• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Physics of Attacks (DI included) updated: 1/09/09

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Priority
Priority is what determines if any one attack will beat out, lose out, trade with, or clank with another attack. The player closest to player 1 has the most priority, although the instances where this matters is extremely limited. There are two types of priority: Intrinsic Priority and Implied Priority.

Intrinsic Priority
Intrinsic Priority is what the developers added for ground and special attacks that directly compares which attack has more priority. If one attack has more intrinsic priority than another attack, the first will beat out the second, completely overriding it. If the two attacks have similar intrinsic priority, then the two attacks will clash, causing both characters to return to their default state. This only applies to ground/ special attacks, and only when two hitboxes from these type of attacks collide. The amount of Intrinsic Priority that an attack has is just the amount of % it would deal. If two hitboxes connect and one of them would deal more than 10% than the other, then that attack overwrites the other. If they are 10% or less apart, then they will clash.

On the Intrinsic Priority of Aerials: Aerials can only clash with Specials and some unusual ground normals (i.e. Ness' usmash). Hitboxes of aerials that come out upon landing (i.e. the landing hit of the Game & Watch bair) clash as if they were ground normals.

Implied Priority
Implied Priority is a function of how far the hitbox of an attack extends past the hurtbox of the character performing the attack (aka, the level of disjointedness - I'll get back to disjointedness in a moment - of an attack). This mainly applies to aerial attacks' interactions with other (including other aerial) hitboxes. When two moves that don't clash have hitboxes that overlap, the priority isn't determined then (since they won't clash). In this type of collision, the "winner" is determined by whose hitbox overlaps the other's hurtbox first. The farther separated your hitbox is from your hurtbox, the more likely you are to hit them out of their attack and less likely to trade/ get hit out of your attack.

Note: The term Disjointed is kind of a misnomer. As often used by common users of the word, a move can either be disjointed, or not disjointed. However, that is pretty much a false analysis of the term, since there is no such non-relative definition of the term. Disjointedness is a term that describes the level of how much a hitbox extends past a hurtbox, not just if it does or not (i.e. it's a spectrum).

Projectile Priority
First, to define a projectile: A projectile attack is any attack that user does not undergo hiltag when the attack connects, but the possessor of the hurtbox being hit does (some projectiles will also undergo hitlag).

The following categories exist(there may be more i dont know about):

-Non-projectiles(Cannot be reflected/no interaction with reflecting hitboxes): Oil Panic, Reflector(Falco), PK Shove, Din's Fire(Ball), Olimar's Smashes, Olimar's Grab, PK Flash(Charge), Waddle Dee Throw, Waddle Doo Throw(Toss), Opponent Throw, Lucas' upsmash

-Standard(Projectile is a standard attacking hitbox/does not interact with Laser): Everything not listed below(WORK IN PROGRESS!)

-Living(Projectile contains both attacking and target hitboxes/Breaks Laser): Bomb(Link/TLink), Ice Shot, Wario Bike, Gyro, Pikmin Throw(all colors), Grenade, Nikita Missile,

-Laser(Projectile passes through attacking hitboxes, hits target hitboxes/Halts Living): Blaster(Fox), Blaster(Falco), Needle Storm, Banana Peel, PK Fire(Bolt), Blizzard, Bullet Seed

-Super(Projectile passes through attacking hitboxes, hits and passes through target hitboxes/Has Laser properties but isnt destroyed by Living): Robo Beam, PK Fire(Pillar), PK Thunder(Tail/Both), PK Flash(Explosion), Thunder

-Area(Projectile clashes with attacking hitboxes, hits and passes through target hitboxes/does not interact with Laser): Fire Breath(Both), Din's Fire(Explosion), PK Thunder(Lucas/Head), Inhale(both), Force Palm(nongrab)

-Ghost(Projectile has no interaction with attacking or target hitboxes): Bomb(Samus)

-Frail(Projectile is broken by all projectile types except Ghost and only breaks other Frail projectiles): Peanut Popgun
^Thanks to Simna ibn Sind

Grab Priority
An interesting thing about the priority of grabs: When a grab connects on the same frame as an attack, they "trade". This type of trade results in the grabber taking the full damage of the attack, but no knockback, and grabbing the person.
Video by Magus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeuXNw5P3G4

Phases of Being Hit
Once an attack connects, each character will go through several phases. The person who's attack connects goes through hitlag and then resumes with the attack's animation. The person getting hit goes through hitlag, hitstun and then tumble.

