Match-Up Discussion #8! Pit

Pit​

Go ^_^

Sweet, first post. I personally don't know too much about this matchup, but it seems to me that once you get around his arrows, he isn't too hard to beat. Also, since he doesn't get his Up B back if he is hit out of it, if you don't let him go under the stage, you can gimp him if you knock him away and he loses his jumps. Yoshi's island is a good stage for preventing him going under the stage.

Hm, as a Pit main, I have a lot of trouble with Marth. It seems like Pit's range = Marth's range without the tipper, so a lot of the times Marth's can just space themselves outside of Pit's ftilt range and fsmash. Arrow spam isn't too hard to avoid if you're a good player.

Idk how to play Pit. I mean I don't play any decent Pit mainers in general, but he doesn't seem like a really popular character anymore.

He has some strange techs which I never bothered to look into really deeply. One's a wingpush where he uses his upB and utilizes the "push" effect to push an opponent as a setup or retreat tactic, deflect projectiles?? (not sure about that one), and some more specific stuff.

There is also arrow looping or whatever you call it. And good Pit players can make it loop out of your sight and still hit you which I think is a sick skill.

Their shield (downB) can be used to reverse your recovery like Mario's cape and has some strange properties, SA frames I believe? (again correct me if I'm wrong) and some others. His sideB can reflect projectiles but since we don't have one nothing to worry about.

I'm pretty sure Marth ***** a Pit in an aerial battle if he utilizes his range. Not sure about the ground but I believe its the same story.

But wow I just realized now that I never played Pit's as much as I thought I would. I mean he was really popular in the beginning but now.... I guess I just live in a Pit deprived area.

isn't it gimp city for pit's trying to recover using B up in a way...assuming there are standards, I suppose you could use a weak attack to knock pit back so he won't get too high before he needs to fly. If anyone understands me.

3xSwords said:

But wow I just realized now that I never played Pit's as much as I thought I would. I mean he was really popular in the beginning but now.... I guess I just live in a Pit deprived area.

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Everyone assumed Pit was ridiculously good and top tier when they first got their hands on Brawl, but he really isn't. He's definitely above average, but he's not as spectacular as everyone initially thought, and it's not easy to win with him at all (at least not against skilled players). I don't really know of any tourney winning Pits actually...

/ramble

My brother mains Pit. This is a very good match-up for me.

Marth's Advantages:
Speed, Range, Power

Pit's Advantages:
Recovery, Projectiles, Edgeguarding

Perfect shield the arrows. Not hard, seriously.

Pit has a lot of good attacks with multi-hitboxes, and these are some of his best approaches (angel ring, , utilt, nair, uair, jab combo, fsmash, and usmash) These should be reacted to with Dolphin Slash out of shield often. It is an especially useful tool in this match-up, so learn it well.

Marth out- ranges Pit, so good spacing, and Dancing Blade pressure wins. Pit cannot really do much to Marth once Marth gets in, so keeping the pressure up is hyper important. Once off stage, challenge Pit in the air. Dancing Blade comes out faster than every single move pit has except his jab, and it matches it, in addition to out-ranging it, so it really is a good idea to spam it when you are not making him eat Dolphin Slash.

The most different thing about fighting Pit is edge-guarding, and getting edge-guarded. Pit can really chase Marth off the stage, due to being able to fly, so it is very important to utilize good DI. However, Marth can fend for himself, due to an outranging midair moveset. Use counter well, but don't get predictable, or you'll find yourself getting pointlessly hit by a back or forward air. More often than not, you should outright challange Pit in the air, even on your way back to the stage.

Edgeguarding Pit isn't hard. Pit's generally air-dodge liberally since they have godlike recovery, so you simply have to wait them out, and then punish. If a Pit catches onto this, then simply start edgeguarding more aggressively, and play appropriately. If a Pit begins gliding under the stage, simply rush to the other side of the stage, and stand in about fsmash tipper range. From here, it's regular edgeguarding (which I see a lot of Marth's screwing up, so I'll make a thread on this later).

