I agree with VisetheStompy about Stars and maybe the Golden Hammer, but I see no problem with curry or the normal hammer. The normal hammer breaks often enough and does a small enough amount of damage to make it not completely game breaking, and curry just adds a little extra damage to your attacks. Neither do some incredibly god-like amount of damage.
-
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Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (UPDATE 1/15: MAJOR TX TOURNEY INFO)
- Thread starter Jack Kieser
- Start date
nesdude128
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2008
- Messages
- 5
I'd love to help out anyway I could in this project.
I've been lurking SmashBoards for a little bit, tried some competitive play in SSBM and found that I enjoy the randomness and additional skill to deal with items and the randomness that comes along with them a bit more than the strict competitive play/total skill based gaming (although I do respect and appreciate what the pros of Smash do, playing with no items makes for a tough and interesting match, and really shows what someone can do with a character)
Friend code should be under my name if I set it up right - I'll add everyone else in. PM/AIM/MSN/email me if you have something you'd like me to try or to setup, I'll see what I can do. I'll try to check this thread every day to see what comes up - I'd love to see a league setup with some item rulesets.
-nesdude
EDIT: Forgot to mention, I have access to a video capture device (Video Out >>> Sony HC-96 >>> Laptop over Firewire) that I would be more than willing to record 3 minute matches and upload them to YouTube or wherever. The quality isn't the best (it's a little fuzzy), but it should be more than enough. My problem is that I really don't know how I should test items, so if someone is willing to give me a push in the right direction, I'd love to help.
I've been lurking SmashBoards for a little bit, tried some competitive play in SSBM and found that I enjoy the randomness and additional skill to deal with items and the randomness that comes along with them a bit more than the strict competitive play/total skill based gaming (although I do respect and appreciate what the pros of Smash do, playing with no items makes for a tough and interesting match, and really shows what someone can do with a character)
Friend code should be under my name if I set it up right - I'll add everyone else in. PM/AIM/MSN/email me if you have something you'd like me to try or to setup, I'll see what I can do. I'll try to check this thread every day to see what comes up - I'd love to see a league setup with some item rulesets.
-nesdude
EDIT: Forgot to mention, I have access to a video capture device (Video Out >>> Sony HC-96 >>> Laptop over Firewire) that I would be more than willing to record 3 minute matches and upload them to YouTube or wherever. The quality isn't the best (it's a little fuzzy), but it should be more than enough. My problem is that I really don't know how I should test items, so if someone is willing to give me a push in the right direction, I'd love to help.
RBinator
Smash Journeyman
I'm not here to bash the mission statement, but I can't help but feel that I see a flaw or two in how this is planned to be set up.
The only difference I see between this and regular tournaments is allowing certain items and possibly more stages. I know there has been much talk about these tournaments being a stepping stone for "casual" players to get into the more hardcore tournaments, but the issue I see is, what's stopping a pro or two from coming and destroying everyone in a tournament like this? Nothing about skill level was really mention, just allowing certain items. If prize money is on the line and money is put into a pool, how is the tournament gonna be taken lightly when there's a very good chance the matches will be played very seriously? I can't see much lightheaded play when something is at stake.
Like I said, I didn't came to bash the idea, I just wanna hear some answers to what I think might be possible flaws and issues. As for the term casual, I also have issues with that, but I rather not get into something that has already been discussed here a bit.
The only difference I see between this and regular tournaments is allowing certain items and possibly more stages. I know there has been much talk about these tournaments being a stepping stone for "casual" players to get into the more hardcore tournaments, but the issue I see is, what's stopping a pro or two from coming and destroying everyone in a tournament like this? Nothing about skill level was really mention, just allowing certain items. If prize money is on the line and money is put into a pool, how is the tournament gonna be taken lightly when there's a very good chance the matches will be played very seriously? I can't see much lightheaded play when something is at stake.
Like I said, I didn't came to bash the idea, I just wanna hear some answers to what I think might be possible flaws and issues. As for the term casual, I also have issues with that, but I rather not get into something that has already been discussed here a bit.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Don't worry about it; I'm glad to answer questions if it helps.
As for the differences in playstyles for tournaments... you're right, there aren't that many tactical differences. Items would be included, as well as (most likely) more stages, which on the surface doesn't seem to be different enough from traditional tournament play to justify a project like this... except that just the introduction of items (let alone anything else) drastically changes the style of play. Smash Bros. is an interesting series in that minor changes to a playstyle can have drastic repercussions when it comes to tactics used in a match.
For instance, take almost any other fighter in existence. Ban a move, technique, or even a whole character, and most likely the nature of the game won't change too much. Add, for the sake of argument, items into tournament Smash. All of the sudden, things change. Camping becomes less effective. Certain combos or infinites become much more difficult to implement, and much less effective when they can be used. Players have to change their very way of thinking, just by adding something as (in terms of Smash, at least) small as a few items. Of course, since item tournaments are so very rare, a lot of this is conjecture, but it is, at least, conjecture based in sound logic.
On the subject of 'pro' players thrashing everyone else... has that affected the current tournament scene? Apparently not, since people do join the current scene as it is. The transition from usual casual play to usual tournament play is a difficult one, though. You have to abandon items. You have to abandon some stages. You have to rely on many things you've never even knew existed (advanced techs, for example), and learning those things can be a chore in-and-of themselves. People join despite all of this... but many more people are turned off and end up never even going to a tournament because they can't see the point.
The 'CCL', however, would be a tournament league that people won't need to drastically change in order to succeed in. Sure, you still have to be good in order to win, and you have to get better in order to ever advance... which is why we want more experienced players to join in, as well. Remember, the 'CCL' was conceived in part to be a stepping stone for some to join the traditional tournament scene, and in order to introduce people to that scene, it'd be nice if some higher-level players played to show their stuff as well. As for the stakes of the game, I talked about this earlier on in this thread. It bears repetition, though, so I'd be happy to say it again.
As of now, tournament Smash has some relatively high stakes, which is part of why people are so cut-throat when they play: they are playing for $1,200 (or whatever). But who says a tournament has to have high-stakes to be fun or to encourage competition? If the stakes are lower, then it becomes less of a big deal if you lose, and the fun factor becomes more of an important facet of play. After all, if in order to win you have to bust out some ridiculous moves, but those moves only net you $200, it becomes less important to use those moves (whatever they may be). Besides, if in order to win, you piss everyone off, they will be less willing to play you again.
As it stands, yes, the 'CCL' is not flawless... but neither is any other way of playing. All we can do is try to reduce the flaws as much as possible, and so far, this is what we have found to be both the most balanced and the most inclusive. We haven't even had a real chance to test our theories out, because we haven't had any official tournaments yet, so, like I said, anything any of us says is merely conjecture. Time, as always, will tell.
Oh, and the name, like it says in the OP, is still a temp name; no one has thought up anything more creative, more accurate, or more catchy as of now, so for now that's what we'll call it.
As for the differences in playstyles for tournaments... you're right, there aren't that many tactical differences. Items would be included, as well as (most likely) more stages, which on the surface doesn't seem to be different enough from traditional tournament play to justify a project like this... except that just the introduction of items (let alone anything else) drastically changes the style of play. Smash Bros. is an interesting series in that minor changes to a playstyle can have drastic repercussions when it comes to tactics used in a match.
