Zelda
Do not discuss Sheik here, Zelda only.
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Match-Up Discussion #17! Zelda
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Do not discuss Sheik here, Zelda only.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Steel r we gonna do a shiek and zelda discussion?
Zelda's down b is amazing, it's game breaking at least.
In other news Zelda is god **** annoying, especially with the fact that the way you would normally space fairs against opponents can often get a lovely fair/bair whatever the **** kills you at like 30% going straight into your jaw.
In other news Zelda is god **** annoying, especially with the fact that the way you would normally space fairs against opponents can often get a lovely fair/bair whatever the **** kills you at like 30% going straight into your jaw.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Basically, zelda will punish you if you make mistakes. But if you play smart, you can with this match up just fine.
Her side-b WILL be over used if you're out of her range, but it's really easy to air dodge/SH air dodge. She won't be doing it when you get closer since it lags too much toward the end. If she tries to, SH air dodge to a tippered fair in her face.
Do NOT let her sweetspot her fair. Space accordingly. You have much better aerial movement, and much better range than her. Not to mention, your moves are much faster than hers. Unfortunatly, her moves will devastate you if you're careless.
Also, be wary when edge guarding of her up b. It has some surprising distance and even knock-back with it. But if you learn the general distance it travels and timing for it, you shouldn't have any problems with it.
And again, space properly. Even on the ground, her down b is a pain in the *** if she gets in close. If she tries to get close via the ground, dtilt or ftilt(she's slow enough that I find you can usually use this just fine)and keep her back. If she approaches via SH, ftilt or retreating fair. As for SH air dodge just to get in close and dodge your attack, grab her and put some distance between yourselves.
She's a pain in the *** to fight, and very aggravating because she can punish well if you give her the chance. But overall, Marth can take her on just fine.
Her side-b WILL be over used if you're out of her range, but it's really easy to air dodge/SH air dodge. She won't be doing it when you get closer since it lags too much toward the end. If she tries to, SH air dodge to a tippered fair in her face.
Do NOT let her sweetspot her fair. Space accordingly. You have much better aerial movement, and much better range than her. Not to mention, your moves are much faster than hers. Unfortunatly, her moves will devastate you if you're careless.
Also, be wary when edge guarding of her up b. It has some surprising distance and even knock-back with it. But if you learn the general distance it travels and timing for it, you shouldn't have any problems with it.
And again, space properly. Even on the ground, her down b is a pain in the *** if she gets in close. If she tries to get close via the ground, dtilt or ftilt(she's slow enough that I find you can usually use this just fine)and keep her back. If she approaches via SH, ftilt or retreating fair. As for SH air dodge just to get in close and dodge your attack, grab her and put some distance between yourselves.
She's a pain in the *** to fight, and very aggravating because she can punish well if you give her the chance. But overall, Marth can take her on just fine.
Zelda is easy imo, once you know how to fight her. Most of her move are ridiculously overpowered (especially her usmash) and are meant to finish off or punish - she isn't great at dealing dmg and dies in no time. Expect to shield a lot against her, since some of her move have surprisingly good range. Other than that, she isn't too tough. She's slow, can't rack up dmg (without overusing her smashes) and her recovery can be punished ver badly...
65:35 Marths favour
65:35 Marths favour
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Zelda is not that hard of a Matchup at all. Zelda can attempt to spam Dins Fire, however you can shad or shield it. Once you get within range you pretty much can fair, ftilt, dtilt, grab, nair, you name it. The worst place to be is on top of Zelda due to her overpowered up smash and up air. Her fsmash is also very strong but if you space correctly it shouldnt be a problem.
Similar to the spacies you can judge the landing point of Farore's Wind, (her up b). This is one of Zelda's biggest weaknesses, so exploit that. You can easily get off a up smash and KO at VERY early percents.
Fair and dtilt, dancing blade to punish, ftilt her short hop approaches and stay in front of her at tipper range.
I have also noticed that Zelda dies very early from a tipped utilt, it seems easier to sweetspot or something, maybe Im imagining things but its worth noting.
