Toon Link Matchup Thread

Miamisportsfan45 · Jun 4, 2008

Nicely typed and researched guide Jesiah. If I used Toon Link more often, I'd probably use this. However, my teammate for some Doubles teams mains Toon Link so I'll be sure to have him check into this.

Antichrist · Jun 4, 2008

*seal clap* superb job so far man, cant wait to see this finished, all the advice int his thread is sound, i agree with pretty much everything in this guide. well done

Smashless · Jun 5, 2008

a good thing to keep in mind in TL vs. Rob is that Rob will often try to outspace TL with his Ftilt, as he does to most of the cast (he outspaces marths fsmash : /) But toon link can punish him with a long range grab.

it's a nice punishment for a very spammable rob strategy

Santi · Jun 7, 2008

WE NEED VIDEOS OF YOUR TL!!!
:D

I really do think videos of your toon link playing in some of these match ups would also help us a lot.

old king coal · Jun 7, 2008

i would make meta knight 7:3 - he is clearly toon links hardest matchup.

AlphaZealot · Jun 8, 2008

Ight, new comments on the match up analysis:

Diddy Kong- Diddy is no slouch, and this matchup should be approached with a bit more caution than the previous two. Diddy has his peanut gun as a projectile, but this should pose no threat to you. If he fires his gun uncharged, it has no range, and bounces so you can either jump over and arrow him, or let it bounce over you while you arrow him. If he charges his gun up, the peanut will move in a straight line, and deal more damage. There are so many ways to deal with this, but I'll just name a few. You can use platforms and throw projectiles from there, you can let the peanut hit Toon Link's shield, you can powershield it...It's really not a threat. The real danger begins when Diddy begins to use Bananas.

This is fine, peanuts aren't a threat, but it should be mentioned peanuts will rarely be used anyways, and it should also be mentioned that peanuts primary use is for edge guarding and distraction, which can't really be dealt with in the ways described here.

Bananas are Diddy's game. Bananas also completely change the way this matchup should be approached. This matchup needs to be played completely differently from any other matchup in the game. Think Melee Falco...You can't just Dash Dance and Wavedash around, because you will get mauled by lasers. You need to focus on getting around the lasers. The same thing applies to this matchup. You'd be a fool to try and beat Diddy without worrying about Bananas. Bananas can lead into combos, more Bananas, or a grab...Anything really. They can become extremely frustrating, and against someone that doesn't know what they're doing vs Bananas, will most likely make the matchup impossible for them. Let's go over the basics. Diddy pulls out Bananas by pressing down B. They are thrown up into the air behind him. He can pull out up to 2 Bananas at a time. It takes a while for him to pull each Banana out, and the Bananas take a second or two to pull out, however, Diddy can move almost immediately after he pulls the Banana out, and will have to wait until the Banana hits the ground before he can use it, unless he jumps in the air and catches it...Which is unlikely.

Some notes here: it is highly likely the nana will be caught before it lands, its pretty much standard procedure to catch the nana with a B-Air, N-Air, or what some claim to be most efficient, air dodge.

It should also be noted that nana's are a projectile when Diddy throws them out, if Diddy's back is to you and he is throwing, he is not open but instead covered by the nana projectile, which travels in a nice arch and is even further protective is nana's are thrown consequentially with a B-Air catch on the second nana.

Diddy needs to pick up the Bananas in order to throw them. Once thrown, if they come in contact with you, you will trip. If they hit your shield, they will fall to the ground and lay there. If you step on the Banana, you will trip. If Diddy steps on the Banana, he will not trip. Either character can walk over to the Banana and grab it. Any character can also grab the Banana by using their Dash Attack. After a while, the Banana will disappear if it's laying on the ground for a while.

Fine.

