Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

This reminds me of something that happened with Pokemon. In Diamond and Pearl, the division between special and physical attacks was opened significantly. It was no longer defined by type, it was defined by what it did. Thus, types that were "just special attacks", such as Ice, Grass, etc., could also be physical attacks. Everyone thought this would make the game less competitive; Pokemon could exploit a lot more weaknesses because they could now use a wider range of abilities to go with their statistics, making it "easier" for them. All it really did was significantly change the metagame, and add to the ones that were playable, and the technical skill just ended up finding new strategies based upon the new system and acknowledged that this was done to shake up what they had already relied upon in the past.

@Pink Reaper: yeah, tell me about it...

@Razorsaw: Similar, interesting, not necessarily true. I hope so, though. For Brawl's sake.

@Everyone else, I'm enjoying this debate and I think we're understanding eachother anyways. I know my opinion has been changed somewhat and I'm realizing more and more things about Brawl and the way the game works.

I'll start posting again in a few hours/tomorrow.

Pink Reaper said:

Am I the only one who notices that not only does Brawl not really require tech skill but it also doesn't require "Teching" skill? Like, seriously, I've never had to tech anything.

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I've noticed that, too.

Excellent thread by the way. I give it an 11/10 and nominate it for thread of the week.

Well, I admit I'm ill-informed, but maybe it's a signal to players to get away from the edgegame? Unbalancing or shaking up a mechanic seems to be, based on what I've seen in various games and fandoms, seems like an effort to get people to focus on or take an interest in developing another.

Tripping, though, I will admit is not meant to do anything but also make the game itself your enemy. Pokemon has an equivelant too. It's called "having your attack miss."

This is Melee's way of rewarding its most skilled players. It gives them consistent victories.

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And somehow we've managed to determine the most skilled players already?

What tech skill is involved?

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Right now, good use of inkdropping and wavebouncing with certain characters. What, you expect all the technical aspects of the game to be discovered two months into release?

I don't think the claim that less tech skill is involved in Brawl is a matter of opinion and I don't think anyone will agree with you

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Anybody arguing that there is no technical skill in Brawl is jumping the gun.

Get back to me in a year or so when people have had chances to experiment with every aspect of play and then use that sweeping generalization of 'infinite.'

Once, again, you're making the blanket assumption that people who don't like Brawl are better at it than those who do like it. And as a correlation, the game requires less skill because, obviously, that's the only way they can't be winning consistently. You've backed up your claim of technical skill by stating what Melee required. You can't possibly prove, so early on, that Brawl doesn't have any technical skill (New, undiscovered, and/or different != None). You have not backed up your claim that these people are losing due to this lack of technical skill requirement.

I've teched like..a throw. But that's it. I also noticed that I've tried to Wall-tech and nothing. D: Sad.

And also Wavebouncing is useless IMO. Very useless.

Thiocyanide said:

Right now, good use of inkdropping

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Ink dropping is TRIPPING! Its not a technique, it was a joke that came up at E for All. And wavebouncing isn't even all that useful. Face it, we've found plenty of glitches and such but the only real useful thing we've found is Falco's linking.

Pink Reaper said:

Ink dropping is TRIPPING! Its not a technique, it was a joke that came up at E for All. And wavebouncing isn't even all that useful. Face it, we've found plenty of glitches and such but the only real useful thing we've found is Falco's linking.

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Also Sonic's Dair cancel. Sonic's weird recovery with the Down-B and jump movement. Plus Dedede's odd walking thing with the jet hammer he sort of SWDs. And that's it really.

Ink dropping is TRIPPING! Its not a technique

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You can trip on purpose, you know. I'm not going to debate this with you, though - I've found it useful in some situations, and very annoying when I do it by accident in others.

Face it, we've found plenty of glitches and such but the only real useful thing we've found is Falco's linking.

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So you can say you've found all of them? I'm calling BS on that.

Also, Melee's techniques were not all discovered instantly. Don't throw that expectation onto Brawl. It doesn't deserve it.

And also Wavebouncing is useless IMO. Very useless.

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Your opinion, sadly, is wrong. Certain characters gain nothing from it, but Zelda, Lucas, Marth, and a few others have very useful techniques to pull off with it.

Like I said in my thread from a while ago, I think my biggest beef with the game is not the lack of advanced techniques, but the sudden change in physics.