Hitlag
This phase starts when the hitbox connects with their hurtbox, and ends when the other character is sent flying. During this phase, both characters are in a "freeze frame" state, with the hitbox still active. This is very noticeable in this game, especially on attacks such as Zelda's death kicks. There are several notes to make here. First, if the attack causing the hitlag is a projectile, the projectile may undergo hitlag instead of the character who fired the projectile (the projectile's owner never undergoes hitlag for a projectile attack). Also, if time is slowed for one character but not the other, the person who's time is slowed will last in this phase significantly longer than the other.

There is a special type of Hitlag known as "Cinematic Hitlag", in which the hitlag lasts for longer than an attack of that strength normally would and the hittee cannot SDI during this type of hitlag.

Note: You cannot tech during hitlag (even if you SDI toward a surface). This rules out edgeteching as a means to survive an attack while being hit. All techs

Hitstun
Hitstun starts directly after hitlag. The person being hit undergoes this phase, and during it, can take no action of their own except teching. If a character is hit out of hitstun, this is called a true combo, and will register as consecutive hits in training mode.

Note: You can cancel hitstun by air dodging far quicker than you could normally jump out of the hitstun.


Tumble
Tumble is a phase that frequently (attack/ weight/ % dependent) follows hitstun. During this time your character can break tumble by doing any of the following: performing an aerail attack, performing a special attack, air dodging, "air teching" aka "wiggling" (rapidly pressing the control stick back and forth), teching (if you hit a wall/ the ground).

Meteor Stun
Meteors have drastically changed since Melee. First, you can meteor cancel with both a double jump or an up-b, just as you could in melee. However, there is a certain window in which you can meteor cancel (as opposed to starting right after hitlag). If you meteor cancel with a jump BUTTON too soon, you won't be able to meteor cancel. However, this does not apply to up-bs or tap jumps: one can mash up-b (or up) starting when they're hit and expect an early meteor cancel.


Directional Influence
Directional Influence (abbrv. DI) is one of the most important techniques to master.

Normal DI
Normal DI is a method of altering your trajectory after being hit using input from the control stick. Note: Normal DI DOES NOT affect how fast/ how much knockback you receive, it merely changes the direction you are sent. The goal of this DI is to change the direction an attack sends you to make it less lethal. Because you are only changing the direction you are sent, DI makes the most impact when done perpendicular to the base knockback of an attack. For instance, if you would be hit by an attack that sends straight upwards, the most pronounced DI would be straight to the side. Note that in that situation, you're decreasing your chance of dying off the top by bending your trajectory away from the upward death zone. For attacks that would send you off the stage in a manner to kill you, try DIing upward so you are sent less to the side, and more upward.
DI also helps to prevent combos. If you DI away from your opponent's weak attacks, they'll have a harder time following their attacks up.
DI is a difficult aspect of the game to master. It can keep you alive longer, it can keep you from getting comboed, and moreover, good DI makes you significantly better overall.
Normal DI is checked for on the last frame of hitlag only on the control stick.

Smash DI
Smash DI (aka SDI) is something significantly different from normal DI. During hitlag (if you're being hit), if you input one of the 8 most cardinal directions on the control stick, you will get an instantaneous change in position in the direction you input. This is good for escaping multiple hit attacks such as MK's neutral/ Side B attacks, fox's uair, many of Lucas' attacks, etc... Note: In order to SDI with the C-stick (set to smash/ special), you must return the C-stick to center before any additional SDI inputs will register, unlike the ability of the control stick to SDI while rolling it back and forth.

Note: You cannot SDI in any downward direction if you were hit while you were in the ground, even if you SDIed Upward first.

Automatic Smash DI
Automatic Smash DI, or ASDI, also gives you an instantaneous change in position, like SDI. There are several differences between SDI and ASDI, however. First, the length of an ASDI is significantly less than an SDI (approximately half as long). Also, unlike SDI, you do not need to press a direction during hitlag, you merely need to be holding that direction (on either the control stick or the cstick) when the hitlag ends. This is mainly used for escaping multihit attacks such as ROB's dsmash.