Also, she has possibly followups after her dtilt, which may lead to a KO so be aware of that. However Im pretty sure your dtilt beats hers.
65:35 Marth is my opinion on the Matchup.
Similar to the spacies you can judge the landing point of Farore's Wind, (her up b). This is one of Zelda's biggest weaknesses, so exploit that. You can easily get off a up smash and KO at VERY early percents.
Fair and dtilt, dancing blade to punish, ftilt her short hop approaches and stay in front of her at tipper range.
I have also noticed that Zelda dies very early from a tipped utilt, it seems easier to sweetspot or something, maybe Im imagining things but its worth noting.
Also, she has possibly followups after her dtilt, which may lead to a KO so be aware of that. However Im pretty sure your dtilt beats hers.
65:35 Marth is my opinion on the Matchup.
As mentioned Din's fire is not hard to avoid.
Zelda thrives on punishing your mistakes, so try and play a little extra smart in this match up. If you do make a mistake, if you are quick enough you can smash DI out of the up smash and fsmash too i believe.
She can't really do anything once you are up close and set up your zoning. Marth outranges her and is much quicker.
Probably 65:35 or 60:40
Zelda thrives on punishing your mistakes, so try and play a little extra smart in this match up. If you do make a mistake, if you are quick enough you can smash DI out of the up smash and fsmash too i believe.
She can't really do anything once you are up close and set up your zoning. Marth outranges her and is much quicker.
Probably 65:35 or 60:40
Nibbity
Smash Journeyman
I completely agree that zelda is annoying as Shaya has said. Her air attacks are surprisingly powerful, but I think her lack of speed is what gets her the most. You can outrange a lot of her attacks, I know she can't beat your SB, even with magic, and you can outrun her, and quickly walk and shield her dins fire as stated above. I still would like to know more about her B, because it's probably more helpful to you now, since it would give her a small shield and reflect projectiles, but it was pretty laggy.
∫unk
Smash Master
Sheik is really easy to gimp imo no kill moves
feardragon64
Smash Champion
lol junk
And steel's right about smash DI'ing out of the usmash. Only I have run into a problem where if they usmash a little early and you run into it half way through you actually can't smash DI out of the knockback....but this should not happen since you should see it coming a mile away if they do it early >>
But yes, I'd say 65:35 Marth is a good estimate. I honestly would have made it 70:30 if it weren't for the fact that Zelda does have a few good setups(and all she really needs are a few...). One of which was the dtilt as mentioned earlier.
And steel's right about smash DI'ing out of the usmash. Only I have run into a problem where if they usmash a little early and you run into it half way through you actually can't smash DI out of the knockback....but this should not happen since you should see it coming a mile away if they do it early >>
But yes, I'd say 65:35 Marth is a good estimate. I honestly would have made it 70:30 if it weren't for the fact that Zelda does have a few good setups(and all she really needs are a few...). One of which was the dtilt as mentioned earlier.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Not necessarily true. Zelda will be closing distance instead of throwing out near-useless Din's. This is how we deal with our approaching issues.
Yeah... Marth's faster for sure. But... just saying here... Zelda's only poor in mobility, not attack speed. Her slowest attacks are Fsmash, uair, and I think utilt... but they aren't really "slow" attacks either. They do have some lag on the end of them though. I'm just saying that her attacks do come out surprisingly fast... well, a lot of them do.
What? Do you mean Neutral B? Down B = Sheik.
I don't get why everyone says she's bad at dealing damage. In comparison to Sheik, she loses out on racking damage. Alone, it's very, very easy to rack damage with her. Usmash isn't meant to finish off. It's meant to punish and rack up damage. Same with Nayru's. Fsmash and ftilt... both can be used for racking damage or for killing. I usually assign a role for both moves. Sometimes, it's best to use one move or the other for fighting up close depending on the opponent. Nevertheless, both hit hard and are rarely meant to kill on their own. The main thing you need to watch out for, especially starting at around 60%, is her dtilt lock, but I am not 100% sure if Marth is affected by it or if his annoying Dolphin Slash can get him out of it. If it can, then good, just hope you don't trip. If it can't... then you're looking at easily getting into the 100s for this and then a Dsmash ending (or maybe ftilt/Fsmash, but Dsmash is my favorite). As for Dsmash... I believe it's the fastest smash in this fight, as it comes out on frame 5. Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't get hit by it, because it has an annoying trajectory.
