Smash Brawl Icon Discovery

the grim lizard · Oct 22, 2007

I've said it all along that the alphabetizing is too inconsistant. That doesn't mean there isn't SOME order to it, but it certainly isn't that, unless someone can show me something a little more organized than the haphazard switching between name and series (I've yet to see it, and I've disproven the only attempt I've heard).

In any case, this little icon deal really does blow my mind. I would doubt Miis (I already did) simply because they have nothing to do with DS. I would doubt a Wii stage simply because they put all of the Wii music on this stage as well. I really don't know much about the touch generation, but anyone who's paying attention surely has noticed that the way they are doing the stage displays are the universe icon, the name of the stage, and above those is a logo for the game it is from (take a look at BoE or DI to see what I mean). The logo for this stage is the Pictochat logo. All that in mind, I really can't see a character going with it, but I think we need to take all of these clues and put this all together somehow.

X-x-Dyce-x-X · Oct 22, 2007

I really don't understand how people can argue the "Japanese Titles with English spellings put into Alphabetical Order" theory at this point.

It goes that way for the original SSB64 icons, then starts over for the new Melee icons that weren't already in SSB64, and then starts over for the new Brawl icons that weren't already in Melee.

Sure the "DS" theory might screw that up, but the "Touch Generation" theory keeps it right on par.

Zek · Oct 22, 2007

X-x-Dyce-x-X said:
I really don't understand how people can argue the "Japanese Titles with English spellings put into Alphabetical Order" theory at this point.

It goes that way for the original SSB64 icons, then starts over for the new Melee icons that weren't already in SSB64, and then starts over for the new Brawl icons that weren't already in Melee.

Sure the "DS" theory might screw that up, but the "Touch Generation" theory keeps it right on par.

It doesn't work with SSB64 or Melee at all, unless you arbitrarily alternate between character names and series names. But yes, up until now it has worked for Brawl. The question now is this icon - it seems strange to call it "Touch Generations" when it's really the official logo of the DS and Pictochat was developed before they even started that ad campaign. I think the alphabetical theory has a lot of holes, and at the very least it isn't reliable enough to base any solid assumptions on so I don't see much point.

the grim lizard · Oct 22, 2007

Inconsistency. Inconsistency makes refuting a theory pretty easy.

The division by game is pretty obvious, but the organization within is obviously questionable.

Rx- · Oct 22, 2007

Having Miis as playable characters would be such a twisting thing to do. But it seems so simple, and now that the new icon is here, it seems so likely!

Brawlmatt202 · Oct 22, 2007

Seeing this new "DS Universe" has made me have doubts about an AC representitive...

I mena, who could possibly represent the DS?!

...Professor Kawashima?! He was on Sakurai's Poll, but he only appears as a head!

freeman123 · Oct 22, 2007

The icon is the DS symbol. So it seems like it would be called DS. It seems like there could be another section. DS could be the beginning of a new section of stages that don't have playable characters. There could be a Wii sports stage and things like that too.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is a playable character to go with that icon, and the icon does fit somehow. I have no idea who the character could be. I was thinking Mii at first, but why would they use the DS logo to represent Mii?

I'm guessing the character that goes with this stage is the new wtf character. Remember how Mr. Game & Watch wasn't technically a character until Melee? Maybe the new character will be Mr. PictoChat or something, and he'll just be a hand drawn stick figure. Or maybe they'll call him Stickman, which would fit the icon theory.

Stryks · Oct 22, 2007

Theres no doubt that the DS icon character will be the WTF character, but think about it, why in a DS icon stage would they put Mii channel music? Im guessing the icon represents more than just DS IMO, maybve thats the Mii icon? bash me if u want, but explain the Mii channel music...

Titan05 · Oct 22, 2007

freeman123 said:
. Remember how Mr. Game & Watch wasn't technically a character until Melee?

You sure about that?

Conker1 · Oct 22, 2007

Having an icon means there is a character and/or stage.

There will be no DS character just like there will be no AC character. If a character from a new series was going to be present, they would've announced them before their stage.

They probably just had a great idea to make a PictoChat level. What kind of symbol would they have put for the stage? The Smash icon wouldn't make sense.

