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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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AngryJimmy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
30
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I have this deep burning hope that someone finds some OMFG "AT" that can step up to wave dashing and the shuffl in Brawl - I mean - I wasn't a master of WD or shffl'ing, but you know what - that kind of gave me a goal to strive for.. even after playing melee for 7-8 years (only the last couple starting to play competitively, I was def. a casual before that - but not a scrub type casual, meaning I was open to any ideas in Smash - i simply wasn't aware of the godly ATs due to the fact I didn't think of going online as far as Smash knowledge was concerned) there was still room to improve. I can't think of any other game that I've played for that long without mastering it.

I'm drunk :X
 

'Fro

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,340
All right, let's look at it from a multi-fighting game person's point of view.

I play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike, a game with a very respectable competetive fan base. I play mid-tier Ryu, who gets destroyed by both top tiers (Chun Li and Yun). The lop-sidedness does not, however, kill the game's competetiveness. Not in the slightest. I don't define being competetive by the number of viable characters, hence why I support that Melee is more competetive.

On the other hand, I got to a point in Melee where I couldn't handle not being able to stack up not just for my lack of skill, but for my choice of character (Mario), because the top characters had too much in their favor. I did OK, but I hated always being at a disadvantage.

That's why I'm currently enjoying Brawl more. Don't get me wrong, though: I believe the amount of skill it takes to become good at Melee, even as the overpowered top tier chars, takes incredible skill and execution. However, when the game reaches that level, it honestly loses some of its "pure fun" appeal to me. I don't ever recall playing Melee in as long amounts as I have Brawl, even when it was brand new.

Verdict? Melee is, by far, the more competetive, skill-oriented game. If that's what you're looking for, you can stick with Melee. For laughs, casual fun, and less competetiveness, Brawl is the way to go. Everybody can make their picks based on that, and I've picked Brawl, although I probably won't stop playing Melee with other people if I attend a tourney.
 

Dogenzaka

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
638
I am trying to argue that it's not opinionated but plain fact.
I'm sorry, you're simply preaching your opinion. Some people could PLAINLY think that Brawl is more competitive, and that there's an opinion too.

The fact is that as of now, brawl has not matched melee in the sheer variety of executable techniques/exploits/whatever you want to call them.
And yet some of you idiots have lost all meaning of the word "competitive". You are WRONGFULLY using the word. Competition does NOT mean "exploits and techniques discovered over 6 years time featuring button combos and lag canceling at 200mph". The fact that Melee has that does NOT mean it's competitive. That is NOT the definition.

You know what Merriam-Webster says?

com·pe·ti·tion Listen to the pronunciation of competition
Pronunciation:
\ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
Date:
1579

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable termsb: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to f**king DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Get it through your ****, ignorant heads. Pisses me off how thick-skulled some of you can be.
 

D20

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Pittsburgh
The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to f**king DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Get it through you ****, ignorant heads. Pisses me off how thick-skulled some of you can be.

Yeah, let's all go play B-I-N-G-O with the old people that can't l-cancel. They still have fun.
 

Bibbed

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
433
Location
College Park, MD
Dogenzaka, I have a question for you.

... don't you have something better to do than post... on a Saturday?
Also, no one cares about your stupid technical definition bull****. (I didn't read your ******** post so don't bother arguing about it with me). If you can't tell that Melee is more competitive than Brawl, you're a moron. It's a simple observation to make, like the sky is blue during the day. It's just common sense.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Who cares? Honestly! In the end, it's just a game that should be had fun with. Brawl does have aspects that cater to the noobs...but at the same time has equal aspects that will appeal to the hard core gamer.

Personally, my one specific gripe with Brawl is that you go flying way too far when you're hit. It's really hard to set up combos. What I haven't done is fool around with the damage ratio, but I'll try that out and see if there is a more suitable ratio for more comboing and better overall gameplay. The problem will be that setting it too low might mandate 2 stock matches :laugh:
 

AngryJimmy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
30
Location
Phoenix, AZ
you know, I really fail to see how people seem to think Brawl in it's current metagame stage is more competitive that Melee without being completely ****ing ********. I'm sorry if I sound like an *******, er, wait, no I don't - LOOK at the hardcore melee videos - they're ****ing amazing. Do you ****ers have any idea how much skill (aka time and practice) that would take to pull off? The difference between pros and casuals was as striking as high school football and professional football - and some of you ****s wanted them to take that away.

