Yoshi
Go ^_^
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Match-Up Discussion #23! Yoshi
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Go ^_^
crazn137
Smash Journeyman
Footstool 2nd jump ftw
Mmac
Smash Lord
Yoshi > Marth
Serious analysis coming when I'm not busy. For now I say it's about 60:40 Marth
Edit:
in cuteness
Serious analysis coming when I'm not busy. For now I say it's about 60:40 Marth
Edit:
Stupid stereotypes <_<
70:30 Marth, 'cause Marth can wreak all sorts of havoc on Yoshi's game.
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
Marth's always been one of Yoshi's tougher matches. I'd say 65:35 Marth, possibly because Yoshi won't hit a girl.
chimpact
Smash Lord
DANG BURRRRN!!!!
I like to spam grabs and eggs in this match up. Less Bair more grab. Nair is also very useful for priority. I havent played any REALLY good marths, but he seems easy to edgeguard. Fair/Nair seem to work pretty well due to him usually recovering under the stage. While he's trying to get under Fair/Nair. But Marth has some uber range on yoshi and has way too many defensive options against him. 65-35 still marth.
I like to spam grabs and eggs in this match up. Less Bair more grab. Nair is also very useful for priority. I havent played any REALLY good marths, but he seems easy to edgeguard. Fair/Nair seem to work pretty well due to him usually recovering under the stage. While he's trying to get under Fair/Nair. But Marth has some uber range on yoshi and has way too many defensive options against him. 65-35 still marth.
bigman40
Smash Master
I'll wait till I hear from some Marths before I talk.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Nair good for priority? There's no such thing as midair priority, and Marth has all disjointed moves, while Yoshi has like, eggs and his grab, lol.
Marth can zone Yoshi decent, but eggs force him to approach. Yoshi's recovery isn't as gimpable as myth tells, but he doesn't have awesome options from the ledge. In the air, Yoshi is weak from the front, and that's Marth's strongest point. On the ground, Marth super out-zones Yoshi, and eggs are too easy to Perfect Shield. Dtilt scratches Yoshi's whole game except dash grab, and when fair and dancing blade is in the mix, this is not really a special match-up. Just be really patient and sit on the ledge until Yoshi tries to do something. He really has poor options against Marth though. I'd say 35-65 Marth.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yoshi pretty much looks silly the entire match. Throw egg-> foxtrot away from side b approach-> throw egg-> fullhop bair->nair-> run away again, lol.
60-40 marth me thinks, no worse.
60-40 marth me thinks, no worse.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
QFT, agreed.
If Marth stays facing Yoshi and at a relative safe distance, Marth will likely walk home with this one. Space with fairs, ftilt beats Yoshi's bair, and so does a dolphin slash out of shield. Everything else was already posted. The Matchup isnt total ****, but it is definitely strong in Marths favor.
65:35 Marth, or 60:40 Marth.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I guess I have to start this early.
I say this matchup is 60:40. Once you know this matchup, it's really not that hard at all.
First of all, the only advantages Marth has is Range, and a bit more power. Thats it. They both have equal amount of Speed in their attacks. One thing I found on Marth is that every move he has has enough after lag in his attacks to capitalize on. This is going to be a matchup where Yoshi has to play safe, and pick his attacks carefully. Yoshi also wants to avoid using any moves that leave him too open.
While Yoshi doesn't have anything on Marth to abuse from grabs, Pivot Grabs are still important in this matchup, as it's a good approach stopper. Running Grabs are good also for over-defencive Marths, but use with care. Yoshi also has an projectile which can be good to stopping aerial approaches, or forcing Marth to be more aggressive.
In Recovery and Edgeguarding, I actually say that Yoshi has the upper hand. As speedy and rangey his Aerials are, he has no form of Projectile to buff out Yoshi's recovery, making it very hard for him to intercept. Yoshi should be careful too due to Marth's UpB, but he still has a fallback with his Egg's. Yoshi's Dair can actually cancel out his UpB (At least, most of the time for me) so if you go too low, it will actually kill you. His UpB is actually pretty easy to edgehog, but can stagespike if not careful
Overall, Marth's Speed and Range alone is enough to give him an advantage, but he really doesn't have anything else that stands out to gain an solid upper hand on Yoshi. As long as Yoshi's defencive game is good and you don't play too aggressively, it shouldn't be that hard
60:40 Marth
I say this matchup is 60:40. Once you know this matchup, it's really not that hard at all.