The optimal situation is to get Pit to use Wings of Icarus. This will only happen if you're good enough to hit Pit out of his glide, which is probably only going to be done after two or so jumps (not all), and if you hit him at the startup, or counter. I personally like dropping below Pit, and using Uair.

Once Pit WoI's, I'm pretty sure Pit can't airdodge out of WoI, so be careful when you attack, and be accurate. Knowing they lack the ability to dodge, Pit's will avoid you, try to bait out an attack, and then punish. Often, they will try to fly up high enough away from the stage, and out of your range, so being quick is also important. Do note that when Pit uses Fair out of WoI, he lunges, and it outranges your Fair, so be careful. Don't forget that Dolphin Slash is an attack if you need to hit Pit out of WoI, if you can make it back to the stage, or you're up a stock. If you can't hit Pit before he makes it to the edge, but you can edgehog, please do so. It's better for Pit to edgecancel his WoI or Glide than to have to cancel it otherise.

The shield is too good against Pit. Really, the biggest mixup he has against your shield is a grab. Don't spam sidestep, just look for when Pit likes to grab, and react appropriately.

I'll see if I can post a good video of this match (I have one, but it's an LOL kinda thing, and my brother's Pit has become much better than this.)

Of course, I've have lots more information on the matchup than just the generally stuff I said here, so just ask me if you have any questions.

What is Pit's general playstyle once you get inside? Does he have pokes, combos, or anything to worry about?

I play Nezumi (DSF's gf for those wondering) and if you actively try to gimp her she'll either go really high or she'll glide super low to the other side of the stage so you can't get her.

Basically the way to stop this is to pick Yoshi's Story

Either way Pierce covered it pretty well. Get inside and ****.

ya, yoshi's story and also castle siege.

ike is solid said:

ya, yoshi's story and also castle siege.

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The statues in castle seige also prevent Pit from abusing projectiles at all. So thats another plus. Frigate may also be a good counterpick?

^good point, then castle siege is the best counter pick.

Also Lylat and Luigi's mansion is decent pick. If I'm right ( I'm pretty sure I'm wrong ._. ) when lylat tilts, when marth runs he can avoid arrow spam ( assuming they dont curve it ), as for Luigi's mansion pretty straight forward, pillars block arrows.

And the fact that you are in a small tight space makes Luigi's Mansion perfect for fair zoning.

I'd say this match-up is about 60:40 marth's favor one of my best friends main pit (Fear) he always places within the top 3-5. And we play on a regular basis. This match-up isn't too much of a problem just stay within two character spaces of pit and you should be fine.

Also in addition to this character thread and every other character thread there should be a section on what combo's work on each character.

No, there shouldn't be since what few combos exist are generic to all characters.

I say this match is more like 65/35 Marth's favor.

I mean honestly Pit can't fight Marth really. And his projectile isn't as good at containment as say Falco's, nor does he have a move to really limit Marth's approach. And Marth outdoes him in range, damage and knockback.

Pit has better recovery and is heavier, but he has no tools that really shut down Marth's offense or help him deal with Marth's rushdown.

Just to let you guys know we are going to be doing these discussions more often now, or as long as i think they need to be. We're done the tier ***** characters so these discussions will be a lot shorter im sure.

ok cool steel, i vote IC'S next.

yea luigi's mansion is the best CP for pit....but usually we strike it. so yoshi's i suppose but you guys seem to get some preconcieved idea about how we have to go under the stage to recover instead of treating it likes snakes recovery and go up high and airdodge on the way down.

fight danny (best pit ever) then discuss...i almost beat him but the timer was about to run out and i had more percentage so i got frantic and started chasing him...EPIC FAILUR...pit can fly

I would say 70/30 Marth's favor. As everyone's said before, get inside and Pit run's out of options way too quickly. Pit is very gimmicky(what with arrow loops and wing dashing, etc.) but it doesn't really come together when you have a more aggressive marth.