It's so irritating that some of you idiots believe that dumbing down a game makes it MORE competitive - how the hell does that make any sense? Making it easier to play making it more competitive? I'll tell you what you're thinking - you're thinking that making it more accessible and easier makes it more competitive because the mentally ******** kid down the street stands a chance - that doesn't make it more competitive - that lowers the games to worthless PoS scrub games like tick tack toe - if I wanted to play some ****ing tic tack toe I'd play some ****ing tic tack toe. Somebody that thinks like you belongs in the special ****ing Olympics.

If I want to play a game which requires patience, training and intelligence I'll play something like melee.

Most of the ****s that even argue against melee being the obviously more competitive game (when compared to Brawl's current state... I still have hope) are 2008 noobs that probably got your *** kicked by every melee player to date. Sucks to be you - loser. Play to win - if you keep your "OH NOES GLITCHES ARE FOR ***S" mentality you will be continued to be owned by every player in nearly every game that's worth a **** - including real life. (unless you think RL is "fair" rofl)
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
I'm sorry, you're simply preaching your opinion. Some people could PLAINLY think that Brawl is more competitive, and that there's an opinion too.



And yet some of you idiots have lost all meaning of the word "competitive". You are WRONGFULLY using the word. Competition does NOT mean "exploits and techniques discovered over 6 years time featuring button combos and lag canceling at 200mph". The fact that Melee has that does NOT mean it's competitive. That is NOT the definition.

You know what Merriam-Webster says?

com·pe·ti·tion Listen to the pronunciation of competition
Pronunciation:
\ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
Date:
1579

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable termsb: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to f**king DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Get it through your ****, ignorant heads. Pisses me off how thick-skulled some of you can be.
So then you'd be down for some competitive coin flipping then? The fact that you have competitive people playing any random game does not make the game competitive.
 

AngryJimmy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
30
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I'm sorry, you're simply preaching your opinion. Some people could PLAINLY think that Brawl is more competitive, and that there's an opinion too.



And yet some of you idiots have lost all meaning of the word "competitive". You are WRONGFULLY using the word. Competition does NOT mean "exploits and techniques discovered over 6 years time featuring button combos and lag canceling at 200mph". The fact that Melee has that does NOT mean it's competitive. That is NOT the definition.

You know what Merriam-Webster says?

com·pe·ti·tion Listen to the pronunciation of competition
Pronunciation:
\ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
Date:
1579

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable termsb: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to f**king DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Get it through your ****, ignorant heads. Pisses me off how thick-skulled some of you can be.
If you weren't completely ****ing ******** you would have realized that the OP already defined the word "competitive" for the means of the argument he was presenting. Do you have any ****ing idea what a premise and conclusion is? ****ing uneducated *******.
 

DarkKnight077

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
1,488
Location
Stanton. CA. (Near Knott's Berry Farm)
And yet some of you idiots have lost all meaning of the word "competitive". You are WRONGFULLY using the word. Competition does NOT mean "exploits and techniques discovered over 6 years time featuring button combos and lag canceling at 200mph". The fact that Melee has that does NOT mean it's competitive. That is NOT the definition.

You know what Merriam-Webster says?

com·pe·ti·tion Listen to the pronunciation of competition
Pronunciation:
\ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
Date:
1579

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable termsb: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to f**king DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Get it through your ****, ignorant heads. Pisses me off how thick-skulled some of you can be.
Are you ****ing ******** or something?
 

Eternal Neo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
91
lollin

you know, I really fail to see how people seem to think Brawl in it's current metagame stage is more competitive that Melee without being completely ****ing ********. I'm sorry if I sound like an *******, er, wait, no I don't - LOOK at the hardcore melee videos - they're ****ing amazing. Do you ****ers have any idea how much skill (aka time and practice) that would take to pull off? The difference between pros and casuals was as striking as high school football and professional football - and some of you ****s wanted them to take that away.