Pomfrod · Oct 22, 2007

Wasn't it proven a while back, with hard statistics, that even with the haphazard switching between character and franchise, there is less than a 0.1% chance that the apparent alphabetical order is random? Can we not make progress here? All this talk about "inconsistency refutes a theory" is bunk, because alpha theory has shown remarkable consistency.

But this isn't for now. If they had intended "Touch Generations" they would have used either the stylus and "G" logo or the three people holding hands logo. It seems "DS" is the most applicable option here. Basically, if I were to bet on it now, I'd say that we're done, that 21 begins non-character additions. I could also forsee Wii stages, where one can control certain platforms with the Wii-remote, as icon 22. This leaves slot 19 open, which according to alpha theory, which hasn't been wrong given the parameters, should be Pikmin. This knocks out both Megaman and Balloon Fighter, which is fine. I guess we only get one retro addition per generation. Although, I thought for sure BF would make it when they showed that the bumper now functioned like the spinner did, thereby practically removing the spinner from the items list and opening it up to be used in BF's moveset.

Good night, sweet prince.

Stryks · Oct 22, 2007

actually pomfrod, megaman in japanese is rockman, so he CAN fit in the 19 slot, sure its a long shot, competing with pikmon, but u never know...

Phaazoid · Oct 22, 2007

i just think this goes to show that there doesn't have to be an animal crossing character just because of the icon/stage. unless the DS is a playable character, were not getting a character from this series. i also wonder how many icons there will be now though... with icons like this appearing.

SirPainsalot · Oct 22, 2007

Ds Logo!!!!!!! Omg! Smiley For Brawl!

tirkaro · Oct 22, 2007

wait.....you mean after this....... people STILL belive in the icon theory!?

seriously, whats wrong with you people!?
THE ICON THEORY HAS BEEN DISPROVEN. NO, NINTENDO HARDWARE IS NOT GOING TO GET ITS OWN SECTION. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS. ANYONE WHO STILL HAS THE TINEST BIT OF HOPE LEFT FOR THAT STUPID THEORY IS IN DENIAL. HOW MANY TIMES MUST I REPEAT THIS!?

now that thats been said, olimar and megaman for brawl!

Zek · Oct 22, 2007

Pomfrod said:
Wasn't it proven a while back, with hard statistics, that even with the haphazard switching between character and franchise, there is less than a 0.1% chance that the apparent alphabetical order is random? Can we not make progress here? All this talk about "inconsistency refutes a theory" is bunk, because alpha theory has shown remarkable consistency.

It's very easy to end up with a list that's organized alphabetically when you hand-pick each entry to make it fit that theory. In what way is completely different naming criteria for various icons "consistency?" It makes no sense to use the name of the main character for the icons, when they're actually used to describe the series that a level/item/character came from. Face it, the list is completely riddled with inconsistencies. StarFox doesn't fit so it has to be Fox instead. F-Zero didn't fit so they called it Captain Falcon(lol). Zelda doesn't fit so they called it Link. And Ice Climber didn't fit so they called it Popo. And of course, the whole thing works under the assumption that they translated the names into phonetic English but didn't actually use the English spellings. Never has a rational explanation been provided for why the devs would have done all this when deciding the numbers. People just assume it must be right because it coincides with what they were hoping for when they made the list.

burrito · Oct 22, 2007

Conker1 said:
There will be no DS character just like there will be no AC character. If a character from a new series was going to be present, they would've announced them before their stage.

There is not enough precedent to assume this. Animal Crossing and DS are the only completely new franchises updated on the Dojo, so it is possible that Sakurai is building up suspense for the characters. This is, of course, disregarding the Sonic franchise of course, because it wouldn't have made any sense to reveal a stage before Sonic was revealed. Assuming this is pretty much just as silly as assuming that just because there is an icon, there has to be a character.

Norm · Oct 22, 2007

Good Stuff here\'s hopping one of those symbols is the Megaman X symbol heh.

PrettyGoodYear · Oct 22, 2007

X-x-Dyce-x-X said:
I really don't understand how people can argue the "Japanese Titles with English spellings put into Alphabetical Order" theory at this point.

