Match-Up Discussion #26! Mario

Mario​

Go ^_^

This is a tricky match-up; Marth has range and priority in general with his tippers but Mario can distort Marth's spacing with fireballs and the FLUDD. Marth's ground game trumps Mario's because of his range but most of Mario's atks have about the same priority. FIHL limits Marth's approach but Marth can still abuse his range on the ground. Mario can use fireballs to approach Marth. Mario can gimp Marth easier than Marth can gimp Mario. Both Marth and Mario can combo (Loosly used) each other into oblivion. Marth's main advantage over Mario is his range, even Marth's priority doesn't really outright trump Mario's. IDK, this match-up is still in Marth's favor but it's a farily close match-up; 7:3/6:4 in Marth's favor. This match-up was far worse for Mario in Melee.

Yea, pretty much what Judge Judy said. I usually like to use D-air (Mario tornado) more in this match-up due to how annoying it can prove to be. Fireballs are also really annoying too. I find it actually pretty much easy to gimp Mario in Marth's case, just be careful of certain stages or else you will get staged-spiked.

Edit: I'm curious to know, Judge Judy are any of Marth's moves affected by FIHL? (FLUUD Induced Hit Lag, for those unaware of the term) Marth's aerials all seem to come out too fast, and don't have any long lasting hitboxes. (Such as Game and Watch's b-air.)

Funny this was posted. I just got back from fighting a half-way decent mario. =] (but I'm less than half-way decent)

Honestly, in the hands of a capable mario, F.L.U.D.D. can actually gimp Marth relatively well because of his lack of horizontal recovery. This along with the caping the dolphin slash before you get on the ledge(I've tested with this, he can cape you even though you're invincible) lets him have rather annoying gimp options.

But you still own Mario on stage. His moves that actually compete with your tippered range are generally smashes, so you can see them coming pretty easily. Just spot dodge and punish.

Fireballs are a crappy projectile. You shouldn't have much trouble getting around them. Perfect shield them if necessary. Honestly, I find it pretty easy to simply weave between them. I only find them a bit annoying off stage.

Mario has a relatively decent follow up game though. Unfortunatly, this is brawl and there is not histun. DI appropriately and counter or air dodge will stop the flow.

I'd honestly give this 70:30 marth. It's not the most complicated match up. 65:35 at best.

P.S. Mario has the most annoying uair. Don't get above him. Marth's options are much too limited there.

Judge Judy said:

This match-up was far worse for Mario in Melee.

Click to expand...

No it wasn't.

65:35 Marth at least.

No it wasn't.

Click to expand...

Wasn't it 8:2 Marth in melee? Marth was like his worst match up.

Matt07 said:

Yea, pretty much what Judge Judy said. I usually like to use D-air (Mario tornado) more in this match-up due to how annoying it can prove to be. Fireballs are also really annoying too. I find it actually pretty much easy to gimp Mario in Marth's case, just be careful of certain stages or else you will get staged-spiked.

Edit: I'm curious to know, Judge Judy are any of Marth's moves affected by FIHL? (FLUUD Induced Hit Lag, for those unaware of the term) Marth's aerials all seem to come out too fast, and don't have any long lasting hitboxes. (Such as Game and Watch's b-air.)

Click to expand...

The main moves to abuse FIHL on are Marth's Fair and Nair, it works on his other aerials but he won't be using them nearly as much as those two. Marth's aerials are fast, but you can still use the FLUDD on them unless you're like right next to him. Marth will also try hard to refrain from using his Up B as a finisher when playing you since most good Marth players know it's literally a free stock for Mario if he misses, but most Marth players rarly use it anyway unless they're sure they can hit you.

I say watch outh for the FLUDD and Cape on edgeguarding, counter his Smashes and UpB

65:35 Marth

Aah ok thanks, Judge Judy.

BO X7 said:

Wasn't it 8:2 Marth in melee? Marth was like his worst match up.

Click to expand...

It was like 65:35 or something. Mario combo'd the balls off of Marth, and edgeguarded him pretty well too.

Shiek was harder.

IT's not a 70:30 matchup. I play two Marth mains all day and I can easily say the match-up is in Marth's favor, but 70:30 is pushing it.

Fireballs are crappy to use for camping, but Mario mains use them to approach, not camp.

Mario has more than just the cape and FLUDD tactics for gimping. You have no idea how easy it is for Mario to just use a Cape Glide and U-air Marth to doom him on getting back onto the ledge. Marth is at the mercy of a Mario who knows the ins-outs on Mario's edgeguard game.

