Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (UPDATE 1/15: MAJOR TX TOURNEY INFO)

What about... counterpicking items as you can counterpick stages? :o Cause some items might be too advantageous to certain characters or just too good and some could be standard items, but you could cp an item from some list after the first match if you lost, for example. Or you could turn 1-2 items on from the cp list before the game begins.

Samochan said:

What about... counterpicking items as you can counterpick stages? :o Cause some items might be too advantageous to certain characters or just too good and some could be standard items, but you could cp an item from some list after the first match if you lost, for example. Or you could turn 1-2 items on from the cp list before the game begins.

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Great idea.

scotu said:

i doubt this form of competition will take off, but i know some people who might be interested. it just seems like the title "Casual Competitive" are directly in conflict, which is why i don't see this taking off as a truly competitve format with any developed metagame, but i hope you guys succeed.

@Majist: lolno. FD is a pretty bad fox stage, esp in the ditto.

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If you have nothing other to say than to point out the "contradiction" in the league name, then you have nothing to say. Please wait to post until you do.

BigRick said:

Hey pal, u forgot this one:

E) To create a situation that will maximise Jack Kieser's chances of winning

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There's no need for that kind of hostility. If you don't like the idea, you don't have to post here.

I, for one, am very excited to see just how this develops. It looks intriguing.

So, what's your opinion of walled stages? So far, things aren't looking good for them (wall infinites, DDD's chaingrab), but do you think items could make them less of a problem? I'm not exactly sure what items would make anyone stop a wall infinite in progress, but there's bound to be something (bombombs maybe?)

Sonic Wave said:

So, what's your opinion of walled stages? So far, things aren't looking good for them (wall infinites, DDD's chaingrab), but do you think items could make them less of a problem? I'm not exactly sure what items would make anyone stop a wall infinite in progress, but there's bound to be something (bombombs maybe?)

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I think the "big" item like the Sand Bag or Crate may help. At the very leats I know they absorb a few laser bolts, so if it pops up in between a laser lock you can escape. I am not sure if it also absorbs A locks or disrupts spacing in Chain grabs.

Either way I think Wall stages should be the major thing to experiment with 1st Stage wise.

Sonic Wave said:

So, what's your opinion of walled stages? So far, things aren't looking good for them (wall infinites, DDD's chaingrab), but do you think items could make them less of a problem? I'm not exactly sure what items would make anyone stop a wall infinite in progress, but there's bound to be something (bombombs maybe?)

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Assuming they dont get fixed for the american version (or patched or some crazy thing). There is low number of stages that those would be performable on anyways. Some of which are banned already in most peoples minds (Rumble Falls). Im not entirely convinced DDDs chain grab is broke to begin with (With it hes a good combatant, without it hes only okay).

And I thought those wall infinites could be DIed out of (making them not infinite)?

Sephi_hatu said:

Assuming they dont get fixed for the american version (or patched or some crazy thing). There is low number of stages that those would be performable on anyways. Some of which are banned already in most peoples minds (Rumble Falls). Im not entirely convinced DDDs chain grab is broke to begin with (With it hes a good combatant, without it hes only okay).

And I thought those wall infinites could be DIed out of (making them not infinite)?

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I believe the rapid jab infinites can be DIed out of, but the laser lock and DDDs infinite grab still work perfectly. I think the infinite shine still works too.

DDDs chaingrab would only be a problem on walled stages, where it becomes an infinite (since you don't go farther when you have more damage). Not a big problem, but definately one worth testing.

Samochan said:

What about... counterpicking items as you can counterpick stages? :o Cause some items might be too advantageous to certain characters or just too good and some could be standard items, but you could cp an item from some list after the first match if you lost, for example. Or you could turn 1-2 items on from the cp list before the game begins.

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I don't think the point of this is too make a more balanced game. I think the point of this is to play Smash Bros on settings that are very close to the default ones.