First of all, the only advantages Marth has is Range, and a bit more power. Thats it. They both have equal amount of Speed in their attacks. One thing I found on Marth is that every move he has has enough after lag in his attacks to capitalize on. This is going to be a matchup where Yoshi has to play safe, and pick his attacks carefully. Yoshi also wants to avoid using any moves that leave him too open.
While Yoshi doesn't have anything on Marth to abuse from grabs, Pivot Grabs are still important in this matchup, as it's a good approach stopper. Running Grabs are good also for over-defencive Marths, but use with care. Yoshi also has an projectile which can be good to stopping aerial approaches, or forcing Marth to be more aggressive.
In Recovery and Edgeguarding, I actually say that Yoshi has the upper hand. As speedy and rangey his Aerials are, he has no form of Projectile to buff out Yoshi's recovery, making it very hard for him to intercept. Yoshi should be careful too due to Marth's UpB, but he still has a fallback with his Egg's. Yoshi's Dair can actually cancel out his UpB (At least, most of the time for me) so if you go too low, it will actually kill you. His UpB is actually pretty easy to edgehog, but can stagespike if not careful
Overall, Marth's Speed and Range alone is enough to give him an advantage, but he really doesn't have anything else that stands out to gain an solid upper hand on Yoshi. As long as Yoshi's defencive game is good and you don't play too aggressively, it shouldn't be that hard
60:40 Marth
>_>
Yoshi would probably have to play somewhat gay to win this match seeing as he is easily zoned by Marth, yes. but marth certainly has the speed to not let Yoshi get too far away and back him into a corner.
But yeah, probably 65:35 or 70:30.
Every move?I guess I have to start this early.
I say this matchup is 60:40. Once you know this matchup, it's really not that hard at all.
First of all, the only advantages Marth has is Range, and a bit more power. Thats it. They both have equal amount of Speed in their attacks. One thing I found on Marth is that every move he has has enough after lag in his attacks to capitalize on. This is going to be a matchup where Yoshi has to play safe, and pick his attacks carefully. Yoshi also wants to avoid using any moves that leave him too open.
While Yoshi doesn't have anything on Marth to abuse from grabs, Pivot Grabs are still important in this matchup, as it's a good approach stopper. Running Grabs are good also for over-defencive Marths, but use with care. Yoshi also has an projectile which can be good to stopping aerial approaches, or forcing Marth to be more aggressive.
In Recovery and Edgeguarding, I actually say that Yoshi has the upper hand. As speedy and rangey his Aerials are, he has no form of Projectile to buff out Yoshi's recovery, making it very hard for him to intercept. Yoshi should be careful too due to Marth's UpB, but he still has a fallback with his Egg's. Yoshi's Dair can actually cancel out his UpB (At least, most of the time for me) so if you go too low, it will actually kill you. His UpB is actually pretty easy to edgehog, but can stagespike if not careful
Overall, Marth's Speed and Range alone is enough to give him an advantage, but he really doesn't have anything else that stands out to gain an solid upper hand on Yoshi. As long as Yoshi's defencive game is good and you don't play too aggressively, it shouldn't be that hard
60:40 Marth
Spaced fair and spaced dtilt (which has IASA frames) are perfectly safe on block and the two most used moves by Marth. If marth just isn't throwing out smashes randomly, which he won't, how is Yoshi going to get inside Marth's sword?
Yoshi will be tough to gimp, yes. But Marth's up b can be stalled with his forward B and can float there long enough to out last Yoshi's invinc frames on the ledge.
chimpact
Smash Lord
I meant it as like a gtfo move.
levitas has gone as far as to poison the Yoshi boards as well with his terminology, I see.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Ledge-canceled Egg Toss is a very nice option, actually.
You're forgetting that Egg Toss is as much about what you're NOT doing as much as what you're doing. If I throw an egg too high, it keeps you from going to the air. If I throw one too close, it keeps you from running forward. You have to remember that not every Egg is going to be aimed directly at you, making it a lot more than just a matter of standing there and perfect-shielding every egg.