Marth's ground game easily topples Mario's game due to speed and range (<3 Sword Dance btw), and Marth's F-air can beat Mario's B-air from afar. However, Marth sucks from below, Mario will captialize on that and rack up damage that way. Marth is also fairly punishable his he happens to whiff his F-air or if Mario manages to spot dodge Sword dance.

That's basically how the entire match will go. Marth will pummel Mario to death while Mario heavily captializes on whiffs. Mario however automatically shifts the momentum to his side if Marth is thrown off-stage.

I would say 60:40 Marth, but due to the Tip, I'll go for 65:35. That's mainly what gets me KOed most of the time.

Mario can KO Marth at roughly 100% from Fsmash and around 110% from Usmash, can gimp Marth pretty easily due to cape ledgestall, Fludd, and fireballs, has a pretty decent close range game vs Marth because of jab cancels and Uair/Utilt chains, and fireballs are pretty good at opening up approaches.

Marth definitely has the advantage because of overwhelming range and priority, as well as speed to back it up. A Marth that spaces well can easily outplay Mario because getting close and staying close is such a pain, even with fireballs.

I say 60:40, simply because Mario HAS options and it doesn't take much to KO Marth should he make a mistake on spacing. Gimping is on the easy side as well. Marth has the tools to push Mario away, however, and keep him away.

Marth was Mario's hardest matchup in melee. Fox and Falco were close to even because of CG, semi-easy gimps, cape helped with projectiles and Mario comboed fastfallers to hell. Marth outranged him severely, was much faster than Mario, Mario's fireballs weren't as helpful for opening approaches, and Marth simply could not be comboed.

feardragon64 said:

Fireballs are a crappy projectile. You shouldn't have much trouble getting around them. Perfect shield them if necessary. Honestly, I find it pretty easy to simply weave between them. I only find them a bit annoying off stage.

Click to expand...

Fireballs have low priority but they're used for spacing and controlling approach; they aren't purely for spam, they're for disrupting atks and approaches.

Rukkiko said:

counter his Smashes and UpB

Click to expand...

You can't counter Mario's Up B, he's invincible during it; Marth will attempt to counter Mario's Up B but Mario will simply go through it unharmed due the Up B's invincibility frames.

I cosign 70:30

Mario's fireballs are good, but he really can't score too many multiple hits on Marth, and has a difficult time getting in Marth even with fireballs, since Marth has such a plethora of options to deal with that (the best of which is perfect shield). Since you can't move while utilizing grounded fireballs, they're best used from the air, and Mario approaching Marth from the air is just silly (whoa, that's an EL phrase).

Mario's jab is excellent, and his options once in to attack Marth are good, but as I said, he'll have a difficult time following up attacks on Marth. Apart from Fludd, edgeguarding Marth is just unwise for Mario.

It would be 65:35, but Mario's recovery is BAD, and Marth's edgeguarding game is GREAT, making it SUPER EASY to gimp Mario. This seems to secure it at 70:30

Judge Judy said:

Fireballs have low priority but they're used for spacing and controlling approach; they aren't purely for spam, they're for disrupting atks and approaches.



You can't counter Mario's Up B, he's invincible during it; Marth will attempt to counter Mario's Up B but Mario will simply go through it unharmed due the Up B's invincibility frames.

Click to expand...

Granted I did mean Mario's fireballs were a crappy projectile in the "projectile" sense, as Pierce already said, there are still a lot of options for dealing with them when Mario is on the approach.

Mario's best options involve getting the first hit on Marth and keeping him juggled with uair and harassing with jab. I agree, mario's uair chains have Marth somewhat beat since his options are severly limited in this position and he only has the option of finding a way to back off. But as for jab, this situation can usually be avoided with proper spacing.

And Pierce, Mario does have a lot of options past f.l.u.d.d. in gimping Marth. Heromystic's right about that. I would say Mario can gimp about evenly with Marth because Mario has so many options while gimping and Marth has a huge advantage in gimping AS LONG AS he maintains spacing. Mario's recovery may be bad, but if you mess up he'll be sure to take you down with him.

I'll stand by 65:35(how many freaking 65:35's and 60:40's does marth have?)

Dark Sonic said:

It was like 65:35 or something. Mario combo'd the balls off of Marth, and edgeguarded him pretty well too.

Shiek was harder.

Click to expand...

Marth could DI away and Fair every one of Mario's combo attempts. This was the biggest problem vs Marth in melee.