Bananas are very good because of the fact that, they make the opponent trip. When you trip, there is a split second when you are on your butt, and you can't move at all. It is at this time, where you are vulnerable. Basic Diddy strategy is to throw a Banana at you, and when you trip, capitalize on it by throwing another Banana, or Dash Attacking, and comboing from a Dash Attack or hopefully pick up the thrown Banana in the process. Diddy will be Dash Attacking across the stage in hopes of hitting you/picking up Bananas. Diddy's Dash Attack is retartedly good. It hits multiple times, and is lagless, meaning that he can move instantly after it. It has range also, which adds to it's amazingness. 9/10 times if Diddy throws a Banana at you, he will follow it up with a Dash Attack. Even if you shield the Banana, he will Dash Attack, since it's lagless, you are forced to roll away pretty much.

True, it should be noted that Diddy can be shield grabbed, but shied grabbing Diddy after he has thrown one or two bananas at you is amazingly difficult and its likely the dash attack will succeed more often than the shield grab. After the dash attack, if you miss the shield grab (and are open to attack or just sitting in your shield) Diddy can usmash, u tilt, or utilt into usmash and your shield will be butter.

Now, hopefully you have an idea of how good Bananas are. Diddy will set the pace of the match.. You will not be able to approach. You won't be able to do anything you want. You can't just run around freely, spacing yourself perfectly. You have to focus on the Bananas if you want any chance at winning this match. That being said, Toon Link's Anti Banana game is better than that of most characters.

To begin with, Toon Link is pretty much the same speed as Diddy Kong...A TAD bit slower, but not enough to make a difference. This helps greatly in being able to get to Bananas before Diddy/just as quick. Basically, it puts you even with Diddy in terms of being able to control the stage. Whichever character is closer to the Banana will get there first. You can also pick up Bananas with your Dash Attack. Toon Link's Dash Attack isn't that great, mainly because of it's laginess at the end, however, it can still help if Diddy is close to the Banana, since your Dash attack beats his...You do have a sword, afterall xD. You can grab Bananas in the air too, and Toon Link's amazing aerial DI also helps with this. The main way you are going to want to pick up Bananas is by running, tapping the shield button, and then buffering a Jab, which, if close to a Banana, will pick it up. This is the quickest and least laggy way to pick it up. If Bananas are being directly thrown at you...Well, catch them. This is the easiest and believe it or not, safest way to deal with Bananas being thrown at you, not to mention the most rewarding way. You can shield them, and then jump out of shield and catch them in the air. You can spotdodge them, and then run behind you and pick them up...There are a lot of ways really. I prefer the catching method, or the Shielding method though. They're just quicker and easier.

Dash attack pick up is good if nana is alone, most Diddy's will cluster nanas so dash attack pick up leads to a trip from second nana. Shield stopping into jab pick up is good advice.

Careful with the catching idea. Diddy has two bananas, catching one makes it likely that the second will hit you. If you catch and throw at Diddy, it will be a tie, both nanas will hit, but Diddy is substantially more equipped because of his dash attack to pick up the (no longer his ownership) banana and continue the attack sequence. If one nana, catch, if two, consider other options like waiting for the second banana and catching that one after shielding the first (though this is also risky, dash attack from diddy is likely to occur concurrently with the TL catch of the second nana).

Now, when you get the Bananas, you have to capitalize on them. Make them your tools. Once you have the Banana, Diddy is now not only on the same level, but below you. Toon Link as a character is better, it's just the Bananas that make Diddy so good. Once the Bananas are yours, consider yourself Toon Link with Bananas. You're just better. Make sure that your Bananas connect though lol. Don't hit Diddy's shield, or it means nothing. When the Banana connects, follow up with a Dash attack of your own, since that is most likely the only attack that you'll have time to use, or your grab, since it has range. If you're close enough, you can hit them with a Nair also...And, if you wanna be real cool...At low-mid percents...Zair to Fsmash works xD. It's hard to pull off though, but it's badass. If you pick up another Banana as they are recovering from their trip, you can time it so you hit them with the Banana and they trip again. Everything Diddy can do to you with Bananas, you can do back to him. The only advantage Diddy has in regards to Bananas is that his Dash Attack is amazing for picking them up, and he begins with them...But, those advantages are far outweighed by the fact that Toon Link is just better overall, so if he has Bananas...It's good game for Diddy.

