Ganon vs.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 11, 2004

when they're certain matches some chars have the advantage if both players are at the same level, (ex. ganon vs bowser, ganon has the advantage) what i was wondering is how do all chars stack up against ganon? whos has or doesnt have the advantage and by how much? i would try listing the few im sure of if anyone knows any feel free to post.

Advantage (for Ganon)
Bowser..medium/big..
Mewtwo..medium/big..
Pichu..medium/big..
G&W..medium/big..
Yoshi..medium..
Y.Link..medium..
Pikachu..medium..
Kirby..medium..
Ness..medium..
Zelda..medium..
Luigi..medium/small..
DK..medium/small..
Roy..medium/small..
Mario..small..

Null (even)
Ganon

Disadvantage (against Ganon)
Sheik..GOD STOP HER (from jerkin me off :chuckle:

)..
Fox..medium/big..
Falco..medium/big..
Peach..medium..
C.Falcon..medium..
Marth..medium..
Samus..medium..
Ice climbers..medium..
Jigglypuff..medium..
Dr.Mario..medium..
Link..medium/small..

NOTE: if anyone has info on how the undesided chars stand against ganon opinions will be appreciated aswell as opinions on chars that have already been listed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a character specific list, pointing out advantages for each character in the match up. its a bit simple, I'll work on it though. Any suggestions will be great.

Legend
+ = good/advantage
- = bad/disadvantage
? = questionable
/ = Slight
Speed = Attack speed (don't wanna get anyone confused)
Lag = Jump lag and L-cancel lag

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon vs Bowser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Range
+Speed
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Edge guarding
+Lag
+/Air mobility
-/Weight
-Recovery
?Power

Bowser
+Projectile
+/Weight
+/Edge guarding
-/Evasive tactics
-/Range
-Recovery
-Air mobility
-Mobility
-Lag
-Speed
?Power

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Spikes (including reverse uair) can KO Bowser early due to his lack of a vertical recovery.
Stage CounterPicks

Bowser
*Fsmash can catch Ganon trying to sweet spot.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon vs C.Falcon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+/Weight
+/Edge guarding
-/Evasive tactics
-/Lag
-/Speed
-Mobility
-Air mobility
-Recovery

C.Falcon
+Mobility
+Air mobility
+Edge guarding
+Evasive tactics
+Lag
+/Speed
-/Range
-/Weight
-/Power
-Recovery

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganon can chain grab C.Falcon.
*Diagonal up Ftilts often break up C.Falcon's SHFFL'd attacks.
*Reverse Uair... best... edgeguard... EVER!
Stage CounterPicks
Yoshi's Story
Battlefield
Fountain of Dreams

C.Falcon
*C.Falcon can combo Ganon from grabs fairly easily.
*Utilt is actually useful for edge guarding unlike Ganons.
*SHFFLd nairs can suffocate Ganons game.
Stage CounterPicks
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Dreamland

NOTE ON COUNTER STAGES: Ganon seems to do a lot better in situations where he cramps C.Falcons space but that doesn't necessarily reflect on the out come of certain matches. Some of these counter stages may be more based on preference than their countability (um, hope that made sense).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs DK
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Speed
+Edge guarding
+/Power
+/Lag
-/Evasive tactics
-/Air mobility
-/Range
-/Mobility
-/Weight
-Recovery

DK
+Edge guarding
+Range
+/Weight
+/Mobility
+/Evasive tactics
+/Air mobility
-/Power
-/Speed
-/Recovery
-/Lag

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Spikes (including reverse uair) can KO DK early due to his lack of a vertical recovery.
Stage CounterPicks

DK
*Cargo up throw can set up for an easy charged punch.
*Uair can combo Ganon well due to his weight.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Dr.Mario
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Range
+Power
+Weight
-/Air mobility
-/Edge guarding
-/Speed
-/Mobility
-Evasive tactics
-Recovery
-Lag

Dr.Mario
+Projectile
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+/Recovery
+/Speed
+/Air mobility
+/Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganon can use the cape recovery (Dr.Mario recovering) to his advantage with uair and semi-spike.
*Spacing with tilts and bair can keep Dr.Mario at a comfortable distance.
*Using up B to recover faced away from the stage can save you sometimes from the cape.
Stage CounterPicks

Dr.Mario
*His cape can and almost always will kill Ganons recovery.
*Dash attack cant be shield grabbed until Dr.Mario's head is in grabbing range.
*At certain percents dtrow to fair connects.
*Cape = teh ****.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Falco
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
-/Air mobility
-/Mobility
-Speed
-Lag
-Recovery
-Evasive tactics

