Match-Up Discussion #31! Link

Steel · Oct 6, 2008

Link

Go ^_^

feardragon64 · Oct 6, 2008

I hate that bloody hookshot.

It's like samus's zair, only 10 times not as bad....still annoying though.

Marth doesn't have a range advantage here, but he sure as hell has a speed advantage. Use that to your advantage and if you don't go for the gimp....go for the bloody gimp. He has one of the worst recoveries in the game....

Pierce7d · Oct 6, 2008

90-10 Marth. Deal with mediocre projectiles. Knock him off the stage, gimp him with an Fair or something.

90-10 Marth.

Steel · Oct 6, 2008

Probably about 65:35 or 60:40 imo, will add more later

e__ · Oct 6, 2008

GIMP!!

Other than projectiles, you have EVERY advantage over him. Range, speed, power. His recovery is horrible, predictable, and extremely easy to gimp. He has plenty of room for mistakes that you can punish with dancing blade. The arrows are easy to spot unless jump canceled, really the trouble is getting into range and out of projectile range, something that his own boomerang helps you to accomplish.

70-30

Pierce7d · Oct 6, 2008

How? Marth has TWO death comboes on Link. Well, one pseudo combo.

Fthrow to tipper fsmash to fair or bair. OR fthrow to Dair.

Zankoku · Oct 6, 2008

50 billion - negative 49 billion 999 million 999 thousand 990 Marth. Well it's closer to 65 - 35. Link's recovery and falling speed are so terrible that he can't afford to air-dodge an edgeguard. He also moves slow. All he's got is the ability to throw a lot of projectiles on bigger stages where he's got the time to pull them out in the first place.

HeroMystic · Oct 6, 2008

80:20 Link. Projectile spam > Marth's tip.

Kidding.

60:40 Marth. I'll add more after I deal with other nuisances.

e__ · Oct 6, 2008

@: Pierce

Yes, but 90-10 is only for match ups that deal with one grab=death combos, like DDD on Bowser or Marth on Ness. Despite being the second worst character, Marth doesn't own him that bad. By those stats Metaknight would win 100-0, something I greatly doubt would happen with 2 even skilled people. I think Steel's underestimating Link's advantages over Marth though. 70-30 with a 5 point curve in either direction, but most likely towards Marth

Steel · Oct 6, 2008

I gave it to him that close because he has good sword range.

NintenJoe · Oct 6, 2008

Link's Advantages: Marth is tall, therefore can be easily hit with the clawshot/Zair. Marth has no projectiles, and Link can easily projectile spam on large stages. Marth is very vulnerable to Link's edgeguarding techniques, especially Gale Guarding and Zair Edgeguarding. Link can "chaingrab" Marth moderately easily.

Marth's Advantages: Marth has more priority than Link on both the ground and in the air. Marth can gimp Link easily. (Who can't? :laugh:

) Marth can combo Link moderately easily. Dancing Blade can easily combo Link at most percentages.

Overall, at least 60:40 or 65:35 in Marth's favor. I know I listed more advantages for Link, but "Marth has priority over Link on the ground and in the air" is just too good of an advantage. I don't think I would go much higher than 70:30. Marth doesn't own Link that badly...

feardragon64 · Oct 6, 2008

Steel2nd said:
I gave it to him that close because he has good sword range.

This, power attacks, zair, and his crappy projectiles. But still, it's enough to bump him up to 65:35 imo. He DOES outrange Marth(with his sword), even if he's too slow to really make use of it. His zair CAN stop aerial approaches, even if it's not nearly as good as Samus', his crappy projectiles DO damage so....stupid as they are they CAN make a difference in the match up. They're crappy yes, but you can't ignore the fact that he has three of them and a move that stops aerial approaches sometimes, AND a decent range with decent knockback.

Borderline 65:35. I was tempted to call it 70:30, but he's also relatively heavy.

e__ · Oct 6, 2008

So what, 67:33 Marth?

Emblem Lord · Oct 6, 2008

I call it as 60/40, but this is one of the few match-ups that I haven't analyzed as much as the others. So 60/40 is just what my gut tells me.

grandmaster192 · Oct 6, 2008

I HATE this match-up.

I do think Marth has an obvious advantage(6:4 probably) but he has a big sword and it pisses me off, because he can actually hit me.

Luckily Marth can run circles around him.