It goes that way for the original SSB64 icons, then starts over for the new Melee icons that weren't already in SSB64, and then starts over for the new Brawl icons that weren't already in Melee.

Sure the "DS" theory might screw that up, but the "Touch Generation" theory keeps it right on par.

The japanese Touch Generation symbol is a bunch of stick people lined up. If Sakurai were to think about using the "Touch Generation" as a symbol, I guess that he, being japanese, developing the game in japan, would use that instead of the DS icon.

mezbomber · Oct 22, 2007

I'm hoping for Miis as a PC. I'm most drawn to the idea by imagining how it could be incorporated into the SE. The Ancient Minister is trying to suck all the video game universe into subspace...that includes the part where we interact. Here we are as gamers, using our pictochat, mingling with our Miis, raising our Nintendogs...and the minister wants to destroy that just as much. Not only do we need the combined efforts of legendary characters like Mario and Sonic, but they need our help as well. And how else are we to represent ourselves in their world? Miis.

Mario and Sonic need our help to defeat the Ancient Minister!!

PrettyGoodYear · Oct 22, 2007

mezbomber said:
I'm hoping for Miis as a PC. I'm most drawn to the idea by imagining how it could be incorporated into the SE. The Ancient Minister is trying to suck all the video game universe into subspace...that includes the part where we interact. Here we are as gamers, using our pictochat, mingling with our Miis, raising our Nintendogs...and the minister wants to destroy that just as much. Not only do we need the combined efforts of legendary characters like Mario and Sonic, but they need our help as well. And how else are we to represent ourselves in their world? Miis.

Mario and Sonic need our help to defeat the Ancient Minister!!

o_o

No... just... no.

Thank you for participating.

susu_atari · Oct 22, 2007

can someone post a link an alphabetical analysis post? this information should be included in the original post.

mezbomber · Oct 22, 2007

PrettyGoodYear said:
o_o

No... just... no.

Thank you for participating.

uh...okay...why?

X-x-Dyce-x-X · Oct 22, 2007

Dyce's Complete Icon List

-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-SSB64-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-

1. Dairanto Sumasshu Burazazu <Super Smash Bros.>

2. Donki Kongu (Donkey Kong) <Donkey Kong Country>

3. Fokkusu Makuraudo (Fox McCloud) <Starfox>

4. Kabi (Kirby) <Kirby's Dreamland>

5. Kyaputen Farukon (Captain Falcon) <F-Zero>

6. Samusu Aran (Samus) <Metroid>

7. Nesu (Ness) <Mother/Earthbound>

8. Poketto Monsuta <Pokemon> (Pikachu and Jigglypuff)

9. Rinku (Link) <The Legend of Zelda>

10. Supa Mario Burazazu <Super Mario Bros.> (Mario and Luigi)

11. Yosshi (Yoshi) <Yoshi's Island>
-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-

====================================================================================================

-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-Melee-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-

12. Faia Emuburemu <Fire Emblem> (Marth and Roy)

13. Misuta Gemu ando Wotchi (Mr. Game & Watch) <Game & Watch>

14. Popo / Nana (Ice Climbers) <Ice Climber>
-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-

====================================================================================================

-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-Brawl-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-

15. Dobutsu no Mori <Animal Crossing> [Smashville]

16. Meido in Wario <Wario Ware> (Wario)

17. Metaru Gia <Metal Gear> (Snake)

18. Hikari Shinwa <Kid Icarus> (Pit)

19. Robot <Robotic Operating Buddy> (R.O.B.)

20. Sonikku za Hejiihoggu <Sonic the Hedgehog> (Sonic)

21. DS <DS> [Pictochat]

22. Pikumin <Pikmin> (Pikmin & Olimar)

23. Electroplankton <Electroplankton> [Hanenbow]
-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-

KEY:
Underline = Title of Icon
<Carrot> = Name of Series
(Parenthesis) = Name of Originating Fighter(s)
[Brackets] = Name of Originating Stage

*The series or fighter(s) name immediately following the title is the direct translation of the title.*

BUnit · Oct 22, 2007

Yay Golden Sun might have a chance at fitting in at 19, I think the series' name in japanese starts with O.

Then again, it could be pikmin...