Sonic Wave said:

So, what's your opinion of walled stages? So far, things aren't looking good for them (wall infinites, DDD's chaingrab), but do you think items could make them less of a problem? I'm not exactly sure what items would make anyone stop a wall infinite in progress, but there's bound to be something (bombombs maybe?)

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I would think items would be something to rely on in order to stop a infinite like those. Potentially bobombs could stop it but it is probably after the infinite has gone on so long that it would be around the time when Dedede would have already up+tilted to kill the opponent. The big question for this group is, are infinites worth banning stages? Some fighting games even allow infinites that eventually start doing zero damage over time, and if they set it up they are allowed to keep doing that until a time over occurs (melty bloody is a good example). Community could put caps on it, such as not being able to perform the infinite after 500% (but this is a sort of odd rule). Could always play by the idea that if you get caught in the infinite you deserve to lose though.

edit: double post... yay

Team Giza said:

I don't think the point of this is too make a more balanced game. I think the point of this is to play Smash Bros on settings that are very close to the default ones.

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Well, certainly not to make it more balanced, but balance is an issue. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would think a big point of this is to make a tournament scene that is more accessible to people who don't usually go to tournaments, and a list of banned stuff is kind of counter-intuitive.

Team Giza said:

I would think items would be something to rely on in order to stop a infinite like those. Potentially bobombs could stop it but it is probably after the infinite has gone on so long that it would be around the time when Dedede would have already up+tilted to kill the opponent. The big question for this group is, are infinites worth banning stages? Some fighting games even allow infinites that eventually start doing zero damage over time, and if they set it up they are allowed to keep doing that until a time over occurs (melty bloody is a good example). Community could put caps on it, such as not being able to perform the infinite after 500% (but this is a sort of odd rule). Could always play by the idea that if you get caught in the infinite you deserve to lose though.

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Hmm... (the only walled stage I can think of this early in the morning is Shadow Moses, so I'll use that one) in terms of relying on items to break an infinite, I would expect that it wouldn't be the best idea. I mean, on SMI, there are platforms directly over the entire stage, so the odds an item spawning right in the way of an infinite are kind of low already; add to that the fact that there are few items that absorb hits in that manner, and we have a bit of a problem. I don't have Brawl yet, though (****it), so everything I'm saying is just conjecture.

I like this very much. Here's hoping all can go without banning, and that this becomes a truly open competitive scene. Of course, if there truly is any fun ruining or game breaking elements that have to be removed, then there should be an overwhelming majority of or unanimous votes.

Why did this thread die? It was such a great idea and quelled so much flaming while it was up.

The thread died cause the majority of the people interested do not have the game yet.

Ya, come back next week, I'll have some vids by then.

Wouldn't having competitions for causal play not make it causal since it is a competition?

Bailey said:

Wouldn't having competitions for causal play not make it causal since it is a competition?

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Well yeah, of course it does, but the whole concept of items in Smash Bros. is pretty much auto-labeled casual play. I definitely do think there should be a more suitable title when the game comes out though.

When you visit this thread though, at least you know what to expect.

Then you can't really call yourself casual players if you plan on entering this tournament, because if you do you become a competitive player and then have to hate your former self.

/Thread Win/

Oh no! He's found out our true purpose: to create a paradox and have the resulting tear in space-time consume the universe!

Have you ever been to a free buy-in holdem tournament at a bar? they are casual players, theres not a lot of money up for grabs, and everyone always has a blast. and, they all take it seriously, so its competitive. competitive does not have to mean cut-throat. this idea will flourish if it gets started, there are SO many more casual players than competitive.

Maybe we could called the variation of rules "Jack Rules" or "Paradox rules" that could be added to a tournament anouncment to let everyone know how it would run.

I really love this idea. Hope it gets up and running soon!

Well, in less than 24 hours, we'll have Brawl in the US, so we'll be able to get started in earnest then. I know myself and at least 2 of my good friends are going to help me all next week to test different combinations of rulesets and items to see what works; as soon as I get some good data, I'll post up findings and such to give an example of... stuff.