For instance, take almost any other fighter in existence. Ban a move, technique, or even a whole character, and most likely the nature of the game won't change too much. Add, for the sake of argument, items into tournament Smash. All of the sudden, things change. Camping becomes less effective. Certain combos or infinites become much more difficult to implement, and much less effective when they can be used. Players have to change their very way of thinking, just by adding something as (in terms of Smash, at least) small as a few items. Of course, since item tournaments are so very rare, a lot of this is conjecture, but it is, at least, conjecture based in sound logic.
On the subject of 'pro' players thrashing everyone else... has that affected the current tournament scene? Apparently not, since people do join the current scene as it is. The transition from usual casual play to usual tournament play is a difficult one, though. You have to abandon items. You have to abandon some stages. You have to rely on many things you've never even knew existed (advanced techs, for example), and learning those things can be a chore in-and-of themselves. People join despite all of this... but many more people are turned off and end up never even going to a tournament because they can't see the point.
The 'CCL', however, would be a tournament league that people won't need to drastically change in order to succeed in. Sure, you still have to be good in order to win, and you have to get better in order to ever advance... which is why we want more experienced players to join in, as well. Remember, the 'CCL' was conceived in part to be a stepping stone for some to join the traditional tournament scene, and in order to introduce people to that scene, it'd be nice if some higher-level players played to show their stuff as well. As for the stakes of the game, I talked about this earlier on in this thread. It bears repetition, though, so I'd be happy to say it again.
As of now, tournament Smash has some relatively high stakes, which is part of why people are so cut-throat when they play: they are playing for $1,200 (or whatever). But who says a tournament has to have high-stakes to be fun or to encourage competition? If the stakes are lower, then it becomes less of a big deal if you lose, and the fun factor becomes more of an important facet of play. After all, if in order to win you have to bust out some ridiculous moves, but those moves only net you $200, it becomes less important to use those moves (whatever they may be). Besides, if in order to win, you piss everyone off, they will be less willing to play you again.
As it stands, yes, the 'CCL' is not flawless... but neither is any other way of playing. All we can do is try to reduce the flaws as much as possible, and so far, this is what we have found to be both the most balanced and the most inclusive. We haven't even had a real chance to test our theories out, because we haven't had any official tournaments yet, so, like I said, anything any of us says is merely conjecture. Time, as always, will tell.
Oh, and the name, like it says in the OP, is still a temp name; no one has thought up anything more creative, more accurate, or more catchy as of now, so for now that's what we'll call it.
Chicobo329
Smash Cadet
As I said in an earlier thread, this looks like a minor league of sorts to me. This could also potentially raise up future smashers in a higher tournament scene and beyond! Why not call this a Farm System? (akin to the Farm leagues from Baseball games). I guess you could say we're planting new players or something X^D Just a thought to throw out there for the name.
ScubaGoomba
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2007
- Messages
- 153
I think it sounds like a good idea, but there are certain concerns to be considered, which have mostly all been addressed. My roommate's girlfriend was thinking about setting up a fundraiser/Brawl tournament at our University, so I'll try to see if we can get it with just these rules; prizes will probably just be gift cards.
Also, as a side note, I think Smash Balls should be considered for ban. While they are a staple new item in Brawl, just from some fun play with my friends, I've noticed that they tend to be unfair. Even friends of mine who are all about all items on maximum frequency think that the Smash Balls seem to be a bit too unbalancing for the game. The other items seem to be good, though, especially the Dragoon. It's like a Final Smash, but everyone gets the same move and there's more of a game involved in getting it.
As a second side note, I think items should be on the lowest frequency. While it is well and good that items help to keep the game randomized, my friends and I have found that stages get cluttered with items even on the Medium setting.
Also, as a side note, I think Smash Balls should be considered for ban. While they are a staple new item in Brawl, just from some fun play with my friends, I've noticed that they tend to be unfair. Even friends of mine who are all about all items on maximum frequency think that the Smash Balls seem to be a bit too unbalancing for the game. The other items seem to be good, though, especially the Dragoon. It's like a Final Smash, but everyone gets the same move and there's more of a game involved in getting it.
As a second side note, I think items should be on the lowest frequency. While it is well and good that items help to keep the game randomized, my friends and I have found that stages get cluttered with items even on the Medium setting.
nesdude128
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2008
- Messages
- 5
Alright, so here's a quick test match showing two things: one, that my camera works well enough, and two, that with computer players, Dragoon is a very interesting weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scuzoo3neLQ
Mario(CPU9) vs. Mario(CPU7)
Final Destination
(Containers) (Blast Box) (Healers) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) and (Deku Nut) disabled
Low Item Spawn
The red Mario is the level 9, while the white Mario is the level 7. As Jack noted, the level 9 seems to always have some sort of edge. Even with items, the level 7 has a hard time towards the end of the match to do damage.
One interesting thing to point out about this match is how Dragoon fits in. The first piece doesn't spawn in until there is 1:34 left in the match; the second and third pieces not spawning in until 1:11 and 0:50 respectively. The pieces are juggled around, but the level 9 eventually gets everything and uses it at 0:30 . Due to the near insta-kill, level 7 (or an equivalent human player) could have gotten a few hits after spawn on the level 9, making it a more even match towards the end.
I'm not quite sure what this all amounts to, but I'm sure someone will be interested in this. I personally enjoy the Dragoon, giving everyone a fair chance because you still need the 3 parts, which others can hold onto, unlike the one-shot Final Smash.
-nesdude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scuzoo3neLQ
Mario(CPU9) vs. Mario(CPU7)
Final Destination
(Containers) (Blast Box) (Healers) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) and (Deku Nut) disabled
Low Item Spawn
The red Mario is the level 9, while the white Mario is the level 7. As Jack noted, the level 9 seems to always have some sort of edge. Even with items, the level 7 has a hard time towards the end of the match to do damage.
One interesting thing to point out about this match is how Dragoon fits in. The first piece doesn't spawn in until there is 1:34 left in the match; the second and third pieces not spawning in until 1:11 and 0:50 respectively. The pieces are juggled around, but the level 9 eventually gets everything and uses it at 0:30 . Due to the near insta-kill, level 7 (or an equivalent human player) could have gotten a few hits after spawn on the level 9, making it a more even match towards the end.
I'm not quite sure what this all amounts to, but I'm sure someone will be interested in this. I personally enjoy the Dragoon, giving everyone a fair chance because you still need the 3 parts, which others can hold onto, unlike the one-shot Final Smash.
-nesdude
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
It seems that a low rate of item spawn is ideal, as the items come up enough to have an effect on battle, but not so much that they are the deciding factor. I also like how the fight for the Dragoon plays out, unlike the fight for the Smash Ball. We shouldn't think about banning the Smash Ball until we do some actual human tests (I'm thinking about setting up a 'CCL' online test tournament in the near future: stay tuned), but if we keep in the Dragoon, I think it would be an even trade; we could even reserve Smash Balls for 2v2 matches only, when Team Attack would be on, thus causing a little more thought when using them.
...I like that, actually.
Thank you, nesdude. That test was very helpful, I think. (And also so cool to see something titled 'CCL Test' on Youtube.)
...I like that, actually.
Thank you, nesdude. That test was very helpful, I think. (And also so cool to see something titled 'CCL Test' on Youtube.
)
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
isnt casual competition an oxymoron?
lol, but really, gl in your item search, i wont be playing item matches regardless but i know theres a few who would like it.
lol, but really, gl in your item search, i wont be playing item matches regardless but i know theres a few who would like it.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I went ahead and added a link in the OP to kirbykid's incredibly well-written essay entitled 'What Kind of Smasher Are You?', which explains why 'Casual Competitive' is not an oxymoron, something I've been hearing a lot of lately and something that was discussed earlier in this thread (IIRC). Hope that helps, because I'd like to move on from that particular subject matter.
darktyco
Smash Rookie
This looks great- I have never played Smash competitively and really dig the idea of a "stepping stone" type league. Would you predict that the league will be populated with other competitive noobs such as myself, or is this just going to be an "items-on" league with no real difference in player makeup?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Alright... for some reason, the forum said that there was a new post on page 7... but I couldn't get to it until I posted here, first. That was odd.
