Jiggs
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Match-Up Discussion #30! Jiggs
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
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feardragon64
Smash Champion
If you get rested during this match-up, learn to space
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
OMG... Idon't know how it is possible to hit with that. I was playing with my friend BIG O Saturday and we were testing out how to hit with that, and I was touching him and it didn't work. Then we got bored and started actually playing...
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Lol, IDK why but I always expect an easy win, and have much more trouble than expected.
Sure you outrange everything she has, but she does a great job of interfering with your spacing. Plus rollout is annoying xD
Still, you can kill her early, she can't do the same. And you outrange virtually every option she has.
I'll hold off on a score because I'm inexperienced on this one, and fail at it.
Sure you outrange everything she has, but she does a great job of interfering with your spacing. Plus rollout is annoying xD
Still, you can kill her early, she can't do the same. And you outrange virtually every option she has.
I'll hold off on a score because I'm inexperienced on this one, and fail at it.
K, so I actually have a not bad Jiggs and know this match up pretty well.
In theory, Marth could basically use jab the entire match and keep Jiggs out. HOWEVER, Jiggs is ranked #1 in aerial mobility. She can weave in and out to try and get inside your sword.
Her fair and bair are quick, though with not so good range and not so good priority. Expect these to be the main approaches. Her pound will probably be used more in this match up than others. It lasts forever, has good range and great priority. This is one of her best methods to get inside.
If she lands a rest, it will be either after a missed up b or a drill > rest. You probably shouldn't be getting hit by the drill in the first place though, and if you do you can just smash DI out. Rest isn't too good in this game but can kill Marth around 80% i believe.
Her rollout is good in this game, if there is a platform just hop on it. Don't try to counter it, she can roll right past your counter attack and then hit you in the back. Your shield breaker can out prioritize it i believe and dtilt clashes with it.
But those are all jiggs' options pretty much, Marth basically dominates the fight because of his range and can kill her very early. Don't underestimate her though or you will probably get owned due to a lack of match up experience.
Probably 70:30.
In theory, Marth could basically use jab the entire match and keep Jiggs out. HOWEVER, Jiggs is ranked #1 in aerial mobility. She can weave in and out to try and get inside your sword.
Her fair and bair are quick, though with not so good range and not so good priority. Expect these to be the main approaches. Her pound will probably be used more in this match up than others. It lasts forever, has good range and great priority. This is one of her best methods to get inside.
If she lands a rest, it will be either after a missed up b or a drill > rest. You probably shouldn't be getting hit by the drill in the first place though, and if you do you can just smash DI out. Rest isn't too good in this game but can kill Marth around 80% i believe.
Her rollout is good in this game, if there is a platform just hop on it. Don't try to counter it, she can roll right past your counter attack and then hit you in the back. Your shield breaker can out prioritize it i believe and dtilt clashes with it.
But those are all jiggs' options pretty much, Marth basically dominates the fight because of his range and can kill her very early. Don't underestimate her though or you will probably get owned due to a lack of match up experience.
Probably 70:30.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Eh, I'd call it 75:25 at least. If not because Marth completely out-ranges and out prioritizes jiggs and that jiggs is incredibly light(and aerial mobility or not, she can't weave between Marth's aerials with attacks if they're spaced properly), then the extra 5 points go for the hilarious death that results from a broken shield and the complete demoralization from it =]
75:25 is a lot. That's like instant ****. 70:30 is reasonable. 70:30 has been the protocol for most characters that cannot subdue Marth's range game.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I agree with everything but the last 4 lines of what you wrote. Its more like 60-40 55-45. Amd although Jigglypuff doesn't have that many options, she can use them in a myriad of ways... And its true, if you under-estimate her, its a Jigglypuff advantage. Otherwise, Marth does have a slight to moderate advantage.
WHAT? lol
This match is no where NEAR even.
Please explain how a character with less tools, range, priority, weight and power etc can compete with a character who clearly outclasses her in every aspect of this game except aerial mobility?
This match is no where NEAR even.
