on time and were extremely cooperative with whoever was running the brackets. There wasn't even a big stink made over the decision to turn the pools and semis to best-of-1 game. The players were not happy with the decision, but they played through it. And no one seems to believe the results were "tainted" by that rule change. And on the Finals of Smash Bros., the community was there in full force, cheering their game on. It didn't seem like they were worried if non-Smash players were enjoying it because they were enjoying it too much themselves to care. But because their crowd added a lot of energy to the game, it ended up making it that much more fun for those unfamiliar with Smash to enjoy it as well.

And that's why I like this community so much. They know who they are and they know where they stand. And they are better off for it. There were two main things that surprised me about this community. First of all, they are all very competitive and skilled, but were extremely good natured and friendly to each other. There was a lot of respect among players. Someone joked to me how footage of Smash players involved more handshakes and hugs than any other game.

The other thing that really surprised me about Smash was how deep its history is. From talking to the top 8 players that qualified for the Finals, I was very pleased to discover just how much the community has gone through and grown. It was almost as if Evo had just walked into a movie that was already in progress. There were stories of Ken's early domination and subsequent early retirement... only to return to tournaments for this past Evo. There were stories of East Coast dominance being threatened by an emerging group of top-level West Coast Smash players. There were stories of wanting really badly to prove that certain perceived mid-tier characters could dominate. And there was a lot of stories regarding their history with MLG (both good and bad).

They already have their celebrities. And with them, they could have their upsets and grudges and hugely anticipated matches. They are already a fully established community and, frankly, even if Evo never picked them up or drops them next year, I can't imagine they would lose any momentum. And I took strong notice of that. This community has already built itself up and is already self-sustaining. It's a model Fighting Game community.

The Smash community should be used as a blue print for many of the other budding communities. Whether you are King of the Fighters fans, Melty Blood fans, Arcana Heart fans... hell, even Street Fighter Alpha 3 fans, the key to getting your game into the lime light is building up your community. Everyone likes to say that being included in Evo is what breathes life into games. While I do admit it helps a lot, I still believe that a game thrives solely on its community. It has very little to do with the inclusion into Evo. In fact, inclusion into Evo is usually the result of a strong community or a potential for a strong community.

Houkatori · Mar 12, 2008

I haven't maed poast here a lot, but I wholeheartedly support this message of positive thinking and excitement. Hopefully this sentiment will find its way into the community as a whole.

NeroeXIII · Mar 12, 2008

Wow. I feel the same way, i just cant really word it like you and Jchensor did. You have a good point there. A strong community affects a game. I'd go to more detail but, BRAWL AWAITS! god I love that game..

Radical Dreamer · Mar 12, 2008

If anything, this is a bad sign for Brawl because it has created so much divisiveness in the community. A very significant portion of the community does not like Brawl, has little or no passion for it, and is not proud to consider it part of the Smash Bros. legacy.

purple-tangerine · Mar 12, 2008

*claps* Well said! Even if wavedashing, etc. was taken out, the community will find new techniques. It just takes a while. This isn't "Smash Bros Melee 2", this is Brawl.

Sogeking · Mar 12, 2008

well written and said man. kudos you make an outstanding point and a question which many will ponder

6footninja · Mar 12, 2008

Very very well said. I salute you, good sir. Now, I think I may just put a link to this thread in my sig.

SynikaL · Mar 12, 2008

Card said:
It does not matter, because as long as we have OUR community behind it, backing it 110%, this game will never be shallow.

Nah, the game will always be shallow, but as I've said from Day 1, the game will likely be more competitive than Melee due to popularity (Brawl's accessibility being a large factor there).

-Kimosabae

Frames · Mar 12, 2008

Excellent post Card. As said, it is definitely our love of the game that makes it such a rewarding experience to play. People may say that melee will always be more competitive than brawl, but I think that was because we spent years perfecting and developing the game to an art form. Brawl is new and different now, but I think you're right, that no matter how crappy people may think the game is, if we as a community want to be competitive, it will happen, no matter what.

DrewB008 · Mar 12, 2008

due to the shallowness of the game, players will be less likely to stay in the community for the long run, as the gameplay will be stagnant. everybody loves dynasty warriors for a while, but then they move on because its too simple. we still havent even perfected melee, and its too bad that we probably never will.

Kirby M.D. · Mar 12, 2008

Thank you for this oasis of intelligence in the sea of stupid this board has become. The scene can and will make the game, no matter how "deep" it is. Remember that Smash 64 and Melee (yes even Melee) were seen as party games until we as a community made them something fiercely competitive.

CrazyShaman · Mar 12, 2008

Wonderfully well writen, as always. Same for the blog post, read it all. The sheer momentum of melee and the emergent players making their bid for the top will ensure that Brawl will continue on and maybe even start to get respect as a real fighter.

Card · Mar 12, 2008

SynikaL said:
Nah, the game will always be shallow, but as I've said from Day 1, the game will likely be more competitive than Melee due to popularity (Brawl's accessibility being a large factor there).