Vs Shiek, he had a Dthrow CG, and it comboed into his Fsmash. A reliable KO option like this was more than important for Mario in melee because his KO power was complete garbage. Plus...he could actually combo Shiek.

Pierce7d said:

Apart from Fludd, edgeguarding Marth is just unwise for Mario.

Click to expand...

Not really as bad as you might think. As long as we stay close to the ledge, caping Marth gets simple as well, even without Fludd. We also have a pseudo Link ledgestall for invincibility frames. Capeglide's also an option.

Pierce7d said:

It would be 65:35, but Mario's recovery is BAD, and Marth's edgeguarding game is GREAT, making it SUPER EASY to gimp Mario. This seems to secure it at 70:30

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say "super easy" but it's still an option. Our fireballs during recovery protect most approaches offstage, but if Marth happens to get past that, Fludd completely kills all edgeguarding possibilities. Marth's weight allows him to be pushed very far if Fludd is charged and he's in the air. Our upB stagespikes if we're close to the stage. It's never THAT easy to gimp Mario, it's usually the hit that sent us out that far that screws our recovery more than anything.

I'm curious...how do you figure Marth's recovery is better than Mario's?

sry if this had been said i just skimmed through it.

Mario can up B out of shield and he has invincability frames similar marth. I havent tested it but i assume he can up B out for dancing blade if it has similar properties to dolphin slash.

More range in the air, ALL disjointed aerials, more range on UpB, invincibility on UpB start up, our UpB also stage spikes (I play a little Mario, I like their similarities.)

Cape hogging is good, but not OMFG awesome edgeguard strat. Marth can chase you WAY off stage and be safe.

Seriously, have you seen Marth's fair/bair?

Also, I suspect that Mario's invincibility on UpB OOS is not really invincibility. I know Teh-Spammer tested this the other day on Bowser's fire-breath, but fire breath can be fanned (the hitboxes cancelled out by other higher priority non-projectile hitboxes) and Mario's UpB is fast and good.

It's still a favorable punishing option I use sometimes though. Try using it to interrupt R.O.B.'s dsmash or G&W's turtle. If it works, it's invincibility.

BTW, even if it is invincibility, does Mario's UpB outta shield hit Marth after a fully spaced Fair? If it is invincibilty though, it's a sexy option to punish Dancing Blade without risking shield poke/letting your shield get *****. Plus it deals good damage and knockback. TBH I hope I'm wrong about the no invincibility theory. It would make Mario move up on the tier list.

Mario's Up-B is invincible upon start-up. After that there's no more invincibility.

Marth's anti-edgeguard isn't entirely reliable against Mario. Yes, you can push him away, but Mario has fireballs. Fireballs can keep Marth distracted and allow to hit. Capeglide can also quickly get in Marth's face for a U-air. Mario can also attack from the ledge with B-air, but that's not so smart due to Marth's Up-B. Seriously, it doesn't take a lot to edgeguard Marth due to his horrible lack of horiztonal recovery. One U-air can do the trick.

This feels a lot like an Ike matchup btw.

Pierce7d said:

More range in the air, ALL disjointed aerials, more range on UpB, invincibility on UpB start up, our UpB also stage spikes (I play a little Mario, I like their similarities.)

Click to expand...

Okay, so these are Marth's recovery positives.

Mario has aerial capestall, which helps stop edgehogging, projectiles that come out at a perfect trajectory for descent to the stage, a better horizontal recovery because we can DI our upB and cape > Dancing blade for recovery, and Fludd which completely stops edgehogging altogether for lighter characters or can help our recovery if needed. Our uair also stagespikes along with upB.

Pierce7d said:

Cape hogging is good, but not OMFG awesome edgeguard strat.

Click to expand...

Still, it's effective vs Marth.

Pierce7d said:

Marth can chase you WAY off stage and be safe.

Click to expand...

Mario can with capeglide as well...just...can't do much while we're out there aside from Fludd or Uair. Marth's definitely better at this, I'll agree.

Pierce7d said:

Seriously, have you seen Marth's fair/bair?

Click to expand...

Yeah? Fair's a big reason why Marth > Mario in this matchup. Not doubting how epic both attacks are.

Just so you know, the cape glide can be used downwards too. The cape glide can basically destroy Marth's recovery if you kill some of Marth's momentum with the FLUDD ahead of time.