Falco
+Projectile
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+/Air mobility
+/Mobility
-Power
-Range
-Weight
-Recovery

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Any of Falco's recoveries reverse uaired = free stock.
*Ganon can chain grab Falco.
*Dair/Dsmash/Gerudo dragon are great set ups for airs.
*PSing is your best friend.
Stage CounterPicks
Battlefield
Dream Land
Pokemon Stadium

Falco
*Blasters can destroy Ganons recovery with wizards foot.
*Ganons lack of a sweet spot can get him spiked.
*Shine combos makes Ganon mince meat.
*Utilt can combo Ganon well.
Stage CounterPicks
Final Destination
Corneria
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Fox
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
-/Air mobility
-Mobility
-Evasive tactics
-Speed
-Lag
-Recovery

Fox
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding (can anyone say "shine")
+/Recovery
+/Projectile
+/Air mobility
-Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Firefox is an easy way for Fox to get spiked.
*Ganon can chain grab Fox.
*Dair/Dsmash/Gerudo dragon are great set ups for airs.
Stage CounterPicks
Dream Land
Fountain of Dreams
Kongo Jungle
Battle Field*

Fox
*Ganon can be waveshined with little effort.
*He can also be shined off stage with ease due to his recovery.
*Uair combos can rack up some major damage.
Stage CounterPicks
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Corneria
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs G&W
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Evasive tactics
+/Speed
+/Edge guarding
+/Recovery
+/Lag
-/Mobility
-Air mobility

G&W
+Air mobility
+/Recovery
+/Mobility
+/Disjointed hitbox
-/Projectile
-/Power
-/Speed
+Edge guarding
-/Range
-/Lag
-Weight
-Evasive tactics

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganons uair can destroy G&W recovery.
Stage CounterPicks

G&W
*G&W can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
*Dtilt is great for edge guarding and can kill at rather low percents.
*G&Ws warp possibly has enough space to avoid Ganons uair at the edge.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Ice climbers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Edge guarding
+Range
+Weight
+/Evasive tactics
-/Air mobility
-/Mobility
-/Speed
-/Lag
-Recovery

Ice climbers
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Projectile
+Edge guarding
+/Lag
+/Air mobility
+/Recovery
+/Mobility
+/Disjointed hitbox
+/Range
-/Power
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Nana doesn't recover when spiked unless Popo jumps out to save her.
*When Popo gets Dair'd his upB doesn't save him if he's alone and a good distance from the stage.
*Reverse uair on grounded ICs sends them far due to their low traction.
Stage CounterPicks

Ice climbers
*Ice climbers can chain grab/grab combo Ganon due to his size and weight.
*Ganon cannot successfully grab Ice climbers often without the Nana interrupting.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Jiggypuff
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Mobility
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+/Evasive tactics
-/Speed
-/Edge guarding
-/Lag
-Air mobility
-Recovery

Jigglypuff
+Air mobility
+Recovery
+Edge guarding
+/Lag
+/Evasive tactics
+/Speed
-/Range
-Mobility
-Power
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Properly placed uairs can hit in an angle good for an anti WoP.
*Dtilt and ftilt help maintain space between Jigglypuff and Ganon.
*Pivoting Fsmashes are a great counter for a whiffed pound.
*Pivoting Ftilts can be great for retaliating against shortly retreated bairs.
Stage CounterPicks

Jigglypuff
*WoP can combo Ganon 4-5 hits off the stage.
*Utilt/uair + rest can equal a deadly combo that Ganon isn't immune to (bair to uair is an other dangerous rest set up).
*Jigglypuff can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Kirby
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Edge guarding
+Range
+Weight
-/Mobility
-/Speed
-Evasive tactics-Lag
-Air mobility
-Recovery

Kirby
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Air mobility
+/Evasive tactics
+/Mobility
+/Speed
+/Disjointed hitbox
-/Recovery
-Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Up smash knocks Kirby out of his stone form if both hits land.
*Its retardedly easy for Ganon (or anyone) to shake out of Kirby's back or forward throw.
Stage CounterPicks

Kirby
*Kirby can suck Ganon (...) and walk off the ledge, occasionally receiving cheap KO's.
*Kirby can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Link
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+/Range
+/Weight
+/Mobility
+/Edge guarding
-/Evasive tactics
-/Speed
-/Air mobility
-Recovery
-Lag

Link
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Projectile
+Disjointed hitbox
+/Air mobility
+/Recovery
+/Evasive tactics
-/Speed
-/Mobility
-/Range
-/Weight
-Power