All aerials can kill (nair kills much later obviously, and it depends on positioning). All aerials can also rack up damage. Generally speaking, if you see that you can land a sweetspotted aerial with Zelda, go for it. The damage is nice for the most part. Fresh fair/bair do around 21%. They kill Marth pretty early on, too. The main downside to her aerials is that they don't do much if she misses the sweetspot. Many people see this as very, very bad for Zelda, but really, to me, it's the same as landing any other type of sweetspot. No aerial does anything if it just doesn't connect with the opponent, save G&W's uair. That said, you're not going to try to fair/bair someone for 3% when you could use nair instead for an infinitely better attack.
Her throws are all strong. They all do at least 10% fresh. B-throw kills at moderate-high damage... I'm thinking 140% from the middle of FD, but I'm not on my Wii, so this is probably not as accurate as I want it to be. Watch for any follow-ups that d-throw can lead into. Fthrow can also kill, but it's not really used too much. I just use it to throw my opponent off-stage. Uthrow is my least used, as it isn't a reliable move for setting up anything. I just use it for free damage and when I want to attempt a U___.
Her mobility is terrible, agreed, but again, I just don't want people to think that she's "heavyweight slow." As in, it's just her mobility that is bad, not her attack speed.
I would contest this. I am pretty sure that Zelda has a much, much harder time vs. lingering hitboxes that keep someone safe vs. "quick" hits up close that come out and go away in a flash. She's still got the basics down to deal with anyone's attacks. She doesn't fall apart in close range combat on the ground. That's her home.
All of her moves work better the closer you are to her, save Din's and maybe Fsmash. If you're not keeping a wall of some sort against her, then you're not really stopping her from doing anything up close. What can Marth do, throw out aerials in a defensive manner? I just throw out Din's and detonate as soon as the aerial's hitbox is gone. Even if I miss, I won't get punished because chances are, a defensive person isn't approaching me. If Marth is going on the offensiive with his attacks, then you're stepping even further into her home turf by eliminating approaching issues and you're making her attacks safer to pull off for the most part.
I won't go past 60:40 Marth for this fight. The fact of the matter is that while people see Zelda as ridiculously light, I also see Marth as being just as light here. Her moves, overall, kill almost as early as Marth's tippered attacks (read, below 100% when fresh, unless Marth DIs properly and we're not talking ftilt or Fsmash from one end of FD to the other). Pretty sure her lightning kicks are some of the earliest killing aerials in the game, not counting meteors. Racking up damage isn't hard with Zelda at all, and that said, she doesn't need that much damage to kill Marth. Poor mobility is a pain for her, but if Marth is approaching (which he usually will be anyway because people just naturally try to overwhelm seemingly slow characters), then that's pretty much negated, and you're now left to contend with her (fast!) attacks. Not to mention, I don't see Marth is overbearingly difficult for anyone to edgeguard, not even Zelda, but I'm sure that you've heard that line before.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
I haven't played a zelda like that, but I'll take your word for it.
In comparison to marth, they're pretty sluggish. Especially in the air, it's not too hard to air dodge or beat zelda to the hit(if you're spaced correctly with marth)
Er ya...I had a long day >>
Dolphin slash has invincibility until frame 5 so Marth should be safe on the dtilt to dsmash. Not to mention Marth's dtilt outranges Zelda's by a lot. But thanks for pointing it out.
But that means that her range is shortened a lot. I'd use falcon's knee for example. It has a very small hitbox now, but the knockback is still pretty awesome. Still, it's not considered a great move anymore because it's so hard to hit with. Same thing here, only to a lesser extent. And ya, I agree with out. Zelda doesn't have too much trouble racking in damage since she only needs a few hits. But at the same time, Marth has a lot of tools to postpone those few hits from happening, since they're usually only for punishing mistakes. Dolphin slash, air dodge, fair, bair, dtilt, even shieldbreaker if you're careful with it. Range is one of his best weapons and even if Zelda has some moves that aren't quite booser slow, they are still slow in comparison to Marth. That in combination with smaller hitboxes less range, and not being disjointeds like Marth's tilt this way in Marth's favor.