Please explain how a character with less tools, range, priority, weight and power etc can compete with a character who clearly outclasses her in every aspect of this game except aerial mobility?
feardragon64
Smash Champion
I agree on that, but jiggs is much lighter than people we've marked in 70:30 match-ups. The 70:30 match-ups were kirby and luigi. Kirby had more options than jiggs and was even a bit heavier. Luigi is definitely heavier than Marth, has fireballs(even if they are pretty useless usually), and honestly could most likely travel a similar distance jiggs could with his recovery tactics. Kirby has more kill moves and more reliable ways for racking up damage than jiggs as well. I personally think jiggs has it worse off than our typical 70:30 match-ups. Her largest advantages are her multiple jumps and aerial mobility. Aerial mobility means she can(with quite a degree of difficulty) weave through Marth's ground game(or most of it).
I would stand by 75:25 Marth. I think any decent Marth can wipe the floor off jiggly. Maybe steel can correct me since it's rare to come across a good jiggs. Actually, maybe THAT'S jigg's best advantage....
and lol at illinialex
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Except for pound and Jigglypuff can juggle marth fairly well. A good uair beats his dair and pound and bair weaving can beat a Marth fairly well. Rather defenseless if a ways off the stage, he can be edgeguarded. And also, rollout is rather effective against an unsuspecting Marth although will lose if it is anticipated slightly.
LOL. Not even close. The Marth matchup is only a slight to moderate advantage to Marth, not a strong advantage. I know as both a Jigglypuff and Marth main (meaning in this matchup I am probably the least biased). Game and Watch, Falco and Olimar are the only ones that exceed 70-30 or are 70-30. Falco is around 70-30, Olimar 80-20, and G&W 90-10.
Okay then, but tell me...
how do you get into Marth's range?
You can't juggle if you cannot find an opening, this is true for anyone.
I'm a former Jiggs main, and let me say this. Marth is one of her harder matchups. Jiggs cn punish lag easily with mobility and quick attacks, so don't UpB out of shield too much. Puff will probably bait you. Don't fall for it. If you play smart, 60:40 Marth. (I'd say 65, but you get gimped easily)
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Right, the opening is pound. The trick is to weave pound well and I know you can't bair unless you get an opening. The trick is to bait him and in between attacks bair and bait him with pound sometimes. Its a much poundier matchup but if Jigglypuff is stuck on the ground next to Marth, she's a goner at high percentages.
If you hit a pound, then either bair chain them from there, land and grab at low percentages (fake an attack with a jump first so they can't attack when they land), or force them up and sneak in the side or rising pound. Its a little bit mindgamey but not that much, the trick is just to exploit the weak points of Marth's air game.
Nibbity
Smash Journeyman
....
This is more than I expected. I don't know, Counter her rollout?
Think about it. I really agree with Steel on a lot of these things. How many good tools will she use to get inside your spacing? How about fast enough attacks to punish quickly and adjust to what will happen next?
This is more than I expected. I don't know, Counter her rollout?
Think about it. I really agree with Steel on a lot of these things. How many good tools will she use to get inside your spacing? How about fast enough attacks to punish quickly and adjust to what will happen next?
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Actually, this is the trick, a well timed rollout doesn't get counter. If you turn around when he uses counter, you go through the counter unharmed and hit them the way back as long as they don't shield (which generally is a perfect shield from my experience). Also, if you go at full speed it doesn't get hit. Another trick is to roll back before going towards them, so they counter and you punish them during the ending lag.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Again, I should probably not post in this matchup as i lack any experience in it and fail at it. That being said there will be some bias, but I'll speak my mind anyways:
To my knowledge Jiggly's fair is pretty close to Marth's in range (not disjointed though...) and it shouldn't be too hard to punish marth with a fair, pound, or something else of that nature to get him into the air. And once a jiggs gets me into the air I'm usually ****ed for a while because Marth can't do crap with someone under him. Just my two cents, take it how you like.