4Serial · Oct 6, 2008

60:40 sounds really good

I don't have very much Marth experience, so questions plz. If Marth is above them and being juggled, what can he do? From what I see, he can airdodge, d-air, and probably try floating away for an f-air or b-air. If that's the case, Link can probably juggle him fairly easily to rack up damage. Not to say that it's easy for Link to do that, just an observation.
Marth can pretty much gimp Link through aggressive edgeguarding. I wouldn't say he has many guaranteed combos. His side-b is fast and annoying to deal with, and is really good out of shield. So is his up+b out of shield. Link can try to space himself against Marth's shield and pressure him with z-airs. up close, if Marth hasn't grabbed or side-b or hit him away, Link can pressure his shield with jab cancels, and combo out of jab cancels. Marth's recovery is mediocre in this game compared to many others, and he's fairly easy to z-air edgeguard. Link's recovery is complete garbage though. I'm jealous of your character's recovery, among many others.

Steel · Oct 6, 2008

Marth is weak from below, yes. He can stall with side b to mix it up though.

feardragon64 · Oct 6, 2008

Steel2nd said:
Marth is weak from below, yes. He can stall with side b to mix it up though.

Also, he CAN counter when coming back down. Honestly, Link doesn't exactly have the fastest moves so it can be considered a viable option.

And past projectile spam, I don't see link to have much edge-guarding capabilities. I might be completely wrong though. And projectiles are projectiles, they do hamper recovery.

Dan_Fumaster · Oct 7, 2008

I'd say 65:35. Abusing any projectiles or the hook-shot should allow the Marth to easily time attacks in the openings. Most people do not use the gale boomerang effectively, and often blow themselves up with bombs. But then again, there are those who can use them quite skillfully.

However, Link is still easily edge-guarded and Marth's close range advantage slams into Link's slower speed.

HeroMystic · Oct 7, 2008

Now that I'm bored, might as well put my analysis here.

Link's biggest advantage here is his wall of projectiles. Nevermind that they're rather crappy, but the large quantity of them is quite a nice touch. Bombs, boomerang, and the Bow coupled with double draw and triple draw will allow for useful damage racking when Marth is spaced away from Link.

Up close and personal, Marth wrecks Link. Nevermind Dancing Blade, but the fact that Link can't reliably jab cancel due to Marth's powerful Up-B is annoying. Link can do some decent air comboing though, but it certainly isn't enough to topple Marth's zoning and range.

Link will spend the majority of time keeping Marth spaced, while Marth just continously tries to wreck him up close.

As for Off-stage, it's a whole new picture. Link can edgeguard Marth just as easily as Marth can edgeguard Link (Not statistically speaking, but bear with me here). Link can Z-air **** and galeguard, and both are quite effective against Marth since his recovery is predictable and too precise. Marth can easily WOP Link off the stage and call it an easy stock kill, but if Marth just knocks Link off the stage, then Link can fight back with the boomerang, and his recovery is helped with a bomb in hand. It saves him many times when being gimped.

The ratio is hard to stick with due to all of the ATs and large variety Link has, but since we're going by facts, I'll keep mindgames out of this.

With all that mind, I'll go for 60:40, maybe 65:35, but I prefer 60:40 simply because Marth can be gimped easier than usual.

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster · Oct 7, 2008

Another thing, Link can be slow if you make him that way. With the quickest fast-fall and one of the best pivot boosts/craq walks in the game, Link surprisingly is not that slow, and that helps his spacing game even more along with his projectiles(in which case are not crappy if used intelligently). Just wanted to point that out.

Dan_Fumaster · Oct 7, 2008

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster said:
Another thing, Link can be slow if you make him that way. With the quickest fast-fall and one of the best pivot boosts/craq walks in the game, Link surprisingly is not that slow, and that helps his spacing game even more along with his projectiles(in which case are not crappy if used intelligently). Just wanted to point that out.

But when you are in his face after getting past his projectiles, Marth's speed advantage is very noticeable. Link players will need to concentrate heavily on spacing and dodging and cannot take advantage of many of Marth's aerials because they don't have much lag. Sure, Link can rack up the damage, but finishing is much harder for him because his strong attacks require a bit of time and have punishable lag. I can see Link's relying on vertical k.o.'s (uair, occasional dair) because ftilt and fsmash are slow in comparison to Marth's ground attacks.