Yes, I knew from Sakurai's news updates and various gameplay footage that characters were more anit-gravitational and were slower...but seeing it is different from actually playing it. When you see it you're like "Oh, well, that's probably just the beta stage--I'm sure it will be different." I did the same thing with the early footage of Halo 2--"Nah, it will be OK..." Then, when the game comes out, you realize that the developers didn't really have a clue of what they were doing.

The biggest problems with Brawl are undoubtedly the slowness, the floatiness, the tripping, the recoveries (you don't even have to face the ledge to grab it, nor do you have to be within about 8 feet to reach it), the fact that an airdodge can't be used as a recovery, and the terrible sound effects. I honestly think that if those things were fixed via patch or update, the game would be a lot better.

Then, though, there are some obvious character flaws. Why is Mr. Game & Watch so much weaker? There's no parachute attack, the manhole does barely anything...and Ganondorf? Don't get me started. He was awesome in melee, now he's fatter and much worse all around. I don't care if he's the Ganondorf from Twilight Princess and that he's "supposed to look like that"--Ocarina of Time OUTSHINES Twilight Princess by a long shot. Sakurai messed things up by ditching all the old Zelda stuff from melee.


Sakurai also said that he wanted no more clones, right? Does he now know that he completely contradicted himself on that statement, LOL? Yes, good...get rid of Young Link, replace him with a cartoon Link, but keep all his moves the same. Also, make a clone of Ness. And instead of having one clone of Fox, let's have two!

Also, let's make it easier for everybody to unlock the secrets of the game...seriously, play 5 versus matches to unlock Ness? Twice that many to unlock Marth? Beat subspace emissary on any difficulty setting to unlock about 10 different characters? Whatever happened to the CHALLENGE in unlocking characters? As for the stages, it's always some boring, tiring task. Play this stage ten times, or get this character in subspace emissary. Etc. etc. The first two smash games actually required you to DO STUFF to unlock things. The least Sakurai could have done is make you beat the game in a time limit to earn Sonic...

Also, let's make it easier for everybody to unlock the secrets of the game...seriously, play 5 versus matches to unlock Ness? Twice that many to unlock Marth? Beat subspace emissary on any difficulty setting to unlock about 10 different characters? Whatever happened to the CHALLENGE in unlocking characters? As for the stages, it's always some boring, tiring task. Play this stage ten times, or get this character in subspace emissary. Etc. etc. The first two smash games actually required you to DO STUFF to unlock things. The least Sakurai could have done is make you beat the game in a time limit to earn Sonic...

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The Subspace Emissary is only one way to unlock things, and even then - there's also the hidden stages, CDs, trophies (which actually takes some kind of effort and FUN now), stickers... Methinks you just missed a lot.

Nothing against you personally, but when you say that anti brawl players are not saying that brawl is bad, then you clearly haven't been reading enough.

Techs are glitches, lets be honest, AND THEY BROKE THE LAST GAME. I'm so glad that Brawls Roster actually seems to have more than three or four viable characters. No one talks about all the problems in melee because tohey are used to them all, but the game has it's own assortment to choose from. I also like that you can actually play on stages that don't have edges because broken waveshining is gone.

Glitches. They don't make a better game, they just create a uneeded barrier of entry, and uneven foundation between players. When they removed Quake 2's double jumping glitch everyone shouted that Quake 3 was dumbed down, but you'll be hard pressed to find someone these days who will say Quake 2 was a better game, or Quake 3 proved worse off without it.

Oh an Vitamin, Toon links moves are like 75% different from links. His whole air game is totally different.

boxelder said:

Techs are glitches, lets be honest, AND THEY BROKE THE LAST GAME. I'm so glad that Brawls Roster actually seems to have more than three or four viable characters. No one talks about all the problems in melee because they are used to them all, but the game has it's own assortment to choose from.

Glitches. They don't make a better game, they just create a uneeded barrier of entry, and uneven foundation between players. When they removed Quake 2's double jumping glitch everyone shouted that Quake 3 was dumbed down, but you'll be hard pressed to find someone these days who will say Quake 2 was a better game, or Quake 3 proved worse off without it.

Oh an Vitamin, Toon links moves are like 75% different from links. His whole air game is totally different.

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They didn't really broke the game, it just took it to another level. Of course, more characters would be viable if the game was played like the developper intended, but it doesn't really change anything.

Altough your second point is kinda good.