And for the annoying side-b spammers, shieldbreaker seems to work better for me than dtilt. Just throwing that out there.

P.S. ditto what ike said. IC would be nice since they're a pain when you come across a good one...

Wow, pit really is unpopular nowadays. That being said, he is an uber noob champion (flying, sparrows, and angel halo? nuff said). Easy win for marth. I superman through the arrows just to rub it in his face later when i kill him at 50% w/ a tipper. Just DI away from pits angel halo and shieldbreaker him. I reccomend going for a spike whenever the opportunity arises (yes this is possible). DB pit as much as you want while on the floor. If u need to approach, crouch and throw out a few d-tilts then if Pit gets wise and aims at you, then SHairdodge in close then swipe him with a fair or two. Seriously, you could win this match with DB, DS, and fair alone.

****, as knowledgable as I am about this match-up my mind always changes. I can't talk about Marth v. Pit anymore, my personal exp gets in the way.

Wouldn't experience help you?

You would think so.

Or maybe it was a bad loss that he doesn't want to talk about

Well, consider this:

If I have good match-up experience versus Pit because my brother mains him, my brother has good match-up experience versus Marth, because I main him. This creates a whole, deeper level metagame that we play Marth v. Pit, and is totally different then how you might ordinarily play the match-up.

Oh I understand what you mean.

O very understandable I know just what you mean

Pit is an extremely underrated and underused character.

There is no way this match is 65/35 in Marth's favour. I'd be willing to counterpick a Marth player with my Pit, LOL.

I feel for your tournament placing strategies Inui, i really do.

/semisarcasm

I've played the match both ways a lot. I don't see any big advantage going to either character. In fact, if I had to choose, I'd give Pit a slight advantage due to camping, having safer KO options, and killing Marth at lower damage.

What safer KO option than dolphin slash out of shield? Also Pit has 0 safe KO options against Marth. In order to even get the KO, he has to get within sword range. That alone is unsafe.

Pit is not at an advantage. He is at a disadvantage.

Marth is faster, has more range on his attacks, they kill about the same range (unless Marth gets a tip), better shield pressure, and much better punishment.

Pit is heavier, has a better recovery, and has reflectors. The reflectors are not actually used to reflect anything in this match, as Marth has 0 projectiles.

Pit is completely outranged by Marth in the air. He has 0 moves that outrange Marth there.

On the ground the only thing that outranges Marth is the arrows. Once close enough, arrows are no longer a viable option, and Pit is very susceptible to Marth's spacing game.

Marth can simply stand out of Pit's reach, and use zoning moves like dtilt or ftilt, and then punish mistakes with dancing blade. Pit's only response to this is to change the spacing (either get out of Marth's range and continue arrows spam, or get inside of Marth's range). Getting inside Marth's range will prove difficult, even if both players are equally skilled, Marth simply has the tools to keep Pit out. Not to mention any shield pressure attempts on Marth are practically meaningless due to dolphin slash. Running away to arrow spam is the other choice, and Marth can just chase Pit down again.

Basically once Marth is done with the rushdown and has gotten to his ideal spacing, Pit is hard pressed to do anything, whereas Marth has a plethora of options.

This matchup is definitely in Marth's favor, 60/40 at least.

I think the only way you are gonna get K.O.ed by pit is if you screw up and eat a bair, uair, or fair to the face. Since ur range in the air > pits range, this scenario should be unlikely (plus, u can just counter whenever pit approaches in the air). Pit has nothing that is difficult to navigate around (minus angel halo) so marth simply has to play according to what pit does and he will win. An easy (if u play smart) 60-40 marth.

bludhoundz said:

What safer KO option than dolphin slash out of shield? Also Pit has 0 safe KO options against Marth. In order to even get the KO, he has to get within sword range. That alone is unsafe.

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Missing that dolphin slash = you get *****. It doesn't hit until frame 5 and shields come out in 2 frames. Do the math.

It's not unsafe to approach Marth, otherwise he'd be S tier instead of A tier. Marth has many unsafe moves that he must use to get kills, and that is when Pit can punish with a KO move.