∫unk · Oct 7, 2008

how many matchups do we have left ><

bludhoundz · Oct 7, 2008

Three.

There are 35 characters.

Subtract Marth (we're not going to discuss that matchup).

That's 34.

We've done 31.

34-31 = 3

Zankoku · Oct 7, 2008

Why not discuss the Marth matchup? I have indisputable evidence that it's 72:28 Marth's favor over Marth.

Steel · Oct 7, 2008

Ankoku said:
Why not discuss the Marth matchup? I have indisputable evidence that it's 72:28 Marth's favor over Marth.

Yeah but Marth can DS out of Marth's dthrow > fsmash combo, so it's probably more like 68.2:31.8 Marth.

:034: · Oct 7, 2008

Up+B out of shield rocks against Marth though.

More like 67.7892-32.2108

Metro Knight · Oct 7, 2008

The F-Airs are really annoying. Even though I murder my friends who play Marth, Marth probably has the advantage since he can gimp the **** out of Link with F-airs. I think versus a good Link it might be a lot closer, but for the most part is probably like 70-30 or 60-40 in favor of Marth. Poor poor Link. At least it isn't Marth from Melee!

feardragon64 · Oct 7, 2008

Marth has a 0-death combo on marth. It goes counter, utilt, dash attack

crazn137 · Oct 7, 2008

Are we going to discuss Pokemon Trainer in one thread, or make a different thread for all three pokemon?

e__ · Oct 7, 2008

It's still really tough for Marth to win though, feardragon. It's pretty hard to get around Marth's fair, and his dtilt has range that rivals Marths.

Remzi · Oct 7, 2008

60:40 Marth

You win this matchup but not by much. His sword range rivals yours, his projectiles are extremely annoying, he has an easy time edgehogging you, and the ****ing zair.

Then again Marth's sword still has a larger hitbox, is faster, has better recovery, and can gimp the **** out of him.

ZHMT · Oct 7, 2008

60:40 Marth. Mainly because mixing Link's horrible recovery mixed with Marths excellent edgeguarding doesnt mix well for Link.

Link has a good jab combo that can lead to a grab to tech chase, plus he has all the projectiles he needs to defend. Pretty straight forward Discussion imo. Btw, never get hit by Link's Dair lol. Link may use this to edgeguard and it beats your up b. Be careful of that. Otherwise, everything else was covered.

Swordplay · Oct 7, 2008

60/40 marth or 65/35

I main both of these and know a great deal about this match up.

Links zair is really useful. If there was one thing TL had against marth it was his zair.

Here is a quote from the marth vs TL thread

Santi said:
Just watch out for zair cause that's all we have against Marth's superior range.

By the way, Links zair is better.

this matchup is one that is strange for marth. Marth is usually a great zoning character but a good link can out zone marth. What marth wants to do is punish laggy attacks and his slow speed. It's Link so there will be a lot of them to punish.

Question:
Are Links projectiles an issues?

Answer:
No, Learn to power shield noob.

Question:
How does marth win?

Answer:
GIMP

Question:
Links recovery sux so he can't mess up mine right or edge guard right?

Answer:
Wrong. Watch out for zair edge guard. he can instantly regain invincibility frames on the edge like TL SAMUS and LUCAS. Good Links don't use projectiles that often to edge guard but may use them to rack damage from a recovering opponent.

Also, watch out for flying Dair's when you recover.....Link may not be able to gimp you but moves like dair will kill you.

Remzi · Oct 7, 2008

You cant just call powershielding the solution for every projectile problem. The fact is, his projectiles may not be as good as some others, but they're **** annoying and can rack up damage.

Swordplay · Oct 7, 2008

True.

Link can do some nice things like arrow cancels and his boomerang can flop you. If you don't tech. Prepare to loose a life from a jab lock > Spin attack.

Other than than. Catch bombs with fair. Items are easier to catch in this game.

Projectiles are annoying but marth has the speed to get around.

The only problem marth has in this matchup is spacing. Links projectiles give him a long range advantage and zair gives him a spacing advantage. Links sword rivals the range of marths.

Once marth realizes he cannot win in a spacing game like usual, he will change his strategy to rush down. eave the projectiles and play very aggressively. Link can't keep up with some of his more laggy moves and slow speed.

It's not a gimmie fight but once marth realizes how to win he should win.