It's so irritating that some of you idiots believe that dumbing down a game makes it MORE competitive - how the hell does that make any sense? Making it easier to play making it more competitive? I'll tell you what you're thinking - you're thinking that making it more accessible and easier makes it more competitive because the mentally ******** kid down the street stands a chance - that doesn't make it more competitive - that lowers the games to worthless PoS scrub games like tick tack toe - if I wanted to play some ****ing tic tack toe I'd play some ****ing tic tack toe. Somebody that thinks like you belongs in the special ****ing Olympics.

If I want to play a game which requires patience, training and intelligence I'll play something like melee.

Most of the ****s that even argue against melee being the obviously more competitive game (when compared to Brawl's current state... I still have hope) are 2008 noobs that probably got your *** kicked by every melee player to date. Sucks to be you - loser. Play to win - if you keep your "OH NOES GLITCHES ARE FOR ***S" mentality you will be continued to be owned by every player in nearly every game that's worth a **** - including real life. (unless you think RL is "fair" rofl)
No matter what you think about Brawl, you gotta agree that posts like this with people freaking the hell out over a video game are hilarious.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
I'm sorry, you're simply preaching your opinion. Some people could PLAINLY think that Brawl is more competitive, and that there's an opinion too.



And yet some of you idiots have lost all meaning of the word "competitive". You are WRONGFULLY using the word. Competition does NOT mean "exploits and techniques discovered over 6 years time featuring button combos and lag canceling at 200mph". The fact that Melee has that does NOT mean it's competitive. That is NOT the definition.

You know what Merriam-Webster says?

com·pe·ti·tion Listen to the pronunciation of competition
Pronunciation:
\ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
Date:
1579

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable termsb: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to f**king DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Get it through your ****, ignorant heads. Pisses me off how thick-skulled some of you can be.
You're an idiot.

Arguing the definition of competitive when he defined what it meant in the terms of this discussion in the OP is just stupid.
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
After doing a lot of lurking and coming across a couple of Scar's post I was motivated to log into my account and actually make a post here on smash boards.

I'm in 100% agreeance with Scar in how Melee lends itself to be much more competitive then Brawl.

I'm not the best smash player. I've only been to one tournament and didn't get far (got beat by a captain falcon that made me switch my main from link to falcon). I feel like I'm able to look at this debate from the viewpoint of a competitve player though.

The competetive players generally backing melee. They want it to live on because it lends itself for the best player to win most of the time. They are fighting against a large force that are the brawl supporters.

Brawl supporters fall into multiple different camps, but for the sake of simplicty I'm going to just mention two groups that I think are most important. One of these groups is the "casual" group. They love the single player, all the new characters, the music, the balanced characters, the ease of getting into the game and the ability to win games. There is nothing wrong with the "casual" group, but there really isn't much discussion on their stance.

The other group is the group of people are moving on with series. They have many different reasons for liking Brawl. Some of them are trying to make the game competitve and to develop a competitve community. They have got a lot of momentum and are very likely to take over the competitve scene. The fight for dominace in the competitve scene is where a lot of this debate stems from.

Melee supporters want the most competitve competitions and community. Brawl supporters seem to want to go out with the old and in with the new and create a very competitve game/community.

From the looks of it, I think there is a rift in the community and one of the sides are going to have to be relegated to a metaphorical corner or be forced to join the new forced to compete among the best competitors.


or well, atleast that is my 2 cents
 

Dogenzaka

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
638
If you weren't completely ****ing ******** you would have realized that the OP already defined the word "competitive" for the means of the argument he was presenting. Do you have any ****ing idea what a premise and conclusion is? ****ing uneducated *******.
Listen here. I don't give a **** how people define it themselves, because it's INCORRECT. It's not the correct definition of competitive. You can't define the word yourself. I could say the word banana means democracy, but it DOESN'T.

Use the word CORRECTLY or make up another word, like you guys always do.

If you can't tell that Melee is more competitive than Brawl, you're a moron. It's a simple observation to make, like the sky is blue during the day. It's just common sense.
Not according the word "competitive"'s true definition. So obviously, you're too stupid to speak to. Get out.

no I don't - LOOK at the hardcore melee videos - they're ****ing amazing.
Melee videos LOOK like Brawl on double speed, double gravity. That's all. I know that people are sitting there inputting 246073608 button combinations at light-speed to try to play functionally, but it still LOOKS just like Brawl, but at double speed, double gravity to me.