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Reverse uair can cut through Links recovery with no repercussions.
*Ganon can chain grab Link.
Stage CounterPicks

Link
*Boomerangs/arrows/bombs can clog up the playing field
*Utilt can combo Ganon.
*A returning boomerang can knock Link out of a grab.
*Up B can semi spike Ganons recovery far too easily... FAR TOO EASY!
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Luigi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
-/Air mobility
-Speed
-Mobility
-Evasive tactics
-Lag
-Recovery

Luigi
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+/Edge guarding
+/Projectile
+/Air mobility
-Power
-Recovery
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Reverse uair can send Luigi sliding across the stage due to his low traction.
Stage CounterPicks

Luigi
*Luigi can attack and retreat quickly with SH airs to landdash
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Mario
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Range
+Power
+Weight
-/Air mobility
-/Edge guarding
-/Speed
-/Mobility
-Evasive tactics
-Recovery
-Lag

Mario
+Projectile
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Recovery
+/Air mobility
-/Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganon can use the cape recovery (Mario recovering) to his advantage with uair and semi-spike.
*Spacing with tilts and bair can keep Mario at a comfortable distance.
*Using up B to recover faced away from the stage can save you sometimes from the cape.
Stage CounterPicks

Mario
*His cape almost always kills Ganons recovery.
*Uair and utilt combo well against Ganon.
*Dash attack cant be shield grabbed until Mario's head is in grabbing range.
*Cape = teh ****.
*Fair to fsmash works on Ganon at mid percents.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Marth
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Weight
+/Power
+/Edge guarding
-/Range
-/Air mobility
-/Evasive tactics
-Speed
-Lag
-Mobility
-Recovery

Marth
+Disjointed hitbox
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+/Range
+/Recovery
+/Air mobility
-/Power
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Reverse uair can hurt Marth's recovery bad.
*The speed of gerudo dragon and wizards foot can be used to counter a missed fsmash.
*Bair can get through a lot, if not all of Marth's airs
*Gerudo dragon can push Marth far enough to avoid getting shield grabbed.
*Downthrow leads to uair or bair almost always.
Stage CounterPicks
Dream Land
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Battle Field

Marth
*Ganon can get comboed by fairs.
*Fsmash has a huge hitbox that is impenetrable by Ganon's airs or tilts.
*The third hit of dancing dolphin (downB only) knocks Ganon far enough for him to shield grab
Stage CounterPicks
Pokemon Stadium
Final Destination
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Mewtwo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Weight
+/Range
+/Lag
+/Edge guarding
+/Evasive tactics
+/Air mobility
-/Mobility
-/Speed
-/Recovery

Mewtwo
+Evasive tactics
+/Projectile
+/Mobility
+/Speed
+/Edge guarding
+/Recovery
-/Air mobility
-/Lag
-/Range
-Power
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Dtilts set up Mewtwo for airs at low percents.
Stage CounterPicks

Mewtwo
*Fair combos work well on Ganon in low/medium percents.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Ness
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
+/Evasive tactics
-/Mobility
-Air mobility
-Speed
-Lag
-Recovery

Ness
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Air mobility
+/Projectile
+/Mobility
+/Evasive tactics
+/Disjointed hitbox
-/Recovery
-/Range
-Power
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ness' recovery leads him to get edgehogged or retaliated on easily.
Stage CounterPicks

Ness
*SHFF'd fairs and dash attacks can out range some of Ganons attacks with its disjointed hitboxes.
*Ness can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Peach
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
+/Mobility
+/Evasive tactics
-/Air mobility
-Speed
-Lag
-Recovery

Peach
+Projectile
+Recovery
+Air mobility
+Speed
+Lag (float cancel)
+Edge guarding
+/Power
+/Disjointed hitbox
-/Mobility
-/Evasive tactics
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganon can catch Peach's turnips and use them to his advantage.
*SHFF reverse uair + ftilt works well on peach due to her good traction.
*Dair beside a recovering peach can spike her without much risk of the umbrella interrupting you.
Stage CounterPicks
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium

Peach
*Peach can do aerial attacks with turnips in hand.
*Downsmash edge guard disables Ganons ability to edge tech and survive.
*Float canceled dsmash combos work good on Ganon.
*Usmash has priority and makes Peach's head and arms invincible causing some hurt to Ganon's air game.
*Ganons edge tech can get him sucked into multi hits if Peach downsmash.
Stage CounterPicks
Fountain of Dreams
Battle Field
Dream Land
Mute City
Yoshi's Story*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Pichu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Edge guarding
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+/Evasive tactics
-Recovery
-Air mobility
-Speed
-Lag
-Mobility