This is a match where you have to play a different style than usual but Link is just such a bad character that you should have no problems changing the way you play on the spot.

Get in Links face and make him move around. Move him to the edges and attempt to get him off stage. Most link will crap their pants.

If you don't understand the match up though and don't understand how to play a link your going to get beat. If you try to outspace link you may loose and deserved a face palm.

Shaya · Oct 7, 2008

Ughh, don't have a Marth v Marth matchup thread.

I don't exactly want to reveal how I pretty much 3 stock every single Marth I vs in dittos bar one.

Pierce7d · Oct 7, 2008

Wow, I'm sorry. 60-40? What? Doesn't anyone else realize that fthrow -> to tipper fsmash -> fair then pivot utilt if link is still onstage -> bair then fair to hit him regardless of airdodge fair is a death combo on Link (I'm pretty sure of this). Also, I believe the fthrow to dair combo works on Link as well.

Projectiles are a non-issue, as jumping over a charging arrow is easy, and ALL of the projectiles are high telegraphed and shield-able. Link's grab is super unreliable, and this is one of the main tools needed against Marth.

Marth still outranges link, except projectiles maybe fsmash, which is not even close to safe.

This match-up is at least 70-30. If Link has a 60-40 vs Marth, he may as well have on the whole cast, since Marth is one of his worst match-ups. And then he might as well be mid-tier.

Swordplay · Oct 8, 2008

At Pierce....

If Link wasn't such a crap character he might actually be a counter to marth.

Marth does not outrange Link. Not when Link is spamming zair in your face. Good luck trying to grab.
They also have near equal range is sword. Marth might have a slight edge but its not noticeable.

No. Marth is not one of Links worst match ups. Those would include Meta Falco which are like 20:80 against Link.

You may think your marth with your throw combo owns but getting into grab range with Links sword and many Auto cancel areals including the zair will prove much more of a hassle. Your best trying to rush in and punish at sword range.

Also there are better/easier combo's than that against Link. Here is one I can do.-----This is from AIB

Ace de Smashbrudda said:
And Marth can also "death combo" Link form 0%, with the chaingrab to uptilt, reverse up tilt to ken combo aka the Cactuar combo lol

Once Link knows you can do this he will try to outspace you. Things like that won't work in the mid percents. with DI and such.

IC has a 0-death on everybody but that doesn't mean they have 9-1 match ups

60/40 is appropriate or even 65/35 at best.

I'm sure you want to test it now to reinforce your point............good luck with that.

You won't find many good Links. They are the rarest in the game because Link takes a lot of tech skill on top of being a bad character.

In fact. Almost all of the "well known" pro Links are in the West or midwest not east. Thus I am 90% positive that you Pierce have never played a good Link because you live in the east unless you go to national tournaments.

Wifi is not recommended but we may have to resort to it anyway. Marth is Trash online and Link is even worse because lag hinders his many AT inputs.

If you want Pierce. I'll give you names of really good Links as well as there locations so you can challenge.

Metro Knight · Oct 8, 2008

Pierce7d said:
Wow, I'm sorry. 60-40? What? Doesn't anyone else realize that fthrow -> to tipper fsmash -> fair then pivot utilt if link is still onstage -> bair then fair to hit him regardless of airdodge fair is a death combo on Link (I'm pretty sure of this). Also, I believe the fthrow to dair combo works on Link as well.

Projectiles are a non-issue, as jumping over a charging arrow is easy, and ALL of the projectiles are high telegraphed and shield-able. Link's grab is super unreliable, and this is one of the main tools needed against Marth.

Marth still outranges link, except projectiles maybe fsmash, which is not even close to safe.

This match-up is at least 70-30. If Link has a 60-40 vs Marth, he may as well have on the whole cast, since Marth is one of his worst match-ups. And then he might as well be mid-tier.

Well, that only works at low percentages. Also, Marth's throw is pretty freaking bad. You literally have to be right on them to get it off. But yea, I had this happen before a tournament, it I ended up losing a stock b/c of it, but I only let it happen once. So, it is bad and you can probably own a lot of Link's that way, but versus a Link who knows Marth well, I doubt that combo will happen a lot. Of course Sword Dance to Fairs is still really good. If you mix up the sword dance with shield breaker, you can really punish Link. I think this is a hard match up for Link, until he gets used to Marth, than it is around 60-40 in Marth's favor. Certainly harder match ups for Link out there.

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