Arguing the definition of competitive when he defined what it meant in the terms of this discussion in the OP is just stupid.
Do not care how he defines it. It's wrong unless it's the definition used in universal dictionaries.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Listen here. I don't give a **** how people define it themselves, because it's INCORRECT. It's not the correct definition of competitive. You can't define the word yourself. I could say the word banana means democracy, but it DOESN'T.

Use the word CORRECTLY or make up another word, like you guys always do.



Not according the word "competitive"'s true definition. So obviously, you're too stupid to speak to. Get out.
If the context in which the word is used, so then does the meaning. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this shows that your very childish.
 

Dogenzaka

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
638
If the context in which the word is used, so then does the meaning. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this shows that your very childish.
You're right. I have lost all maturity and self-control in my posts and actions. Why? Because no one else can seem to keep it. There's a fuse, it's not infinite, and people can only act like idiot, bias, ignorant, a-hats before they make me blow.

I will post what I posted again.
This is the correct definition of competition. Anything else is INCORRECT. Period. Fin. Terminado.

You know what Merriam-Webster says?

com·pe·ti·tion Listen to the pronunciation of competition
Pronunciation:
\ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Late Latin competition-, competitio, from Latin competere
Date:
1579

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable termsb: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.
Why does it need to be?
Why the hell do you need to poke and prod at Brawl to find some amazing techniques to make it faster?

You need to give us reasons for WHY we should stop and WHY we're wrong!
Because it's pointless. Your btching won't make Sakurai re-release the game or make the next one any different, probably. He said he LIKES it the way it is, and it was his goal since the beginning. Obviously he's going to make the game the way he wants, otherwise he wouldn't have said, "We put Wario in. Don't like Wario? I'm sorry. Too bad."

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse.
Why?
Why is it so necessary for Brawl to be like Melee?
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
Err. Dogen, you do realize that the point we are making is in regard to the term competitive, not competition, as defined by smash vernacular right? It doesn't matter what a dictionary says so long as the local usage of the term has a generally accepted definition, which we defined in the OP.
 

Dogenzaka

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
638
as defined by smash vernacular right?
If the smash vernacular wants to define it that way, fine, but that's not the true term, and no one can accept me or others to accept their opinion as absolute truth if they choose to change a word's definition to their circumstances :p

competitive, not competition
Competitive is the adjective of competition. I looked it up in the dictionary and it simply referred to competition, obviously, because that's the noun of itself.

It doesn't matter what a dictionary says so long as the local usage of the term has a generally accepted definition, which we defined in the OP.
Well then the difference between competitive, and "smash competitive" should be clarified, in my opinion.

Do I agree that Melee is more competitive than Brawl? No.
Do I believe it is more competitive (in the aspect which you guys defined it in the OP, despite it not being the truth definition) than Brawl? Yes.

=P

That is my point.
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
This is the correct definition of competition. Anything else is INCORRECT. Period. Fin. Terminado.

The definition of "competitive" has NOTHING to DO with advanced techniques and exploits. Simply because people have yet to discover them in, oh, sht, a WEEK when Melee had 6 years to date, does NOT mean that Melee is more competitive than its sequel, Brawl.
I'm a Linguistics/English major. I also have taken 2 philosophy of language courses. I'm here to tell you you're just plain wrong.

Words have no meaning outside of those defined by a situation or condition. Words also change meaning based on a situation. For example, a Flush in poker is much different from flushing the toilet. Tapping has a completely different meaning in Magic than to lightly strike. Words can mean whatever you like, so long as you properly establish them.



Why does it need to be?
Why the hell do you need to poke and prod at Brawl to find some amazing techniques to make it faster?