I would disagree with some of the exaggeration of TL over Diddy w/o nanas, but mostly correct, getting control or stemming Diddy's control of nanas is key in the match up.

And THAT...Is how you deal with Bananas my friends. Yes, I spent around 5 hours playing solely vs Diddy Kong to make sure everything I tested was true and worked not only in theory, but in practice. It all works.

The rest of the matchup is straightforward. You outrange him and outprioritize him for the most part, save his Ftilt. Be careful of his Ftilt. Airdodge out of combos, but don't get too predictable with your airdodges. You can combo him also using Bairs, so do it up. You can kill him much easier than he can kill you, as he has to rely on his Fair, Dsmash, and Fsmash to kill you, all of which should be pretty easily avoided. Toon Link can kill Diddy, from the middle of Final Destination with no DI with his Uair at 105%, Usmash and Fsmash at 110%, 105%, his Fair at 125%. Diddy can kill Toon Link under the same conditions with his Dsmash at 125%, Fsmash at 125%, Fair at 140%, Ftilt at 155%. Edgeguarding is about even, as neither characters can really do much to each other...I'd probably have to give it to Toon Link, as the chances of him harassing Diddy's recovery with projectiles is greater than Diddy using Diddy hump on Toon Link's recovery.

Overall, Toon Link is a better character. With a solid anti Banana game, there's not much Diddy can do besides the same things you can...just worse overall at it due to being worse than Toon Link without Bananas. 6:4 Toon Link

True about the KO's, which is also one of Diddy's biggest weaknesses.

JesiahTEG · Jun 9, 2008

Sorry I haven't been keeping up on this as much as I/you guys would like to have, but I've been very busy lately...Will start up again soon though. xD

Coselm · Jun 13, 2008

I posted this in the TL's worst match-up thread and I thought I should put it here as well.

________________________________________________________________________

Toon Link's worst match-ups: (no particular order btw)

#1) ROB

Rob outprioritizes TL, outranges TL, can outspam TL, his air game beats yours, his recovery beats yours, etc. etc.

ROB can certainly beat you close range with his Dsmash, and if the ROB has any knowledge of spacing, he can pound you with f-tilts and d-tilts to keep you at bay. His top can stop ground approaches, as well as block your boomerang and grounded arrows. His laser comes out faster, and out-prioritizes and projectile TL has. He can chase you off the stage with almost no risk of punishment. ROB spits on TL's edge game. ROB can survive a dair spike.

To sum it up, ROB beats you in any and every situation (on the ground, in the air, on the edge, long range, close range, you name it he beats you.

#2) MetaKnight

I'm not even really gonna put much here. MK is a hard match up for any character, imo. His speed makes spamming easy to punish. He can gimp you when you are off the edge. His recovery is great (MK can also survive a Dair spike. If he is at low percent, and meteor cancels, he can survive Dair 2-3 times on some stages). MK is jsut really fast, and has jsut a little bit more range than TL that makes him a really hard match-up.

#3) Olimar

Olimar is the king of spammage. He can jsut chill and throw pikmin all day. Once you are stuck with a pikmin, you can't throw bombs. I'm pretty sure you can Dair off of the pikmin when they are stuck at you, which can lead into some mindgames, but most Olimar's won't let you be that close to them for long enough for this to really happen much. Well anyways, like I was saying... He can jsut spam pikmin, and if you make a desperate foolish approach you will just run into a wall of Fsmash pikmin. His Fsmash both outranges and outprioritizes any of your ground approaches, and it is not likely you will be punishing him for trying it, either. Olimar's grab range is ludicrous, and sometimes I can't even tell he's trying to grab me because all his moves look exactly the same to me. He can kill you pretty early with his Usmash. Despite all of this, the Olimar match is not a total loss because you can gimp his recovery. The key to beating Olimar is to be patient, avoid his pikmin spammage by taking advantage of your agility, use your edge game to your advantage, and try to get Olimar off the stage and knock him farther with a fair or, more practically, a nair.