Pierce7d said:

Also, I suspect that Mario's invincibility on UpB OOS is not really invincibility. I know Teh-Spammer tested this the other day on Bowser's fire-breath, but fire breath can be fanned (the hitboxes cancelled out by other higher priority non-projectile hitboxes) and Mario's UpB is fast and good.

It's still a favorable punishing option I use sometimes though. Try using it to interrupt R.O.B.'s dsmash or G&W's turtle. If it works, it's invincibility.

BTW, even if it is invincibility, does Mario's UpB outta shield hit Marth after a fully spaced Fair? If it is invincibilty though, it's a sexy option to punish Dancing Blade without risking shield poke/letting your shield get *****. Plus it deals good damage and knockback. TBH I hope I'm wrong about the no invincibility theory. It would make Mario move up on the tier list.

Click to expand...

It does go through literally anything if you time it right but it's far too punishable for such little to gain.

65:35 is what this match-up should be.

I play one of the best mario's and also get to play boss's mario sometimes.

Its 65:35.

You can fan his fireballs while doing f-air or just jab them to keep him from coming in

HeroMystic said:

Mario's Up-B is invincible upon start-up. After that there's no more invincibility.

Marth's anti-edgeguard isn't entirely reliable against Mario. Yes, you can push him away, but Mario has fireballs. Fireballs can keep Marth distracted and allow to hit. Capeglide can also quickly get in Marth's face for a U-air. Mario can also attack from the ledge with B-air, but that's not so smart due to Marth's Up-B. Seriously, it doesn't take a lot to edgeguard Marth due to his horrible lack of horiztonal recovery. One U-air can do the trick.

This feels a lot like an Ike matchup btw.

Click to expand...

None of Mario's attacks from off the stage can gimp any player (not just Marth) that knows how to DI up, except cape. It's hard to hit Marth with cape, because Fair outranges it, and I'm pretty sure you have to hit Marth's hurtbox, not his disjointed sword hitbox. Also, how do you plan on safely Uairing Marth offstage?

Once again I ask, have you seen his Fair?

_kadaj_ said:

65:35 is what this match-up should be.

I play one of the best mario's and also get to play boss's mario sometimes.

Its 65:35.

You can fan his fireballs while doing f-air or just perfect shield them while you're on the ground

Click to expand...

Fixed

Don't fix it pierce Its useful in keeping them from approaching

Pierce7d said:

None of Mario's attacks from off the stage can gimp any player (not just Marth) that knows how to DI up, except cape. It's hard to hit Marth with cape, because Fair outranges it, and I'm pretty sure you have to hit Marth's hurtbox, not his disjointed sword hitbox. Also, how do you plan on safely Uairing Marth offstage?

Once again I ask, have you seen his Fair?



Fixed

Click to expand...

The only people Mario can't edgeguard are characters who people who can recover very high, such as R.O.B. But Mario can literally gimp well from any angle otherwise with the cape glide, the FLUDD, fireballs, and the cape; give Mario some credit for his superior edgeguarding abilities. Plus, people who recover high are typically harder to edgeguard in general anyway.

PS: Mario's FLUDD completely stops Marth's Fair and leaves him open to atk because of FIHL, and I don't need to charge it to do that.

Edgeguarding Comparisons....

In the end, if you recover low, and sweetspot your up b, you will avoid the cape FLUDD. Easier said then done however. Mario can also hug the ledge and sometimes snag a free KO. However the doplhin slash may hit Mario if his invincibility frames wear off. As said above, Mario should NOT attempt to go after Marth. One up b and he could be stagespiked.

When Mario is on the edge of the stage and Marth is recovering, its a wait and see game for Marth. Marth needs to guess which one of the options Mario will use and get around it.

The other way around, Marth can simply do a falling fair and grab the ledge for a KO.

I'm not trying to take away Mario's edgeguard abilities. It's profoundly unsafe to edgeguard Marth, as he completely destroys you in the air. You'd first have to hit Marth at a low angle, which means Dsmashing him off AND him not DIing up.

I'm very interested in this FIHL stuff. It sounds like a useful Mario AT I'm not aware of, and very well may have a positive affect for Mario in the match-up. Please elaborate, or provide a link to a description, if you don't feel like explaining. You are aware though that Marth's Fairs are generally retreated, comes out on frame 4, and autocancels, with not a lot of cooldown at all.

This can't be 60/40. All Mario has on Marth is FIHL and good edge guarding. That's it.

Marth dominates on the stage. Mario can only try to play defensive and try to hit Marth off so he can go for a gimp.