Fair enough. I can't argue too much with a throw other than don't get grabbed.
The thing is she might have a few faster attacks, but it's more just the comparison between Marth and Zelda as I've said 1000 times already in this post. She may not be booser slow, but she's still very slow compared to Marth.
This I have to disagree with you on. Zelda cannot compete with Marth at mid-close range. Understand Marth does not fight at close range. He fights at the tip of his sword. Not grab distance. Even if Zelda throws out attacks before hand, they come out slow and can be avoided. After that the lag is bad enough that Marth can simply punish her. Once she's in the air, it's Marth's game because her reach is shortened when she's in the air.
Zelda has the major problem that her fast attacks are short ranged and her longer ranged attacks are slow and have after-lag. That's ultimately her biggest downfall here in my opinion.
Marth is harder to edgeguard than people give him credit for. The first hit of dancing blade is a great stall so actuall edgehogging is a bit more difficult, and the invincibility frames on dolphin slash make it even more difficult. Zelda has din's fire which I agree is problematic, but in a worst case scenario Marth will get hit upwards and has a better chance to recover. So Zelda might have an advantageous position while edgeguarding, but it's a bit harder to result in death at earlier percentages(unless Marth is high enough in damage to do a star K.O.)
I'm sticking with 65:35.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
65:35 Marth's Favor
Watch out for Din's Fire, space accordingly, watch out for her recoveries knockback (i've been stage spiked once) , and finally, her smashes. Not too demanding right?
Watch out for Din's Fire, space accordingly, watch out for her recoveries knockback (i've been stage spiked once) , and finally, her smashes. Not too demanding right?
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Her B is very annoying as a mixup... And Din's Fire is a great move. I hate Usmash, so if you are above Zelda, which you should try not to be, make sure you air-dodge.
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
I agree this match-up should be about 65:35 but including gimp's it would be 70:30 marth's favor
If Zelda is forced to recover low, it's really unfavorable for her since she has nearly no horizontal DI from her ascend via Farore's Wind. Make sure to edgehog her if she's forced to do so.
Also, anyone know the exact DI directions to get out of the Fsmash and Usmash?
For Fsmash, I tap up on direction pad, and side on C-stick, and that sometimes works...
Do tell, lol.
And yes, I've never fought a Zelda that didn't try to Din's Fire you instead of closing into you. There are some that do both, but usually it's the former (Din's Fire spam).
Also, anyone know the exact DI directions to get out of the Fsmash and Usmash?
For Fsmash, I tap up on direction pad, and side on C-stick, and that sometimes works...
Do tell, lol.
And yes, I've never fought a Zelda that didn't try to Din's Fire you instead of closing into you. There are some that do both, but usually it's the former (Din's Fire spam).
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Relatively easy matchup IMO:
-Watch out for dins fire, shield, roll, or airdodge it
-Don't go above her, ever. Usmash, Utilt, and Uair are all really good
-You outrange her, so just space well and it should come naturally
-She is so easy to gimp, just fair her while she is in her Up B animation
-Dtilt works wonders here
6:4 Marth
-Watch out for dins fire, shield, roll, or airdodge it
-Don't go above her, ever. Usmash, Utilt, and Uair are all really good
-You outrange her, so just space well and it should come naturally
-She is so easy to gimp, just fair her while she is in her Up B animation
-Dtilt works wonders here
6:4 Marth
not really much to discuss here,
ill leave it at 65:35
ill leave it at 65:35
RedPeppers
Smash Ace
Has anyone here tried spamming Din's Fire before? Honestly it's not a hard to hit with as you say. You need to vary the timing to keep shields and airdodge's offguard. I believe the farther away it gets from Zelda it increases in range. Sometimes you want to release to hit with the front of the hit box, sometimes you can bait a reaction and release it behind them. I know Marth's speed cuts down drastically on how much it can be used, but if you make a mistake, or end up at a large enough distance Zelda will start nailing you. Just wanted to throw that out there, not saying it completely changes the match-up or anything.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
I might be wrong about Fsmash, but I know Usmash you tap up. I think it works the same way for Fsmash. You could just test it out in training mode or something(my roomate is in my room getting some so I can't test it out for ya =\)
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Arrrg.... marth is annoying. he barely outranges zelda... but that barely is what it takes to sway the battle to his favour... though it's so slight that if his spacing isn't perfect he could be right in zelda's range, or whiff his attack and leave himelf open to follow up. he's one of the few charcters blessed enough not to have to try to wade through her defensive fortress of range and priority to make contact.