To answer your question, darktyco, we've never tried anything like this before, so we really don't know what the player makeup will ultimately be. Personally, I'm not anticipating many current tournament-goers will come on a regular basis to any item tournaments, simply because that's not how most of them feel comfortable playing... but I'm sure there are some out there who enjoy item-play enough (and are open-minded enough) to join in. As for everyone else, I've personally heard many votes of support and good-will from tons of casual players who wish to play a serious tournament match with items on. I'm anticipating that once everything is said and done, and we get the word out of course, there will be quite the following to item-based tournament play.
To answer your question, darktyco, we've never tried anything like this before, so we really don't know what the player makeup will ultimately be. Personally, I'm not anticipating many current tournament-goers will come on a regular basis to any item tournaments, simply because that's not how most of them feel comfortable playing... but I'm sure there are some out there who enjoy item-play enough (and are open-minded enough) to join in. As for everyone else, I've personally heard many votes of support and good-will from tons of casual players who wish to play a serious tournament match with items on. I'm anticipating that once everything is said and done, and we get the word out of course, there will be quite the following to item-based tournament play.
nesdude128
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2008
- Messages
- 5
So some more tests and two new videos from me!
======
Match 1
======
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J1yRjgtnwv4
Green Link (CPU9) vs. Red Link (CPU7)
Battlefield
(Containers) (Blast Box) (Healers) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) and (Deku Nut) disabled
Low Item Spawn
Not TOO interesting of a match, but it shows a few items interacting with each other. Number one, the Assist Trophy. Sure, some AT's can be an instant/one hit KO, but as this video shows, some can be dodged and it doesn't seem to have too much of an effect on the outcome of the match. Number two, the Smash Ball. Personally, I don't like how it was used to gain a big upperhand for the CPU7, causing him to equal out the game towards the end, with the CPU9 not being able to do ANYTHING about it.
Food for thought: AT's might be okay, but I'm leery of Smash Balls. Obviously more testing must be done first, but... thoughts?
======
Match 2
======
http://youtube.com/watch?v=k5WvDF6eXyI
Pink Kirby (CPU9) vs. Yellow Kirby (CPU7)
Battlefield
(Containers) (Blast Box) (Healers) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) and (Deku Nut) disabled
Low Item Spawn
Here's where the match got interesting. Even with low item spawns, *2* Smash Balls appeared. Did they tip the balance of the match? Kind of, but not really. First Smash Ball spawns in at 2:24 remaining, is and (through a bank hit from CPU9) picked up by CPU7 and promptly used. CPU9 was at low enough damage that it didn't actually KO him. At 1:50, a SECOND Smash Ball appears and grabbed by CPU9. CPU9 promptly KO's CPU7. Are Smash Balls fair? Not really, it seems, but player data would show this better.
Two other small points of intrest - PokeBalls (like AT's, could go either way), and the SuperSpicyCurry. The Curry is more of an annoyance in the match, but it seems overpowered. The PokeBalls might have to be on the same level of regulation as AT's.
-------------------------------------------------------------
So that's what I got. Take a look, see what's going on, what else that I've missed that works/doesn't work well.
-nesdude
======
Match 1
======
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J1yRjgtnwv4
Green Link (CPU9) vs. Red Link (CPU7)
Battlefield
(Containers) (Blast Box) (Healers) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) and (Deku Nut) disabled
Low Item Spawn
Not TOO interesting of a match, but it shows a few items interacting with each other. Number one, the Assist Trophy. Sure, some AT's can be an instant/one hit KO, but as this video shows, some can be dodged and it doesn't seem to have too much of an effect on the outcome of the match. Number two, the Smash Ball. Personally, I don't like how it was used to gain a big upperhand for the CPU7, causing him to equal out the game towards the end, with the CPU9 not being able to do ANYTHING about it.
Food for thought: AT's might be okay, but I'm leery of Smash Balls. Obviously more testing must be done first, but... thoughts?
======
Match 2
======
http://youtube.com/watch?v=k5WvDF6eXyI
Pink Kirby (CPU9) vs. Yellow Kirby (CPU7)
Battlefield
(Containers) (Blast Box) (Healers) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) and (Deku Nut) disabled
Low Item Spawn
Here's where the match got interesting. Even with low item spawns, *2* Smash Balls appeared. Did they tip the balance of the match? Kind of, but not really. First Smash Ball spawns in at 2:24 remaining, is and (through a bank hit from CPU9) picked up by CPU7 and promptly used. CPU9 was at low enough damage that it didn't actually KO him. At 1:50, a SECOND Smash Ball appears and grabbed by CPU9. CPU9 promptly KO's CPU7. Are Smash Balls fair? Not really, it seems, but player data would show this better.
Two other small points of intrest - PokeBalls (like AT's, could go either way), and the SuperSpicyCurry. The Curry is more of an annoyance in the match, but it seems overpowered. The PokeBalls might have to be on the same level of regulation as AT's.
-------------------------------------------------------------
So that's what I got. Take a look, see what's going on, what else that I've missed that works/doesn't work well.
-nesdude
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Haha... so I'm slow. After reading nesdude's latest tests, I was thinking, "****it, if only I had a capture card so I could record the replays of my tests, too," all the while forgetting that I can (as far as I know) SEND people replays. nesdude, if I send you some replays of my tests, would you mind capture-carding them and uploading them for me?
nesdude128
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2008
- Messages
- 5
I'd have no problem with that Jack, as it doesn't take me all that long to capture and upload the clips. Try sending me a replay when you can. It won't be done tonight as I have a concert to go to, but from tomorrow afternoon until March 30th, I'll be on a break from school and can dedicate some time into recording/testing/whatever.
I guess I'll throw this out to anyone else who's helping with the CCL - if you send me an email or a PM with your Brawl code, add me to friends in Brawl and send me a replay as well, I can try my best to get a replay recorded and uploaded. The more you help here, the more apt I'll be to get a quick turnaround on your replay, so use that as an incentive if you REALLY want to others to see your footage.
Questions, comments, whatever, email, PM, or post here.
-nesdude
I guess I'll throw this out to anyone else who's helping with the CCL - if you send me an email or a PM with your Brawl code, add me to friends in Brawl and send me a replay as well, I can try my best to get a replay recorded and uploaded. The more you help here, the more apt I'll be to get a quick turnaround on your replay, so use that as an incentive if you REALLY want to others to see your footage.
Questions, comments, whatever, email, PM, or post here.
-nesdude
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Alright, I finished another round of testing tonight; this time, we're doing 2v2! Let's get to it.
--------------
2v2 Test Set
--------------
GLOBAL VARIABLES
Teams:
Blue Team - Pit(lvl 9) and Ganondorf(lvl 9)
vs.