Marth overall has much better tools and takes control of the match from the moment the announcer says GO!!!!

More range and can easily contend with Mario's fireballs.

Also I wanted to ask about caping recoveries. Since Marth goes straight up, if he is caped during his up b could he still grab the ledge when he gets turned around?

Anyway, I personally see this as 70/30. But that's just me. Remember that having good edgeguarding is nice. But like any other trap scenario it's not enough to have good trap moves, but also the tools to consistently create that trap in the match-up.

And Marth can gimp Mario and harass his recovery effectively as well.

_kadaj_ said:

65:35 is what this match-up should be.

I play one of the best mario's and also get to play boss's mario sometimes.

Its 65:35.

You can fan his fireballs while doing f-air or just jab them to keep him from coming in

Click to expand...

How do you do vs Boss? Also, saying "it's 65:35" isn't really convincing me. Persuade me a little.

And everyone can jab Mario's fireballs, they don't have good priority. I guess they're useless right?

Pierce7d said:

None of Mario's attacks from off the stage can gimp any player (not just Marth) that knows how to DI up, except cape. It's hard to hit Marth with cape, because Fair outranges it, and I'm pretty sure you have to hit Marth's hurtbox, not his disjointed sword hitbox. Also, how do you plan on safely Uairing Marth offstage?

Once again I ask, have you seen his Fair?

Click to expand...

What can Marth do if the opponent DIs up?

Cape hits fine if you space well, you just can't try and use it aggressively like Marth can use Fair. It usually follows Fludd anyways, which makes landing the cape much easier. I'm not sure about where you have to it, I just know that it hasn't ever really given me a problem.

Uairing alone isn't safe at all. Uair after capeglide is alot more plausible a strategy.

zelda_master_timmy said:

Edgeguarding Comparisons....

In the end, if you recover low, and sweetspot your up b, you will avoid the cape FLUDD. Easier said then done however. Mario can also hug the ledge and sometimes snag a free KO. However the doplhin slash may hit Mario if his invincibility frames wear off. As said above, Mario should NOT attempt to go after Marth. One up b and he could be stagespiked.

When Mario is on the edge of the stage and Marth is recovering, its a wait and see game for Marth. Marth needs to guess which one of the options Mario will use and get around it.

The other way around, Marth can simply do a falling fair and grab the ledge for a KO.

Click to expand...

Mario's downwards glide glide can still intercept Marth Up B and prevent him from sweetspotting. Also, the cape teleport has a chance of coming into play since it allows Mario to cape Marth as he sweetspots but I still doubt it'll happen since the timing is near impossible to do consistantly anyway. FLUDD and fireballs are Mario's main form of defense off-stage, fireballs are possible to get around but the FLUDD usually is not. The prime advantage Mario has when edgeguarding is that he has numerous options and most of them cannot defended against if executed properly.

feardragon64 said:

I'll stand by 65:35(how many freaking 65:35's and 60:40's does marth have?)

Click to expand...

More than any other character in the game.

Man I have missed the marth boards. 65:35 is this matchup.

Marth ***** on stage

Mario wins off stage but with proper DI this issue doesn't occure as much as you think. As a person who mains Link, I know how to DI and deal with bad recoveries to some extent. You can get around mario's gimping game by mixing up how you recover and with proper DI.

Emblem Lord said:

This can't be 60/40. All Mario has on Marth is FIHL and good edge guarding. That's it.

Marth dominates on the stage. Mario can only try to play defensive and try to hit Marth off so he can go for a gimp.

Marth overall has much better tools and takes control of the match from the moment the announcer says GO!!!!

More range and can easily contend with Mario's fireballs.

Also I wanted to ask about caping recoveries. Since Marth goes straight up, if he is caped during his up b could he still grab the ledge when he gets turned around?

Click to expand...

Mario also has just as good juggles as Marth and almost as good priority (Those tips are nasty). Marth has range, that his prime advantage, even his speed really isn't that much greater than Mario's. Marth's range gives him a large edge but it's still partially counteracted by the fact that Mario can still deal with people who out-range him. Up close Mario and Marth breaks even, but with good spacing Marth can still abuse his range and speed enough to overwhelm.

BTW, to answer your question if Mario capes your Up B when you're going straight up you won't sweetspot the ledge and you'll go higher than normal; no you can't grab the ledge unless the Mario does nothing to stop you from grabbing it after you've been caped.

Matador said:

How do you do vs Boss? Also, saying "it's 65:35" isn't really convincing me. Persuade me a little.