Attack Power Decay
This game "punishes" the repeated use of the same attack by decreasing BOTH the DAMAGE and KNOCKBACK a move does.

Attack Queue
The game keeps track of this by having an "Attack Queue" where it remembers the last 9 attacks that you landed on your opponent. If your attacks are getting weaker than you would like, just hit with several other attacks, and then your other moves will soon be back to full strength.

Decay Amount
A multiplier is applied to both the launch speed and damage dealt by an attack that depends on where in the attack queue that move already appears.

The following image (by ColinJF) shows how the different positions in the attack queue affect the decay multiplier.
The leftmost spot indicates the most recent attack in the queue and the rightmost spot indicates the least recent attack in the queue.


To find the decay multiplier, simply add up all of the values indicated for the given attack spot and subtract that from 1.

Attack Decay for Some Characters/ Attacks (By AlphaZealot)

Launch Speed
For an in depth thread on this refer to:Brawl Mechanics: Damage & Knockback Formulae, by ColinJF and Amazing Ampharos

Types of Knockback

Normal: These attacks have different knockback depending on which character is being hit and what percent they are at when hit.
Fixed Knockback: These attacks will always deal the same knockback to a given character, regardless of percent.
Set Knockback: These attacks will always deal the same knockback, regardless of character and percent.

Launch Speed Formula

Every Attack has 3 (or 4) constants associated with it that determine how much launch speed the attack wields.
These constants are
  • the Base Launch Speed (b)
  • the Launch Speed Growth (g) -- An attack with fixed launch speed has a g = 0
  • the Vertical Strength (c) -- only applicable on attacks with at least moderate knockback; c is negative if and only if the attack is a meteor smash
  • (only applicable to fixed knockback attacks)the Fixed Variance (v) -- This determines how fixed knockback attacks affect different characters.

Every Character being hit has two constants that affect the launch speed they receive
  • Launch Resistance (r)
  • Vertical Acceleration (a)

The launch speed equation is a two step equation.

1st step:
If the attack has an non-zero growth (g) (i.e. it's not fixed nor set knockback):
k = b + d * g / r
If the attack has fixed or set knockback:
k = b + v * r (set knockback attacks have v = 0)

where d is the damage the hittee is at after the attack

2nd step:
if k > 2550:
Launch Speed = k + (a - 1) * c
if k < 2550:
Launch Speed = k

There are additional multipliers that can be applied for Aura, "super effective"/ "not very effective", Fast Brawl, Slow Brawl, and if the hittee was charging a smash. Please refer to ColinJF and Amazing Ampharos' article for additional information.

Unfriendly Momentum

Escaping Aerial Hitstun
Different actions break out of hitsun at different times. The order for these is First the Air dodge, then an aerial, then a special, then a double jump.

Ideally, the fastest way to regain control out of aerial hitsun is usually to do your characters least duration attack. Regardless that the air dodge will break out first, a fast aerial will almost always end before an air dodge would.

Vid by Kizzu-Kun

Fast Falling
Once you've regained control after breaking out of hitstun, if dying over the top is a concern, you can fast fall (even on the way up) to rapidly slow how fast you rise vertically.

Momentum Canceling Specials
If you still have unfriendly momentum when you break out or regain control, using almost every (normally) momentum stopping special attack will result in that special actually giving you're unfriendly momentum a boost. This makes something like Fox's shine one of the worst things you can do for survival.

However, for whatever reason, several momentum stopping specials do not adhere to this mechanic, and actually will stop your momentum (including vertical). These specials are Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket (down-b), Donkey Kong's Up-b, and Yoshi's Side-B. The most effective way to use one of these momentum stopping specials to prevent death is to break out of hitstun with that character's shortest lasting aerial attack, and then use their momentum stopping special to halt all momentum.

Vid by Infzy


Special Thanks
Ankoku
Bowyer
Jman
AlphaZealot
Simna Ibn Sind
ColinJF
Amazing Ampharos
Kizzu-Kun
Infzy


I hope this helps, and I intend to add more to this when I/ others discover it.
 

Zink

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,365
Location
STEP YO GAME UP
wow, man. awesome. I graphed that decay function- just making up a number of 15 base dmg, it looks like it about halves at aorund 6 times in the queue. does that sound right?
 

robman1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
36
thanks for taking the time man! should help out the search function a bit!
 