Techs are NOT glitches. The Ness yo-yo glitch was a glitch. Falling through corneria/pokemon stadium was a glitch. The soul stunner was a glitch. The super wavedash was a glitch.

Crouch cancelling: not a glitch. Its gone, and the game is worse without it.
Dash Dancing: Not a glitch. Also severely nerfed, now its harder to punish whiffs.

You're sort of right, techs create a barrier. A barrier between those who are good and those who aren't. This is the way it should be: people who have greater mastery of the game (glitches or no) should win.

Also: brawl is fun. Perhaps its less competitive, but I've been waiting for something new for a while now.

Also: tripping is ********.

Thiocyanide said:

Once, again, you're making the blanket assumption that people who don't like Brawl are better at it than those who do like it. And as a correlation, the game requires less skill because, obviously, that's the only way they can't be winning consistently. You've backed up your claim of technical skill by stating what Melee required. You can't possibly prove, so early on, that Brawl doesn't have any technical skill (New, undiscovered, and/or different != None). You have not backed up your claim that these people are losing due to this lack of technical skill requirement.

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This is the argument:

Brawl lacks many of the things which made melee competitive. Here's a list for you:

Mental Battles on Approach

Melee: Melee revolved around outsmarting your opponent on an approach, always by making them think you were going to do one thing (attacking, dashing, rolling), then doing another. The speed of the game, along with the variety of approach options (wavedashing, dashdancing,, triangle jumping, dash attacking, shffling, wavelanding, retreating, rolling, dodging) made this the single most competitive aspect of melee. You'll never see pros standing still in the game. Note that there are many, many more approach options beyond what I listed, especially when you get into character specifics.

Brawl: Brawl has very, very few approach options. Each one is incredibly predictable and easily punishable. You can dash, dash attack, aerial attack, air dodge, or roll. Each one is visible from a mile away. Because of this, approaching is no longer the most viable strategy. Rather, the best strategy is to sit across the stage and lob projectiles all match.

The difference:
There's no real way to be a mental step ahead of your opponent. If you play a fast character, you can easily predict an approach, and react accordingly. This does not mean Brawl is not competitive; rather, it means that it is less competitive in this area due to more limitations.



Punishment

Melee: In Melee, the significance of the approach was directly linked to the significance of the punishment. Once you successfully approached, you needed to deal in as much punishment as possible. For Marth, this usually mean Fair combos. For Fox and Falco, this meant shine combos. The point is, the better player would have won the approach and been rewarded accordingly.

Brawl: In Brawl, the significance of the approach is entirely indirectly linked to punishment. Lower hitstun makes it impossible to truly punish someone after a successful approach; in fact, most moves will lead to the attacker being punished more. For example: Wario has the following attack approaches: Dash Attack, Dash-cancelled upsmash, Bike, sh dair, sh fair, sh bair. At low percentages, any character will be able to recover almost immediately from hitstun and knock the beans outta Wario, despite Wario having made a successful approach.

The Difference
In Melee, the approach was only half the game. Once you started the punishment, it took quite a bit of skill to keep it going. In Brawl, even if you don't get punished for your approach, any decent player will use the crazy DI to prevent you from getting a followup. So why even approach? Again, Brawl is limited here, because there's no risk-reward.



Tripping

Melee: Moot. Did not have tripping.

Brawl: Tripping is entirely restrictive. Say we discover good ways to punish people. If they involve dashing, there's automatically a chance that even the best approach will fail.

The Difference
Tripping is entirely random. You claim to know how to trip; please share with the community. Extensive testing has shown that there is a 1% chance to trip on every dash animation.

Randomness is the bane of competitive smash. I've already listed two ways in which the risk outweighs the reward in Brawl's approach system; tripping is a third. Some people try to bring in different games as comparison... my favorite one so far has been Magic: the Gathering. Even in this seemingly random card game, the best players are the ones who minimize randomness. You'll see good players win consistently simply because they never fall victim to chance.



MAIN POINT

Brawl, right now, as a competitive game, does not allow for much more than camping and spamming. This is not a difficult strategy. Yes, some do it better than others... but let's say, for example, that I'm better than my friend at Brawl. I make better decisions, I play smarter, I play faster. However, since projectile spamming is incredibly easy, and I do not have a reliable method of approach, the skill gap is weakened. We are both at the same skill level, because we are both equally good at the dominant victory strategy--camping. The fundamentals which make games competitive do not exist--it's simply a question of who caves first in the projectile wars, and whether or not they get lucky with their approach. This is what it means for Brawl to be less competitive.