And everyone can jab Mario's fireballs, they don't have good priority. I guess they're useless right?

What can Marth do if the opponent DIs up?

Cape hits fine if you space well, you just can't try and use it aggressively like Marth can use Fair. It usually follows Fludd anyways, which makes landing the cape much easier. I'm not sure about where you have to it, I just know that it hasn't ever really given me a problem.

Uairing alone isn't safe at all. Uair after capeglide is alot more plausible a strategy.

Click to expand...

It's been know for quite some time that Marth has the second best match-ups in the game, as well as no hard counter. However, he's not S-Tier, because he lags broken stuff (IE: Tornado, 2 hit **** range Ftilt, Chain Throw at any %, Turtle, Lasers, Recovery and Camping).

Plus, he does poorly or average against all of the S-Tier.

If the opponent DI's up, Marth can Fair them again, and retreat back to stage, and Bair, or Fair AGAIN. And continue doing this until the mindgames he's using to connect these moves (IE: waiting out airdodges, baiting moves, Dancing Blade stall, etc) don't work any the opponent gets back to the ledge. However, Mario cannot do this to Marth, because Marth outranges him with a disjointed hitbox.

Seriously, Marth ***** Mario off stage.

Pierce7d said:

It's been know for quite some time that Marth has the second best match-ups in the game, as well as no hard counter. However, he's not S-Tier, because he lags broken stuff (IE: Tornado, 2 hit **** range Ftilt, Chain Throw at any %, Turtle, Lasers, Recovery and Camping).

Plus, he does poorly or average against all of the S-Tier.

If the opponent DI's up, Marth can Fair them again, and retreat back to stage, and Bair, or Fair AGAIN. And continue doing this until the mindgames he's using to connect these moves (IE: waiting out airdodges, baiting moves, Dancing Blade stall, etc) don't work any the opponent gets back to the ledge. However, Mario cannot do this to Marth, because Marth outranges him with a disjointed hitbox.

Seriously, Marth ***** Mario off stage.

Click to expand...

Yah, but Mario still ***** Marth much harder off stage than vice-versa; Marth doesn't have the defenses Mario does off stage, nor does he have the options. A disjointed hitbox is not enough since Mario's FLUDD does not have to hit your hurtbox to stop you. Also, Mario's cape glide is fast enough where Marth cannot outright stop it.

Let me summarize the debate between Marth and Mario gimping off stage.

Mario CAN gimp Marth of stage and has the tools to do so, but Marth also has the tools to prevent it and punish him for failing to properly gimp.
Basically, it's risky business for both. Either one could loose a stock, though Marth is more likely to loose a stock when he's getting gimped because his options are a bit more limited.

The EXACT same thing is true vice versa. Marth CAN gimp Mario off stage and has the tools to do so, but Mario has the tools to punish him for failing to properly gimp. It's risky business for both and either one of them could loose a stock, though Mario is more likely to loose a stock when he's getting gimped because his options are a bit more limited.

Sound familiar?

Emblem Lord said:

This can't be 60/40. All Mario has on Marth is FIHL and good edge guarding. That's it.

Click to expand...

Mario's close range game is pretty good vs Marth and effectively racks up damage. With Marth being one of the lighter characters, Mario can reliably KO him around 100% and sometimes lower. Usmash kills at pretty decent percentages as well and is as easy to land as TL's Usmash. From my understanding, Marth doesn't have many options from below and with vertical KOs being so important in this game, this is a pretty big plus.

Emblem Lord said:

Marth dominates on the stage. Mario can only try to play defensive and try to hit Marth off so he can go for a gimp.

Click to expand...

Indeed, from the start Marth can freely approach aggressively and with little risk to himself if spaced well. It doesn't take much for the tide to change, however, because once Mario's on the inside, we have just as much freedom. All it takes is for a fireball to land, a badly spaced Fair, powershielded Fair, FIHL on Fair or something of that nature and we're on the inside, with only dancing blade to worry about.

Emblem Lord said:

Marth overall has much better tools and takes control of the match from the moment the announcer says GO!!!!

Click to expand...

I agree. From the beginning, it's Marth's serve, and it's our job to try and find a hole to safely approach thru. Not really a good position to be in.

Emblem Lord said:

More range and can easily contend with Mario's fireballs.

Click to expand...

Everyone can easily contend with Mario's fireballs since they have little priority. If they force you to space a Fair differently, or throw out a jab where you normally wouldn't have tho, it has done its job. That difference sometimes = approach.