(It's too late here.)

i think you shouldnt cal lit casual. just smashual. you now its jsut normal ssbb. nothing else. the others is competitive smash or competitive ssbb. thats where we try to get everyone a 100% equality even tho theres tiers >.> lol makes sense right?

i love competitive but i want to try how this goes.

Okay, so now that the games out, I would love to try some different game types with people to determine what would be best.

My FC is:
0087-1978-8381

Majist said:

wooord. i'm glad someone finally organized something like this. myself included, everyone's so fixated on ONE setting for the competitve smash scene these days:

NO ITEMS

FOX ONLY

FINAL DESTINATION

but it's good to have a little variety and actually ENJOY the game for a change.

smash balls are so busted, but GOD they're fun

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I'm not an elitist but i play competively and ignorant people like you honestly piss me off.

First of all have you ever thought maybe the people that play in tournament environments ENJOY the game?

Second off that whole Fox Only FD no items thing wasn't funny two years ago and isn't funny now. So yeah stop posting unless you have something intelligent to say.

Good luck with this Jack, i don't really know ya but hey if it works out good for you.

I've updated the second post, which will be a news post from now on. Please check it out, and happy testing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNkWlrubGgM

A fine example of why bombs should be on the ban list.

Also shows how pokeballs are rather broke.

Sephi_hatu said:

Just wanna say, Im glad someone took the initiative to do this. Will quell alot of arguing.

Personally, I will be recording many videos and posting alot of relevant info. Im having a party to celebrate brawls release, and its the perfect place to do this.

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cough...cough.... my party ....cough...cough =D

I'm planning on making a spreadsheet so that it's easier to read this data... but I'll do that later.

ITEM TEST 1

Global Variables
Stage: Final Destination
Character: Mario (Both)
Style: 1v1
Human Players: 0
CPU Players: 2 (Lvl 9 and Lvl 7)
Time Limit: 3:00
Stock: None


Control Set Results
Matches Played: 10
Matches Won: (Lvl 9 = 9) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Sudden Death Wins: (Lvl 9 = 0) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Total Kills in All Matches: (Lvl 9 = 20) ; (Lvl 7 = 8)


Item Set Results
Matches Played: 10
Matches Won: (Lvl 9 = 9) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Sudden Death Wins: (Lvl 9 = 0) ; (Lvl 7 = 1)
Total Kills in All Matches: (Lvl 9 = 20) ; (Lvl 7 = 12)
Number of Kills Using Items: (Lvl 9 = 5) ; (Lvl 7 = 3)


Item Information
Item Rate: Low

Items Used: (Sandbag) (Food) (Dragoon) (Super Mushroom) (Poison Mushroom) (Warp Star) (Metal Box) (Bunny Hood) (Stopwatch) (Lightning) (Beam Sword) (Home Run Bat) (Fan) (Lip's Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Ray Gun) (Fire Flower) (Cracker Launcher) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Mr. Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Hothead) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Bumper) (Spring) (Unira) (Soccer Ball) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

Items Not Used: (Smash Ball) (Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Starman) (Superspicy Curry) (Hammer) (Golden Hammer) (Bob-omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Team Healer)

Item On/Off Ratio = 34:14

Post-test Writeup


This test was mainly to establish a benchmark for future tests, but I really like how this one came out. The two CPU players assured that I always knew the exact difference in skill, which made for a good control group. I would have liked to have more matches per set, but I simply didn't have the time; that's what future tests are for, I suppose.

In the control group, it was obvious that the lvl 9 would consistantly win over the lvl 7, which is what you would expect; they are just far apart enough in skill to assure this, but not so far that the lvl 7 doesn't have a chance in hell to win. The lvl 7's only win came from a sudden death, which is basically a coin toss, anyway. The item set is where the results get interesting.