Red Team - Pit(lvl 7) and Ganondorf(lvl 7)
Stage: Battlefield
Rules: 3:00, No Stock, Team Attack ON
Items Disabled (for ITEM SET): (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Superspicy Curry) (Bomb-omb) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut)
---------------------
Control Set Results
---------------------
Blue Team Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 3
B. Pit Kill Count = 18
B. Ganon Kill Count = 24
Red Team Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
R. Pit Kill Count = 18
B. Ganon Kill Count = 13
CONTROL VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------
ITEM SET RESULTS
--------------------
Blue Team Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
B. Pit Kill Count = 22
B. Ganon Kill Count = 28
Red Team Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
R. Pit Kill Count = 12
B. Ganon Kill Count = 23
ITEM VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------------
2v2 TEST CONCLUSIONS
--------------------------
When I started this test, I was still a little skeptical of what the results might be. I will admit that I was worried that 2v2 might exaggerate some of the balance problems past what we could anticipate or handle... but from the results of the test, I can now say my fears were quite unfounded.
The numerical data from the two sets matches up almost perfectly; in fact, they match up more closely than the data from my previous 1v1 test! This will be more evident when you watch footage from the sets, but this is due, I think, in part to Team Attack. I'll discuss this in greater depth later.
The choice to turn on Smash Balls AND all the summons was a tough one to make, but in the end it was a good decision. I learned a lot from this test about the mechanics of how summons, Smash Balls, and the Dragoon play a role in 2v2 matches, and they actually work partly how you would expect, and partly how you wouldn't.
Smash Balls are interesting items in that they shift the entire focus of battle, as well as give the holder access to (frankly) gamebreaking strength... in 1v1 and FFA. Team matches, however, hold an interesting surprise that gimps the Final Smash to some degree, but only if Team Attack is on. Many might say, "A human player would never hit his teammate with a FS, and in some cases makes it easier to land a FS." This is true, but only to a small degree. In timed matches, team kills come with a heavy price: both the killer and the killed lose a point. Almost every single Final Smash in the game has some AOE property that makes it difficult to land certain Final Smashes without seriously endangering the teammate; even Marth's Final Smash can hit people directly around the target, and so if your teammate just happens to be around your opponent, you might have a difficult situation on your hands. This is the beauty of Team Attack 2v2.
Summons and AT's have the same problem as Final Smashes: Pokemon and Assists attack indiscriminately due to Team Attack, and will seek out your partner just as quickly as they will seek out your foes. Using Pokemon and Assists come at a heavy risk.
The Dragoon adds another layer to the battle for parts: both teammates holding a part of the Dragoon. Sure, it may be easy to assign one teammate 'Dragoon duty', but what if you're closer to a piece than he is and your foe is closing in on the piece? Most people would go ahead and get the piece in place of his teammate so that the enemy doesn't get it... but then the problem arises on how to get that part to the teammate. After all, you can't willingly drop Dragoon pieces; pieces HAVE to be beaten out of you. Do you hold onto the piece? Or let your teammate with two pieces beat you up a little to get the last piece? Risk dying yourself so that he might have a chance to kill with it?
Oh, the choices.
Overall, a very productive round of testing. I think this proves that Final Smashes and summons may very well have a place in 2v2. It also shows that items are nowhere near as gamebreaking as people assume they are, at least in team battles.
One more interesting note, however: even though I had items turned off, the Red Team still was able to get a Pity FS every now and then. I'm not sure whether this has to do with how I turned off the items (all at once, instead of one-by-one) or if you simply can't turn off Pity Final Smashes...
--------------
2v2 Test Set
--------------
GLOBAL VARIABLES
Teams:
Blue Team - Pit(lvl 9) and Ganondorf(lvl 9)
vs.
Red Team - Pit(lvl 7) and Ganondorf(lvl 7)
Stage: Battlefield
Rules: 3:00, No Stock, Team Attack ON
Items Disabled (for ITEM SET): (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Superspicy Curry) (Bomb-omb) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut)
---------------------
Control Set Results
---------------------
Blue Team Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 3
B. Pit Kill Count = 18
B. Ganon Kill Count = 24
Red Team Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
R. Pit Kill Count = 18
B. Ganon Kill Count = 13
CONTROL VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------
ITEM SET RESULTS
--------------------
Blue Team Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
B. Pit Kill Count = 22
B. Ganon Kill Count = 28
Red Team Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
R. Pit Kill Count = 12
B. Ganon Kill Count = 23
ITEM VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------------
2v2 TEST CONCLUSIONS
--------------------------
When I started this test, I was still a little skeptical of what the results might be. I will admit that I was worried that 2v2 might exaggerate some of the balance problems past what we could anticipate or handle... but from the results of the test, I can now say my fears were quite unfounded.
The numerical data from the two sets matches up almost perfectly; in fact, they match up more closely than the data from my previous 1v1 test! This will be more evident when you watch footage from the sets, but this is due, I think, in part to Team Attack. I'll discuss this in greater depth later.
The choice to turn on Smash Balls AND all the summons was a tough one to make, but in the end it was a good decision. I learned a lot from this test about the mechanics of how summons, Smash Balls, and the Dragoon play a role in 2v2 matches, and they actually work partly how you would expect, and partly how you wouldn't.
Smash Balls are interesting items in that they shift the entire focus of battle, as well as give the holder access to (frankly) gamebreaking strength... in 1v1 and FFA. Team matches, however, hold an interesting surprise that gimps the Final Smash to some degree, but only if Team Attack is on. Many might say, "A human player would never hit his teammate with a FS, and in some cases makes it easier to land a FS." This is true, but only to a small degree. In timed matches, team kills come with a heavy price: both the killer and the killed lose a point. Almost every single Final Smash in the game has some AOE property that makes it difficult to land certain Final Smashes without seriously endangering the teammate; even Marth's Final Smash can hit people directly around the target, and so if your teammate just happens to be around your opponent, you might have a difficult situation on your hands. This is the beauty of Team Attack 2v2.
Summons and AT's have the same problem as Final Smashes: Pokemon and Assists attack indiscriminately due to Team Attack, and will seek out your partner just as quickly as they will seek out your foes. Using Pokemon and Assists come at a heavy risk.
The Dragoon adds another layer to the battle for parts: both teammates holding a part of the Dragoon. Sure, it may be easy to assign one teammate 'Dragoon duty', but what if you're closer to a piece than he is and your foe is closing in on the piece? Most people would go ahead and get the piece in place of his teammate so that the enemy doesn't get it... but then the problem arises on how to get that part to the teammate. After all, you can't willingly drop Dragoon pieces; pieces HAVE to be beaten out of you. Do you hold onto the piece? Or let your teammate with two pieces beat you up a little to get the last piece? Risk dying yourself so that he might have a chance to kill with it?
Oh, the choices.
Overall, a very productive round of testing. I think this proves that Final Smashes and summons may very well have a place in 2v2. It also shows that items are nowhere near as gamebreaking as people assume they are, at least in team battles.
One more interesting note, however: even though I had items turned off, the Red Team still was able to get a Pity FS every now and then. I'm not sure whether this has to do with how I turned off the items (all at once, instead of one-by-one) or if you simply can't turn off Pity Final Smashes...
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I put this in the news post, but I thought I'd mention it here, too.
While we were waiting for Brawl, I spent a lot of time over at the Penny Arcade forums, and recently a few of their members started a site dedicated to helping Smash players worldwide get together and organize tournaments and other related events. I've been a member there for a while now, but just recently they've gotten group pages and player maps going. I figured any help is good help, so I made a 'CCL' group over on their site to give me an easier time in the future when I need to organize tournaments and get players/testers together en mass.
You can find the 'CCL' group page here.
I urge anyone who supports the project or who is planning on participating once everything is said and done to join our group there; I will be keeping the page at Crush Siblings updated at the same rate as this thread.
Thanks to everyone who has voiced their support thus far and to everyone who is helping test; it is truly appreciated.