Now I will say tripping is kinda stupid, but both players are equally effected, so to me it's not a big deal. I'd rather not trip, but I don't think it's broken either.

boxelder said:

Now I will say tripping is kinda stupid, but both players are equally effected, so to me it's not a big deal. I'd rather not trip, but I don't think it's broken either.

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In one sense, both players are affected, but that's not true in practice. For example, I'm sure you would agree it's difficult to set up a successful approach.

Let's say you approach properly, and you've accurately predicted where your opponent is going to DI. You go to punish him--possibly with a kill--and trip. You've lost what little advantage you gained.

Let's say your opponent approaches you after you've gotten up. They successfully approach, predict your DI, and punish you accordingly... without tripping.

In this situation, both players had the same chance of tripping, but were not equally affected by it. Being equally affected would be a situation in which every character would trip every 10 dashes. Then it would have to be part of your game, and both players would be restricted in the exact same manner.

I really wish people would corroborate this camping and spamming thing with some actual match footage, because I just haven't seen that happen, at least not on a level worse than melee. Someone should watch Aniki play Link in the last game if they want to see what camping and spamming can really do. That dude is sick.

And pancake, I see what you mean for sure, but it still works both ways. It doesn't have to 100% about skill all the time. An element of chance is really key in keeping games fun. It's cuts down on predictability. One of the most popular games in the world is poker, and in any crad game chance is a key figure - it's how you use skill to shape and manipulate chance that skill shines through. Liek I said though, I disagree with tripping, but to me it's not a big deal.

Competitiveness at a tournament level in fighters too often comes down to bug abusing, IMO. Street Fighter had their little Flash kick cancels and Melee has the "glitchy air dodge into ground" cancels. I don't like the fact that a game became competitive simply because there are exploitable bugs. The programmers fix the glitches and suddenly the game is less competitive. Sure, maybe now it will take people less time to find advanced techniques, but surely there is competitiveness outside of "who can abuse the most glitches" in the game. The designers test the game without these glitches, and so the characters should be more balanced. In my opinion, they are. With this added balance, Brawl is competitive as well, so that who should win, no matter what character they play, will win.

In terms of "campers", stage banning should be loosened a lot, so that we're not playing on static stages, and that campers will have to move. If you're banning stages, how can you complain about campers? For example, there's not much randomness about a vertical or horizontal scroller. If it speeds up, it gives you fair enough warning, and the stage comes back in the same order every time. Why ban it? For items, I suggest just turning off the broken ones. After all, hammers were really nerfed in Melee, and in Brawl it's pretty easy to stay away for a hammer user since they only have one jump and you have two or more, not to mention up + B.

You still have the edge hog, priority, speed, damage, knockback, the fast fall, and all the other competitive aspects of Melee, save the glitches really.

I only notice the tripping when dash dancing or something to that effect. I think it's a fine way to keep players from changing direction too easily, but it should happen only for a specific reason, not randomly. If you want to approach safely, you can try stopping the dash and walking it in or short hopping it in

Brawl's massive recovery and floatiness slows the game down, and a slow game is a less competitve game, that's a fair argument however. Still, it forces players to make decisive blows instead of getting lucky pushes or pokes with good edge hog timing.

One thing Brawl has going for it that Melee didn't is the dimishing returns boost. This makes Brawl more competitive as it means you have to practice using more moves instead of spamming the C-stick marth smash or wall of deathing someone.

Another thing is the air dodge change. Without so much air control, your foe isn't going to find you randomly behind him after he tried to fair you to death. Also, we will see less lucky deaths based on air dodging and not being able to do anything (see falcon punch mindgame video).

Overall, I think Brawl has a few competitive aspects that Melee doesn't have, and that it can be jsut as competitive a game. And besides, people hated on Tekken for its half-health unescapable combos. If you can combo a character to 50% in SSb:B, isn't that pretty much half health? Most characters will die after taking a smash or strong aerial at 100%.

Thiocyanide, you have joined Dogenzaka as one of the people I will now refuse to respond to. You are not understanding what I'm saying and are doing nothing to further this debate. This is possibly the worst thing I have ever read:

Thiocyanide said:

Scar said:

This is Melee's way of rewarding its most skilled players. It gives them consistent victories.