#4) Snake

I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. Snake doesn't have anything particular on TL, but he is jsut generally a great character. While you beat Snake in the projectile spammage game, he can easily approach you with a mortar slide. Snake can rack up damage VERY fast if you are not careful, which is not a good think cuz he can get early kills. His recovery is very good. I know that you can gimp his recovery with the 'grabbing the cypher' trick, but to be honest, a good snake will RARELY fall into this. Snake is not that hard in my opinion. I think it is overall an even match-up, but it is one of TL's harder ones I suppose.

#5) Zelda

She can outspam you, reflect your projectiles, and her moves have massive priority. For instance, if you tried to Dair her, she can hit you out of it with an u-air or an U-smash. She has pretty good recovery, but you will be getting kills around average percents with U-smash so no worries. You can gimp her if you get her under the stage, but other than that you probably won't be gimping her. Another thing that works to Zelda's advantage is the small amount of players that use her. All in all, TL should win this match, but it is one of the trickier ones.

#6) Wolf

His laser spammage works well against TL. Fsmash is a good approach. He can sometimes be hard to kill, and can kill you early if you don't watch your back. I think a lot of TLs have trouble with this match up because they don't have the necessary patience to get past the laser spammage, and fall into Fsmashes (which become VERY predictable). TL should win this one because you can gimp wolf due to his mediocre recovery, and you destroy his airgame and can combo him into hell. I don't have trouble with this match-up, but I thought it deserved a spot because I always read about TLs complaining about this one.

__________________________________________________________________________

ROB, MK, and Olimar are definetly TL's hardest match-ups in my experience. I thought Snake, Zelda and Wolf deserved mentioning b/c, although I think the matches are even, and possibly leaning to TL's favor in the case of Zelda and Wolf, they can be tricky match-ups. Oh yeah... Another TL is also a hard match. It all boils down to who is the better player in that situation I suppose.

Coselm · Jun 15, 2008

I noticed your MK info had NOTHING on how to deal with his tornado... which is weird...

because that is one of MKs best moves.

So I made my own thread about how to get around it and maybe once we get some results you can put some of that into your thread?

QUIVO · Jun 16, 2008

Vs ROB: Use your projectile game to play your game. Try WoP esque attacks with nair/bair working around him and his shield. Just watch out for dsmash. Gyro and top can get annoying, but just be on your feet and ready to dodge. I recommend not attacking him off the stage, overswarm always gets me that way. Save your usmash for kills! ROB is heavy and has such a good recovery that you need a solid KO move you don't spam.

Vs Metaknight: Personally I think this is my worst matchup. I've found a lot of arrow cancels work great on MK. Try to bait him into chasing you and then arrow him, this will seize his attack. If you do that you can follow up with a nair or bair sometimes. MK is one of the few matchups where I try to dair. Two hits of dair at low percent can set up nairs or bairs. Again, save your ko moves against MK. I recommend trying to finish him with dsmash, usmash and uair (utilt can work well if you don't use it much this matchup). Also, try having him chase you the entire game. It's incredibly hard to fight MK up close and work around his shield.

Olimar: I don't see how so many people have trouble with him. Yea he can be a pain, but you just have to know what to do. Pikmin spammers are easy to get around. Just RAR at him and it'll kill the pikmin (nairs work as well). Personally I try to work at midrange to close range. At midrange I go for projectiles while dodging his pikmin. I'll slowly work my way up against olimar and from there I work around him and his shield (Nairs/bairs). Usually what happens is they'll try shieldgrabbing or dsmash out of shield. This is why you work around him and avoid all those things. If you're close to the edge, try hitting him with the sweet spot dsmash where it sends him flying the opposite direction. This works wonders at lower percent since you can try predicting what he's going to do and fair him. Make sure to stay on him though

Snake: Pain, but good spacing is the key (as always). Projectile spams and Raring when possible. Make sure to shield properly, and expect jab/ftilt combos. Stop mortar slide approach with projectiles. Go for fairs as he recovers to stage. If he recovers from above, try to fake out with uair but hit with up b. That sometimes works.