Pit is not at an advantage. He is at a disadvantage.

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Yes, because there are a lot of good Pit players to judge this off of and we really understand what Pit is capable of.

Oh, wait, there are none.

Marth is faster, has more range on his attacks, they kill about the same range (unless Marth gets a tip), better shield pressure, and much better punishment.

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lol, they don't kill at the same range. Pit's b-air will kill Marth at under 100% unless it's at the middle of FD or something extreme like that. Pit's undimished f-smash almost does the same. Unless Marth gets tippers, Pit will be living to higher percents constantly.

Pit's shield pressure is better.

-N-air on the top of a shield ***** shields and is nearly unpunishable if you land to u-tilt, which at that point is a guaranteed shieldstab
-U-air through a platform ***** shields
-ARROWS are safe on block because you should be at a distance when using them
-Pit's f-smash can hit Marth just out of range of f-b, u-b, and jab, and it doesn't have enough recovery time to punish with f-smash or f-tilt.
-Pit's f-air on the top of people's shields is less punishable than Marth's because he is floatier and can jump away after the move better.

Pit is heavier, has a better recovery, and has reflectors. The reflectors are not actually used to reflect anything in this match, as Marth has 0 projectiles.

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Wrong.

If Marth does <insert anything>, especially his laggy smashes, Pit can use d-b to reverse it and then **** Marth. Marth can't even fight that well up close where he supposedly has this huge advantage if Pit players just used d-b properly.

Marth's invincible u-b? Doesn't matter. D-b will reflect Marth and gimp him. Pit can effortlessly edgeguard Marth.

Pit is completely outranged by Marth in the air. He has 0 moves that outrange Marth there.

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Arrows work in the air.

On the ground the only thing that outranges Marth is the arrows. Once close enough, arrows are no longer a viable option, and Pit is very susceptible to Marth's spacing game.

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-The moves Marth has that outrange Pit on the ground have too much recovery time to be spammed besides d-tilt.
-Pit's smashes both come out faster and have less recovery time than Marth's, making them far more usable overall.
-Once Marth gets close, pressing d-b reverses whatever he does, which is going to have enough recovery time to punish.

Marth can simply stand out of Pit's reach, and use zoning moves like dtilt or ftilt, and then punish mistakes with dancing blade. Pit's only response to this is to change the spacing (either get out of Marth's range and continue arrows spam, or get inside of Marth's range). Getting inside Marth's range will prove difficult, even if both players are equally skilled, Marth simply has the tools to keep Pit out. Not to mention any shield pressure attempts on Marth are practically meaningless due to dolphin slash. Running away to arrow spam is the other choice, and Marth can just chase Pit down again.

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Pit's don't approach. Marth can't force Pit to approach because Pit has arrows.

Pit has glide attack, which is huge and has high priority, so he can actually just glide at Marth and beat any of his moves a lot.

Getting inside Marth's range is much easier than the other way around. Marth has to work around a projectile and then not get hit by Pit's plethora of 4 or less frame moves that have an underestimated amount of range. Pit has to deal with fast moves with decent range, but he's not working around a projectile. Pit can just randomly f-b at Marth sometimes and it works.

Basically once Marth is done with the rushdown and has gotten to his ideal spacing, Pit is hard pressed to do anything, whereas Marth has a plethora of options.

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Pit's answer to Marth getting near him: Run away and shoot more arrows.

Then the cycle repeats, with Marth being put in the worse situation constantly.

Every character has trouble dealing with arrow spam, roll/dodge/jump when the person comes near you, <insert random super fast and hard to punish move>, repeat. Marth has extra trouble because his larger moves have lots of recovery time and he has projectile to spam back at Pit.

This matchup is definitely in Marth's favor, 60/40 at least.

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55/45 Pit.

Extremely campy character in a very campy game > character that has to attack to win.

Wow, solid post from Inui.