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And somehow we've managed to determine the most skilled players already?

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Wow. Seriously, think before you post. Melee's way. Yes, we know the most skilled Melee players. What are you thinking?

I can't handle you anymore.

From what I've seen so far the main thing(according to everyones opinions which I then mashed together) that makes Brawl not as good for competition as Melee is that you have more time to think overall. This time to think makes the game more like chess and less of a quick thinking quick action oriented battle. Does this sound roughly correct?

In any case the game is still fun. I am pretty sure thats what matters most. If you don't think it is fun then why would you play it. Considering all of these "antibrawl" people are putting this much time and effort into explaining why Melee is better means they played Brawl a fair amount. The only reason you play Brawl is because you thought it was fun, otherwise you would not play it. If you are willing to spend money to play it then thats that.

boxelder said:

I really wish people would corroborate this camping and spamming thing with some actual match footage, because I just haven't seen that happen, at least not on a level worse than melee. Someone should watch Aniki play Link in the last game if they want to see what camping and spamming can really do. That dude is sick.

And pancake, I see what you mean for sure, but it still works both ways. It doesn't have to 100% about skill all the time. An element of chance is really key in keeping games fun. It's cuts down on predictability. One of the most popular games in the world is poker, and in any crad game chance is a key figure - it's how you use skill to shape and manipulate chance that skill shines through. Liek I said though, I disagree with tripping, but to me it's not a big deal.

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We aren't at top level play yet so you won't see spamming in matches yet. We're talking about after everything equilibrates. At that point, when the metagame is stabilized, the game will be a huge campfest.

Also, a resounding no to the random elements. They don't keep games fun, competition and innovation and awesomeness keeps games fun. I play on FD over and over and have fun the whole time, there is no randomness there. Tripping is a big deal to really good players in high stakes matches. Tournament matches put hundreds of dollars on the line, I don't care if it's not a big deal to you, it's a big deal to everyone else.

Comparing this to poker is wrong. Poker is gambling, Smash is not. They are entirely and completely different.

I will say however that Brawl is closer to gambling than Melee, which is exactly (nearly by definition) why I say Melee is more competitive. I'm gambling that I don't trip into Ike's FSmash.

Tipzntrix said:

Overall, I think Brawl has a few competitive aspects that Melee doesn't have, and that it can be jsut as competitive a game. And besides, people hated on Tekken for its half-health unescapable combos. If you can combo a character to 50% in SSb:B, isn't that pretty much half health? Most characters will die after taking a smash or strong aerial at 100%.

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I disagree with the reasons for why Brawl is more competitive. Knockback deterioration does not directly translate into more competition, it just makes certain characters better than others. I don't think this is going to help distinguish between good and bad players. Airdodging is up for debate.

Half-health combos... you can't combo a character to 50% unless it's a chaingrab which is way too easy to perform in the first place.

idk I just don't agree with this entire post.

boxelder said:

I really wish people would corroborate this camping and spamming thing with some actual match footage, because I just haven't seen that happen, at least not on a level worse than melee. Someone should watch Aniki play Link in the last game if they want to see what camping and spamming can really do. That dude is sick.

And pancake, I see what you mean for sure, but it still works both ways. It doesn't have to 100% about skill all the time. An element of chance is really key in keeping games fun. It's cuts down on predictability. One of the most popular games in the world is poker, and in any crad game chance is a key figure - it's how you use skill to shape and manipulate chance that skill shines through. Liek I said though, I disagree with tripping, but to me it's not a big deal.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKDBuKpeeUU

That was one of my first matches. It was when I discovered how pwntastic camping was with Falco. You'll notice that I'm almost always at an advantage (it was my first time playing vs. a sonic though, so some of his moves caught me off guard). Sonic, a character with no projectiles, is at an inherent disadvantage. Look at how much of the game I spent lasering, rolling, and punishing his approaches, no matter what they were.

There's also a big difference in poker and smash. High level poker players can draw crappy hands almost every single deal, and beat novices into the ground. Very little of that game is chance. However, there is the element of chance... but that's how the game works. Smash, at its most competitive, is not a game of chance. Sure, there's the occasional stitchface or d3 capsule, but they're not usually game-breaking. Tripping is much more game-breaking than that.

orintemple said:

From what I've seen so far the main thing(according to everyones opinions which I then mashed together) that makes Brawl not as good for competition as Melee is that you have more time to think overall. This time to think makes the game more like chess and less of a quick thinking quick action oriented battle. Does this sound roughly correct?