I chose a very conservative item set for this test to use as a benchmark, and honestly, things came out exactly as I expected them to. The results were barely different from the control set, with the main change being a larger total kill count. The numerics do not show this, but I observed much more dodging from the CPU's (both at appropriate and inappropriate times) with items on. Numerics also cannot show the behavior of the CPU's, which was interesting to say the least. The CPU player has trouble picking up items, as even a lvl 9 refuses to use a dash attack to pick up items (which is faster, safer, and more efficient than simply stopping at an item and picking it up). Both CPU players always walked to items, rarely dashing at all. The AI is not very good at handling certain items, as well, as the Cracker Launcher was totally ineffective (they both just fired at the ground the whole time, as fast as possible), while the Super Scope couldn't be used near the edge, as the CPU would usually fall off while rapid firing, causing a SD.

An interesting note is that when any mushroom spawned, the CPU players hesitated to pick it up; I think this is the crux of why the mushrooms, stopwatch, and lightning are, though a little unbalanced, still viable items: because there is an element of risk involved, sometimes it is better to just leave the item alone.

I think that, based off the results from this benchmark, a final item set will be able to include almost all of the items. Due to Sephi's bomb video, as well as experience over the last week, I'm reletively sure that bombs (or at least Bob-ombs, Smart Bombs, and maybe Deku Nuts) will need regulation of some kind, due to the fact that A ) a stray attack or bad spawn means death in many cases, which was a big problem with exploding containers both in the past and now, and B ) because skillful item usage is a concern and these items can score kills at low percentages with little skill involved (simply throw and enjoy). Smash Balls, Assists, and Pokeballs, due to their power and (in the case of Assists and Pokeballs) random nature will, most likely, be decided on a tournament-by-tournament basis, with CCL approval for general use. Two hammers is unneccessary; the basic one will more than likely be enough. Healers... well, are simply too powerful for how easy it is to get them. Starmen and Curry need more testing, but they probably will be fine, as in order for them to be effective, you still have to chase down your opponent.

Again, I feel that this test proved a lot for item viability in a competitive setting. I will have results from an actual tournament this Sunday, so I will use the item list that is currently in the news post of this thread for that.

I'd love to help in any way.

I'd just like to say that, as a "casual" player who is just getting into the whole competitive aspect of Smash Bros., this whole project is very interesting to me. It's definitely something I'd throw my support behind.

Also, as a suggestions, I think it might be a good idea to create a website specifically for the CCL, with all the rules and even a forum, maybe.

Why dont you call it the Item Based Competition League.
Casual Competition League is misleading and a contradiction in itself.Considering that there will still be a ruleset,competition,a winner and a loser.

Just because you turn items on doesnt make it casual.

Uck said:

Why dont you call it the Item Based Competition League.
Casual Competition League is misleading and a contradiction in itself.Considering that there will still be a ruleset,competition,a winner and a loser.

Just because you turn items on doesnt make it casual.

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It's early in the morning here, so I'm probably not going to explain this right, but here goes. The fact that items are used in the 'CCL' (which, as it says in the OP, is technically a tentative title) isn't what is most important. The fact that the CCL is a league where anyone can come to both have fun and find competition is, however.

The CCL probably won't be as popular as conventional Smash tournament play, but it will be a great stepping stone for introducing new players to tournament play. We, literally, want to have a more casual (laid-back) competitive scene, a place where you aren't playing for big checks or anything like that. It takes a while for people to really think about it sometimes (because it is a different way of thinking), but 'Casual Competition' is in no way an oxymoron.

Sephi_hatu said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNkWlrubGgM

A fine example of why bombs should be on the ban list.

Also shows how pokeballs are rather broke.

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why? simply cause you got ***** by them?

would be more simple to keep all items and reduce their appearance since it's a 1v1 situation

Jack Kieser said:

It's early in the morning here, so I'm probably not going to explain this right, but here goes. The fact that items are used in the 'CCL' (which, as it says in the OP, is technically a tentative title) isn't what is most important. The fact that the CCL is a league where anyone can come to both have fun and find competition is, however.