Pichu
+Recovery
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Air mobility
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+/Disjointed hitbox
-/Projectile
-Range
-Weight
-Self inflicted damage
-Power

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
Stage CounterPicks

Pichu
*Pichu can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Pikachu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Edge guarding
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+/Evasive tactics
-Recovery
-Air mobility
-Speed
-Lag
-Mobility

Pikachu
+Recovery
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Air mobility
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+/Disjointed hitbox
+/Projectile
-/Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
Stage CounterPicks

Pikachu
*Pikachu can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
*Pikachu's jumping speed and nair outprioritize a lot of Ganons airs.
*Uair can kill Ganon at 0%! GIMP KO!
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Roy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Weight
+Edge guarding
+/Range
+/Speed
-/Air mobility
-/Evasive tactics
-/Lag
-Recovery
-Mobility

Roy
+Disjointed hitbox
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Air mobility
+Edge guarding
+/Lag
-/Speed
-/Recovery
-/Range
-Power
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Reverse uair can kill Roy's recovery, though usually it'll be a trade of blows.
*Roys aerials can be CCld and countered if he hits with the tip.
Stage CounterPicks

Roy
*Ganons strength works against him if Roy uses his counter.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Samus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Edge guarding
+/Power
+/Range
-/Speed
-/Weight (Ganon =109/Samus = 110)
-/Mobility
-/Air mobility
-/Evasive tactics
-Recovery
-Lag

Samus
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Recovery
+Projectile
+/Evasive tactics
+/Speed
+/Weight
+/Mobility
+/Air mobility
-/Power
-/Range

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Reverse uair, edge hog is a free stock on Samus once she has used her grapple.
*Gerudo punch can go past Samus' missiles (close shot missiles get you on occasion).
*Downthrow can lead to a lot of airs including double bairs (depending on DI and percent).
*CCing does not exist for Samus in this match up
Stage CounterPicks

Samus
*Missle spamming can destroy Ganons recovery with wizards foot.
*Utilt is an ultimate edgeuarder Vs Ganon.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Sheik
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+/Edge guarding
-Evasive tactics
-Speed
-Lag
-Air mobility
-Mobility
-Recovery

Sheik
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Air mobility
+/Recovery
+/Projectile
-Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganon can chain grab Sheik.
Stage CounterPicks

Sheik
*Sheik can chain grab Ganon (in NTSC).
*Tilt combos work good on Ganon.
*Needles can be used to destroy his recovery.
*Sheik can crouch out of Ganon's grab range.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Yoshi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Edge guarding
+Power
+/Range
+/Weight (Ganon =109/Yoshi = 108)
+/Evasive tactics
-/Lag
-/Speed
-Recovery
-Air mobility
-Mobility

Yoshi
+Lag
+Projectile
+Mobility
+Edge guarding
+Air mobility
+/Evasive tactics
+/Speed
-/Range
-/Weight
-Power
-Recovery

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Any of Ganons airs can neutralize Yoshi's second jump at fairly low percents.
Stage CounterPicks

Yoshi
*DjC can sneak in airs even if Yoshi's hit.
*F/Utilts can combo Ganon.
*Yoshi can occasionally crouch out of Ganons grab range (when he rocks back).
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Y.Link
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
-/Evasive tactics
-/Mobility
-/Speed
-/Air mobility
-/Recovery
-Lag

Y.Link
+Lag
+Projectile
+/Disjointed hitbox
+/Mobility
+/Evasive tactics
+/Speed
+/Edge guarding
+/Air mobility
+/Recovery
-Power
-Range
-Weight

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Reverse uair can cut through Y.Links recovery with no repercussions.
*Ganon can chain grab Y.Link.
Stage CounterPicks

Y.Link
*Boomerangs/arrows/bombs can clog up the playing field
*Utilt can combo Ganon.
*A returning boomerang can knock Y.Link out of a grab.
Stage CounterPicks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon Vs Zelda
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon
+Power
+Weight
+Mobility
+/Range
+/Edge guarding
+/Evasive tactics
-/Speed
-/Lag
-Recovery
-Air mobility

Zelda
+Recovery
+Air mobility
+Edge guarding
+/Evasive tactics
+/Speed
+/Lag
-/Projectile
-/Range
-/Power
-Weight
-Mobility

___________________
Strategical advantages
Ganon
*Ganon can double jump over her fair and proceed with a counter.
Stage CounterPicks

Zelda
*At low percents Zelda can catch Ganon with two fairs in a row.
Stage CounterPicks

TestRider · Nov 12, 2004

Link? Nah no way. Projectiles matter very little (a simple jab stops the boomerang), and Ganon has pretty much the same range as Link on his attacks. He's also faster and a lot more powerful, and Link's weight lets him get ***** by pretty much any combo you could think of. Not too hard to edgeguard either, just hang on the edge and drop off with a backfist if Link comes close. As for Fox, really, it's a close call. I won't recap my reasons for believing so, seeing how I've already written some huge post about it in Shin's topic.