Um, there are other characters whom marth has to approach who have spammy stunny projectiles *cough* falco *cough*. In this match, marth can abuse counter because no one should be scared to get grabbed by pit (not like he has an infinite chain grab). Unless the pit is short or full hopping his sparrows, marth has multiple options to get around them. Also, it may just be me but pits arrows seem really laggy to me (i literally see pit pull back the bow in slow motion). I aim for a midway point where pit feels safe to spam arrows but i can reach him with a SHairdodge or SHdouble fair (fair the arrow, fair pit).My best friend mains pit and i have not problem approaching him and punishing. The glide attack is always met with a counter or u-smash.

That being said, i do think this match CAN be close. However, im leaning towards marth because i have yet to see a pit **** marth in the last 6 months and i dont see pit as a threat anymore when i face him.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Missing that dolphin slash = you get *****. It doesn't hit until frame 5 and shields come out in 2 frames. Do the math.

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Of course, however DS OoS is only to be used when your opponent is in a vulnerable position and cannot shield.

Sadaharu Inui said:

It's not unsafe to approach Marth, otherwise he'd be S tier instead of A tier. Marth has many unsafe moves that he must use to get kills, and that is when Pit can punish with a KO move.

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Why would Pit be approaching in this match anyway? Even then, if someone was to approach Marth he can keep them out and basically camp them with his sword, depending on the character.

Yes, Marth has no safe kill moves except for maybe tipper nair.. if you can even call that a kill move. But I'm sure you know Marth won't be just shoving out kill moves once Pit gets at a high %, he'll be smart about it.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Yes, because there are a lot of good Pit players to judge this off of and we really understand what Pit is capable of.

Oh, wait, there are none.

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Match Ups are determined by two top level players of equal skill, we are taking in all of both characters options and seeing what would happen on paper.

Sadaharu Inui said:

lol, they don't kill at the same range. Pit's b-air will kill Marth at under 100% unless it's at the middle of FD or something extreme like that. Pit's undimished f-smash almost does the same. Unless Marth gets tippers, Pit will be living to higher percents constantly.

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The edge of FD >_>

Marth can do the same with other attacks. He also shouldn't be getting hit by a Pit fsmash unless he makes a big mistake in spacing.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Pit's shield pressure is better.

-N-air on the top of a shield ***** shields and is nearly unpunishable if you land to u-tilt, which at that point is a guaranteed shieldstab

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Easily punished by up b OoS.

Sadaharu Inui said:

-U-air through a platform ***** shields

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Umm, ok? Marth can control platforms just as well if not better.

Sadaharu Inui said:

-ARROWS are safe on block because you should be at a distance when using them

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Well yeah, but what happens once Marth gets too close for Pit to spam arrows?

Sadaharu Inui said:

-Pit's f-smash can hit Marth just out of range of f-b, u-b, and jab, and it doesn't have enough recovery time to punish with f-smash or f-tilt.

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And why not mention dtilt? Marth's 1st or second safest move on block?

Sadaharu Inui said:

-Pit's f-air on the top of people's shields is less punishable than Marth's because he is floatier and can jump away after the move better.

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Up b OoS either way.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Wrong.

If Marth does <insert anything>, especially his laggy smashes, Pit can use d-b to reverse it and then **** Marth. Marth can't even fight that well up close where he supposedly has this huge advantage if Pit players just used d-b properly.

Marth's invincible u-b? Doesn't matter. D-b will reflect Marth and gimp him. Pit can effortlessly edgeguard Marth.

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By your logic, Marth can do the same exact thing and completely shut down Pit with his counter.

Sadaharu Inui said:

-The moves Marth has that outrange Pit on the ground have too much recovery time to be spammed besides d-tilt.

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It's not even that, it's Marth's pure zoning alone that makes Pit almost helpless unless he runs away, and with Marth's speed he should be able to keep the distance close.

Sadaharu Inui said:

-Pit's smashes both come out faster and have less recovery time than Marth's, making them far more usable overall.

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With crap range.