Douten

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
15
I have a question.

For Implied Priority if more of my hurt area land on the opponent hit area none of my arial move will cancel their attacks(while their on the ground)? Because when I get knocked around it's a habit of mine to land near the opponent and do a Fair or Dair but when I was fighting with this guy his up smash always cancel out my attacks no matter the timing I tried.
 

Tyros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
41
Location
Savannah, GA
Nice job, amigo. Really helpful. May I suggest adding some examples under each description above to help people better understand?

- Tyros
 

RedTone

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
40
Attack Power Decay
This game "punishes" the repeated use of the same attack by decreasing BOTH the DAMAGE and KNOCKBACK a move does.

Attack Queue
The game keeps track of this by having an "Attack Queue" where it remembers the last 9 (although it may be 10) attacks that you landed on your opponent. If your attacks are getting weaker than you would like, just hit with several other attacks, and then your other moves will soon be back to full strength.
I have a few questions on this part and just want to make sure I've got it clear

Attack power only diminishes if you HIT the opponent with the attack right? It won't lower if you spam the attack and miss them?

Also if the game remembers the last 10 attacks landed on the opponent does that count the same attack?

For example, if Pikachu uses F Smash 10 times in a row it would become very weak, but if Pikachu hits the opponent with 10 Thunderjolts the F Smash becomes full power again? or does Pikachu have to use 10 different attacks? I.E. tilts and B moves?
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
That's a pretty arbitrary looking forumula for attack decay. How did you come up with it?
 

hoopspr226

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
279
Good stuff.

I never knew that aerials and ground attacks had different priority mechanics.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Automatic Smash DI
Automatic Smash DI, many Melee players would be familiar with, is NOT IN THIS GAME.
Is this why crouch canceling doesn't work now? I was always under the impression that crouch canceling was a direct result of ASDI into the ground. Anyways, good post - one of the most intelligent I've read.
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
EDIT: Scotu answered you guys' questions lol.

scotu, I'm pretty sure that shield hitting results neither in diminishing attack power nor in attack power recharging. Same goes for hitting projectiles. Add that in maybe?
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
I'm pretty sure I have seen aerials clank.
I was unable to get aerials to clank when I was trying earlier.

I have a question.

For Implied Priority if more of my hurt area land on the opponent hit area none of my arial move will cancel their attacks(while their on the ground)? Because when I get knocked around it's a habit of mine to land near the opponent and do a Fair or Dair but when I was fighting with this guy his up smash always cancel out my attacks no matter the timing I tried.
If you do an aerial attack, and their usmash hitbox hits your hurtbox before your aerial hitbox hits their hurbox, then your aerial gets beaten.

I have a few questions on this part and just want to make sure I've got it clear

Attack power only diminishes if you HIT the opponent with the attack right? It won't lower if you spam the attack and miss them?

Also if the game remembers the last 10 attacks landed on the opponent does that count the same attack?

For example, if Pikachu uses F Smash 10 times in a row it would become very weak, but if Pikachu hits the opponent with 10 Thunderjolts the F Smash becomes full power again? or does Pikachu have to use 10 different attacks? I.E. tilts and B moves?
Decay applies only if you hit them, yes. missing them does not decay the attack.

If you hit with 10 fsmashes, then 10 jabs, your fsmash will be full strenght again.

That's a pretty arbitrary looking forumula for attack decay. How did you come up with it?
By recording how the % an attack would do after each consecutive hit, then comparing that against the base damage. I did this for several strong single hit attacks, ensuring I hit with the same part/ timing. I averaged those data together, then used an exponetial regression to find the %decay of the base power. I then made sure it made sense with the original data, which it did.

While I don't beleive that to be the exact formula used by the game, it's extremely accurate (R^2 of .997), and it makes sense, since the Decay is an exponential one.

Is this why crouch canceling doesn't work now? I was always under the impression that crouch canceling was a direct result of ASDI into the ground. Anyways, good post - one of the most intelligent I've read.
Crouch canceling was actually it's own mechanic. An ASDI into the ground resulted in a different effect called "grounding" the attack. Typically one CC'd and grounded attacks at the same time, but the grounding effect doesn't break as easily as a CC. A CC is very distinctly it's own mechanic because it minimizes knockback, and 1/2's stun (and hitlag IIRC).

edit:
scotu, I'm pretty sure that shield hitting results neither in diminishing attack power nor in attack power recharging. Same goes for hitting projectiles. Add that in maybe?
Hitting your opponent's shield is not hitting them, nor is hitting a projectile, so what I said is still accurate.