CORY · Nov 12, 2004

you can't jab bombs or arrows and if the boomerang comes in at anything besides mid level, jabbing that back'll be pretty tricky. ganon's also rather large and not the most mobile character, so it's relatively easy for link to run away with projectiles in an attempt to control the flow.

of course, you can kill him in three hits, usually, but that's normal ganon fare; link's mobility and his projectiles put him at about a medium threat, i'd say. and once he gets you in the air and you mess up and use your second jump too soon, you're juggled : (

and i'd put falco right below shiek... stupid shl and spike...

Suretman · Nov 12, 2004

Fox..big..

I don't think that fox has a huge advantage. Remember fox is one of the lightest characters in the game, so one strong hit by ganon can kill very easily under 100%. Ganon can chain grab him and if he hits you with the down air your going to take a lot of damage/die.

Geo · Nov 12, 2004

Shine leads to grabs/up smashes and Fox can up throw to 2+ up airs. Shine combos are brutal on Ganon and he is very easy to shine spike.

If Fox doesn't like the situation he can run away and shoot making Ganon come to him. Fox is one of the biggest G-dorf counters.

TestRider · Nov 12, 2004

you can't jab bombs or arrows and if the boomerang comes in at anything besides mid level, jabbing that back'll be pretty tricky. ganon's also rather large and not the most mobile character, so it's relatively easy for link to run away with projectiles in an attempt to control the flow.

Well yeah, I was just giving an exemple. Obviously you won't always be throwing jabs to stop projectiles. On any tournament-worthy level, it's extremely hard to keep Ganon away with Link's crappy mobility. Young Link does it a lot better, and in that respect would make a better Ganon counter. As for the juggling, that applies to any character anyway. Ganon actually isn't that helpless against it, with such a long range down+A and a very useful down+B move.

And yeah, Falco really IS a *****. With Ganon's laggy jumps and slow mobility, those blaster shots are envoys from the depths of ****.

Shine leads to grabs/up smashes and Fox can up throw to 2+ up airs. Shine combos are brutal on Ganon and he is very easy to shine spike.

If Fox doesn't like the situation he can run away and shoot making Ganon come to him. Fox is one of the biggest G-dorf counters.

Ganon's got just as much brutal stuff he can put Fox through. Double down air, then follow his tech with a fair... ouch. Fox's falling speed also leads to fun with the Gerudo Dragon, and at higher % a simple down throw sets him up for a forward tilt, leading to some edgeguarding.

RyokoYaksa · Nov 12, 2004

You got a bit of double negative trouble there, Tipman.

Peaches that are played well is also a pain in the *** for Ganon.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 13, 2004

i dont think peaches are to much trouble(IMO), you just have to keep them in the air and dont shffl into a up smash. falcos yeah but ganon can combo fastfallers without to much problem and with falcos recovery, his habbit of sh's will get him a punch that he cant recover from and his shb is easy to power sheild. what about yoshi, my bro plays him and does me well. he does his 2nd jump if i try to do any air on him and CC down smash (really nasty).i win most fo the time but he's not so experienced in the game so i really cant compare chars accuratly. oh and as for G&W him being so light (i think he's the lightest) and he has some lag on his ground moves i think its safe to say ganon has the advantage there.

EDIT: i decided to put marth on ganons advantage for the fact that he has a few problems with ganon and the marth's ive played i wasnt stunned by them and had control most of the match. any objections feel free to post.

Titan44 · Nov 14, 2004

Falco ***** Ganon for free. It's one of those match-ups that seems unwinnable at high levels (I win against Jotun's Falco like 1/6th of the time at best XD). Sheik is bad, but not THAT bad. Those other characters can be pretty annoying, but the match-ups aren't too bad IMO.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 15, 2004

i dont know about ****** for free, one good hit from ganon and falco wont be able to recover for nothing, he can do some damage but if hit he looses. fox has it up on him due to speed, upair and smash, and a way better recovery.

Titan44 · Nov 15, 2004

Sure, Ganon can kill Falco off pretty easily around 70%. Doesn't quite compare to the fact that if he EVER gets you off the stage, you're probably going to die. 100%. 50%. 25%. It doesn't matter. At the highest levels, I don't think I've ever seen Ganon win this fight.