While we were waiting for Brawl, I spent a lot of time over at the Penny Arcade forums, and recently a few of their members started a site dedicated to helping Smash players worldwide get together and organize tournaments and other related events. I've been a member there for a while now, but just recently they've gotten group pages and player maps going. I figured any help is good help, so I made a 'CCL' group over on their site to give me an easier time in the future when I need to organize tournaments and get players/testers together en mass.
You can find the 'CCL' group page here.
I urge anyone who supports the project or who is planning on participating once everything is said and done to join our group there; I will be keeping the page at Crush Siblings updated at the same rate as this thread.
Thanks to everyone who has voiced their support thus far and to everyone who is helping test; it is truly appreciated.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
Lol @ this topic still going.
Failfest 2008.
Failfest 2008.
DiamondTiger
Smash Rookie
Wow this very cool after reading all of the posts in this thread
And im a very experinced player( played smash since from a little tike to 16 years old)
I've always really want to brawl in FFA competively ,whether or not items where on
And im a very experinced player( played smash since from a little tike to 16 years old)
I've always really want to brawl in FFA competively ,whether or not items where on
DragoonXD
Smash Cadet
This is the best thing ever ^^
I've always wanted to go competitive, but I can never turn off items because it's just so much more fun. I could play Brawl for days nonstop. I never liked the "play it safe" true, competitive tourney rules. This is great for all the people who like items, and just playing for fun.
If there's anyway I can help with anything, I'd love to. I can do tests...but I can't upload any videos. At the most I could give a detailed description.
I've always wanted to go competitive, but I can never turn off items because it's just so much more fun. I could play Brawl for days nonstop. I never liked the "play it safe" true, competitive tourney rules. This is great for all the people who like items, and just playing for fun.
If there's anyway I can help with anything, I'd love to. I can do tests...but I can't upload any videos. At the most I could give a detailed description.
This is a great thread and a great concept. I'm new to the forums, but I love Smash Bros. (Will be picking up Brawl tomorrow) and the level of discussion here is top notch. I'd like to bring up a point about your use of the term "Casual Competitive".
Yes, this is a great way to describe what you are trying to do. No, it is not an oxymoron, at least by the standards you are using for those terms. Those terms, as used here, are also quite well described in the link provided in the OP.
However, think like a salesman for a minute. You have a large number of potential customers, people who like Smash Bros., like playing with items, and would like to play in a tournament environment with a different set of rules than the "tournament standard" for various reasons. For a certain portion of those people, you are shutting them down by using the phrase "Casual Competitive", when instead if it was called Item Tourney, or Jack Rules, or anything else, they would love it. You end up raising a tangential issue with a number of potential fans that requires an investment on their part (reading several pages and posts, and the risk of being ridiculed for not understanding your definitions of a word) that could be avoided entirely by a name change.
It's something worth considering as you move forward, as the system is a great one and I'd love to see more people jump on board. Not requiring a meta-game thought experiment will lower the barrier to entry to many participants.
Keep up the good work!
Yes, this is a great way to describe what you are trying to do. No, it is not an oxymoron, at least by the standards you are using for those terms. Those terms, as used here, are also quite well described in the link provided in the OP.
However, think like a salesman for a minute. You have a large number of potential customers, people who like Smash Bros., like playing with items, and would like to play in a tournament environment with a different set of rules than the "tournament standard" for various reasons. For a certain portion of those people, you are shutting them down by using the phrase "Casual Competitive", when instead if it was called Item Tourney, or Jack Rules, or anything else, they would love it. You end up raising a tangential issue with a number of potential fans that requires an investment on their part (reading several pages and posts, and the risk of being ridiculed for not understanding your definitions of a word) that could be avoided entirely by a name change.
It's something worth considering as you move forward, as the system is a great one and I'd love to see more people jump on board. Not requiring a meta-game thought experiment will lower the barrier to entry to many participants.
Keep up the good work!
MorpheusVGX
Smash Journeyman
Let's not overcomplicate this
I am glad someone finally did this. I do not know why this is called Casual Competition. A casual gamer is someone who just play occasionally with his friends to have fun. And it is not interested in training or on being competitive in a tournament. Those of us who want this Item Tournament, are not like that. I would call it: The Complete Smash Experience Tournament. As we were playing the game Sakurai designed for us.
This whole testing thing. I think we are over complicating things and doing stuff that is not going to help much. There is no point in these weird testing methods, and then banning items, etc. I can clearly see that Sakurai thought of unbalancing items. Every overpowered item has a chance of back firing. The mechanics for getting the smash ball give a good chance to heavy characters. Heavy characters are very powerful and tough to be balanced against speedy characters getting items. Also, there are strategies and ways to avoiding items. Maybe, playing without items is unfair to speedy characters, as the game has been balanced considering items (default play method). So to know how to escape is also part of this game. There is randomness that can make a skilled player loose against a poor one, but we can avoid that by making the battle last longer: 5 stocks.
On the other hand, competitive play in this way should be 4 player. 4 player FFA, or 2 vs 2. It is possible, so why not. After a long match, you can still enjoy 3 FFA, or 1 vs 1 with a few stocks for the remaining fighters.
So, all in all, I suggest this:
1-) All items, pokeballs, smash balls, assist trophies on.
2-) 5 stocks
3-) Unlimited time.
4-) All stages, but many rounds with different stages.
5-) 4 player FFA survival match, or 2 vs 2 survival match (1 vs 1 would do too, but it may be a waste).
I am glad someone finally did this. I do not know why this is called Casual Competition. A casual gamer is someone who just play occasionally with his friends to have fun. And it is not interested in training or on being competitive in a tournament. Those of us who want this Item Tournament, are not like that. I would call it: The Complete Smash Experience Tournament. As we were playing the game Sakurai designed for us.
This whole testing thing. I think we are over complicating things and doing stuff that is not going to help much. There is no point in these weird testing methods, and then banning items, etc. I can clearly see that Sakurai thought of unbalancing items. Every overpowered item has a chance of back firing. The mechanics for getting the smash ball give a good chance to heavy characters. Heavy characters are very powerful and tough to be balanced against speedy characters getting items. Also, there are strategies and ways to avoiding items. Maybe, playing without items is unfair to speedy characters, as the game has been balanced considering items (default play method). So to know how to escape is also part of this game. There is randomness that can make a skilled player loose against a poor one, but we can avoid that by making the battle last longer: 5 stocks.
On the other hand, competitive play in this way should be 4 player. 4 player FFA, or 2 vs 2. It is possible, so why not. After a long match, you can still enjoy 3 FFA, or 1 vs 1 with a few stocks for the remaining fighters.
So, all in all, I suggest this:
1-) All items, pokeballs, smash balls, assist trophies on.
2-) 5 stocks
3-) Unlimited time.
4-) All stages, but many rounds with different stages.
5-) 4 player FFA survival match, or 2 vs 2 survival match (1 vs 1 would do too, but it may be a waste).
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I totally understand what you're saying, and it has come up a lot in the past. The name 'Casual Competition League' was suggested a while back in another thread, and at the time, it was the most catchy and most accurate thing we had. Personally, I'm terrible at naming things, so I planned on changing the name if anyone thought up anything better in the future, hence the 'tentatively titled' part of the OP. And I totally get what you're saying about the thought investment, although thanks to the current atmosphere here at SWF, if people don't read at very least this thread's OP, a lot of people get, I don't know, offended or something at the mentioning of items.
(And I refuse to name anything after myself. God, we had a lot of that going on with AT's right after Brawl came out.
