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Match-Up Discussion #28! Ike

Kirk

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Most peoples on are end (including myself) label it 60-40.

But yeah uhhh...one thing I will say is I hate dancing blade because it works sooooooo good.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Most peoples on are end (including myself) label it 60-40.

But yeah uhhh...one thing I will say is I hate dancing blade because it works sooooooo good.
This can't be 60:40.

65:35 at least.

Ike doesn't really have any spacing tools besides his jab, and Marth will easily poke right through that.

Marth basically ***** on stage and off stage and Ike doesn't have the tools to deal with him.
 

AzNsAnTaGiN

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I might be mistaken, but once Ike leaves the stage he's virtually dead. Aether is easily countered, Quick Draw easily intercepted (or countered), and a regular attempt to jump back on the stage can be easily D-Tilted or falling F-aired.

On a separate note, Marth can Dolphin Slash out of Ike's jab, but I forget which hit it has to be between.
 

Steel

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Ike easily can space with his aerials, it's not just the jab he has.

I really see no issues with 40-60.
I can see that, his aerials are good but most are slightly laggy at the end. Marth can just dancing blade once you land.

Ike's aerial mobility isn't that good. Unless, or even if, you hit with the very tip you will probably eat an up b out of shield. will have to be tested. If not, shield drop > dancing blade.

Marth can just play really gay in this match up and win. That's why it isn't 60:40.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Ike being slower on the stage coupled with the fact that Marth can counter his Aether for an easy gimp most of the time leads me to believe that this is at least 65-35
 

AndrewCarlson

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I actually see nothing wrong with 60-40. Having fought some good Ikes, definitely do not underestimate him and think you have the match in your hands. Don't forget that Marth's recovery isn't the best either. Ike can easily edgehog or intercept your recovery. And Marth being a lighter target means Ike has a much easier time sending you off the stage.
 

•Col•

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I might be mistaken, but once Ike leaves the stage he's virtually dead. Aether is easily countered, Quick Draw easily intercepted (or countered), and a regular attempt to jump back on the stage can be easily D-Tilted or falling F-aired.
The reverse Aether trick stops from being counter gimped...

Dolphin Slash and Dancing Blade are pretty geigh.

That's all I'm saying
 

HeroMystic

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The battle really depends on who gets thrown off stage first. A defensive and aggresive Ike that knows what he's doing can beat Marth off the stage first, but a aggressive Marth with good variety in his moves (That means not being predictable with F-air and Dancing Blade) can take Ike off the stage as well. That's what the Ike boards came up with during our discussion, and the fact that Marth can gimp Aether is what lead it to be a 60:40.

However, we didn't have much Marths in our discussion, just loads of experience, so I'm inclined to say a more in-depth discussion is in order for the sake of our match-up guide as well.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I actually see nothing wrong with 60-40. Having fought some good Ikes, definitely do not underestimate him and think you have the match in your hands. Don't forget that Marth's recovery isn't the best either. Ike can easily edgehog or intercept your recovery. And Marth being a lighter target means Ike has a much easier time sending you off the stage.
Lolwut? How does Ike gimp Marth? It doesn't work, it just doesn't. And of course Marth is light, but Ike has slow moves with the esception of Bair, Jab combo, and a few others. So how can you say this is 60-40? it doesn't make sense. What good Ike's have you played? Just because someone can beat you does not make them good. Stop basing your "facts" off of false information please.
 

Steel

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The battle really depends on who gets thrown off stage first. A defensive and aggresive Ike that knows what he's doing can beat Marth off the stage first, but a aggressive Marth with good variety in his moves (That means not being predictable with F-air and Dancing Blade) can take Ike off the stage as well. That's what the Ike boards came up with during our discussion, and the fact that Marth can gimp Aether is what lead it to be a 60:40.

However, we didn't have much Marths in our discussion, just loads of experience, so I'm inclined to say a more in-depth discussion is in order for the sake of our match-up guide as well.
An ike that knows what he is doing will always get Marth off the stage first? Huh?

Of course we expect the Ike to know what he is doing. You should expect the Marth to be top caliber as well and won't be just spamming fairs and dancing blade.

Marth has a much, MUCH better chance of recovering than Ike does.
 

AndrewCarlson

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Lolwut? what Ike's jave you played? And just because Marth is light does not mean Ike will have an easy time knocking him off, since his moves are slow with the exception of a couple of them. Stop basing your "facts" off of false information. Please.
False information? That's a laugh. Do you honestly think that I, being a Marth main, would readily make up disadvantages for Marth just for the sake of it? I'm obviously not going to sway your opinion, so why don't you do yourself a favor and see what Ike plays like in the right hands.
 

Emblem Lord

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65/35.

I play Ike and Marth.

I'm Emblem Lord.

You all play Fire Emblem Lords.

Therefore I am your God.

Bow down to me and my knowledge.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I deleted that post, read the first long one on here, and answer my question, which Ike's have you played? And unfortunately the only Ike's that are good that I've played were on Wi-fi, where I,ve played Comboking, Rave925, and a few other people's Ike's, not great, but they are OK. But yeah, it's Wi-Fi, I know.
 

HeroMystic

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An ike that knows what he is doing will always get Marth off the stage first? Huh?

Of course we expect the Ike to know what he is doing. You should expect the Marth to be top caliber as well and won't be just spamming fairs and dancing blade.