The CCL probably won't be as popular as conventional Smash tournament play, but it will be a great stepping stone for introducing new players to tournament play. We, literally, want to have a more casual (laid-back) competitive scene, a place where you aren't playing for big checks or anything like that. It takes a while for people to really think about it sometimes (because it is a different way of thinking), but 'Casual Competition' is in no way an oxymoron.

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Yes it is.

plz don't think that you guys will have more fun than the stantard tourney players
plz don't think that you guys will be more ''laid-back'' plenty off ppl go to tourneys just to chill and goof around cause they know they wont be winnin anyways

I agree with mr Uck

good luck with this mr Kiezer

BigRick said:

why? simply cause you got ***** by them?

would be more simple to keep all items and reduce their appearance since it's a 1v1 situation

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Actually, that video is a great indicator of one of the reasons items were banned in tournament Smash in the first place: exploding items spawning in random locations. I wish I had a capture card so I could upload it, but a friend of mine and I were attempting to beat Co-op Event 21 with Ike and Lucario, and the reason that it took so many tries was because as Ike was preparing to destroy another CPU opponent a bomb would spawn around him and... boom. Ike dies.

Bomb-items simply give too much reward for too little investment, in my humble opinion. And screw people over too easily. But, like I said in my Item Test 1 write-up, there's going to be more testing to make sure I'm not jumping the gun.

BigRick said:

Yes it is.

plz don't think that you guys will have more fun than the stantard tourney players
plz don't think that you guys will be more ''laid-back'' plenty off ppl go to tourneys just to chill and goof around cause they know they wont be winnin anyways

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Well, agree to disagree, I suppose. And it's not that people will be having more fun (as if anyone could even measure something like that)... it's that people might have a different kind of fun. I'm sure it'd be hard to argue that part of the allure of large-scale tournaments like Smash Fests or MLG isn't related to big checks or glory on the battlefield; by many tournament-goer's own admission, the current tournament scene was created to see who was the best, and some people (as is their right) do un-fun things to win.

That's fine, but this league is different. It's not better, nor is it worse. It's different. But this is starting to get tangential, and I'd like to stay away from arguments on 'better playstyles' and 'right way and wrong way'. This isn't really the place to discuss those things.

you must be careful though... items or not, prize money or not, there will always be room for ppl doing ''unfun'' stuff in order to achieve victory

as the organizer of this movement, you must be aware of this... and its impossible to totally eradicate this

BigRick said:

you must be careful though... items or not, prize money or not, there will always be room for ppl doing ''unfun'' stuff in order to achieve victory

as the organizer of this movement, you must be aware of this... and its impossible to totally eradicate this

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That's exactly why we're doing this, though. For instance, people have found things like Dedede's chain grab or Falco's Laserlock, and really, who knows what else, that won't work in our setting. Items negate these strategies, to some degree. Items can really affect what strategies are effective to win, and can make things very different. We don't know to what extent yet, because we haven't had any CCL tournaments yet, but really the possibilities are endless.

This is a great idea!

IMO You will need to still ban exploding items and instant-use items (such as food).

Exploding items as everyone knows just ruin games by spawning in the middle of your attack/recovery/etc.

Food and other instant use items will basically never be gotten first by slower characters, whereas all other items can be "fumbled".

SMASH BALL MUST BE ON! It's the most fun item outside of the Sticky bomb.

Also, please leave in sticky bomb as an exception to the no-explosives thing.

Im not 100% sure Stars, Spicy Curry and Hammers should stay. From what I see the same scenario happens everytime one of these items gets picked up it becomes a rather boring game of keep away. Something that just eats time is not very exciting to watch nor does it require much imagination of the two players part what to do when it happens.

Now there are a few moves that can disrupt the curry and hammer, but the Star is completely without strings attach and can appear at very inappropriate times. While it may not have an immediate effect like a bomb but it still shifts the entire fight to a game of tag.