)I don't know, maybe something like 'Item Standard Play' or something. Like I said, I'm bad at making names for things.
That's not why I wanted to establish testing for our standard, whatever that ends up being. I've been flamed a LOT on these boards for even mentioning items in a tournament, and the main argument against them is that any kind of random chance undermines skill so completely that it is impossible to have a fair outcome. Some people can see that this is, basically, a philosophy argument (we can't possibly quantify all of the variables as to prove that argument; if it can't be undeniably proven, than it has to be considered philosophy), but there are a good number of people that simply refuse to even consider items in tournaments for the above reason.
Well, if we test, to the best of our ability, and prove that items CAN promote a fair game, then that lends a bit of credibility to what we are doing. Common sense can dictate, to a pretty good margin, what items will need to be turned off, but the testing we do lends an air of credibility that we just can't get any other way that I know of.
Besides, it took a lot of effort for the Smash Back Room to finally decide on a standard for the classical style of tournament play we have now; I'm not so naive as to think that we'd be able to do anything as complicated as creating a fair and balanced item standard without serious effort on our part.
Thanks for the reply, Jack. "Item Standard Play" is a great name for it.
For those who think that testing items doesn't work, have you every played Magic: The Gathering? New sets of cards (items) come out all the time, many of which work well together in various combinations that require thought, skill, and planning to use. This is fun. Sometimes it turns out that a set of factors (in this case, stage, character of choice, and item) will be so imbalanced as to either make any counter strategy impossible or will reduce the game to one really big dice roll. This is no fun. To combat this, Magic has a banned and restricted list. The only way to populate that list though is through playtesting and running actual tournaments and watching those patterns as they emerge. By creating the list in this fashion, most combinations remain available to players and only the truly broken ones are removed.
For those who think that testing items doesn't work, have you every played Magic: The Gathering? New sets of cards (items) come out all the time, many of which work well together in various combinations that require thought, skill, and planning to use. This is fun. Sometimes it turns out that a set of factors (in this case, stage, character of choice, and item) will be so imbalanced as to either make any counter strategy impossible or will reduce the game to one really big dice roll. This is no fun. To combat this, Magic has a banned and restricted list. The only way to populate that list though is through playtesting and running actual tournaments and watching those patterns as they emerge. By creating the list in this fashion, most combinations remain available to players and only the truly broken ones are removed.
MorpheusVGX
Smash Journeyman
I see your point. But I think those who were so mind closed for to even think about an item tournament. They are not going to change their ways so easily. The only ones who are going to be attracted to this tournament are those who always played with items, and have that particular kind of competitive spirit. When you get too technical about percentages, and "critical situations", all those calculations will lead to Zero items, or probably just a few ones. I think it is not worth the effort. Elitist will never accept any randomness that can be avoided. Only those who willingly accept randomness and the fact they could explode or have a disadvantage in a critical situation and can still accept defeat with a smile. So, doing all this tests to please these other kind of people will not work. Item players are born, not made 
I would suggest you test my proposal. I would do it if I could. Have a 2 skilled Brawl Players and 2 noobs Brawl players have 3 rounds ( different random stages ) . 5 stock free for all. See the outcome. See if skilled and experienced players dominate.
You should also think of this: What you call "casual players" play tons and tons of times with all items on in what we could consider hundreds of battles test. The outcome is the same. Experienced and skilled players dominate. If that doesn't happen, then we should worry.
If we go by this trying to ban everything that seems broken , will we end banning even characters. Glitched overpowered characters like falco and fox should have been banned in Melee and they were not. Because they were part of the game and some people liked them. I feel the same way with items. I like all of them and I think they shouldn't be banned at all, as they are part of the game Sakurai conceived and tested.
In the case of Magic or a Dungeons and Dragons game, you can add and ban things. In Brawl you can add nothing. Also, if you ban something you will not know if overtime people can learn to handle it. When I first started Smash 64, the hammer and many pokemons seemed too powerful, but in time, our overall skill progressed and we could handle almost any situation. I suggest no item should be banned. If we follow that line of thought we should also ban broken characters and broken moves, broken tactics and so on. Banning should only be considered on extremely rare cases.
There are many broken tactics that have been permited (chain grabbing, edge hogging, wave-shine). So "broken" or "too unbalancing" shouldn't be an excuse for banning. As any broken move or tactic have never been banned or prohibited. You should think of this.
I would suggest you test my proposal. I would do it if I could. Have a 2 skilled Brawl Players and 2 noobs Brawl players have 3 rounds ( different random stages ) . 5 stock free for all. See the outcome. See if skilled and experienced players dominate.
You should also think of this: What you call "casual players" play tons and tons of times with all items on in what we could consider hundreds of battles test. The outcome is the same. Experienced and skilled players dominate. If that doesn't happen, then we should worry.
If we go by this trying to ban everything that seems broken , will we end banning even characters. Glitched overpowered characters like falco and fox should have been banned in Melee and they were not. Because they were part of the game and some people liked them. I feel the same way with items. I like all of them and I think they shouldn't be banned at all, as they are part of the game Sakurai conceived and tested.
In the case of Magic or a Dungeons and Dragons game, you can add and ban things. In Brawl you can add nothing. Also, if you ban something you will not know if overtime people can learn to handle it. When I first started Smash 64, the hammer and many pokemons seemed too powerful, but in time, our overall skill progressed and we could handle almost any situation. I suggest no item should be banned. If we follow that line of thought we should also ban broken characters and broken moves, broken tactics and so on. Banning should only be considered on extremely rare cases.
There are many broken tactics that have been permited (chain grabbing, edge hogging, wave-shine). So "broken" or "too unbalancing" shouldn't be an excuse for banning. As any broken move or tactic have never been banned or prohibited. You should think of this.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
We're trying as hard as possible NOT to ban things, trust me. Banning things is not what people enjoy doing unless it really needs to be done, and so far our prelim ban lists all consist of items that reward the user for little to no work (healers, most bomb items) or cause too much trouble (exploding containers). The rest is just making sure everything is as balanced (read: non-exploitable) as possible.
MIRAI87
Smash Journeyman
I just read all 8 pages of this discussion without realized I had read all 8 pages. Nice.
I'd really love to get into tournaments, but due to my life and all that's going on (full time school, part time work, band, + girlfriend) have a really difficult time sitting down for hours on end to play the game and work on techniques, plus my parents don't let me play it occassionally when I HAVE a perfect opportunity. So, this sort of play could be beneficial for me. I really like what you're doing and am interested in the future of this group.
I'd really love to get into tournaments, but due to my life and all that's going on (full time school, part time work, band, + girlfriend) have a really difficult time sitting down for hours on end to play the game and work on techniques, plus my parents don't let me play it occassionally when I HAVE a perfect opportunity. So, this sort of play could be beneficial for me. I really like what you're doing and am interested in the future of this group.
Atrion
Smash Apprentice
Correct me if im wrong, but there is still no way to transfer save data to every Wii that would be used in a tourney right? If this is the case then i think AT's should be off just because different people will have different ones unlocked, so everyone will not be playing with the same chance for certain AT characters.
DragoonXD
Smash Cadet
As much as I don't want any items banned, I partially agree with you, Jack. I realize the danger in exploding containers and the frustration they cause, but why bombs? I think it's a little different since you can see them in the open, and you shouldn't be killed by them unless you're completely oblivious to your surroundings... I don't see much of a problem with bombs, other than the fact they kill you easily (Bob-ombs and Smart Bombs mainly).