also... on the flip side, Zelda doesn;t ahev trouble racking up damage as you people said... and, also, don't forget the enorumos kill power of her uair and the respecatable kill power of her utilt.... anyway the problem for her is mainly just landing that killblow... not a problem having one fresh.
as for the exact value of the matchup.... it'd probably be even if marth didn't have that **** fair that gives him about the safest poke he could ever ask for... it protects him from zelda's air game and allows him to approach on the ground without being eaten by zelda's smashes.
I say 60:40 marth... no more, no less.
also... on the flip side, Zelda doesn;t ahev trouble racking up damage as you people said... and, also, don't forget the enorumos kill power of her uair and the respecatable kill power of her utilt.... anyway the problem for her is mainly just landing that killblow... not a problem having one fresh.
as for the exact value of the matchup.... it'd probably be even if marth didn't have that **** fair that gives him about the safest poke he could ever ask for... it protects him from zelda's air game and allows him to approach on the ground without being eaten by zelda's smashes.
I say 60:40 marth... no more, no less.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
True for the most part... but Zelda isn't meant to be in the air for the most part, especially not against Marth. If she's jumping at you, then do whatever it takes to attack her. Just don't get hit by uair or a lightning kick, because that usually means death if you have moderate damage.
Eh... ease of landing it in Melee <<<< practicing it in Brawl and getting the easy range down and then just learning to land it just like you would land it in Melee, because the payoff is definitely much higher this time around. I don't think there was a chance in hell that she could get you to 100% and then get a fresh kick off; you'd have to not use one kick if you wanted a fresh one. In Brawl, it's more like, "Fight normally and then when you kick, -1 stock." It's not EXACTLY like that, but you get my point, right? Zelda's kicks this time around kill MUCH earlier, so they're not really any worse. The Knee isn't as good because the knockback doesn't seem changed at all. Nonetheless, they're not great moves if you can't land them.
Actually, D-anything aside, Zelda's attacks are all disjointed. Ftilt and utilt appear jointed, but if you were to try and attack her through the moves and if you were using something like a jointed aerial or a sword attack (depending on what move you're attacking here), you'd find that they're actually jointed. Utilt probably doesn't appear to be disjointed because Marth is using a sword, so I guess it's a moot point here... but yeah, those are disjointed. Fsmash and Usmash are also disjointed. Her kicks are just like her magical tilts - they're *barely* disjointed moves. Nair is disjointed and has invincibility start-up (so don't try to attack her right before the hitboxes come out, unless you are safe from nair), and uair is a huge explosion overhead. All of her B moves are disjointed.
Less ranged than Marth's moves? Yeah.
Alright.
Fair enough. I see where you're coming from now. Marth is MID-close. Zelda is CLOSE. That's where our differences came in. Marth doesn't want to fight close, but Zelda does, since that's where she's best at. Mid-close is a different story.
Do you mean like... when Marth is approaching, she throws out attacks? Again, what most Zeldas do (or should be doing, like I do) is work past that tipper range and then get in where she stands a better chance. Throwing out attacks to stop anyone with a sword is generally a bad idea.
I don't really know Marth all that well, but dtilt, Dancing Blade, and utilt (I think?) aside, what ground-based moves does Marth have that lag significantly less than Zelda's? She is definitely slower than Marth, but I just don't see what other moves she has that make her lag super slow compared to Marth. As for aerials, I think your fair has significantly less lag than her kicks do... but what else? I'm not really that knowledgeable about Marth.