How do you figure?
This, I actually have to agree with. Yoshi has a bad time against Marth, no question. I just wanted to clarify just how much of a bad time it would be.
I hope you're talking about Marth and not Yoshi. I couldn't picture Yoshi considering Marth "Not that hard at all."
*Coughs*
*Points to gigantic freaking disjointed hitbox*
Why are we assuming that Yoshi is going to play with caution and Marth isn't?
I don't think it's safe to assume that Marth will have trouble closing the gap, to be honest.
Beating Marth with Yoshi is all about hoping that you're one step ahead of him for the entire match. It's all about having him scouted, because if you make a mistake, you WILL pay for it. Yoshi can stay ahead of Marth if he knows what the Marth player is going to do, but if he gets out-guessed by Marth, he is at a significantly greater risk, and the momentum that he spent a long, grueling match building instantly does a 180 turn.Overall, Marth's Speed and Range alone is enough to give him an advantage, but he really doesn't have anything else that stands out to gain an solid upper hand on Yoshi. As long as Yoshi's defencive game is good and you don't play too aggressively, it shouldn't be that hard
60:40 Marth
I'd put this match at 7:3 Marth, or at a MINIMUM 6.5:3.5 Marth.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I'm well aware of what Marth can do, and I am not basing opinions on Random C-Stick happy Marths. Fair actually does have lag. You got to remember that Yoshi is mostly an Aerial based character, and also remember that Yoshi's primary form of defence is Pivot Grabs and not standard shielding. He also has great aerial mobility, which helps spacing in aerial based fights
I forgot about his SideB
. However Yoshi can also just restart the ledgegrab by letting go and using his UpB if he can telegraph a stall correctly.
You make this an "aerial based" fight and yoshi will eat ftilt all day.
Fact is yoshi has a very hard time getting inside Marth's sword so how is he going to reliably damage marth?
Fact is yoshi has a very hard time getting inside Marth's sword so how is he going to reliably damage marth?
bigman40
Smash Master
Powershield the Fair (I've gotten it down on some Marths and I can get in a little easier than just dodging the Fair and trying to punish from there).
I've fought some nasty Marths and as long as you can stay ahead of the opponent and directly RIGHT IN THE FACE (granted you dodge still), you'll be getting in some hits. I'd say that playing at a mid spot for Yoshi won't work well cause of the options Marth has.
The biggest problem for Yoshi about this is landing a kill move. Yoshi doesn't have many options to kill Marth with, and seeing as how Marth can moderately stay away from Yoshi's range makes it even harder to land one (DR FTW ^_^).
Also, the Dancing Blade is annoying, can't deny that factor.
I've fought some nasty Marths and as long as you can stay ahead of the opponent and directly RIGHT IN THE FACE (granted you dodge still), you'll be getting in some hits. I'd say that playing at a mid spot for Yoshi won't work well cause of the options Marth has.
The biggest problem for Yoshi about this is landing a kill move. Yoshi doesn't have many options to kill Marth with, and seeing as how Marth can moderately stay away from Yoshi's range makes it even harder to land one (DR FTW ^_^).
Also, the Dancing Blade is annoying, can't deny that factor.
Mmac
Smash Lord
His hitbox isn't disjointed at all (Unless I'm missing something) All of his attacks follow his sword correctly, unless you mean disjointed as in "He has sword!"
Because we have a Long Range Projectile and he doesn't, we have the freedom to force him to be aggressive. He can't powershield/ledgecamp forever
Again, it's not that hard. If you can dodge attacks well and know what he can do, it's not that hard to fight him. If I make a mistake, I usually don't get punished much. Just one or two strikes and it just goes back to normal. It's not like if you screw up Marth will do some sort of 9 hit combo for 80%.
Also, Ledgecamping will never work against Yoshi. Yoshi can just pummel you off the ledge with Eggs
Aerial Based Fight = Both Characters in the air. Plus Ftilt has lag, If Yoshi spaces right and Airdodges into it, he can pull off one of his quick attacks (Jabs, Tilts, Dsmash) without getting punished
What kind of argument is that? Why can't I just say Marth has the advantage over Meta Knight if you are really good at evading attacks and because punishment is very minimal in this game?