Anyone know about hitting parts of the stage though? I'll have to try that out tomorrow.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I have a question:
Why did you repost stuff found in stickies in the Melee-forum? 90% of your post consisted of recycled stuff from that sticky.

It's pretty clear you Copy + Pasted it right off as your post calls clashing "Clanking" (the game no longer clanks, there's actually no sound when attacks clash).

Anyway, you forgot one thing:
In rare cases, two ground moves can actually both hit. That's right, even though both hitboxes collide, both players take the hit (instead of clashing). From what I can tell, this appears to happen with a greater frequency in Brawl.
 

mugwhump

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
382
Excellent, excellent thread! Great job! :bee:
Maybe this could become the thread on general brawl mechanics everyone's been wiaiting for? :bee:
If so, I made a thread about hitstun states on the ground and what attacks can trip opponents that seems closely related. You could add that. :bee:

Automatic Smash DI
Automatic Smash DI, many Melee players would be familiar with, is NOT IN THIS GAME.
Did you do your testing on a smart bomb? :bee: Cuz I'm not so sure about this.
Just get your character stuck in anyone's infinite A attack(like Falco's) and hold the stick in any direction. You'll move in that direction. Unless that's just regular DI? It doesn't look like it, though.

You should add info on c-stick DI, too. You can't ASDI with the c-stick, but you can SDI with the c-stick now. However, you can't c-stick SDI in the direction that the other stick's being held in (so mashing both alternately might not be as effective, I dunno).

Attack Power Decay
This game "punishes" the repeated use of the same attack by decreasing BOTH the DAMAGE and KNOCKBACK a move does.

Attack Queue
The game keeps track of this by having an "Attack Queue" where it remembers the last 9 (although it may be 10) attacks that you landed on your opponent. If your attacks are getting weaker than you would like, just hit with several other attacks, and then your other moves will soon be back to full strength.

Decay Amount
A move has a base damage and Knockback. It then counts the number of times that move is in the attack queue, and has an exponential decay that it applies to the strength. The current formula I have found seems to be pretty accurate:
damage dealt = [94.424e^(-0.0991x)] * (base damage)
where x is the # of times that move is in the attack queue.
Wow @ that formula... that's some pretty hard science, heh. :bee:

I did a lot of science on this myself, and I can confirm the que is at least 10 long (Ike's full charge B decreases by 2% after 10 other attacks). I strongly suspect it may be longer, but the reduction from an attack done 11 moves ago will be so small we might not notice it (it might even be eliminated by rounding). Does anyone know a more damaging move than Ike's fully charged B? I might use that to test :bee:

One thing I KNOW your formula is wrong about is that it doesn't account for an attack's position in the queue. Attacks further back in the queue will cause a smaller diminishing effect than more recent attacks. :bee:


Edit: Yes, hitting parts of the stage does indeed reduce attack power. I made a big post about diminishing returns with lots of data before, you can find it in the stickied 'advanced techniques' thread. :bee:
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
I have a question:
Why did you repost stuff found in stickies in the Melee-forum? 90% of your post consisted of recycled stuff from that sticky.

It's pretty clear you Copy + Pasted it right off as your post calls clashing "Clanking" (the game no longer clanks, there's actually no sound when attacks clash).

Anyway, you forgot one thing:
In rare cases, two ground moves can actually both hit. That's right, even though both hitboxes collide, both players take the hit (instead of clashing). From what I can tell, this appears to happen with a greater frequency in Brawl.
Much of this is based off of common knowledge from Melee. However, this is the brawl boards, I am talking about brawl, and there is not (yet) a sticky about any of this.

I have not read the stickey'd melee thread you're referring to in several months, nor did I c-p it. Anything that happens to be worded in a way that makes it look copy-pasted is by some coincidence.

Your logic is also very flawed. Because my post and some post from Melee call it clanking I obviously copied it. Obviously. It couldn't be the fact that, maybe, I knew the ins and outs of Melee physics better than the average tournament player and that I still use melee terminology?

btw, i never said ground moves can't trade. That's a factor of implied priority. You'll also note that considering I just coined the terms "intrinsic priority" and "implied priority", i doubt i just copied a melee thread.