Since shallow was a poor choice of words of my part, I'm going to change it since people are reading too literally into the word shallow rather than the point I was trying to make.

Deft · Mar 13, 2008

**** yeah. best post I've ever read here. now I just feel like plain playing the game and not worrying about tiers or whatever.

D.A.N. · Mar 13, 2008

This thread is genius. That's all I can really say.

da K.I.D. · Mar 13, 2008

deft summed up my thoughts on the post... ill be sure to keep all these things in mind.

remember where you came from

M3tr01D · Mar 13, 2008

I liked the review that was given about the melee community, I think it is pretty true. Very nice to hear something like that from those who host Evo and who obviously knows what they say.

Card · Mar 13, 2008

M3tr01D said:
I liked the review that was given about the melee community, I think it is pretty true. Very nice to hear something like that from those who host Evo and who obviously knows what they say.

I think I'll even post his review about the community at the bottom of my original thread.

DRaGZ · Mar 13, 2008

I never really thought of it that way. Cool.

TheMagicalKuja · Mar 13, 2008

AAAmazing post, would read again, >9000/10, etc.

Pyr0 · Mar 13, 2008

Well said.

This thread should be Stickied (at least for a month or so)

Dan2 · Mar 13, 2008

I wholeheartedly support the intent and the message of this thread.

If our community stays as strong as it has been, then Brawl will be a huge success.

Here's to keeping the smash community strong.

Nao Hikari · Mar 13, 2008

Very well said, I have to agree wholeheartedly about everything in that first post

7aeUn · Mar 13, 2008

best thread to have been made amidst all this chaos...haha, good stuff

PukeTShirt · Mar 13, 2008

I'm not here to rain on any parades or anything. I agree with the logic behind this post whole-heartedly and sincerely hope that we can continue to keep this community alive and thriving. The idea that the community MAKES the competitive-ness of the game is an interesting and valid point I'm not going to attempt to refute. I believe the competitive scene with stay with brawl and will remain strong.

Now with that said, let me get this off my chest. The reason the competitive scene stayed with melee and the reason that the competitive scene will stay with brawl are completely different. Melee was a strong competitive scene because the game had an ridiculous amount of hidden depth. The inclusion of AT's gave players something to REALLY practice. That's what kept players in the scene, thats what drove players to become better.

Brawl, on the other hand, will have just as big, if not bigger tournament scenes and the like, but I think the removal of the things that made melee SO deep will cause it to become stagnant. Brawl will have a large scene, and it will be mainly for the fact that WAY more players will play brawl in comparison to melee. More players = bigger community. My point is though, that bigger community /= better community.

Nonetheless, brawl is an amazing game, one which i will be playing for a long, long, long, time. :D

TheTruth07 · Mar 13, 2008

Everyone on the Boards needs to read this post. This is probably the most important post about our community that now seems to be divided over Brawl.

shadydentist · Mar 13, 2008

The interesting thing about melee is that even years after its release, the gameplay was still evolving. People were constantly finding new ways to get better, and although top players still placed well, there was always a constant flux of new players with a little surprise that completely changed the metagame. Furthermore, players constantly found new ways to work around bad matchups, leading to seriously exciting series of tournaments (i.e. the constant back and forth between PC Chris and Ken, which had repercussions for the falco vs. marth matchup throughout the entire communiy.)

I sincerely home something like this can happen for brawl. If, at some point, the game hits a ceiling, and players are no longer improving, then the community will stagnate. Part of this is up to the community, but part is also dependent on the game.

Either way, the next few months are gonna be real exciting.

WarxePB · Mar 13, 2008

Brawl will be competitive. No matter how well-made a physics engine is, it can't be perfect - and those imperfections will become our wavedashing, our L-cancelling, our advanced techniques. We just need the time and manpower to do it.

Card · Mar 13, 2008

PukeTShirt said:
I'm not here to rain on any parades or anything. I agree with the logic behind this post whole-heartedly and sincerely hope that we can continue to keep this community alive and thriving. The idea that the community MAKES the competitive-ness of the game is an interesting and valid point I'm not going to attempt to refute. I believe the competitive scene with stay with brawl and will remain strong.

Now with that said, let me get this off my chest. The reason the competitive scene stayed with melee and the reason that the competitive scene will stay with brawl are completely different. Melee was a strong competitive scene because the game had an ridiculous amount of hidden depth. The inclusion of AT's gave players something to REALLY practice. That's what kept players in the scene, thats what drove players to become better.

Brawl, on the other hand, will have just as big, if not bigger tournament scenes and the like, but I think the removal of the things that made melee SO deep will cause it to become stagnant. Brawl will have a large scene, and it will be mainly for the fact that WAY more players will play brawl in comparison to melee. More players = bigger community. My point is though, that bigger community /= better community.

Nonetheless, brawl is an amazing game, one which i will be playing for a long, long, long, time. :D

Here is where my argument lies.

I said it in my original post, but I'll continue to elaborate.