Why?
Why is it so necessary for Brawl to be like Melee?
Once, again, you're making the blanket assumption that people who don't like Brawl are better at it than those who do like it. And as a correlation, the game requires less skill because, obviously, that's the only way they can't be winning consistently. You've backed up your claim of technical skill by stating what Melee required. You can't possibly prove, so early on, that Brawl doesn't have any technical skill (New, undiscovered, and/or different != None). You have not backed up your claim that these people are losing due to this lack of technical skill requirement.
This is the argument:

Brawl lacks many of the things which made melee competitive. Here's a list for you:

Mental Battles on Approach

Melee: Melee revolved around outsmarting your opponent on an approach, always by making them think you were going to do one thing (attacking, dashing, rolling), then doing another. The speed of the game, along with the variety of approach options (wavedashing, dashdancing,, triangle jumping, dash attacking, shffling, wavelanding, retreating, rolling, dodging) made this the single most competitive aspect of melee. You'll never see pros standing still in the game. Note that there are many, many more approach options beyond what I listed, especially when you get into character specifics.

Brawl: Brawl has very, very few approach options. Each one is incredibly predictable and easily punishable. You can dash, dash attack, aerial attack, air dodge, or roll. Each one is visible from a mile away. Because of this, approaching is no longer the most viable strategy. Rather, the best strategy is to sit across the stage and lob projectiles all match.

The difference:
There's no real way to be a mental step ahead of your opponent. If you play a fast character, you can easily predict an approach, and react accordingly. This does not mean Brawl is not competitive; rather, it means that it is less competitive in this area due to more limitations.



Punishment

Melee: In Melee, the significance of the approach was directly linked to the significance of the punishment. Once you successfully approached, you needed to deal in as much punishment as possible. For Marth, this usually mean Fair combos. For Fox and Falco, this meant shine combos. The point is, the better player would have won the approach and been rewarded accordingly.

Brawl: In Brawl, the significance of the approach is entirely indirectly linked to punishment. Lower hitstun makes it impossible to truly punish someone after a successful approach; in fact, most moves will lead to the attacker being punished more. For example: Wario has the following attack approaches: Dash Attack, Dash-cancelled upsmash, Bike, sh dair, sh fair, sh bair. At low percentages, any character will be able to recover almost immediately from hitstun and knock the beans outta Wario, despite Wario having made a successful approach.

The Difference
In Melee, the approach was only half the game. Once you started the punishment, it took quite a bit of skill to keep it going. In Brawl, even if you don't get punished for your approach, any decent player will use the crazy DI to prevent you from getting a followup. So why even approach? Again, Brawl is limited here, because there's no risk-reward.



Tripping

Melee: Moot. Did not have tripping.

Brawl: Tripping is entirely restrictive. Say we discover good ways to punish people. If they involve dashing, there's automatically a chance that even the best approach will fail.

The Difference
Tripping is entirely random. You claim to know how to trip; please share with the community. Extensive testing has shown that there is a 1% chance to trip on every dash animation.

Randomness is the bane of competitive smash. I've already listed two ways in which the risk outweighs the reward in Brawl's approach system; tripping is a third. Some people try to bring in different games as comparison... my favorite one so far has been Magic: the Gathering. Even in this seemingly random card game, the best players are the ones who minimize randomness. You'll see good players win consistently simply because they never fall victim to chance.



MAIN POINT

Brawl, right now, as a competitive game, does not allow for much more than camping and spamming. This is not a difficult strategy. Yes, some do it better than others... but let's say, for example, that I'm better than my friend at Brawl. I make better decisions, I play smarter, I play faster. However, since projectile spamming is incredibly easy, and I do not have a reliable method of approach, the skill gap is weakened. We are both at the same skill level, because we are both equally good at the dominant victory strategy--camping. The fundamentals which make games competitive do not exist--it's simply a question of who caves first in the projectile wars, and whether or not they get lucky with their approach. This is what it means for Brawl to be less competitive.[/quote]
 

Replacement100

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
104
@OP:

Well, nice post, I should really say.. but you do have some large flaws.
One being a lot of bias - "Brawl Supporters Never Make Good Points Ever."

Also, a total failboat on your analysis of why Brawl is less competitive than Melee.
Scar said:
Brawl is competitive to a degree, but pro-Melee debaters will argue that on average, better players will win more consistently in Melee than equally skilled competition in Brawl.