In any case the game is still fun. I am pretty sure thats what matters most. If you don't think it is fun then why would you play it. Considering all of these "antibrawl" people are putting this much time and effort into explaining why Melee is better means they played Brawl a fair amount. The only reason you play Brawl is because you thought it was fun, otherwise you would not play it. If you are willing to spend money to play it then thats that.

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It's a nice thought, and was my original thought, until I saw that the risk always outweighed the award. In chess, any move is designed to put mental pressure on your opponent. In Brawl, most moves take pressure off your opponent, and allow them to simply watch and punish you for trying to approach.

Cummon dude, the sonic suicided on his first stock and clearly had no idea what he was doing. I didn't see any air dodging at all, which is how you approach a spammer, BTW. Try it, it works.

Boxelder, please don't talk about Melee ATs in my thread, especially if you're going to call them glitches that break the game. It has no place here, you're not saying anything anyone appreciates, and you're not furthering this debate, which is what we all want to do.

Melee's ATs turned it into the most amazing and beautiful fighting game there is to date. You have no opportunity to be creative in any game like you did in Melee. That is fact.

I just don't feel that you're helping here.

boxelder said:

Cummon dude, the sonic suicided on his first stock and clearly had no idea what he was doing. I didn't see any air dodging at all, which is how you approach a spammer, BTW. Try it, it works.

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Air dodging is ridiculously punishable. And spamming doesn't mean shooting non-stop... it means firing until you're in danger, getting out of danger, retreating, and firing again. If he came at me and air-dodged, I'd just either punish him OOS or run away.

I've played many falco matches since, and spamming is incredible. I'll gladly wifi you if you don't believe me.

Scar, you make some really good points... but how can we solve world hunger?

D20 said:

Scar, you make some really good points... but how can we solve world hunger?

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Big sandwich.

D20 said:

Scar, you make some really good points... but how can we solve world hunger?

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Kill all the hungry people?

Super Drybones said:

Kill all the hungry people?

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Communist.

Yeah, and now that glitching is fixed how many people play as Star Fox, one of the lamest characters in the history of video games? People played him because the game wasn't balanced. You seem to have brainwashed yourself into thinking Melee was the perfect game, final destination is a perfectly fair stage for all characters blah blah blah, and none of it should be questioned even when the whole point is comparing the two games. All of it is so obviously wrong.

Personally, I think Brawl is more competitive (Yep I'm stupid dumb, Brawl sucks blah blah) I don't care. The characters feel more fleshed out. Removing certain techs doesn't instantly take away depth and a competitive nature. I for one feel the removal of L-canceling was a good thing. It puts more focus on good spacing, timing aerials so you don't land in the lag, and using all of your aerials at the right times to get the best out of your character. The stale move negation adds quite a bit to the game when you learn to manipulate it to your advantage. It can open up a combo by lowering the knockback of an attack. The characters seem to be more original with character oriented techniques instead of universal ones. It makes learning a character mean something. This will probably all be picked apart and taken out of context because its impossible for Brawl to be more of a competitive game than Melee. Because we all know how advanced Melee was a month after it came out. Roll spamming was pretty advanced.

Scar, the reason you never get any real substantive debate for the pro-brawl side on this issue is because there are no facts to back it up. And that's the sad truth

Brawl isn't as competitve as melee, and I do not think it ever will be. Give it a few years, there might be some "glitches" or exploits that make the game a little faster and more "competitive", but not to the extent that Melee is. There are just too many things going against it.

I mean, why take out l-cancelling and dash dancing? I really just don't understand the reasoning for this. Maybe it's because the developers knew that the casual player would now be online, potentially playing against pros, and they didn't want them to get discouraged after getting their *** handed to them. So, the developers dumbed the game down a little. It hurt the small, insignificant (from a financial standpoint) competitive scene while making the game more accessible and noob friendly to the masses. It sounds like every other game on Wii, and the path that Nintendo has been going down for the past few years. Im sure Mario Kart Wii will be no exception...


And one thing I don't understand is people's aversion to ATs in Melee. Did you get beaten by a friend that used them? I just don't understand it. IMO, after I learned ATs my heightened ability with the game made it FAR more fun than it was before because I could do so much more with the characters. Playing Melee without them is boring in comparison. Even just watching the pro matches are entertaining because of the insane speed of it. It's something that is unmatched in any other game... and its what gave Melee such staying power.