Think about this question... was it really the "hidden depth" and "advanced techniques" which were responsible for keeping the community thriving and bursting with life during Smash Melee's 7 year era? Do you honestly believe that due to some exploits in pieces of coding, that we continued to play this game for 7 years straight and enjoy it? Could it not have been because of the relationships formed? or the intense hunger for competition? or plain and simply, because of our common love for Smash Bros?

To think that Brawl won't have it's grudge matches, or back-and-forths between pros simply because their may be less advanced techniques is simply ignorant.

The only way for Brawl to become stagnant is if the COMMUNITY lets it get that way!

undeadkirby · Mar 13, 2008

its so refreshing to read an intelligent post. excellent thread

Indignant · Mar 13, 2008

DrewB008 said:
due to the shallowness of the game, players will be less likely to stay in the community for the long run, as the gameplay will be stagnant. everybody loves dynasty warriors for a while, but then they move on because its too simple. we still havent even perfected melee, and its too bad that we probably never will.

Not everyone will move on. It is still too early to call on how deep the gameplay is. Perhaps some AT's are hidden in such a way that our current paradigms are preventing us from discovering them. At this point, I do not believe the play will become stagnant.

Tell me, is wavedashing intuitive? I didn't think so. It seems rather odd that airdodging into the ground at an angle would result in such a motion. We need new players, untainted by Melee paradigms to show us new abilities and abuses to use.

We may never perfect Melee, but we cannot just give up on Brawl before it has the chance to reveal itself! It will thrive by the dexterity of our minds and fingers, the sheer force of our will, and our love of the game!

Unsmarty · Mar 13, 2008

*Claps*

Nothing short of brilliance.

This is something EVERYONE ought to read.

-Linko- · Mar 13, 2008

The first post=Epic WIN.

It should be stickied until the "ZOMFG BRAWL S0XX" flood ceases.

Seison · Mar 13, 2008

Card, your post brought shivers to my spine and a tear to my eye--very well said. The blog entry was enlightening. As everyone before me has been saying, more people need to read it, and realize that melee's advanced techs weren't the sole reason for its popularity in the competitive scene.

BigRick · Mar 13, 2008

Im a regular reader of Chen's blog, and Im really glad that you brought that post here.

This thread is the cure that smashboards really needed.

Cheezball · Mar 13, 2008

Very well done. Although a large portion of our community denies liking Brawl, they know they play it and love it. It would be a significant help to the community if they stopped acting like they hated it. We all know why they do this, they do this because they are trying to grab people's attention. They all know they love it, but they continue to deny it. I really believe this whole community needs to do some thinking about this, and find a way to reject these attention hogs. They really have no point in doing so, they could be playing Brawl or playing outside instead of trying to grab attention. They writhe for attention, and it is very annoying. Great post, bravo sir!

Chaosblade77 · Mar 13, 2008

As said before, the issue currently lies in the massive division among the community. Personally, I think the best way to go about things is for people to simply stop complaining about Brawl and go back to Melee, or just keep their comments to themselves and keep playing Brawl. Treat the games as two completely separate entities.

As long as the community remains as it is, with a large group of Brawl supports and a large group of people who dislike Brawl, the game won't have a chance. This board is nothing like what was described in the article, it's filled with so many arguments and debates about whether Brawl is worth playing that you can't take it seriously at all. Honestly, if I came into SWF today for the first time, I probably wouldn't have even made an account or come back because of the horrid impression I would get from the Brawl boards. Heck, I am already a lot less active because of all of the arguments, the only boards I go in are the tactical discussion and online.

Fletch · Mar 13, 2008

Card said:
Here is where my argument lies.

I said it in my original post, but I'll continue to elaborate.

Think about this question... was it really the "hidden depth" and "advanced techniques" which were responsible for keeping the community thriving and bursting with life during Smash Melee's 7 year era? Do you honestly believe that due to some exploits in pieces of coding, that we continued to play this game for 7 years straight and enjoy it? Could it not have been because of the relationships formed? or the intense hunger for competition? or plain and simply, because of our common love for Smash Bros?

To think that Brawl won't have it's grudge matches, or back-and-forths between pros simply because their may be less advanced techniques is simply ignorant.

The only way for Brawl to become stagnant is if the COMMUNITY lets it get that way!

I don't think that was the entire reason, but it is definitely a big part of it. I juts don't see Brawl maintaining the longevity Melee had, but the community might last by continuing to play Melee at tournaments which are mainly going to be Brawl-centered. Bottom line is that Brawl will most likely not have the lasting appeal that kept Melee fun during its 7 year reign, and I think it will really hurt the community, regardless of how great it has been.

DraginHikari · Mar 14, 2008

Wow... that's all I can begin to say...

For awhile I've begun to have deep doubts about this place and it's community. In the recent couple of weeks I felt rather down when I would come to this forum because of what was constantly being thrown around... heck it wasn't even a issue over the common casual vs. competitive anymore... it's become a fester between the ones that like prefer Brawl and those that prefer Melee... which is kind of sad in some ways.

I would really like to see things get better, not worse.

himynameisruss · Mar 14, 2008

great read, and i believe you and him are exactly right

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