Fox is good vs. Ganon too, but he can't take advantages of Ganon's weaknesses (lack of mobility and not-so-great recovery) quite like Falco IMO. The bird's SHB and spike scare me more than anything else in the game when I'm playing Ganon (so much that I'm trying to pick up another character JUST for that match-up).

Thomas Tipman · Nov 15, 2004

to be honest with you i never really played a great falco ive played good ones that can do some damage and its always been a fair that ends them, so someone could be god with falco and one hit will end them due to a bad recover. this friday i should play alot of good players and be able to put things into prespective better. i'll list the chars i found to be rather easy and the few that were more than a hassle and hopfully could get some chars on the list.

(ahhh, i look back in time and laugh at my ignorance)

JesusFreak · Nov 16, 2004

Trust me, Falco is Ganon's hardest matchup. I'm one of the Falcos Titan plays against.

soberfox · Nov 16, 2004

Yes, Falco vs Ganon is truly awful. I honestly can't even think of a way for Ganon to ever gain an advantage, much less actually win a game.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 16, 2004

i downloaded a vid off dc++ with ganon vs falco and the falco got 2 stocked by ganon out of a 5 stock match. it seemed both players knew their char well and both knew the same techs (it wasnt pro vs noob). most of falcos falls were being knocked just slightly far enough so he couldnt comback and ganons falls were bairs, a spike, and an edge hog. not saying this match is the staple of all ganon vs falco matches but it shows that falco has to be real carefull not to get hit to often or ganon will get a ko.

JesusFreak · Nov 16, 2004

Was it Eddie vs Dope? Cuz if so that doesn't count. Eddie's Ganon is not normal.

Titan44 · Nov 16, 2004

Dope's Falco isn't exactly normal either. He 3 stocked Eddie in that 3rd vid......

Thomas Tipman · Nov 17, 2004

Aarosmashguy(Ganondorf) vs Element of Fire(Falco) 2 (Battlefield).wmv, thats the file name.

EDIT: i got a vid on ganon vs dk and holy god that was pretty insane, didnt realize dk could do ganon like that. i thought dk had the fast fallers on lockdown but dang ganon got combo'ed. i just saw on vid does anyone know where dk stands against ganon?

EDIT2:yeah i played some good players and found some things out; Mario and Dr.Mario can work you on the inside and Falco isnt as crazy as you guys claim (easy till he gets on the inside then only a nuetral a or sheild grab can slow him down). i know some my think i played a crap falco or something but i'll play more and find more out. also if anyone has vids were ganon gets owned by falco give me the filename so i can search DC++.

EDIT3(dang):i finally got to see that eddie vs dope and eddies ganon sucks. he does more mistakes than a girl on prom night. though that falco is really good to bad he didnt have a good ganon to go against.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 20, 2004

[Tried to delete.]

TestRider · Nov 20, 2004

...funny how you just destroyed any and all credibility you could have had on this board by stating Eddie's Ganon sucks. Of course, I suppose you are much, much better, and could have placed high in several important tournaments just like he did, had you bothered participating.

JesusFreak · Nov 20, 2004

XD Are you coming to moast? or are you just following the sig fad? If you are coming I'll be sure to tell you just how much of a moron you are for what you just said about Eddie. He's the best Ganon in the US. One of the only people ever to beat Ken in a money match. The list goes on. Basically, you're dumb.

ktxbaiggnore :laugh:

Morkexil · Nov 21, 2004

I'd have to disagree about Gannondorf having a slight advantage over Marth. Two of Gannondorf's strengths(range and priority) are both taken away against Marth's tip, which has slightly better range and has equal or better priority than the majority of dorf's moves. Plus, Marth easily beats Gannondorf(and basically everyone else too) with his grab range, with the exception of fair or ftilt Gannon is always a quick shield away from getting thrown. The Gannondorf would have to be extremely good with mind games to penetrate Marth's sword and avoid getting grabbed even half the time. Then theres the issue of edgegaurding, where Marth pans dorf as bad as Falco, assuming the Marth is decent at dair spikes, even if not, f smash or dtilt owns Gannon's recovery on most situations.