JesiahTEG · Jun 18, 2008

Alright, added the Wolf matchup, info about MK's Tornado, and changed the Snake matchup ratio and also mentioned his Boost Smash...Thanks to Coselm and Quivo for the advice, I'll fit it in when I get the chance...And, just a note, my Toon Link is NOT like, ridiculously amazing. It's good and can keep up with the best players in my area, but I mean, there are a lot of good Toon Link's around here. Example, last time I played Quivo online, he was winning before I quit due to lag...Wasn't that bad, but yeah I'm sure a lot of us have great Toon Links.

huenikad · Jun 18, 2008

Hello, I had a question on how to deal with pit. I'm still a beginner but in general pits arrow spam beats mine, and even close combat he gets me.

JesiahTEG · Jun 19, 2008

Pit is a really hard matchup for Toon Link...I guess I'll do that matchup next.

huenikad · Jun 19, 2008

Awesome, looking forward to seeing that.

Dpete · Jun 24, 2008

You should really reconsider the 7:3 disadvantage for Kirby. The Kirby board actually has the matchup at 6:4 in favor of Kirby... I'm curious to hear your reasoning behind the 7:3 rating.

JesiahTEG · Jun 24, 2008

The Kirby one, I haven't done yet. The ratios are actually a bit innacurate for anything besides the ones I have already written.

Eazy23 · Jun 24, 2008

Vs snake, remaining in the air OUT of utilt range, and high enough to maneuver away from his usmash is a great strategy. You can easily toss bombs, airdodge 2 bair and create combos from this position.
Arrows will not effectively force a snake to approach, you do know that snakes rapid jab stops arrows right?Therefore, if the snake is winning, and tlink is shooting arrows, snake will simply continue to jab the arrows.
Imo bombs are the best projectile for this fight, they cause snakes to get annoyed and make stupid decisions. Arrows are great for setting a sort of camping play style, and letting the snake know that you WILL camp them. It is their decision if they want to have that camping battle, but the real damage will be cone with the bombs and boomerangs.

Also there are many effective combos that work on snake, try to implement pivot grabbing into your play style for some added mindgames.

QUIVO · Jun 25, 2008

A good Kirby is a pain for TL. They can stay in the air and evade your projectiles pretty easily. He's also hard to hit since he's small, and his Fsmash is a fast Ko move (faster than most of yours)

Also,I've discovered that up b out of shield or when you expect them to spot dodge works INCREDIBLY well. Especially against MK and ROB. Those two characters usually spot dodge so much...

LINKaTINK · Jun 25, 2008

For the record....DK and TL are at least even...if not in favor for DK, DK is the spacing master and he just destroys TL with his BU-up invincibility on the map to avoid projectiles. And if you honestly think snake and TL are even in a match...thats ridiculous. Snake's power overwhelms everything about TL. ROB and TL have similar match dynamics (when they are in kill range), while DK and Snake start to get kills closer to 80%. A good Snake vs a good TL, will come up snake 6:4.

Eazy23 · Jun 27, 2008

Well everything is relative to skill level? Are you around a very competitive smash scene? I myself am. I have tons of experience vs snake, and yes the match is very close to even. This is assuming that the toon link player is patient enough to make the match even. You can easily out camp snake. Never approach him and stay moving. You rack up so much damage, so quickly. need proof?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lEmJiDgCIJw

This is what happens when snake gets completely out camped by toon link. His strength doesnt matter if YOU ARE NOT GETTING HIT.

LINKaTINK · Jun 27, 2008

I dono about that snake, although you were impressive with camping... I play a snake player who breaks the camp with ease...mortar sliding, using grenades (which that guy never used), and b-uping to attack from above. Airdodging as an approach to TL is just insane, as he SHADs into whichever tilt. Yes i play in a very competitive smash environment, since god **** SSB, through SSBM, and now...and i have to say, pikachu--> fox-->snake.