Our range isn't THAT bad either. Stutterstepped Fsmash > Marth's Fsmash range, and our Bair has pretty decent range as well. And we have fireballs.

Emblem Lord said:

Also I wanted to ask about caping recoveries. Since Marth goes straight up, if he is caped during his up b could he still grab the ledge when he gets turned around?

Click to expand...

Not usually. It does happen from time to time if the Mario isn't on the ledge, but not very often even then.

Emblem Lord said:

Anyway, I personally see this as 70/30. But that's just me. Remember that having good edgeguarding is nice. But like any other trap scenario it's not enough to have good trap moves, but also the tools to consistently create that trap in the match-up.

Click to expand...

In close, we have pretty nice trap options as well. From Dthrow, it's always an RPS game and can lead to more damage than it's worth if you guess wrong.

Emblem Lord said:

And Marth can gimp Mario and harass his recovery effectively as well.

Click to expand...

Not as much as you'd think. Marth's edgeguarding options are limited if we Fludd before you even get close. We also always have fireballs protecting our approach and capestalls for helping to deal with ledgehogging. Still effective, but less vs Mario.

This is generally how I fight Marths.Let me know where I did punishable things and whatnot. Perhaps thinking 60:40 is wrong, but I'm not seeing it from where I stand.

I don't think it's 70/30. Sure, Marth does overall have better tools onstage, but I really don't think he has it better to the extent where that makes the matchup 70/30, since Mario does have a number of answers to Marth's attacks. 65/35 sounds more right to me.

Marth's range advantage (especially his grab range) isn't nearly as big as it was in Melee, so getting inside his range isn't as hard as it used to be.

Marth really can't do much when he's above Mario either, since L-canceling doesn't exist, making his D-air risky. Any good Mario that knows how to react to counter or air dodges can give Marth a fairly hard time once they get a good hit in. If Marth tries to D-air, that can be more easily countered by a well-placed Up-B.

I'm pretty sure Mario can Up-B out of shield against DB since his Up-B has invul frames, but I haven't tried to do that yet.

Mario's N-air is also underestimated when it comes to edgeguarding. The horizontal knockback is pretty ideal for that purpose.

feardragon64 said:

Let me summarize the debate between Marth and Mario gimping off stage.

Mario CAN gimp Marth of stage and has the tools to do so, but Marth also has the tools to prevent it and punish him for failing to properly gimp.
Basically, it's risky business for both. Either one could loose a stock, though Marth is more likely to loose a stock when he's getting gimped because his options are a bit more limited.

The EXACT same thing is true vice versa. Marth CAN gimp Mario off stage and has the tools to do so, but Mario has the tools to punish him for failing to properly gimp. It's risky business for both and either one of them could loose a stock, though Mario is more likely to loose a stock when he's getting gimped because his options are a bit more limited.

Sound familiar?

Click to expand...

I can agree here, although Mario has more plausible options than Marth does. Marth's is just harder to get around.

Pierce7d said:

It's been know for quite some time that Marth has the second best match-ups in the game, as well as no hard counter. However, he's not S-Tier, because he lags broken stuff (IE: Tornado, 2 hit **** range Ftilt, Chain Throw at any %, Turtle, Lasers, Recovery and Camping).

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter if he had NO bad matchups, we can't just assume he's good vs Mario based on how well he does vs everyone else. Mario has relatively low % KO moves vs Marth, simple edgeguarding/gimping, a combo game, and a projectile to aid in approach and racking up damage. The only thing Marth really has over Mario is range. It just so happens that range is enough to trump Mario because that's his biggest weak point, so that gives him an advantage. I just don't believe that it's as big as 70:30 or even 65:35 because of Marth's range.

Pierce7d said:

If the opponent DI's up, Marth can Fair them again, and retreat back to stage, and Bair, or Fair AGAIN. And continue doing this until the mindgames he's using to connect these moves (IE: waiting out airdodges, baiting moves, Dancing Blade stall, etc) don't work any the opponent gets back to the ledge. However, Mario cannot do this to Marth, because Marth outranges him with a disjointed hitbox.

Click to expand...

I thought you meant options as reliable the ones used when the opponent is recovering lower. What you're describing is indeed an option, but Mario can do things similar to this. Reverse Uairs, upB and DJ'd Fludd can do the same thing you're saying here with baiting moves, capestalls and predicting airdodges/landings.