About that 2 stocking of a Falco by Gannondorf. Aarosmashguy is quite insane and cruel and unusual with dorf and isnt "normal" either, my Fox got 4 stocked against him(course this was back in July when I wasnt as good as I am now). Element of Fire is good too and getting better I hear, but Aaro always gets either 1st or 2nd in the tournys around my area so take that in consideration in how representative the battle was of falco vs dorf. The match woulda been closer though on Final Dest hehe.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 21, 2004

first off the 2 vids with eddie in them, ive seen eddie get owned twice, so im not gonna be like "HOLY ****ING GEE-HOP JIMMENY, HE GOT OWNED HE MUST BE AWSOME!!" from the angy up roar there must be some vids were he does some nasty techs so i'll keep a look out but ive just seen him loose so im not gonna think he's amazing by loosing twice espeacially when falco freaking ripped him with no probs, how can i even begin to think he's decent if is lost barely taking one stock. so he beat ken in a moneymatch, ken musta felt bad for the guy and let him win to get a few bucks for grocerys cause ive just seen him get spanked.

JesusFreak: yeah im going to moast, i will be using my main megaman....*******.

Morkexil:yeah i agree with you its a close one to call cause in different point of the game either one can have the advantage. im gonna play a great marth player tomorrow so it shall be interesting but im gonna take him off the advantage list cause i really cant tell. i do think that roy has it up on ganon though.

Titan44 · Nov 21, 2004

Now now, guys. No need for the hostilities

I mean, the guy IS right in a sense. I dug up those matches in hopes of seeing Eddie use something that would make the match a bit easier, but he got ***** as bad as I do vs. Falco. I'd be underwhelmed too if that was my first time seeing him play (assuming I didn't know the match-up). But he did 3 stock Dope in one of those vids. It's just not something that you're gonna see happen often.

You (Tipman) mentioned something earlier about Shield-grabbing to slow Falco down. The thing you have to understand is that at Dope's level, you aren't gonna see too many missed L-cancels. This SEVERELY limits your opportunities to do anything offensive. I played a guy with maaaad technical skill like that, and I literally could't even touch him. You can't rely on shield grabbing to get by at higher levels, so you're gonna have to work very hard for your damage in that match-up.

Regarding Marth vs. Ganon, it's definitely not a good match-up IMO, but it's not nearly as bad as it is for most characters. Roy is harder to call, since he lacks Marth range. But on the other hand, his counters are BRUTAL on a high-power character like Ganon.....

Linkzrath · Nov 21, 2004

> Ganon absolutely beats the snot out of Mewtwo. M2 is very light for his size, making him a big and easy target for Ganon.

> Ganon and Jiggs may be even. While Jigglypuff is light, Ganon is a big fat target for a good ol' Rest attack, and Jiggs can duck some of Ganon's attacks.

> Zelda gets clobbered by Ganon, but ownage is simply a down+B away...

Thomas Tipman · Nov 21, 2004

yeah i agree with the mewtwo and zelda but ive had some problems with jiggs. its kinda like marth, they're point in a mach were one can have the advantage and it can chage almost instantly.

CaliburChamp · Nov 22, 2004

Eddie doesnt seem to have as many mind games as P.C. Chris or Rafa's ganon. Im not trying to put him down or anything, he is a great Ganon player, but I have seen better.

And so what if he beat Kens Marth? Ganon has the advantage there. Just a few good edgeguard moves and Marth is the loser.

Cloud Strife X · Nov 22, 2004

IMO eddies ganon is alright I saw it and played him a few rounds in TG....but who cares....

First of all I think Rafa's ganon waaay over eddies but the thing is I play rafa on a constant and he is a friend...so maybe it is just feelings talking for me....

Anyhow....as for your list tipman..alot of things are questionable....why don't you try playing me before you go off making assumptions of things...from what I hear you don't live to far away....and if you think that ganon ***** falco's easily...you got a thing or 2 to learn.....

On a side not...ganons worst matchup every is VS jiggly...

He is about even with mostly everyone else...but jiggs ***** ganon alive.....like a big steak....without cheese....no tomatoes..

A little onion rings...

Bleh I am gonna go to burger king now....oh yea and tipman if you wanna play I will be at zp mostly this week owning people in fighting games and FPS

hope to see u there..if i not there I am spending quality time with my new femy....but if anything PM me and I will give you my cell # I am always up to a game...

CaliburChamp · Nov 22, 2004

Yeah, I hope to play you soon too Tipman, your Ganondorf isnt bad at all. And I was gonna mention that Ganon has the disadvantage to Jigs. SSB 64 Kirby ownz Ganondorf left and right, fortunately for you Ganon players he's not a threat like he used to be.