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I actually had a forum-talk with someone about this last night on another forum. When it comes to item balance, part of the logical problem is risk/reward and how much you have to invest in an item in order to get a positive result from using it.
Bob-ombs, Smart Bombs, and Deku Nuts are TERRIBLE at this. Your risk is almost none (you risk more picking the **** things up than from throwing them) and your reward is great (most likely a kill). Smart Bombs are actually the worst due to the fact that you can miss with the throw and still hit with the blast; at least Bob-ombs are small. Everything I've seen using those three items has been, frankly, unbalanced.
Motion and Gooey bombs, while still bomb items, aren't quite as bad. They are small, which makes it hard to accidentally hit them unless they spawn right in the path of your attack. Comparatively, they have a lot of strategy involved (the motion bomb doesn't blow until it's set, and even then you can blow yourself up, while the Gooey bomb sticks to whatever it lands on when thrown; if it lands on the ground, you have to avoid a part of the stage, and if it lands on your foe, you better run like hell). As far as risk/reward goes, they actually have some risk to their use.
I'd much rather allow motion and gooey bombs only than allow the other three. Those items are really, really unbalanced, from what I've seen.
EDIT @ Atrion: Well, chances are that if you are hosting a tournament, your save data already has everything unlocked anyway. In fact, it's almost better to have an incomplete list of AT's, since Issac (one of the last ones) is on the verge of brokenness himself.
Bob-ombs, Smart Bombs, and Deku Nuts are TERRIBLE at this. Your risk is almost none (you risk more picking the **** things up than from throwing them) and your reward is great (most likely a kill). Smart Bombs are actually the worst due to the fact that you can miss with the throw and still hit with the blast; at least Bob-ombs are small. Everything I've seen using those three items has been, frankly, unbalanced.
Motion and Gooey bombs, while still bomb items, aren't quite as bad. They are small, which makes it hard to accidentally hit them unless they spawn right in the path of your attack. Comparatively, they have a lot of strategy involved (the motion bomb doesn't blow until it's set, and even then you can blow yourself up, while the Gooey bomb sticks to whatever it lands on when thrown; if it lands on the ground, you have to avoid a part of the stage, and if it lands on your foe, you better run like hell). As far as risk/reward goes, they actually have some risk to their use.
I'd much rather allow motion and gooey bombs only than allow the other three. Those items are really, really unbalanced, from what I've seen.
EDIT @ Atrion: Well, chances are that if you are hosting a tournament, your save data already has everything unlocked anyway. In fact, it's almost better to have an incomplete list of AT's, since Issac (one of the last ones) is on the verge of brokenness himself.
Chicobo329
Smash Cadet
As for what MorpheusGVX said earlier about elitists not accepting randomness, random factors are sometimes part of what makes players so great. Some of the greatest game players of all time have to deal with random factors, sometimes on overwhelming degrees.
I watched the King of Kongs documentary, a great watch for anybody interested in taking a peek at competitive gaming. It's about a man who is challenging a 20+ year old high score record at Donkey Kong, the original arcade version. There are large amounts of random factors in that game that players have to deal with on a regular basis. Granted, this is an old game where you have to figure out patterns and such, but even if you come in with a gameplan, you can still die from a stray barrel or a fireball that didn't go your way or a spring that touched a single pixel of Mario's foot. Randomness is part of videogaming, and I understand an emphasis on skill, but these Donkey Kong players had it in spades AND they have to deal with random factors out of their control.
To apply this to Smash Bros., adopting to random factors IS skill. I'm not saying that you should always expect to die from something like a stage hazard or an item for example, but if you think about how far you can go to avoid these things and even use them to your advantage; that takes as much skill as any pro player out there. It's the classic videogame obstacle.
I watched the King of Kongs documentary, a great watch for anybody interested in taking a peek at competitive gaming. It's about a man who is challenging a 20+ year old high score record at Donkey Kong, the original arcade version. There are large amounts of random factors in that game that players have to deal with on a regular basis. Granted, this is an old game where you have to figure out patterns and such, but even if you come in with a gameplan, you can still die from a stray barrel or a fireball that didn't go your way or a spring that touched a single pixel of Mario's foot. Randomness is part of videogaming, and I understand an emphasis on skill, but these Donkey Kong players had it in spades AND they have to deal with random factors out of their control.
To apply this to Smash Bros., adopting to random factors IS skill. I'm not saying that you should always expect to die from something like a stage hazard or an item for example, but if you think about how far you can go to avoid these things and even use them to your advantage; that takes as much skill as any pro player out there. It's the classic videogame obstacle.
DragoonXD
Smash Cadet
I see what you're saying.
I bet if you asked everybody on this forum, whether or not they've blown themselves up with a Smart Bomb, they'd say yes. For me, it seems to explode way before it gets to the opponent, and there's no way to get out of the blast.
Motion sensor bombs were my favorite in Melee. It was so much fun to lay traps for people. There is indeed more strategy involved with these, if you don't want to kill yourself.
Just wondering, what's your opinion on the Soccer Ball?
I bet if you asked everybody on this forum, whether or not they've blown themselves up with a Smart Bomb, they'd say yes. For me, it seems to explode way before it gets to the opponent, and there's no way to get out of the blast.
Motion sensor bombs were my favorite in Melee. It was so much fun to lay traps for people. There is indeed more strategy involved with these, if you don't want to kill yourself.
Just wondering, what's your opinion on the Soccer Ball?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
For the soccer ball, my personal philosophy is only go near it if you're sure to connect with it or if you're trying to use it to edgeguard. If two people fight over that thing, I can guarantee that it will backfire for me. In all seriousness, it is really kind of hard to aim, so I don't see it as too broken. It's great in 2v2 Team Attack, though; you REALLY have to have good aim, judgment, and teamwork to not kill each other with it.
And nesdude... how long does it take for a Wii to figure out you've added someone?! I've had you on my lists for like 2 days now (Wii AND Brawl) and it still won't let me send you my replays.
In all seriousness, it is really kind of hard to aim, so I don't see it as too broken. It's great in 2v2 Team Attack, though; you REALLY have to have good aim, judgment, and teamwork to not kill each other with it.And nesdude... how long does it take for a Wii to figure out you've added someone?! I've had you on my lists for like 2 days now (Wii AND Brawl) and it still won't let me send you my replays.
nesdude128
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2008
- Messages
- 5
I was just going to post something about that, Jack.
I sent you a test message from the Wii Message Board to see if you and I can even communicate with our Wiis. I notice that we can now have a friend match in Brawl and that we can send messages to each other in the Wii Message Board (provided that you can get and read my message). I'm at a loss to think of what could be the problem sending a replay. I've sent a replay to my friend before (but, he was registered on my Wii before registering in Brawl, maybe that could be it?). I just don't know.
I'll keep looking around to see if I can find any information about this.
-nesdude
Edit: Here's something real interesting - I tried to delete and re-add you to Brawl, and got an interesting message: "The friend has been deleted from your Friend Roster. (If you want to stop receiving Vault date from this person, please erase his or her name from your Wii Address Book.)". I'm not quite sure what to make of it, considering we can't get Vault data to send in the first place...
I sent you a test message from the Wii Message Board to see if you and I can even communicate with our Wiis. I notice that we can now have a friend match in Brawl and that we can send messages to each other in the Wii Message Board (provided that you can get and read my message). I'm at a loss to think of what could be the problem sending a replay. I've sent a replay to my friend before (but, he was registered on my Wii before registering in Brawl, maybe that could be it?). I just don't know.
I'll keep looking around to see if I can find any information about this.