Perhaps you should learn to read and think before insulting people ORIGINAL WORK/ research for NO REASON.

I hope I answered your question.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Excellent, excellent thread! Great job! :bee:
Maybe this could become the thread on general brawl mechanics everyone's been wiaiting for? :bee:
If so, I made a thread about hitstun states on the ground and what attacks can trip opponents that seems closely related. You could add that. :bee:


Did you do your testing on a smart bomb? :bee: Cuz I'm not so sure about this.
Just get your character stuck in anyone's infinite A attack(like Falco's) and hold the stick in any direction. You'll move in that direction. Unless that's just regular DI? It doesn't look like it, though.

You should add info on c-stick DI, too. You can't ASDI with the c-stick, but you can SDI with the c-stick now. However, you can't c-stick SDI in the direction that the other stick's being held in (so mashing both alternately might not be as effective, I dunno).


Wow @ that formula... that's some pretty hard science, heh. :bee:

I did a lot of science on this myself, and I can confirm the que is at least 10 long (Ike's full charge B decreases by 2% after 10 other attacks). I strongly suspect it may be longer, but the reduction from an attack done 11 moves ago will be so small we might not notice it (it might even be eliminated by rounding). Does anyone know a more damaging move than Ike's fully charged B? I might use that to test :bee:

One thing I KNOW your formula is wrong about is that it doesn't account for an attack's position in the queue. Attacks further back in the queue will cause a smaller diminishing effect than more recent attacks. :bee:
I'm looking over your thread now. I'll look closer into the ASDI, but i'd only noticed results from SDI out of rapid-a's.

I know the attack queue is no more than 10 because i know someone who discovered how to make DDD's chainthrow an infinite by use of grab attacks to dilute the queue, and it hinges on the queue being only 9-10 attacks long.

I was under the impression that position in the queue didn't matter, since I'd hit with 1 attack, then did 8 others, then did the first again and got the same reduction as I would've doing them consecutively, although, i'll look into that again tomorrow as well.

In addition, I tested with not only with Ike's full eruption, but the falcon punch, the warlock punch, the volcano kick, and the monkey punch. Also, damage less than 1% is still kept track of fyi.
 

mugwhump

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
382
I'm looking over your thread now. I'll look closer into the ASDI, but i'd only noticed results from SDI out of rapid-a's.
Yeah, I'm not positive about ASDI... the only time I've noticed it at all is in those infinite attacks. Needs more investigating.

I know the attack queue is no more than 10 because i know someone who discovered how to make DDD's chainthrow an infinite by use of grab attacks to dilute the queue, and it hinges on the queue being only 9-10 attacks long.

I was under the impression that position in the queue didn't matter, since I'd hit with 1 attack, then did 8 others, then did the first again and got the same reduction as I would've doing them consecutively, although, i'll look into that again tomorrow as well.
I suppose the queue does have to end eventually... test if there's any reduction in Ike's charged Eruption after 11 moves, then we can be sure. :bee:

I'm pretty positive that position in the queue affects damage reduction, though. For example, Ike's forward smash does 23% then 19% if done twice in a row, but only reduces to 21% or 22% if done after 7 other moves.

In addition, I tested with not only with Ike's full eruption, but the falcon punch, the warlock punch, the volcano kick, and the monkey punch. Also, damage less than 1% is still kept track of fyi.
Is there anything more powerful than that, to minimize the effects of rounding (and the very slight damage randomization)? I know Marth's counter suffers diminishing returns (regardless of the staleness of what it's countering)... perhaps we could get a super-high damage G&W oil spill to test? :bee:

Edit: Also, you should add stuff on teching. I think this is the thread where it should go.
 

ArchangelRaziel

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
39
There is a factor I know of that you haven't considered. Part of the implied priority is factored in by what stage of an a attack each character is in. This doesn't do as much in Brawl as it did in Melee, but it still has a small inclusion. (i.e. an attack whose priority outranks another will occasionally clash instead of overpowering, when the lesser attack was executed first.)