We're speaking of two top level players of equal skill, not individual experiences.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
That's exactly what I mean. His sword is a gigantic hitbox.
We're not talking about Falco's SHDL, here. Egg Toss isn't the safest projectile in the world, especially at middle range.
Well, that is true. after all, you can only push a match so far with Brawl's lack of hit-stun. But remember that Marth still has the Ken combo, albeit in less-effective form.
No doubt about that!
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Like you said, Yoshi doesnt have any kill moves at all that Marth will not punish if missed. If you stay in Marth's face...dolphin slash ^_^. The fsmash from Yoshi is horrible, dsmash is unsafe when blocked. Up smash is also punished by the dancing blade or a dolphin slash.
Yoshi has no good approach, the egg toss fails and the egg roll will be either up b'd or countered.
Yoshi is heavier then Marth, if it wasnt for Yoshi's weight, the Match would prolly be 75:25 Marth or worse. The lack of options from Yoshi due to a simple fair and ftilt is too potent, and is what really kills the match for Yoshi.
Yes, and Marth is ranked 12th in aerial mobility. What makes Yoshi able to outspace him?
I get the impression you think Marth will just rush in with aerials and you can punish. You still haven't been able to give a valid argument of how Yoshi will be able to get past marth's sword and deal with Marth's zoning and pressure game. Fact is, a character with less range and not good enough tools is not able to do so effectively.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Not to be contrary (because I agree with you in principle), but up air is one of Yoshi's best kill moves, and is relatively safe if missed. Down smash is by NO stretch of the imagination one of Yoshi's kill moves, either (anymore...).
Yoshi will absolutely not even consider approaching in this match. Why would you think that he would?
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Someone has to approach eventually, and if a Marth gets chip damage by fairing and dtilting a Yoshi is going to approach. If not, the Yoshi will be slowly taken down by tipped tilts.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Wait, what? If Marth is already in range to hit Yoshi, then an approach isn't necessary. An approach is what you do to GET in range.
bigman40
Smash Master
His smashes are the same for Yoshi......but unfortunately all his moves, when tipped, become near kill moves. -__-;
I'll say that as much as Marth is zoning out Yoshi, Yoshi, on the other hand, has to setup traps to get in. Weak egg throw and a charging Yoshi (could either grab, attack, or bait your dodge out and punish) are pretty ugly moments.
I think Dolphin Slash can be DI'ed out of (I did it a few times randomly), and If I'm close in your face, you'll be sure that an A A combo will will be coming to get you off-balance. As much as you rely on tilts, Yoshi can counter those well when he's close enough to get tilts in (except for Dtilt).
I will never give the option to egg roll an opponent....it's not that good of an option, unless it's a surprise attack for following too closely.
Also, remember that we do have DownB and Uair as options (great options at this matchup). Nair has a little option since it has good horizontal knockback. And Dsmash is quick (one of the quickest attacks that has very low startup lag), while it may not become a good option until later in the match, it's there.
Oh yeah, if you're knocked horizontally by Yoshi (I wouldn't count on this much), you'll be expecting resistance from Yoshi as far away from the ledge as possible.
Edit: dang I'm slow......BTW, there are small spots that Yoshi can attack with a Bair. If Yoshi can bait a Fair from you, can I know that Yoshi's Bair can get in cause the Fair is that quick.
Dbl Edit: Egg lay is a good move to stop your approaching too. Granted we have to land it. =P
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Fair does not have lag when auto cancelled, which it should be. I say 65-35. If Marth plays smart, he should have no problem in this fight, meaning correct spacing and not too many mistakes. I seem to recall that all of Yoshi's best kill moves are laggy, meaning if Marth can stay defensive at higher damage percents, he can live for a long time. Marth can kill Yoshi easier than vice versa, because of his aerial killer and gimping possibilities. Regarding gimping, Yoshi CANNOT get hit to far to one side while off stage because he will die, and because Marth is a good gimper normally, this should not be too big of a problem, so Marth if he plays smart like he should all the time, should win this fairly easily.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
There isnt much a Yoshi can do to keep Marth from approaching, that is my point here. I suppose can bair to try and keep Marth out. He will most likely run away if threatened and reset his spacing. If Marth can get in tip range of Yoshi, Yoshi has little to no options.