JesiahTEG · Jul 1, 2008

I think it's about even...If anything, I'd have to say Snake's favor, although I'd say more even than in Snake's favor.

ZeroXMachine · Jul 3, 2008

vs. Olimar

Can someone post a video of how to effectively outcamp Olimar? I simply am having a lot of trouble with that matchup, and based on this thread, I shouldn't be.

I think the fact that I utilize bombs frequently kinda screws me over because his little Pikmin will blow my bomb up right in my face. Also I have a difficult time reading Olimar because all of his move look the same to me. His small size also messes with my comboing too.

The consolation of playing vs. Olimar though is he's pretty light (and therefore easy to kill) and his recovery is easy to gimp.

Does the camping strategy consist of SHDA + Boomerangs? I read up on what you guys have said about the matchup, but I don't know what RAR is... can someone define that for me?

DanGR · Jul 6, 2008

Toon Link>Olimar? I'd like to see that discussion. lol

Edit: lol^ I didn't see that post. Olimar has the advantage 7:3 IMO. Olimar outcamps TL and TL has a hard time approaching. That simple. TL's rather bad grab doesn't help him up close either.

I'm also worried about your opinion on Zelda. 6:4 Toon Link? wow

Yukiwarashi · Jul 7, 2008

Squirtle...over TL? What? I definitely have to see this...

Finch · Jul 7, 2008

This thread is pretty dumb. If you don't know a matchup don't just put everything in TL's favor. Based on this matchup thread toon link is easily the best character in the game, but it is obvious he's not.

vanderzant · Jul 8, 2008

DanGR said:
Toon Link>Olimar? I'd like to see that discussion. lol
I'm also worried about your opinion on Zelda. 6:4 Toon Link? wow

Yeah I have been having ALOT of trouble playing Zelda lately (two of my friends Main and 2nd her).

I don't really care about ratios but even if you can't do the match up next I'd like to get some tips for facing Zelda. From my experiences I'll list the things I can't get around.

- Din's fire is very annoying. It straight away destroys your long range game and forces TL to approach. What's more, when used correctly, it can prevent a safe return to the stage, especially if you like to throw a bomb/rang as you are recovering.
-Zelda has a reflector to stop any projectiles you might get through hers
-Her UpSmash is godly. It out ranges/prioritizes even TLs Dsmash. When combined with with Dins fire it is hard to get back to the ground safely (from the air)

Thanks if you can relate to/help me with my Zelda woes

Finch · Jul 10, 2008

Zelda is hard for TL because of her gay hitboxes that TL can't outrange at all. If she's reflecting stuff a lot then just throw a bomb at her from far away so that when she reflects it it lands on the ground right next to her. To get around din's fire you have to powershield or airdodge to approach until you get in arrow range and then just cover your approach with projectiles. If you can bait an f/usmash or something then she's left pretty open. Also your zair should outrange anything she has. The most important thing about the matchup is to never, ever get hit with her aerials. Her uair fair and bair all kill at ridiculously low percents. Up smash kills her pretty well though so just watch your spacing, approach with projectiles, grab her if she tries to fsmash, and upsmash/uair ftw.

Also one word about din's fire: people say it's good but honestly it's really predictable so if you time your airdidge correctly you shouldn't really ever get hit by it coming back to the stage, and it's pretty easy to powershield on approach. If you're playing patiently it really shouldn't be a problem.

zeldanerd143 · Jul 14, 2008

well toon link is my main and this helps a lot!!!!

Clink · Jul 14, 2008

Against Olimar, I think it's a mid range spacing game that get TL the advantage. I have a friend who' Oli is top in The AV here in California. I play him all the time and have tons of exp with him. Camping Oli is possible but hard, yes. it's best to try and not resort to that too much. you'll want to hold off on tryin' to spam approach with Bombs as well. Since all off Oli's Pikmin will destroy taht bomb or get yuo hit by it when they latch.

if you can keep spacing mid range just right, you're out of range from the DSmash and grabs. yes, a occasional pikmin will latch. But you can't let a pikmin latching psych you. Most people will get hit by a pikmin and start wanting t knock them off. TL's aerials will kill some pikmin and the Nair kills them and hits Oli at the same rate. Spacing and approaching with Nair, Di back, to C-Arrow works very well. in the Air it's almost even game really.