I throw out Din's at someone who just happens to use neutral B to get in close. If they don't try it, I believe that Din's will outprioritize the first slash of Dancing Blade. (Also, I know it can be used in recovery, but I want to say that it just gives him distance once and then it does nothing but stall. What exactly does it do for Marth when used multiple times?) I also use it when someone is below the stage and jumping out to attack them isn't viable. I NEVER throw out Din's when the hit will prevent the opponent from dying. I only throw it out for free damage and to keep them from grabbing the ledge and instead having to contend with my Up-whatever.
Once he's in Up B distance, just run off the stage and DI towards the edge. If he can't make it on stage, then he'll die unless the opponent mistimes it like you said. Again, I dunno how many times Dancing Blade can be used to stall. Really, the main thing that puts Marth down there is Dsmash, so as long as you don't get Dsmashed, you shouldn't have this problem too often unless you want to go low.
Eh... I say 60:40 at worst still. Don't think I could push for 55:45, not with that terrible mobility.
What are you talking about? You need to include gimps regardless. Marth can gimp Zelda and Zelda can gimp Marth.
On WiFi, I screw up and get put in this position and I just hope that my opponent messes up and tries to hog too early so I can hit them off the ledge. In real life, unless an actual attack puts me down there, I am *never* in that position. Besides dair, what else puts her in a position where she can only grab the ledge?
Nebar.
That's horrible. If WiFi wasn't a serious pain, I would play more Marths so I could see how you guys fight. I've beaten every Marth that I've been to tourney with so far, but a lot of them, in my opinion, could've been better. I don't know how I'm gonna find a good Marth to play without resorting to WiFi. The main thing I'd want to do is show you a different way to use Zelda (the non Din's spammy way + mindgaming to try and reduce predictability).
This is true, but I only throw out Din's maybe once just so my opponent will start closing the gap for me. Then I go to my opponent to fight.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Eh. Everything has been said already.
60/40 or 65/35 at worst.
60/40 or 65/35 at worst.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
...
*begs for 60/40 just because lots others have 60/40*
Pleeeease?
*begs for 60/40 just because lots others have 60/40*
Pleeeease?
Wolfric
Smash Journeyman
I guess as separate players that matchup would be right for you, but, you seem to forget...it's the same character? At least against marth I rack up damaged then swap to Zelda, and it seems to work pretty well, you have to look at it in many point of views, Zelda/Sheik are the same, even thought they have diferent forums.
That's just my opinion.
That's just my opinion.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
^Even if you look at it that way, the fact is you fight each of them separately. The time it takes to change is enough that you're not going to be switching between the two constantly. In the end you're going to fight Sheik as you fight Sheik, and Zelda as you fight Zelda.
zelda has a much harder time killing marth than sheik does.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
SDI Fsmash up and in to escape, SDI Usmash up to escape (Marth actually escapes from her Usmash very easily which is annoying).
Not much to say really, play smart and Marth will win.
Not much to say really, play smart and Marth will win.
Wolfric
Smash Journeyman
Sheik racks up damage, Zelda is a killer, there are MANY ways to swap btw them in the middle of a fight, one very common is when Zelda/Sheik is sent flying, at least that\s the way I've done and have done good against Marths, thought of course, it depends on the players, but I really don't see a big disadvantage of Sheik/Zelda vs Marth
did you read my post? >_> zelda has no place in this match up if sheik is available
Doomblaze
Smash Journeyman
Why did we rez this thread?
And why are we talking about how shiek does better vs marth than zelda in the zelda matchup discussion?
Zelda's got nothing on marth, i dont think anythings really changed...
And why are we talking about how shiek does better vs marth than zelda in the zelda matchup discussion?
Zelda's got nothing on marth, i dont think anythings really changed...
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Zelda isnt hard even with her projectile ,because even though its not need in this match-up abusing ur tip helps alot.
Don't bump these threads unless you have something that can actually contribute.