First off, Marth wont be spamming any smashes at anytime, its not very wise lol. Marths dtilt beats everything Yoshi really has. All Yoshi can do is retreat or roll behind Marth (Bad decision). A good Marth will bait an aerial after you he dtilts and ftilt your aerial. The ground and air is covered by two simple moves and Yoshi cannot beat either of them. Not to mention that you will punished for EVERYTHING with Dancing blade, and Yoshi is fairly heavy, so he will be able to take more down variation at lower percents.
Also uair is a good kill move for Yoshi, however it will be very difficult to hit a grounded Marth with that move. You can bait an air dodge and uair however. Otherwise it doesnt help much. No good Marth will run in fairing you to death.
Egg lay is good, but if spot dodged, your gonna take a hit. Its a risky move.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
I'm not objecting to this. What you SAID, however, was this:
And I can't picture on single situation (except edge guarding) in which Yoshi is going to go on the offensive, let alone approach.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Well, Yoshis do approach with Bair and trixies, but at the end of the day, there's not much Yoshi can do to get into Marth's Fair and Dtilt zoning, and Marth has better edgeguarding than Yoshi IMO.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
I guess I mistyped what I meant. lol
Yoshi will play defensive, Marth will play defensive. Marth's Defense > Yoshi's Defense.
Marth can switch to slight offense anytime as well. Yoshi is shut down by Marths Defense.
Yoshi has hardly any options. Yoshi is gonna have to camp. Meaning a Patience will be key for Marth.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
It's a really sloppy, clumsy move for a Yoshi to approach against Marth (unless the Marth player is observably bad). Back air is relatively decent to use against Marth on a retreat, and back air is certainly a good approach for Yoshi against other characters (especially projectile spammers), but it's not a good idea against Marth.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I guess it depends on how you look at it. I use it as a form of making Marth space incorrectly, just pull back and make him wiff.
I do better when there's generally examples on what he's doing. I have a hard time explaining universal stuff, but I know what to do in any given situation. Pivot Grabs can stop fast approaches (Dancing Blade) and his Fair, Egg's can deal with Marth well in the air, and Retreating Eggs help with spacing, while possibly opening him up for attack.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Pivot grab is great, but Dancing Blade isn't an approach, because it's not at all safe. It's a quick punisher, or follow up.
I don't think Pivot grab is fast enough to punish fair, but it might be. That's a reasonable argument worth looking into. Still, with retreating Fairs as well, that's not really enough to say that Yoshi can consistently penetrate Marth's defense.
I don't think Pivot grab is fast enough to punish fair, but it might be. That's a reasonable argument worth looking into. Still, with retreating Fairs as well, that's not really enough to say that Yoshi can consistently penetrate Marth's defense.
If Marth is standing outside his own and Yoshi's range by a character length or two.. I highly doubt you would be able to pivot grab a dash to dancing blade from Marth. Sometimes people can't even react fast enough to shield. Though this isn't meant to be used as an approach that often.
If we are zoning you with fairs and such an egg is very unsafe because Marth would be so close. That's like Falco trying to do a SHDL while being zoned by Marth. It doesn't work.
Retreating egg is good, because you want to GTFO of marth's range as soon as you can. But as I'm visualizing it, a dash to dancing blade will screw Yoshi over since he will be SH'ng backwards and throwing an egg in air. Marth crouches low to the ground as he dashes, i'm pretty sure DB will be able to punish a retreating egg attempt.
I'm honestly leaning towards 70:30 right now, but Yoshi boards must agree too.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
I don't see how a pivot grab could stop something that outranges it. And most Marth's will retreat their Fairs if they expect a shield grab or grab in general. Autocancelled Fair=>Jab can defeat this as well.
bigman40
Smash Master
Comments in bold. I'll edit it when I finish my Calc 2 homework.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
You could be right on that too Steel, but from Yoshi's perspective, if Marth is rushing in on me, I'd instantly pivot grab if I suspected Dancing Blade. However, with Fair in this game, since that goes over Yoshi's grab, it's not an adequate counter attack, even if it comes out fast enough/causes the first slice to miss.