TL's Uair has a lot of priority and does kill at a decent high percent. If below TL, just time your Uairs, just wait for that Air Dodge. Also, if you don't Uair at him he will more than likely spike you. So always, if approaching Oli from underneath, Uair.

If you're above him, Dair is great. only problem is his Uair's pikmin will instantly stop you. it's not so bad mainly cause' while he's falling you recovery from the Dair before he can get you. Now you can try do Dair again or Di away from him to gain some space.

oli is a great Edge guarder. He can grab you just off the tip of the stage. he can spike you if you Up-B. Also, his Bair and Fair will stage spike you. Best bet is to wait for an opportune moment and drop, pull out bomb, hop away from stage and try to gain access after tossing the bomb at him. He he's hit, make the recovery. Another way is to drop and hop to Uair. cause' more than likely he's wanting to spike you. Gettin him knocked upward becomes a recovery and even an advantage after you make it back on stage.

Of course if you approach with the R.A.R and gain that first Bair, keep it giong. you got him till about 50-60% easy. Once out of it gain some space and get those projectiles out.

If you're edge guarding him, it's not as difficult as you may think. First off, see how many pikmin he has. If he has a full set and you see him going for and up_B for the edge, it's your time to shine. just grab that edge before he does. even if way ahead of his up. you've got three shots and a quick tether recovery. just flick back and tether right away. Gaining your invincibility frames right away. if he missin Up, he's over. But he he connects, and you're at a high %...stage spike

. if you can also determine what pikmin he has up in line next, you should also be cautious of tryin the edge guard. if it's purple, be very careful. Might not want to try it unless you know you have it. cause purple is **** at even 50%.

He does have whistle Armor. Which is a pain when tryin to just throw projectiles at him from an edge guard. throw some bombs to get some damage, if he's whistle armoring, then tease him with them. Try to psych him so you can drop from the stage for a Fair or Nair.

Grabs. Olimar can combo up to about 50%+ out of a grab. if you DI away from it, you can get out and jump right away. If he grabs you, it's more than likely an Up-throw. Just DI awaya and tap jump rapidly. once out, get a safe landing or Dair. if you're at a high %, then keep a distance of course. With his inventory of pikmin, he can purple throw and kill you, purple Fsmash and kill at actually a pretty low %. If he grabs with blue at high %, be ready for the DI and even C-stick DI. Those blue **** like a Ness through at good high %.

JesiahTEG · Jul 14, 2008

Thanks bro, I'll add that Olimar info when I have time. xD

Munas · Jul 16, 2008

I have to admit, I find this list a bit skewed. I do love Toon Link, but it seems very off to me that only 3 characters in the entire game have an advantage against him. I'm new to the smash community so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Toon Link is regarded as a good, fairly high tier character, but I would think he would be regarded as one of the top 5-6 if he had advantage against so many characters.

I don't know where the conversation is at beyond the first page because that is a LOT of reading to cover, but here are my thoughts on what I see.

Olimar for one: Link can outcamp Olimar? I'm not so sure. Links arrows work decent at a long range, yeah they can probably cause Olimar some grief. The boomerang which I think is a bit under appreciated from what I've seen around the boards is very quick and a mid range attack and you just cant throw the bombs far enough to out distance Olimar. With all of his picmin out Olimar's range, to put it simply is **********. When I play an Olimar player I find a projectile game difficult to keep up due to Olimars range and power and for the same reasons he's difficult to engage. I haven't played against him enough to judge the aerial game between the two, but because Olimar has much better range and a better ground game in general it's very hard for me as Toon Link to get him in the air and juggle him, if it is the case that Olimar is at a disadvantage in the air against Toon Link then it's not likely that a good Olimar is going to choose to engage Toon Link in the air unless a golden opportunity presents itself. So what then is Toon Link to do?