Sadaharu Inui said:

-Once Marth gets close, pressing d-b reverses whatever he does, which is going to have enough recovery time to punish.

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Like I said, if that is what is going to happen why can't Marth just use counter and do the same thing? His down b won't have a huge impact in this match, if at all.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Pit's don't approach. Marth can't force Pit to approach because Pit has arrows.

Pit has glide attack, which is huge and has high priority, so he can actually just glide at Marth and beat any of his moves a lot.

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Because it's impossible to avoid and see this coming amirite? >_>

I don't know the exact range on this move when perfectly spaced, but if it isn't as good as Meta's glide attack it should be able to get hit by up b out of shield.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Getting inside Marth's range is much easier than the other way around. Marth has to work around a projectile and then not get hit by Pit's plethora of 4 or less frame moves that have an underestimated amount of range. Pit has to deal with fast moves with decent range, but he's not working around a projectile. Pit can just randomly f-b at Marth sometimes and it works.

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You make it sound like getting past these arrows is near impossible. SHAD, simply jumping around, perfect shield approach, rolling, etc.

Pit can't compete up close with Marth's zoning simply BECAUSE of his lack of range.

Forward b is a simply smash DI, though if you keep it going Marth can up b and hit Pit back out.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Pit's answer to Marth getting near him: Run away and shoot more arrows.

Then the cycle repeats, with Marth being put in the worse situation constantly.

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Absolutely, how else can Pit win this match? Marth's speed however can make it so Pit can't get too far away and once he can reset his zoning Pit is once again in a tight spot with not much to do.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Every character has trouble dealing with arrow spam, roll/dodge/jump when the person comes near you, <insert random super fast and hard to punish move>, repeat. Marth has extra trouble because his larger moves have lots of recovery time and he has projectile to spam back at Pit.

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Oh come on, you play Marth.. right?

And you're being way too general here.. "<insert random super fast move>". Marth has no way to out prioritize/outrange/avoid this so Pit can just run away again?

Sadaharu Inui said:

55/45 Pit.

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65:35 Marth.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Extremely campy character in a very campy game > character that has to attack to win.

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By this way of thinking why doesn't Falco destroy Marth? That match is already 60:40 Marth and Falco boards agree.

Sadaharu Inui said:

Missing that dolphin slash = you get *****. It doesn't hit until frame 5 and shields come out in 2 frames. Do the math.

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Like Steel2nd said, I'll only be using it out of shield when you are attacking my shield. Thus you will have 0 time to shield because you'll be in some type of attack animation. Of course Dolphin Slash is ******** if your opponent can shield. Only use it as a punishment.

It's not unsafe to approach Marth, otherwise he'd be S tier instead of A tier. Marth has many unsafe moves that he must use to get kills, and that is when Pit can punish with a KO move.

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If you are approaching Marth, he isn't going to be spamming kill moves. You will not be able to punish him. Again, like Steel2nd said, Marth is the one doing the approaching in this match. If Pit tries it he's giving up his biggest advantage.

Yes, because there are a lot of good Pit players to judge this off of and we really understand what Pit is capable of.

Oh, wait, there are none.

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I understand what Pit is capable of by understanding the mechanics of gameplay - the physics engine, Pit's moves, hitboxes, and while not very accurate, a rough idea of how quick or slow his moves are (not as good as frame data I suppose). The number of people maining Pit has NOTHING to do with these things. Pit is a preconstructed character, you can't say he will get better when someone else uses him. We can already see what he is capable of.

lol, they don't kill at the same range. Pit's b-air will kill Marth at under 100% unless it's at the middle of FD or something extreme like that. Pit's undimished f-smash almost does the same. Unless Marth gets tippers, Pit will be living to higher percents constantly.

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How are you going to land a bair? Marth outranges Pit's bair with his fair and bair, by a significant amount. Fsmash? You're only going to land that as a punishment, because yet again you won't be able to get close enough in for Fsmash to hit Marth. Honestly, Pit has a couple stronger killing moves, but in this matchup, they are less safe than Marth's. Also Marth has gimps in this matchup, and can kill with a tipper fair or bair quite easily.