Shadowblazen
Smash Cadet
DI'ing out of Zelda's smashes
A) You get caught in Zelda's f-smash. In order to get out of it, you need to DI straight up. Sometimes this alone will be enough to get you out. However, I also recommend that you SDI straight up as it helps even more. The sooner you start DI + SDI'ing straight up after you get caught in her f-smash the easier it is to get out of it. If your reaction speed is too slow you won't escape. It is slightly easier to escape if you were jumping right before getting caught in her f-smash and slightly harder to escape if you were falling to the ground right before (compared to as if you were standing on the ground). If you do manage to escape her f-smash, you will end up in 1 of 3 places. Either you'll #1. fly over Zelda and end up behind her and facing away from her (slightly further than the distance of Marth's f-smash), or #2. you'll float upwards and slightly away from her, or #3. you'll float upwards and slightly toward her (this last outcome is very unlikely compared to the other two, however if this happens it is guarenteed that you can punish Zelda). As far as I can tell these outcomes are random, but if they weren't then my guess would be it depends on the exact spacing or possibly what damage % Marth has. Note that in outcome #1 you suffer quite a bit of hitstun as you go flying over and behind Zelda. In outcomes #2 and #3 you suffer much less hitstun. In #3 you can and should punish her, but in #2 you cannot punish her. In outcome #1 you cannot really punish her either, but throwing out a B-reversed shieldbreaker as you land is a great option to keep in mind.
B) You get caught in Zelda's up-smash. Now, escaping Zelda's up-smash is a much more difficult and complicated matter than escaping her f-smash. For one thing, you will need an even faster reaction speed. For another, her up-smash has a strong gravity effect which actually draws you into the attack in a downward/upward motion until the final hit which has the knockback, as opposed to her f-smash which acts to push you away from Zelda. Having said that, the best way to escape Zelda's up-smash is to DI + SDI straight up again. Sometimes, you will absolutely not be able to escape because the gravity effect will pull you downward too much. Also, if you were in the air when you got caught in her up-smash it's slightly harder to get out than if you were standing on the ground. If you didn't start DI'ing immediately it's a lot harder to get out and that's why I said you need even better reaction speed than you would to escape her up-smash. Also be aware that if you're at a high percent, you might just be helping to kill yourself by DI'ing up if you don't manage to escape. If you do escape, you will always end up above Zelda. It's POSSIBLE to escape by DI'ing / SDI'ing in other directions, e.g. diagonally upward, but very highly unlikely compared to if you DI + SDI straight up. And in that case you will still always end up above Zelda. If you do manage to DI out of Zelda's up-smash, you can and should punish her (I would recommend u-air or dolphin slash as you fall down next to her during the ending animation of her up-smash)
Some more notes about Zelda's f-smash:
1. While it has some start up lag, it has very little ending lag (up-smash is the opposite, it starts up quickly but has noticable ending lag).
2. If shielded, Zelda's f-smash will cause you to slide backwards quite a bit. This might cause you to whiff with DS OoS in which case you will eat a lightning kick to the face.
3. Zelda can stutter-step very far on her f-smash. It's one of her best spacing tricks and it can mess up your spacing if you're not careful.
Notes about Zelda's d-tilt:
1. It's not a lock. There are numerous ways to escape it, the simplest being to hold the shield button (and then DS OoS of course). However, most Zelda's know about this and will simply d-tilt > d-smash as soon as you demonstrate the ability to escape her d-tilt "lock."
2. If fresh, her d-tilt will pop you into the air when you're around 90+%. If her d-tilt is stale, it won't pop you into the air until slightly higher percents.
3. If it does pop you into the air, it's her best set up. Expect her to follow it up with an up-smash as the most likely option (and be ready to DI out of it as I previously explained how).
Otherwise I don't really have anything to say about this match up that hasn't already been covered. I personally think that this is a 60/40 match up. I'm a mid-level player fairly new to smashboards and I main both Marth and Zelda by the way, though my Marth is better. Most of my actual experience with this match up is from Zelda's perspective however.