Vitamin said:

Then, though, there are some obvious character flaws. Why is Mr. Game & Watch so much weaker?

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Game and Watch is better, and his nair and dtilt are still good, just not as beastly as before. He's certainly been improved overall, just those two attacks are somewhat worse. Ganondorf does seem pretty awful, I'll give you that

Sakurai also said that he wanted no more clones, right? Does he now know that he completely contradicted himself on that statement, LOL? Yes, good...get rid of Young Link, replace him with a cartoon Link, but keep all his moves the same. Also, make a clone of Ness. And instead of having one clone of Fox, let's have two!

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He never said no clones. That is completely false. And all the "clones" really play quite differently.

Also, let's make it easier for everybody to unlock the secrets of the game...seriously, play 5 versus matches to unlock Ness? Twice that many to unlock Marth? Beat subspace emissary on any difficulty setting to unlock about 10 different characters? Whatever happened to the CHALLENGE in unlocking characters? As for the stages, it's always some boring, tiring task. Play this stage ten times, or get this character in subspace emissary. Etc. etc. The first two smash games actually required you to DO STUFF to unlock things. The least Sakurai could have done is make you beat the game in a time limit to earn Sonic...

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Most of Melee's stages were gotten through events or by playing a lot of vs. matches. Most of Brawl's stages are gotten...through events or vs. matches. Melee's characters were easy to unlock too, for the most part. Making a character take a long time to unlock isn't making the game challenging. It's just annoying and gives the player an obnoxious hoop to jump through before multiplayer can be played at its full potential. Leave the hard stuff to optional things like trophies.

Scar, I've seen your Melee vids and they are absolutely ridiculous. So you have my respect. But the fact is, it doesn't really matter if Melee is more competitive than Brawl. "Pro" players are going to play where the money is located, and since Brawl is a newer, more popular game on a newer, more popular system, there's probably going to be more Brawl cash tournaments than Melee ones. So while Melee is more "competitive" than Melee, it just truly doesn't matter.

I do agree with you that tripping is total horse****. Casuals and competitive players alike HATE it. When I'm playing with 4 people and all items, you're guaranteed to hear at least one "god ****it i hate tripping" every match. The same goes if I'm 1v1ing someone with no items for practice.

When 2 or 3 characters dominate a game I feel don't think the game is competitive. Its lopsided, a competitive game has to have a every character usable and skill and tactics of all types need to be balanced. Sorry melee skills didn't transfer over but this is a new game and a practical one in my view. Having slow as hell DDD and Charizard mixing it up with Fox and Falco? Tell me how thats not competitive. You have 2 radically different fighting styles that require timing, speed and knowledge but in different degrees but in the end the player who used his character the best wins.

In Melee a skillful Fox would destroy and equally skillful but lower tiered DDD every time and hence the game is not as competitive.

You can't combo to 50% anymore in Brawl, but that's my point. Maybe 50% was an exaggeration, but long combos aren't my cup of tea. Anything that's inescapable for too long can make the game a combo execution battle, which is mostly stale reused combos after the approach is made (and in the worst cases i.e. Marvel vs Capcom 2, infinites).
Wavedashing and L-cancelling reduced the balance by getting rid of the lag character were supposed to have. Sure they were ATs, but they were not taken into account when balancing characters, and made some characters a lot stronger, even though everyone can do it.
As to Falco, IMO with SHB really nerfed, he can't spam half as well. I often get caught putting away my blaster and get hit because the delay on it is greater (since he doesn't lose any delay on SHB anymore),

boxelder said:

I really wish people would corroborate this camping and spamming thing with some actual match footage, because I just haven't seen that happen, at least not on a level worse than melee. Someone should watch Aniki play Link in the last game if they want to see what camping and spamming can really do. That dude is sick.

And pancake, I see what you mean for sure, but it still works both ways. It doesn't have to 100% about skill all the time. An element of chance is really key in keeping games fun. It's cuts down on predictability. One of the most popular games in the world is poker, and in any crad game chance is a key figure - it's how you use skill to shape and manipulate chance that skill shines through. Liek I said though, I disagree with tripping, but to me it's not a big deal.

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Watch all 7 matches of this set if you can bear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CokhRDJlvxI