Pit's shield pressure is better.

-N-air on the top of a shield ***** shields and is nearly unpunishable if you land to u-tilt, which at that point is a guaranteed shieldstab
-U-air through a platform ***** shields
-ARROWS are safe on block because you should be at a distance when using them
-Pit's f-smash can hit Marth just out of range of f-b, u-b, and jab, and it doesn't have enough recovery time to punish with f-smash or f-tilt.
-Pit's f-air on the top of people's shields is less punishable than Marth's because he is floatier and can jump away after the move better.

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Wow. Marth has one of the best shield pressure games there is. Pit doesn't beat him at it. DB >>>> spotdodge. Shieldbreaker >>>> Shields. Poking out of range = 0 shieldgrabs. Also it's almost impossible to pressure Marth's shield, as he can just dolphin slash out of shield. All the options you named are SHUT DOWN by dolphin slash.

How do arrows apply shield pressure when they can just be perfect shielded or dodged?

Marth isn't going to be spacing using Dancing blade, Dolphin slash or jab. Try dtilt or ftilt, which both outrange all of Pit's ground options besides arrows.

You can't attack Marth's shield with Pit. It's asking to be DS'd in the face.

Wrong.

If Marth does <insert anything>, especially his laggy smashes, Pit can use d-b to reverse it and then **** Marth. Marth can't even fight that well up close where he supposedly has this huge advantage if Pit players just used d-b properly.

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If Marth is throwing out a smash when Pit is not in lag frames from a previous attack, you are playing a Marth who has made a very poor choice. Marth uses his smashes as PUNISHMENT moves after the opponent has thrown out a laggy attack. Okay, say you down b a dtilt. Marth is turned around. Wow. Big deal, Marth can turn around before Pit can do anything, thanks to his dtilts IASA frames. Punish that.

Marth's invincible u-b? Doesn't matter. D-b will reflect Marth and gimp him. Pit can effortlessly edgeguard Marth.

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I'm not sure about the logistics of this, but if you're on the stage and you use your down b, and I am sweetspotting the edge with my up b, I don't see how I'm going to be gimped. If you drop off the stage to use down b against me, then you're asking for me to wait until you release down b, at which point I will Dolphin Slash, stage spiking you.

Arrows work in the air.

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Yeah, okay, but Marth has no reason to take to the air to attack Pit if he's out of range. I mean in terms of close up spacing, you will not be able to hit Marth with an aerial if he spaces properly, because all your aerials are outranged by a significant amount.

-The moves Marth has that outrange Pit on the ground have too much recovery time to be spammed besides d-tilt.
-Pit's smashes both come out faster and have less recovery time than Marth's, making them far more usable overall.
-Once Marth gets close, pressing d-b reverses whatever he does, which is going to have enough recovery time to punish.

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dtilt is spammable. ftilt cannot be punished if spaced properly. Shieldbreaker as a mixup - but yes it does have considerable lag time. You better hope you chose to spotdodge instead of shield though.

Pit can't use his smashes if he can't get close enough to Marth to use them. The low cooldown time means next to nothing. He can only uses smashes as punishment, you can't just throw them out all the time or you're just going to get *****.

Down b reversal isn't going to make Marth take any extra time to recover. If he throws out a laggy move you can punish. If he doesn't, regardless of him being turned around, he won't be in cooldown frames any more, and you do not have a sure shot at hitting him, as he can
1. Walk away
2. Turn around and initiate an attack, more quickly and more ranged than most of Pit's
3. Shield, and reverse up b if you attack his shield.
4. Dancing blade once you get into close enough range to attack him.

Pit's don't approach. Marth can't force Pit to approach because Pit has arrows.

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Agreed. Marth will be approaching Pit. Once he finishes approaching and remains outside of Pit's range, Pit will be hard pressed to land a hit on him, unless he goes further away from Marth (to use arrows), or GET INSIDE OF MARTH's range, which is going to be difficult to do if Marth isn't throwing out laggy attacks.