Also, the range of hitboxes also can factor, which i didn't see any reference to. (This ought to be obvious, but you'd be suprised. A character who has a very short-range attack with godly priority will occasionally lose over a weak, distant attack whose hitbox hits the character before the high priority character's hitbox gets to have any effect on the situation.)
 

mugwhump

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
382
Okay did testing, position in cue absolutely does matter. The most powerful attack I can get is Ike's counter of G&W's bucket after absorbing 3 PK flashes, which does 78 damage. So try testing that. I dunno if I can do it without multiple hands. :bee:

And I'm sure ASDI is in. Falco's infinite A normally pushes you straight away, but holding towards him moves you that way. This rules out regular DI, and it wasn't SDI, and they registered as consecutive hits, so it wasn't air control. I can't think of anything it could be other than ASDI. I'm pretty sure I can see the effects of ASDI on normal attacks, too. It might just be hard to notice because...

You can't DI to keep yourself grounded anymore! It never works in any situation (or at least, I can't get it to work).

Also, that stuff I said about not being able to c-stick SDI in the same direction you're holding the analogue stick is poo-poo. :bee:
 

mugwhump

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
382
Actually, maybe a final smash would do more damage? I don't know if final smashes have diminishing returns, though... does anyone know? :bee:
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Catch is you'd need a strong single hit move, and only marth's comes to mind, but it doesn't do that much.
 

H0lic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
17
Location
TX
This is a very informative thread. It corrected a few mistakes I've been making for a while now :)
 

syndicate

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
107
Location
Boston, MA (also NYC)
Can you give us a scenario to better clarify all this? I think a video with slow motion moments upon being hit and what happens when you move the control stick in "this" direction would happen.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
I'll see what I can do about a video, although I won't have access to the game for the next several days.
 

Rufeo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
59
This was a huge help. Thanks a lot. I was using DI the wrong way the whole time.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
So, how does Marth's side b factor into diminishing attacks? Does each hit count as a seprerate hit? If so, does each hit count as the same move, Would hitting with the first and second hits consecutively do less cumulative damage than hitting with the first hit, refreshing your attacks, and then hitting with just the second hit? If it doesn't that would imply that each hit of Marth's side B counts as seperate attacks, and that it could be used to very quickly refresh his other moves.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
I have not yet tested the affects of multiple hit attacks like that, although, each hit of a jab combo (haven't tested rapid A's - only 3 hit jabs), and 3 hit jabs count for 3 attacks, so that tends to lead me to believe that attacks like marth's side-b count as 4 (potentially more) hits. the link/ toon link fsmash probably counts for 2 attacks as well. I don't know how multiple hit attacks (like zelda's nair) affect the count though.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
This just in: The player closest to P1 has a very slight advantage in terms of priority (as was the case in Melee).
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
New Update:
Meteors not in brawl! All downward sending attacks are true spikes. They just have a small amount of hitstun (like all other attacks).


Meteors (in the way they were in melee) are removed from this game. The term Meteor is simply a needless classification of attacks that have downward trajectories, but are in no way different from any other attacks. There is no Meteor Canceling, it just seems like it because there is just a really small amount of hitstun (like all other attacks).
 

Christova

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
57
Location
Lafayette, Indiana
This thread should probably be stickied. I started looking at it and I'm applying what I'm learning to characters that I never used before with much success. It's amazing how much you can learn about mastering characters from all of this. Thanks! :)
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Update on Smash DI:

You cannot SDI downward if you were on the ground while hit, even if you SDI up first.

You cannot Tech during hitlag (even if you SDI first), ruling out Edge Teching.
 

mugwhump

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
382
Another vote for sticky! :bee:

And yeah, that's an important note about SDI. SDI can't change what hitstate an attack puts you in (HUARGH, WHARRGARBL, or airborne).

HOWEVER, I'm quite sure you can SDI sideways to make yourself bounce off walls, while either HUARGHed or airborne (but not while you're in a WHARRGARBL'd state, cuz then you don't wallbounce). In brawl, I don't think you can press L to tech before the attack hits you (which is how we usually ledgeteched in melee). But I think it might be possible to press L on the one frame after hitlag to tech. I'm pretty sure I've done this... but of course, a 1-frame window make it hard to test.

You should try and figure out how teching works now, it's clearly different and it's driving me nuts. :bee:

Of course, this is probably a moot point, since crazy edge hugging would render ledge-teching mostly useless anyways. :bee:
 
Top Bottom