Either way, Mario has ways around this in the matchup. Fludd you away from the edge so that we can safely grab it, and fireball on the way down to prevent Marth from moving how he normally would in that particular situation.

Pierce7d said:

Seriously, Marth ***** Mario off stage.

Click to expand...

Not really. Aggressively using Fair and Bair are pretty good normally I'll bet, but Marth is so light, that Fludd pushes him away as you approach, far enough away so that we can safely grab the edge. The only defense against this is not letting us charge Fludd in the first place, since Fludd is a projectile.

feardragon64 said:

Let me summarize the debate between Marth and Mario gimping off stage.

Mario CAN gimp Marth of stage and has the tools to do so, but Marth also has the tools to prevent it and punish him for failing to properly gimp.
Basically, it's risky business for both. Either one could loose a stock, though Marth is more likely to loose a stock when he's getting gimped because his options are a bit more limited.

Click to expand...

I agree. Both must be careful either way you look at it.

feardragon64 said:

The EXACT same thing is true vice versa. Marth CAN gimp Mario off stage and has the tools to do so, but Mario has the tools to punish him for failing to properly gimp. It's risky business for both and either one of them could loose a stock, though Mario is more likely to loose a stock when he's getting gimped because his options are a bit more limited.

Sound familiar?

Click to expand...

The problem I'm having is that Mario's defense is a projectile while Marth's is an attack. Why would we need to even get close to edgeguard them or let them get close to edgeguard us?

In that vid, the Marth was BAD. He had no idea what perfect shielding projectiles can do for you, and had horrible spacing. He did not use Fair, Nair, Dtilt, or Dancing Blade appropriately, and missed a lot of stuff by miles. HE GOT METEOR SMASHED FOR GOODNESS SAKE, WHY WOULD YOU EVEN BRING THAT GARBAGE TO THIS DISCUSSION?

Sorry, but Marth's Fair really does beat Mario's options of the edge. It out-ranges his entire midair moveset (his entire moveset except maybe ftilt and fsmash maybe). Fireballs help, but only if Marth is approaching from below, and he can fan this. You really should not hit Marth before he tipper Fairs you with is disjointed hitbox at highest level play. Raining Fireballs is legit, FLUDD is legit, even cape and cape gliding is somewhat legit, but Aerials? NO. Marth ***** Mario's range, and once again, I mention that Fair is disjointed.

Also, have you seen Marth's tipper Fsmash? He has a relatively low K.O. moves on the whole roster, lol. However, it shouldn't consistently land, just as Mario's Fsmash should not be consistantly landed.

Marth also has better punishers and follow-ups than Mario, as well as better edgeguarding. Recovery is a sketchy section, but I believe Marth's is better. He gets more lateral distance while falling I believe.

Mario can't edgeguard Marth while he's recovering from high, because Marth's Fair swings downward, and Mario will get cut before he hits Marth. If you jump off the stage at me, I won't dodge, I'll cut you before you get a chance to do anything.

Marth's Stutterstepped Fsmash > Mario's Fsmash. What are you trying to say here, lol.

Mario does have more reliable kill moves, but Marth has better punishers (and Dolphin Slash OOS, which can kill btw)

Mario does have good projectile tools to edgeguard from the stage, but this is counteracted by very basic upward DI. What can Mario really do vs Bair -> Fair in the air (you can't airdodge both consecutively, it's impossible). You don't have the range to deal with that problem. You don't have the range to deal with Marth's fair. Seriously, you get wrecked off stage. Mario's Uair is awesome, and fast, but it's seriously lacking in the range department compared to Marth, and I remind you that our whole moveset is disjointed. Your only disjointed moves are cape and fsmash. True, you have two projectiles, but seriously, not that much of an issue.

Mario is very good once he gets in . . . at least for scoring one or two hits. How do you plan on consistently getting in? And we do have good retreating options if need be. Seriously, retreating Fair, retreating dash to pivot tilt or Dancing Blade.

Using FLUDD as you are recovering to muff an edgeguard is a good idea, and does give you merit, but now you're relying on FLUDD a lot. How do you plan on having time charge it all the time? Marth is going to be constantly pressuring you.

Spacing a tipper Fair to edgeguard you is a reliable option regardless of whether you are recovering high or low, because you don't have that much range. Granted, Fireballs allow you to recover from high safer, but it's not good enough to stop an onslaught of Fairs, because it's not quick enough (Fair comes out frame 4).

I may have originally underestimated Mario's special move edgeguarding, but he still can't touch Marth with his primary moveset off stage unless the Marth messes up.