Pit has glide attack, which is huge and has high priority, so he can actually just glide at Marth and beat any of his moves a lot.

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If you're attacking me from the front with glide attack, I'll ftilt. If you're attacking me from above with it, I'll utilt. If you're too close and I can't outrange you, I'll shield to dolphin smash. Pit's glide attack is a good move, but a grounded Marth has many options against it. In the air, there's always counter or airdodge.

Getting inside Marth's range is much easier than the other way around. Marth has to work around a projectile and then not get hit by Pit's plethora of 4 or less frame moves that have an underestimated amount of range. Pit has to deal with fast moves with decent range, but he's not working around a projectile. Pit can just randomly f-b at Marth sometimes and it works.

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Marth is one of the best characters at running up and past projectiles. Simply run, and then use a combination of powershields, spotdodges and SH air dodges to avoid the spam until you're in range. Okay, your moves are fast. But what if I stop running away once I'm in dtilt range? You won't hit me. Yes, Pit's moves have decent range. You may say I am underestimating the range, but the fact remains that Marth does outrange him and with a good spacing game, they will whiff the air in front of Marth. Fb is just going to get shield -> dolphin slashed.

Pit's answer to Marth getting near him: Run away and shoot more arrows.

Then the cycle repeats, with Marth being put in the worse situation constantly.

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Getting near him, when you're outranged? I don't think so.

I don't see how Marth is in a bad situation. If he is good he will only have to deal with a few seconds of arrow spam before he closes the gap and arrows are no longer viable. Once in this position, Marth is at an advantage, and Pit will have trouble getting in or getting away.

Every character has trouble dealing with arrow spam, roll/dodge/jump when the person comes near you, <insert random super fast and hard to punish move>, repeat. Marth has extra trouble because his larger moves have lots of recovery time and he has projectile to spam back at Pit.

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Okay, so I'll get close to you, and you'll roll, dodge or jump, when I haven't activate a move. You're asking to be punished. Okay, you're using a quick move.. wait, I'm standing out of range.. sorry. Marth is not going to be throwing out laggy moves when he's rushing you down. His Fsmash and Dsmash are used for PUNISHING, for the last time. He will not approach you with these. His long ranged moves like dtilt and ftilt don't have enough cooldown to be punished, especially since they outrange Pit.

55/45 Pit.

Extremely campy character in a very campy game > character that has to attack to win.

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Yet MK, the character that is always forced to approach, is the best character in the game. I don't see your logic here

BTW if you want to go in terms of camping - Marth can simply camp right outside of Pit's range, and Pit has very few responses, because he has no offensive answer.

60/40 Marth, at worst.

I'm not going to debate this any further. You are the only person arguing in Pit's favor. If you want to debate someone, try to prove to EL that Pit has the edge in this matchup, because I'm just not buying it.

The way people describe Marth's options and properties in these matchup threads, you would think Marth was easily the 2nd best character in the game.

Examples excluding MK:
1. Can't really touch Marth's shield without getting UpB'd or punished in some other way.

2. Impossible to outspace because of Fair camping and because of the speed, range and IASA frames of Dtilt.

3. Impossible to punish, because his range and speed allows him to safely space everything perfectly and his laggy moves are only used for punishing.

4. Projectiles are ineffective, because Marth just dodges(both kinds), shields(both kinds), cancels and jumps over them, and then zones you at close range.

5. Can't gimp him because of sideB stalling, neutralB, and the invincibility frames and stage spiking of upB.

6. Can't attempt any aerial approaches, because Marth is always waiting there with frame advantage, ready to stuff you with fair.

7. MK is his only disadvantaged matchup. Everything else is even or in his favor. According to the matchup index his matchups against high and top are even quite a bit better than Snake's, who is currently #2 on the tier list.

These are the impressions I get from this board, so why isn't Marth winning more tournaments? I'm not trying to be a ****, I just think this is controversial.