Also we will argue that contests are settled with dominance in Melee between players of NEARLY EQUAL SKILL! In Brawl, win/loss ratios are much closer to the 50% mark unless it's between two players of vastly different skill levels.
Tell us why please.
Is this trend created by pixies? God knows!
A good explanation and I'll let you have that one.
I'm really interested as to why this trend is apparent.

Also, who is to say which player is better, if one doesn't win most of the time?
How do you measure a player's skill? Their mindgames? Their playing style? Their ability to hit buttons? What is to say that one player's playing style does not counter the other's?

If a player is more skilled at something, they should win in an unbiased competition most of the time. I agree with that.

However, it's not like there are critical hits, items, etc. There is no random factor that gives the worse player an upper hand. What is stopping the the better from winning most of the time? Surely it's not the game's fault that they ran into a fully charged fsmash.

Bottom line: What about Brawl makes skill irrelevant to play, when most random factors have been cancelled out?
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Read my post above you. When there's only one dominant strategy, and that strategy is simple, skill barriers break down. Even if I play faster, smarter, neater, I would still fall victim to the simple strategy because it's so overly effective.
 

Reikan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 30, 2007
Messages
7
You're absolutely right - Melee is more competitive than Brawl. However, Brawl is still an excellent game, requiring a substantially different style of play than Melee to do well in it. That being said, some people will like Brawl, some will prefer Melee. Overall, Brawl will be played more by the masses, because it's new, and really, a lot more people than you think love this game. Just my two cents, take it or leave it.
 

Replacement100

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
104
Read my post above you. When there's only one dominant strategy, and that strategy is simple, skill barriers break down. Even if I play faster, smarter, neater, I would still fall victim to the simple strategy because it's so overly effective.
Ah, gotcha.
Well, I suppose it comes down to knowing how to counter the strategy. I'm sure someone will find a way.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
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Philadephia, PA
@Dogen: You really are an idiot. People who are clearly more knowledgeable than you are fully explaining why you are wrong and you still have the nerve to argue without having any legit information supporting you. I generally do not insult people directly like this, but you are just wasting our time.
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
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Messages
925
Location
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It's wrong unless it's the definition used in universal dictionaries.
Can you lend me one of these 'universal' dictionaries? It would solve the problem of other-people-talking-all-foreign, and make them learn some **** English.

This is the single most ignorant thing I've seen on the brawl boards in my time... and I've seen quite a bit. I am actually now convinced that Dogen is actually some fake account made by gimpy to troll or something.
 

pika-power

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
114
It honestly depends, in my opinon.

There was some randomness in Melee. For example, the type of thing G&W's side B did, or the things peach pulled up. This was canceled out by the power the exploits used contained. Who cares if peach can own someone if she pulls out a bomb, when Marth can get someone off the field and edge-guarded before the work go?

If Brawl gets an enormous amount of powerful exploits for enough characters, that cancels out the size of the threat of a random Gordo.
 

Jellybelly

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
680
Location
Nottingham, UK
Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse
Abuse?! I suppose that says alot about melees "competitiveness"

I find that all these threads just repeat the same thing. Yes brawls lacks melees advanced techniques but by this time next year no-one will even care. Brawl will still be played on the internet and in tourneys and it's still a well made fighting game with a great engine.
 

derf

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
881
Location
gainesville, fl
scar (or cactuar), where do top melee players in the northeast stand with regard to melee v brawl? specifically, are melee tournaments dead? i did see scar was hosting spoc but is anyone else organizing anything? whats the attendance for spoc looking like?

not knowing whats going to happen to melee is keeping me up till 7:20 am
 

Mikezor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
433
Location
Centennial, Colorado
Hey Scar, I liked I Killed Mufasa. Infact, I think it is either the best or second best Falcon combo video I have ever seen.

This thread is good too, except for Dogenzaka's ******** babble.
 

True Fool

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Vegas
I would say that as of right now, between what we know and what we expect, Melee is the more competitive game. I think that people who say that techniques can be found, more strategy, ect are just trying to defend the game with anything they can, and don't understand that no one(mostly) is saying Brawl is bad, or that it can't be competitive, Melee is simply more competitive. So yes, I agree with OP.

I plan on playing Brawl, and if other people are interested in it, I'd be happy to play competitively. Even though I enjoy the competitiveness of Melee, I can't play the same game forever. Not to say that someone else can't though.