ZeroXMachine · Jul 16, 2008

Munas said:
I have to admit, I find this list a bit skewed. I do love Toon Link, but it seems very off to me that only 3 characters in the entire game have an advantage against him. I'm new to the smash community so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Toon Link is regarded as a good, fairly high tier character, but I would think he would be regarded as one of the top 5-6 if he had advantage against so many characters.

I don't know where the conversation is at beyond the first page because that is a LOT of reading to cover, but here are my thoughts on what I see.

Olimar for one: Link can outcamp Olimar? I'm not so sure. Links arrows work decent at a long range, yeah they can probably cause Olimar some grief. The boomerang which I think is a bit under appreciated from what I've seen around the boards is very quick and a mid range attack and you just cant throw the bombs far enough to out distance Olimar. With all of his picmin out Olimar's range, to put it simply is **********. When I play an Olimar player I find a projectile game difficult to keep up due to Olimars range and power and for the same reasons he's difficult to engage. I haven't played against him enough to judge the aerial game between the two, but because Olimar has much better range and a better ground game in general it's very hard for me as Toon Link to get him in the air and juggle him, if it is the case that Olimar is at a disadvantage in the air against Toon Link then it's not likely that a good Olimar is going to choose to engage Toon Link in the air unless a golden opportunity presents itself. So what then is Toon Link to do?

Go read the Weekly Character Matchup #1: Olimar thread. Also, Clink put up some good stuff up there.

Clink · Jul 16, 2008

I wasn't Implying that Tl can out camp Oli. you can't really. It's a matter of slowly approaching with arrows and boomerang. I don't try to camp Oli. I'm more set around tossing some things at him as I get to a good range against him. Just don't be scared f him tossing pikmin. Don't throw bombs from a far either. If you get a good Nair out on him. you can either DI back into an arrow cancel or DI forward and fast fall into a jab combo. you'll jab him just as he hits the floor. Or wait for the Tech, if at hight %. if he techs, you can grab. More than likely he would try to shield or dodge roll if he techs.

Fino · Jul 18, 2008

yeah, I'm definitely sure olimar has the advantage. I second Tlink, so that's how I ended up here, and when I saw that I was like 'wtf? really?'
If you've ever tried to camp an olimar it's impossible. pikmin toss > every other projectile )minus pit's arrows and rob's laser).
Both recoveries are ridiculously gimped in the match-up, so you can't really bring that up.
midrange game is roughly equal, though I would venture to say that olimar wins b/c of slight range and priority. If anyone wants to test me on this I'm always open (though wifi isn't really the greatest indicator).

~Fino

IceDX · Jul 26, 2008

Trespayne · Jul 28, 2008

Zelda is a pretty tough match-up for Toon Link, one of my friends picks Zelda quite a bit and I found the best way to fight her is actually up close. I use a lot of Nair's and Fair's up close while spacing hits so you don't land within range of her after using an attack. And Bair's into Uair's for kills works well against her. Toon link can destroy her recovery too.
Coming down on Zelda is pretty hard with her up smash so if you get hit up, take a bomb out and throw it down, then try to fast fall down and airdodge if she comes up to attack you before you get to the ground.
I've been able to do well against Zelda using a lot of these strategies.

TLMarth · Jul 31, 2008

Shouldn't you put some counterpick stages for each character?
I think the Lylat stage with the three platforms (Lylat Cruise?) is good against Wolf, because on the sides, you can duck the lasers, and the boomerang and bomb go through the gaps in the platforms... though that's only what I've seen, 'cause I don't have the game yet and I don't regularly play with friends >.<

JoshXII · Aug 3, 2008

TL vs. Marth 6/4, Marth can be outdown way to easily.

Projectiles, and the Boomerang mostly, screw him over 1,2,3.

SonicFire · Aug 3, 2008

I thought Marth was a bad match-up.

I get confused with all the swordsmen and whatnot.

But it's true, TL ***** Marth with his projectiles, though Marth does have better reach with his sword.=/

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