To my knowledge Jiggly's fair is pretty close to Marth's in range (not disjointed though...) and it shouldn't be too hard to punish marth with a fair, pound, or something else of that nature to get him into the air. And once a jiggs gets me into the air I'm usually ****ed for a while because Marth can't do crap with someone under him. Just my two cents, take it how you like.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Firstly, did you just say Marth's match-up vs g&w was 90:10? All possible credibility lost.
Second, pound still doesn't have enough reach, even if it does have priority. The pound situation is easily solved by utilizing aerial attacks to out-prioritize. Besides, you can't seriously expect to drop the matchup by 10 to 15 points by saying you'll spam one move for approach repeatedly. ONE move for every single approach? Predictable much?
Second, pound still doesn't have enough reach, even if it does have priority. The pound situation is easily solved by utilizing aerial attacks to out-prioritize. Besides, you can't seriously expect to drop the matchup by 10 to 15 points by saying you'll spam one move for approach repeatedly. ONE move for every single approach? Predictable much?
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Jiggs vs G&W is what he meant fear
WTF? Pound is REALLY unsafe. That gets shielded and Jiggs either gets shield grabbed or up b'd. If you think that will be Jiggs' main approach then she will get ***** hard.
Also while Jiggs is good at edgeguarding, Marth can avoid it by just using a fair to hit her back out.
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
Jiggs doesn't have to outrange Marth to edgeguard him though.
We all know where dolphin slash is going. Everyone does. If Jiggs just floats into the trajectory and throws out an aerial (as long as she isn't in range of your invincibility frames), it should be problematic.
Either way Marth has a significant advantage. I'd say 65:35
We all know where dolphin slash is going. Everyone does. If Jiggs just floats into the trajectory and throws out an aerial (as long as she isn't in range of your invincibility frames), it should be problematic.
Either way Marth has a significant advantage. I'd say 65:35
Nibbity
Smash Journeyman
lol well even so, counter isn't the only option. Assuming it's a good jiggly puff who knows the matchup, marth could just as easily jump backwards and secure an edge, PS, or even try to roll dodge.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Whoa, are you guys serious? Pound is one of the FEW things Jiggs has on Marth. The hitbox on it is ********, has a ******** trajectory, has underestimated range, and is best used in the air. You will not shield grab Jiggs, and it has increased shield reduction, making Marth more open to getting shield poked.
Also, Jigglypuff's DACUS is pretty good. It's tricky to see coming, and it's often that trick Jiggs used to get in.
If Jiggs starts charging Rollout, run to stand near an edge. You have amazing options from there, and Jiggs could be seriously disadvantaged if she doesn't hit you.
Marth beats Jiggs, but you gotta have good DI, and you also must pay attention. Poke a lot, Dancing Blade much less. Marth loses Dancing Blade Jiggs can smash DI out of it.
Your best friend in this match-up will be jab. It won't keep leave you open, and it'll set Jiggs where you want her, while coming out quickly, and protecting Marth pretty well. Utilt is an AWESOME finishing option here.
70-30 Marth IMO.
Also, Jigglypuff's DACUS is pretty good. It's tricky to see coming, and it's often that trick Jiggs used to get in.
If Jiggs starts charging Rollout, run to stand near an edge. You have amazing options from there, and Jiggs could be seriously disadvantaged if she doesn't hit you.
Marth beats Jiggs, but you gotta have good DI, and you also must pay attention. Poke a lot, Dancing Blade much less. Marth loses Dancing Blade Jiggs can smash DI out of it.
Your best friend in this match-up will be jab. It won't keep leave you open, and it'll set Jiggs where you want her, while coming out quickly, and protecting Marth pretty well. Utilt is an AWESOME finishing option here.
70-30 Marth IMO.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
No way in hell is it close to 60-40, 70-30 imo.
Aerial mobility is great and all but its all she has. Pound's lasting hitbox only works if the person doesn't know, but if a Jiggz uses that multiple times in a match, the Marth should learn and attack accordingly. Unless they're stupid. Rollout is stupid. You should NOT be trying to counter that ****. The best course of action against Rollout is to just distance yourself, and just WAIT. The jiggs will eventually release and when she does just shield, and when she touches your shield reverse DS ftw.