Marth has a much, MUCH better chance of recovering than Ike does.
I didn't say always, I said he can. Of course Marth will have the better chance due to his range and speed, but lets not factor out the chance that if Ike gets a hit, the momentum can easily go into his favor.

And Marth does have a better chance of recovering, yes, but lets not factor out Ike's best edgeguard tool against Marth: Eruption. A well-timed Eruption can send Marth flying when he's trying to sweetspot the ledge. The hitbox is rather huge and can hit from below. Sure, it's not as easy as Marth countering Aether, but it's still possible and can make an easy kill for Ike.
 

AndrewCarlson

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I deleted that post, read the first long one on here, and answer my question, which Ike's have you played? And unfortunately the only Ike's that are good that I've played were on Wi-fi, where I,ve played Comboking, Rave925, and a few other people's Ike's, not great, but they are OK. But yeah, it's Wi-Fi, I know.
Most recent Ike I fought was Light. Also played comboking, but I won every match if I remember correctly. The best Ikes here that post regularly would be Kirk and Ryko, I believe.
 

Steel

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I didn't say always, I said he can. Of course Marth will have the better chance due to his range and speed, but lets not factor out the chance that if Ike gets a hit, the momentum can easily go into his favor.

And Marth does have a better chance of recovering, yes, but lets not factor out Ike's best edgeguard tool against Marth: Eruption. A well-timed Eruption can send Marth flying when he's trying to sweetspot the ledge. The hitbox is rather huge and can hit from below. Sure, it's not as easy as Marth countering Aether, but it's still possible and can make an easy kill for Ike.
Uhm, I guess? lol, seriously. Come up with a better argument than "if he hits he will get momentum."

That's true, but you would have to predict the exact time when Marth will up b. He can mix it up with his forward b.

But let's go back to the on stage battle. Marth obviously dominates off stage. What makes this only a slight disadvantage to Ike when he simply does not have the tools to deal with Marth's zoning/speed/aerial mobility etc?
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Mmkay I know who Kirk is. Never heard of light, Comboking's ok, haven't played him for a few months... We were about even, but it's wi-fi and he lives in the EC... And Ike is great on Wi-Fi and Marth just is bad. But enough Wi-Fi johns...



Steel you made a great point about Marth vs. Ike onstage. Ike does not have the tools in the least to deal with Marth's quickness like you said. Marth is certainly much better onstage no doubt about that.
 

Emblem Lord

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Seriously. Ike takes a risk anytime he attacks and can't zone Marth effectively either..

How is this not 65/35?
 

AndrewCarlson

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And Marth does have a better chance of recovering, yes, but lets not factor out Ike's best edgeguard tool against Marth: Eruption. A well-timed Eruption can send Marth flying when he's trying to sweetspot the ledge. The hitbox is rather huge and can hit from below. Sure, it's not as easy as Marth countering Aether, but it's still possible and can make an easy kill for Ike.
I've also had Ikes D-tilt me out of Dolphin Slash right before I grabbed the ledge. But Dolphin Slash is a very fast move that is usually hard to intercept.
 

Nibbity

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yeah, as soon as he's offstage, double fairs are really effective, and I don't see too much Ike can do to catch Marth because Marth just has a large advantage in speed thanks to his dancing blade.
 

AndrewCarlson

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That's true, but you would have to predict the exact time when Marth will up b. He can mix it up with his forward b.
Agreed, Dolphin Slash is such a fast move that it would be hard to pull of the Eruption edgeguard without sufficient timing. But I suppose that comes with practice. I've seen people predict Marth's recovery very well. Dancing Blade doesn't do very much besides slow down Marth's fall speed, and Eruption has a huge lingering hitbox.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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What Steel is saying, I think, is that DB can be used to throw off the Eruption timing by stalling Marth in the air, so he will be harder to predict for his recovery.
 

A2ZOMG

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Seriously. Ike takes a risk anytime he attacks and can't zone Marth effectively either..

How is this not 65/35?
This statement.

Ike has like....ZERO safe attacks except like retreating F-air. I saw this Japanese guy play Ike on youtube, and that was pretty much like...80% of what he did. <<
 

AndrewCarlson

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What Steel is saying, I think, is that DB can be used to throw off the Eruption timing by stalling Marth in the air, so he will be harder to predict for his recovery.
I've seen this happen before. The Ike user kept charging Eruption while the Marth tried to keep stalling. Eventually, he realized he had to use Dolphin Slash, or he woudn't make it back to the stage. At that moment he used it, Eruption had charged completely and the knockback from the increased hitbox knocked Marth off the screen. It was quite a sight to see, and it's why I don't feel Dancing Blade is such a safe move to use for stalling. I'd rather grab the ledge as quickly as I can. Dolphin Slash will usually sweetspot before Eruption can hit anyways.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I know, I just meant to throw off the opponent as in use it once so they will see the sword movement, and release B thinking it is a n up-b, only to find out it isn't. Not to use it a lot, onlyas a mixup once of twice.
 

Emblem Lord

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Jab will get ike up bed.

All he has is retreating Fair and retreating Bair.

That's it.

65/35. It could even be worse, but Ike hits hard so I dunno.
 

•Col•

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I know, I just meant to throw off the opponent as in use it once so they will see the sword movement, and release B thinking it is a n up-b, only to find out it isn't. Not to use it a lot, onlyas a mixup once of twice.
If they don't fall for it the first time though, then that's kinda bad... x_x
 
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