Yes, this is in essence correct. I did some more testing and I can expand upon this a bit with certainty. I tested in multiplayer not training mode, so as to take stale moves into account. Having tested this hundreds of times for both f-smash and up-smash, I conclude that stale moves don't have any effect though. Anyways, here's what I came up with:
A) You get caught in Zelda's f-smash. In order to get out of it, you need to DI straight up. Sometimes this alone will be enough to get you out. However, I also recommend that you SDI straight up as it helps even more. The sooner you start DI + SDI'ing straight up after you get caught in her f-smash the easier it is to get out of it. If your reaction speed is too slow you won't escape. It is slightly easier to escape if you were jumping right before getting caught in her f-smash and slightly harder to escape if you were falling to the ground right before (compared to as if you were standing on the ground). If you do manage to escape her f-smash, you will end up in 1 of 3 places. Either you'll #1. fly over Zelda and end up behind her and facing away from her (slightly further than the distance of Marth's f-smash), or #2. you'll float upwards and slightly away from her, or #3. you'll float upwards and slightly toward her (this last outcome is very unlikely compared to the other two, however if this happens it is guarenteed that you can punish Zelda). As far as I can tell these outcomes are random, but if they weren't then my guess would be it depends on the exact spacing or possibly what damage % Marth has. Note that in outcome #1 you suffer quite a bit of hitstun as you go flying over and behind Zelda. In outcomes #2 and #3 you suffer much less hitstun. In #3 you can and should punish her, but in #2 you cannot punish her. In outcome #1 you cannot really punish her either, but throwing out a B-reversed shieldbreaker as you land is a great option to keep in mind.
B) You get caught in Zelda's up-smash. Now, escaping Zelda's up-smash is a much more difficult and complicated matter than escaping her f-smash. For one thing, you will need an even faster reaction speed. For another, her up-smash has a strong gravity effect which actually draws you into the attack in a downward/upward motion until the final hit which has the knockback, as opposed to her f-smash which acts to push you away from Zelda. Having said that, the best way to escape Zelda's up-smash is to DI + SDI straight up again. Sometimes, you will absolutely not be able to escape because the gravity effect will pull you downward too much. Also, if you were in the air when you got caught in her up-smash it's slightly harder to get out than if you were standing on the ground. If you didn't start DI'ing immediately it's a lot harder to get out and that's why I said you need even better reaction speed than you would to escape her up-smash. Also be aware that if you're at a high percent, you might just be helping to kill yourself by DI'ing up if you don't manage to escape. If you do escape, you will always end up above Zelda. It's POSSIBLE to escape by DI'ing / SDI'ing in other directions, e.g. diagonally upward, but very highly unlikely compared to if you DI + SDI straight up. And in that case you will still always end up above Zelda. If you do manage to DI out of Zelda's up-smash, you can and should punish her (I would recommend u-air or dolphin slash as you fall down next to her during the ending animation of her up-smash)
Some more notes about Zelda's f-smash:
1. While it has some start up lag, it has very little ending lag (up-smash is the opposite, it starts up quickly but has noticable ending lag).
2. If shielded, Zelda's f-smash will cause you to slide backwards quite a bit. This might cause you to whiff with DS OoS in which case you will eat a lightning kick to the face.
3. Zelda can stutter-step very far on her f-smash. It's one of her best spacing tricks and it can mess up your spacing if you're not careful.
Notes about Zelda's d-tilt:
1. It's not a lock. There are numerous ways to escape it, the simplest being to hold the shield button (and then DS OoS of course). However, most Zelda's know about this and will simply d-tilt > d-smash as soon as you demonstrate the ability to escape her d-tilt "lock."
2. If fresh, her d-tilt will pop you into the air when you're around 90+%. If her d-tilt is stale, it won't pop you into the air until slightly higher percents.
3. If it does pop you into the air, it's her best set up. Expect her to follow it up with an up-smash as the most likely option (and be ready to DI out of it as I previously explained how).
Otherwise I don't really have anything to say about this match up that hasn't already been covered. I personally think that this is a 60/40 match up. I'm a mid-level player fairly new to smashboards and I main both Marth and Zelda by the way, though my Marth is better. Most of my actual experience with this match up is from Zelda's perspective however.