Now, this is a match where nair is very useful. Why? Well if you are playing a good Jiggz then they won't be on the ground, and in the air where the nair will hit w/o FF'ing. Nair ***** in this matchup, but fair walls are still good. With nair you give less of an opening where she could potentially weave in and hit you, which is more evident in a SH fair.
Anyway if she decides to resort to a ground game. You can **** with just dtilt. She has no answer to a dtilt on the ground in terms of attack. Which is why she will always be in the air, which sets up for walls of death. Anyway, she can still gimp you pretty good which is why this matchup isn't beyond 70-30. Once you get hit of stage into a fair WoP after a second jump, its like an auto stock loss. So she can pull of the gimp, however getting Marth into a situation like that will take a while and Jiggz will probably lose a stock or two before she reaches that point. Thus 70-30.
Aerial mobility is great and all but its all she has. Pound's lasting hitbox only works if the person doesn't know, but if a Jiggz uses that multiple times in a match, the Marth should learn and attack accordingly. Unless they're stupid. Rollout is stupid. You should NOT be trying to counter that ****. The best course of action against Rollout is to just distance yourself, and just WAIT. The jiggs will eventually release and when she does just shield, and when she touches your shield reverse DS ftw.
Now, this is a match where nair is very useful. Why? Well if you are playing a good Jiggz then they won't be on the ground, and in the air where the nair will hit w/o FF'ing. Nair ***** in this matchup, but fair walls are still good. With nair you give less of an opening where she could potentially weave in and hit you, which is more evident in a SH fair.
Anyway if she decides to resort to a ground game. You can **** with just dtilt. She has no answer to a dtilt on the ground in terms of attack. Which is why she will always be in the air, which sets up for walls of death. Anyway, she can still gimp you pretty good which is why this matchup isn't beyond 70-30. Once you get hit of stage into a fair WoP after a second jump, its like an auto stock loss. So she can pull of the gimp, however getting Marth into a situation like that will take a while and Jiggz will probably lose a stock or two before she reaches that point. Thus 70-30.
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
70:30 sounds just about right also you and jab his aerial approaches
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Its closer than you think, 70-30 means a Marth will beat a Jiggs 70 times outta 100. Its much more like 60 times. And pound does have a ******** hitbox, but you don't attack a shield with it, you weave in and out with bairs and pounds. It works really well and really kills Marth. The problem is avoiding his amazing ground game, which is why 60-40.
Well Marth probably will beat Jiggs 70 times out of 100 in theory. He's just a much better character with much better tools. Your argument for pound could be used for almost every character, which means Jiggs would be at least mid-high tier. But she just isn't a very good character.
Marth has a freaking sword.
Marth has a freaking sword.
Just poke Jigglypuff until she pops.
70:30
70:30
∫unk
Smash Master
actually not true jiggz will wait until you do the f-air then come and hit you out while you're lagging
honestly against defensive/roll-dodge ***** ones this is 6:4 but against others its 7:3 (I've played 5-6 different ones in tourney for some reason I get matched up against jiggs a lot)
e__
Smash Ace
^I believe that if two players of equal skill and equal knowledge in the matchup played each other, Marth would win 70 out of every 100 times, or 7 out of 10, especially if Jiggly focuses on weaving in and out with bairs and pounds. A Marth player has multiple approaches to Jiggs, while you've only listed that one approach. Are you telling me that the Marth can't just walk on the ground and jab, FTilt or Utilt when the Jiggly gets close?