-nesdude
Edit: Here's something real interesting - I tried to delete and re-add you to Brawl, and got an interesting message: "The friend has been deleted from your Friend Roster. (If you want to stop receiving Vault date from this person, please erase his or her name from your Wii Address Book.)". I'm not quite sure what to make of it, considering we can't get Vault data to send in the first place...
DragoonXD
Smash Cadet
I've sent stuff to one of my friends before, but I had to wait a period of time (about 30 minutes) before it "confirmed" our registration. Whatever it needed to do with that. Afterwards, it still took quite a while for the Vault Data (stages and replays) to be sent. I'm wondering if where you live has anything to do with this, similar to lag online. It's a very confusing predicament. I'd wish they would throw away the friend codes all together.
...After a little thought...
Are you both registered in the Wii and Brawl? If one of you isn't, that would explain it. Since you only need the Brawl FC to play online. I don't know...I wish I could be more of a help, but I'm no expert on this.
...After a little thought...
Are you both registered in the Wii and Brawl? If one of you isn't, that would explain it. Since you only need the Brawl FC to play online. I don't know...I wish I could be more of a help, but I'm no expert on this.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Just got another 1v1 test done. Here are the results:
--------------
1v1 Test Set
--------------
GLOBAL VARIABLES
Number of Matches Per Set: 10
Character Used: Marth
Stage: (New) Yoshi's Island
Rules: 3:00, No Stock
Item Rate: Low
Items Disabled (for ITEM SET): (Smash Balls) (Assist Trophy) (Pokeballs) (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Bomb-omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut)
---------------------
Control Set Results
---------------------
Lvl 9 Total Wins = 9 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
Kill Count = 22
Lvl 7 Total Wins = 1 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
Kill Count = 13
CONTROL VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------
ITEM SET RESULTS
--------------------
Lvl 9 Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
Itemless Kill Count = 17
Item Kill Count = 3
lvl 7 Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
Itemless Kill Count = 9
Item Kill Count = 3
ITEM VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------------
1v1 TEST CONCLUSIONS
--------------------------
Above all else, I learned something very important today: DON'T TEST WITH MARTH. The CPU Marth, even at Lvl 9, is as dumb as a pile of bricks, and it is the only time I've ever seen a Brawl 1v1 match have a competitor last until 209%. These guys had no clue how to use Marth... but I still got some useful conclusions out of this test.
The Bumper continues to shine as an edgeguarding machine; it is much more effective on the ground than in the air, and at higher percentages it absolutely ***** on smaller stages. The decision to include Motion and Gooey bombs, unfortunately, didn't get to play out, as no motion bombs even spawned, and the one Gooey spawn was hit by one of the Marth's after it spawned.
Curry is an interesting item in 1v1, as you can still damage/hit the opponent, but approaches are essentially non-existent. The ability to move forward while using your back-air is very effective on a Curry user, as are other projectiles (which makes this Link-user happy).
Really, this was an incredibly straightforward test, so there isn't TOO much to report that we don't already know from other tests. But hey, at least I got to use my new test sheets! (By the way, check the news post: I uploaded Wordpad files with templates to help people document tests and such. They're pretty! Please?) I'll try to get a replay or two to nesdude (if Brawl stops sucking so much about it), so look for those... later.
--------------
1v1 Test Set
--------------
GLOBAL VARIABLES
Number of Matches Per Set: 10
Character Used: Marth
Stage: (New) Yoshi's Island
Rules: 3:00, No Stock
Item Rate: Low
Items Disabled (for ITEM SET): (Smash Balls) (Assist Trophy) (Pokeballs) (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Bomb-omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut)
---------------------
Control Set Results
---------------------
Lvl 9 Total Wins = 9 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
Kill Count = 22
Lvl 7 Total Wins = 1 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 1
Kill Count = 13
CONTROL VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------
ITEM SET RESULTS
--------------------
Lvl 9 Total Wins = 8 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
Itemless Kill Count = 17
Item Kill Count = 3
lvl 7 Total Wins = 2 out of 10
Wins in Sudden Death = 2
Itemless Kill Count = 9
Item Kill Count = 3
ITEM VIDEO TO-BE-UPLOADED
--------------------------
1v1 TEST CONCLUSIONS
--------------------------
Above all else, I learned something very important today: DON'T TEST WITH MARTH. The CPU Marth, even at Lvl 9, is as dumb as a pile of bricks, and it is the only time I've ever seen a Brawl 1v1 match have a competitor last until 209%. These guys had no clue how to use Marth... but I still got some useful conclusions out of this test.
The Bumper continues to shine as an edgeguarding machine; it is much more effective on the ground than in the air, and at higher percentages it absolutely ***** on smaller stages. The decision to include Motion and Gooey bombs, unfortunately, didn't get to play out, as no motion bombs even spawned, and the one Gooey spawn was hit by one of the Marth's after it spawned.
Curry is an interesting item in 1v1, as you can still damage/hit the opponent, but approaches are essentially non-existent. The ability to move forward while using your back-air is very effective on a Curry user, as are other projectiles (which makes this Link-user happy
).Really, this was an incredibly straightforward test, so there isn't TOO much to report that we don't already know from other tests. But hey, at least I got to use my new test sheets! (By the way, check the news post: I uploaded Wordpad files with templates to help people document tests and such. They're pretty! Please?) I'll try to get a replay or two to nesdude (if Brawl stops sucking so much about it), so look for those... later.
unii
Smash Cadet
no one cares but items in tournaments I would diffently not like that espically randoms on ly one i would except is maybe poke balls and final smashes but besides that nothing would be good for tournaments
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The thing is, video game tournaments are SUPPOSED to be contests of skill.
If it takes more skill win in a situation, it's not just your skill against your opponent's it's your skill against your opponent's skill + outside factors (-outside factors when it's in your favor).
Which is why I could not support this format replacing standard unless we have balanced items, which in spite of hopes to the contrary, is not the case.
That said, it would make an interesting alternative format, giving up as little as possible of the skill factor to gambling so as to create a unique metagame, consider me interested.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Well, this new format is aiming to be a supplement, not a replacement, to the current tournament standard, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I mean, short of every top Pro player and every Smash Back Room-er playing like this on a consistent basis, nothing is going to replace the current tournament standard, nor should it.
But yes, our aim is to reduce the 'luck' factors in item play to as close to pure 'skill' as we can. The easiest way that I can think about the process is in terms of risk/reward. If an item has little risk to use, than the reward should be little, and conversely if an item puts you at great personal risk or is very difficult to get/use than the reward should reflect that; that is why I like the Dragoon item so much (OHKO, but it takes a LOT of effort to get when facing a skilled opponent).
But yes, our aim is to reduce the 'luck' factors in item play to as close to pure 'skill' as we can. The easiest way that I can think about the process is in terms of risk/reward. If an item has little risk to use, than the reward should be little, and conversely if an item puts you at great personal risk or is very difficult to get/use than the reward should reflect that; that is why I like the Dragoon item so much (OHKO, but it takes a LOT of effort to get when facing a skilled opponent).
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Awesome, then I wish you guys luck, I'll help out if I can.
But for dragoon, in 1v1, I don't think it's balanced at all, not because it gives too much of a reward, but on the contrary, because it gives far too little for the effort. It's way too easy to sidestep dodge dragoon in my experience, being that I'm considerably weaker then a lot of competitive players, and I have 100% dodge ratio on the dragoon after figuring this out (please note, it worked on first attempt), I don't think they'll be much of a point in getting them as the metagame develops, making them (dragoon pieces) essentially wasted space.