Good post OP.
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
Location
Tempe, AZ
My biggest aggravation are all the people that just joined the boards and are trying to make debates the seasoned veterans are making as if they are on the same level. I may not be popular, and I know that I haven't put out combo or gameplay videos, but for someone to tell me to get better at a game that just came out when I have been playing the prequel competitively longer than this game has even been out, it irks me.

The new people, people who have made an account in the last 2 months, people who have less than 10 posts, or, generally, people who don't know what they are saying speaking as if otherwise need to stop. For now, I'm going to let melee be my fun/competitive game while Brawl is my fun/messing around game.
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
Wow. A "I think Brawl is less competitive thread." Not like there are a few dozen of those already that you could have posted this argument in. The problem (well, one of the problems) of Genral Brawl discusison is that too many posters think their opinion more worthy of attention than the next guy.

Guess I'll post my argument here - where it has a 50/50 shot of being ignored.

Competitive vs Competition

If you look it up in a dictionary, you will find a very different definition. Sometimes the dictionary is not the place to go. Words are clumsy tools we use to try to convey thoughts. We must define the word on our own.

The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently. This yields my mantra, that which I repeat over and over to prove my point.

Those who should win will win.


It is necessary to point out that this has nothing to do with the competition you will face. There is a big difference between competition and competitiveness.

Also, competitiveness is a scale. By definition, someone better than someone else at anything will on average win more. Competitiveness can only be talked about relatively, since everything that isn't completely random has a certain amount of competitiveness.

Brawl is competitive to a degree, but pro-Melee debaters will argue that on average, better players will win more consistently in Melee than equally skilled competition in Brawl.

Also we will argue that contests are settled with dominance in Melee between players of NEARLY EQUAL SKILL! In Brawl, win/loss ratios are much closer to the 50% mark unless it's between two players of vastly different skill levels.

Important consequences:

The argument "I think any game can be competitive" is no longer valid. It is clear that you are simply saying, "people can compete in any game." It is also clear that this statement points out plain fact.

The problem is that you are confusing competition with competitiveness. Shallow games are not competitive, but you can find competition in them.
If I read you correctly, you appear to be saying that players you percieve to be "worse" or "less skilled" are winning as often as those you percieve to be "better" or "more skilled". Hense, skill plays less of a factor and the game becomes less competitive. That about it?

I'd like to meet the judge and jury of "pro Melee debaters" who has the authority to determine at their own descretion who is and who is not skilled. It seems to me as that the only true determinant of skill is how well they play (ie: whether they win or lose). And if someone can go toe-to-toe with a "Melee pro" they must be doing something right.

If you're the biggest, baddest "Melee pro" around and you lose to someone who couldn't wavedash to save their life - it isn't the game's fault. The other guy is just "better" at this new game than you are.

2) Brawl has only been out for a short amount of time, how long did it take to find Melee ATs[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]This would be relevant if the two games experienced similar launches. They didn't. Melee had a few SSB64 players who knew about z-cancelling, and there was no central intelligence like SmashBoards to really unite the community and combine everyone's knowledge.

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.
I won't lecture, since it's likely that you've forgotten more about advanced techniques than I'll ever know .

But it seems to me that Melee pros are being held back by their own limited thinking. Case in point - the folks who imported Brawl after the Japan release were so busy trying to discover their own advanced techniques that they failed to realize one of the more obvious new gameplay mechanics: spammed attacks reduce in damage and knockback. It took one of the moderators on Smashboards watching Youtube videos to make the disovery.

Similarly, I think those who have played Brawl for a week and decided it will be lacking in competitveness are failing to think outside the box. For instance, I assume the vast majority of the "testing" going on has been limited to 1 vs 1 matches with no items.

How much time have self-proclaimed "competitive" players devoted to new advanced techniques in team matches? How many of them have given an honest attempt at incorporating certain items into advanced matchs? Has anyone completely realized the potential metagame of radically new movesets like Snake's?

For anyone to say that they've found the depth in Brawl lacking after a mere week is laughable. As much as some people may like to think they can discover everything there is know so soon, the fact is that we are in uncharted waters. Talk to me again in six months.
 
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