Linkzrath: Almost anything beats a Mewtwo. I would say that Ganondorf and Zelda is an even match, cause Zelda has good range on her kicks, plus Ganon is a big target, therefore he is much easier to get sweetspotted by a foot or f-smash. But Ganon's U-air ownz her cause she cant guard **** anything underneath her. So thats why I call it even and even.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 22, 2004

Cloud: jigglypuff is tuff ****, my friend (calibur saw him) plays jiggly and **** is that a scary match and i do get mines. but since me, him, and one more friend of mine play each other and barely get to play anyone else often we have tight games so its difficult for me to make decisions based on 2 peoples playing thats why i created the taopic and asked people what they thought. im assuming you play nice falco from your post so i'll definetly play you and hopfully learn some valuable lessons.

Calibur: yeah it should be fun, i gotta see if i could get a ride again cause my sis who drove me there had her car break down on the way home so i gotta kiss some *** to see if she could hook it up, and if so i'll probably bring like 3-4 freinds along.

TestRider · Nov 22, 2004

Ganon versus Jiggly isn't THAT hard. He can easily outrange and outprioritize her in the air, and at low damage he can down throw her, follow her DI and hit her with a down air. She also dies very easily from pretty much any of his aerial attacks. All she's really got on him is the up tilt+Rest combo.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 22, 2004

Originally posted by Titan44
You (Tipman) mentioned something earlier about Shield-grabbing to slow Falco down. The thing you have to understand is that at Dope's level, you aren't gonna see too many missed L-cancels.

though this might be a really late response it doesnt matter if falco misses or nails the l-cancel, you can still sheild grab him even though you may not have the luxuary to wait before the grab.

TestRider · Nov 22, 2004

No, you cannot shield grab him if he L-cancels. He'll simply shine you out of your grab.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 22, 2004

Originally posted by TestRider
No, you cannot shield grab him if he L-cancels. He'll simply shine you out of your grab.

Ganons grab gets him before he can recover from any aerial, if you're still not sure you can look up falcos and ganons frame data and compare.

TestRider · Nov 22, 2004

Hum look...a shine is faster than a grab. By L-cancelling Falco's down air, you cancel the lag and shine Ganon right as he stops shielding to start the grab.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 23, 2004

Originally posted by TestRider
Hum look...a shine is faster than a grab. By L-cancelling Falco's down air, you cancel the lag and shine Ganon right as he stops shielding to start the grab.

Falco air frames
-------------------------------------
N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
-------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 39
Hit: 8-9, 11-14
IASA: 36
Auto cancel: <7 26>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9
-------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 39
Hit: 4-19
IASA: 38
Auto cancel: <3 23>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
-------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 5-24
Auto cancel: <4 30>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9
-------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 59
Hit: 6-8, 1-18, 24-26, 33-35, 43-45
IASA: 53
Auto cancel: <5 49>
Landlag: 22
Lcanceled: 11
--------------------------------------

Ganon grab frame
-------------------------------------
Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8
-------------------------------------

So if falco were to land and you'd grab as soon as he did you would grab him cause he has no air that can l-cancel under 7 frames and most sheild grabs (the ones i usually do) start before the opponent lands rather than when he lands so grabbing him isnt to difficult as long as your aware of his fast fall.

CaliburChamp · Nov 23, 2004

Jigglypuff has hidden hitboxes and her air mobility gets her in and out of Ganons Rane fast enough. And if that wasnt enough, she has the rollout, and Ganon has a bad sidestep. Jigglypuffs Pound has more speed and about the same range as Ganon, but its faster so Jigs will hit first before ganons fair or bair hit. But they would trade hits alot. Jigs can also crouch under Ganons grabs, punches and smashes. And Ganon can get killed quite easily by upthrow and rest.

...Told

Thomas Tipman · Nov 23, 2004

Originally posted by CaliburChamp
And if that wasnt enough, she has the rollout, and Ganon has a bad sidestep.

i dont think the rollout is one of her good moves (on ganon). anytime i see a rollout coming i laugh in my mind cause its easy to grab or attack her as she gets close or my favorite is to wait by the ledge, dodge and let her hit me. so funny how she rolls to her death.

CaliburChamp · Nov 23, 2004

Rollout is underestimated. If it doesnt hit all the time it will wear down or break your shield if the puff play knows how to turn with it good enough, and maybe Ganon can avoid it on certain levels, but he is eventually bound to get hit by it on FD. And I doubt a good Jig player will fall for the "near the ledge tactic" they can always turn around while your landing, killing Ganon at about 60% or higher.

Thomas Tipman · Nov 23, 2004

the near the ledge tactic is not jumping over jiggs as she passes that bair her, i was talking about when she hits you while she's next to the ledge, she bounces off you and falls off. ganon can avoid rollout by grabbing or attack and if he jumps he could just double jump and before he hits the ground foward b. rollout is good but i dont use it often unless im in the air or on a team using dual jiggs, that is fun.

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