And I think Marth can weave in and out with fairs and nairs to attack Jiggly better than Jiggly can Marth, while Marth has a much better ground game. Right now you're saying that Jiggly has pound, which is easily punishable, rollout, and bair. To counter this, Marth has an assortment of aerials, specifically nair and fair, dancing blade, ground speed, amazing overall priority, quick attack speed, a much superior ground game, shield pressure, and, going based on your "weaving with bair and pound" strategy, an easy kill move (up b from shield) and probably an easy disrupter with counter. Yes, I know Jiggly doesn't pressure shield that much, but that doesn't mean that the marth user won't use it if they see jiggly approaching with an aerial.
edit: err, that was to illinialex
And I think Marth can weave in and out with fairs and nairs to attack Jiggly better than Jiggly can Marth, while Marth has a much better ground game. Right now you're saying that Jiggly has pound, which is easily punishable, rollout, and bair. To counter this, Marth has an assortment of aerials, specifically nair and fair, dancing blade, ground speed, amazing overall priority, quick attack speed, a much superior ground game, shield pressure, and, going based on your "weaving with bair and pound" strategy, an easy kill move (up b from shield) and probably an easy disrupter with counter. Yes, I know Jiggly doesn't pressure shield that much, but that doesn't mean that the marth user won't use it if they see jiggly approaching with an aerial.
edit: err, that was to illinialex
feel free to keep discussing the match up, but we've pretty much covered everything and I am going to move on.
Tyser
Smash Champion
Marth has an advantage 70:30. Why? Jiggz isnt very good. That is all.
EDIT: Steel, your sig is hot and I feel like a pedo now for saying that.
EDIT: Steel, your sig is hot and I feel like a pedo now for saying that.
Megavitamins
Smash Champion
Up-smash out of shield is ridiculous in this match up, I've tested it a while ago and I think unless Jiggs spaces her airels perfectly, up-smash out of shield will pretty much always hit her, and because she is so light this can kill at nice percentages. Btw roll out is gay
My sig is top tier, yes.
Glick
Smash Lord
If you cant beat a jigglypuff you suck. Or thats just a really good jigglypuff.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Once a match hits 65/35 you really won't be winning that match at all.
In theory you would win 35 out of 100 games, but realistically you would be lucky to win 10 or close to that number. Once you hit that range it signifies that your character really doesn't have the tools to go toe to toe with that other character in the match-up.
In theory you would win 35 out of 100 games, but realistically you would be lucky to win 10 or close to that number. Once you hit that range it signifies that your character really doesn't have the tools to go toe to toe with that other character in the match-up.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
No, it couldn't. Against a Snake pound will fall to his U-tilt and amazing other moves, and against a good spacing G&W, you stand no chance, but against a Marth its very effective. And what I mean by pounding is not just using pound, but bairing once for the approach, if they go to the air, pound, if the stay on the ground bair then pound (unless they are holding shield in which case bair). If you hit a pound, juggle the Marth with bairs. Also, when the Marth is approaching you, fair him. Just space it so there is a low risk of shieldgrab and if you sourspot it, you have choices. Also, if you godforbid land near the ground near Marth but the Marth is ending lag, dair him and you can do this a ways away. However, it is risky because his U-tilt will kill.
You have to roll if you are playing as a Jigglypuff against a Marth. You never want to land near one unless you've sourspotted a fair near the ground. Then you want to F-tilt, grab, or F-smash if unsuspecting. And you play __G__, so you play a good Jigglypuff.
Also, if the Marth is stupid enough to double fair approach, it is so easy to throw in a bair after a fair. Kill moves, you have rollout, dash attack, edgeguard, fair.... drill rest is good but very risky.
"it doesn't work against a good spacing G&W"
>_>
Marth is better at spacing than GW because he has better disjointed hitboxes. You can't just say "it works better against Marth" without anything to back it up.
"Also, when the Marth is approaching you, fair him."
Your argument is terrible. I can't debate with you.
>_>
Marth is better at spacing than GW because he has better disjointed hitboxes. You can't just say "it works better against Marth" without anything to back it up.
"Also, when the Marth is approaching you, fair him."
Your argument is terrible. I can't debate with you.
Emblem Lord
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Steel, Marth's attacks are disjointed as well and their aerial mobility is the same I think. Spacing goes to Marth due to his slightly greater range.
You misread/i mistyped my post,
and when i said "better" disjointed hit boxes I meant range, yes
and when i said "better" disjointed hit boxes I meant range, yes