X-x-Dyce-x-X · Oct 22, 2007

Golden Sun's Japanese translation = Ogon no Taiyo Hirakareshi Fuin ("Golden Sun: The Broken Seal")

EDIT:
That 19th spot is so aggrivating. I don't know if I want Megaman, Pikmin, or Golden Sun more!

(No, I lied. Definitely Megaman. But why couldn't it be more obvious what goes there!?)

Lemon Drop · Oct 22, 2007

Lets all go for Rocman :D or Pikmin :D for number 19.

Notice that the characters that use a 'Character Name' are either in the Original or Melee Section. Well lets hope one of those two get number 19.

Bassoonist · Oct 22, 2007

Wait... Golden Sun still has a chance?

Yay!

As much as I love Pikmin, and think Captain Olimar deserves the spot, I'd much rather see Isaac.

I'm still hoping for both, though.

skyblue · Oct 22, 2007

That alphabet theory is rubbish in my opinion. Even if Sakurai put the icons in alphabetical order, don't you think that some icons would be added afterwards? What makes people think that all of the icons were thought out before hand?

tirkaro · Oct 22, 2007

X-x-Dyce-x-X said:
No order to the icons, huh?
Well, let me show you my research.

[speculative and inconsistant crap goes here]

*NOTES*

1) SSB64 and Melee go by the name of the FIRST character to appear from the series.
(Fox McCloud not Starfox; Captain Falcon not F-Zero; Marth not Fire Emblem [or Roy, for that matter.]; Link not The Legend of Zelda; etc.)

2) Brawl goes by the names of the SERIES, unlike the other two games.

3) Titles and names are alphabetized by the ENGLISH spellings of their JAPANESE names.

4) Metroid (Samus/#6) is the ONLY outlier to break the "order rules".

I honestly underestimated you icon people. it seems like you'll do anything to predict the updates, even if it means drowning in the pool of complete overspeculation known as the icon theory. just looking at the list, its obvious that the people who concieved this stupid list are COMPLETELY DESPRATE to make it seem like its in alphabetical order. even if it means putting things that make no sense whatsoever (for example, even if the icons are in alphabetical order, the guy who put it in order must have known a thing or two about english. see, romaji is VERY RARELY used in a casual context in japan, and is only used by people who mistranslated katakana, AKA, people who dont know squat about english. and even if it was in complete romaji, that so-called, "myth of light" icon, would not be called "myth of light." it would be called "hikari shinwa" see, hikari shinwa HAS no official english translation. at all. only kid icarus. heck, they could call it "light myth" or something. and I wont bother explaining the rest.)
oh, and icon 21 is for DS. not touch generations. that has a different icon. but whatever keeps your hanging-by-one-tenth-of-a-thread icon theory alive I guess.

That alphabet theory is rubbish in my opinion. Even if Sakurai put the icons in alphabetical order, don't you think that some icons would be added afterwards? What makes people think that all of the icons were thought out before hand?

what he said too.

X-x-Dyce-x-X · Oct 22, 2007

skyblue said:
That alphabet theory is rubbish in my opinion. Even if Sakurai put the icons in alphabetical order, don't you think that some icons would be added afterwards? What makes people think that all of the icons were thought out before hand?

The fact the only newcomers / new icons that weren't already established before the Dojo even started (that we know of) are... Sonic and "Touch! Generation". Remember, it's been YEARS since the release of the first Brawl trailer. Sakurai has had plenty of time to pick characters, their icons, and then put them in order.

I'll admit, there may be some outliers at the end. But I'll bet anything he doesn't fit in will have some order to them on their own.

And don't forget, it's still just a theory.

tirkaro · Oct 22, 2007

X-x-Dyce-x-X said:
And don't forget, it's still just a theory.

even if it is just a theory, its a really fishy theory. with a lot of inconsistancies. I heavily doubt it, and even if it does hold SOME water, its water will most likely be broken (LOL, C WUT I DID THAR) in due time. the DS icon was only the beginning. 'sides, Im certain sakurai is a better game designer than that to only include that little new franchises.

DragoonFenix15 · Oct 22, 2007

If you're going to write Captain Falcon as "Kyaputen" etc, then Mother needs to be "Mazaa". It does not fit after METROID in that case.

:\ I used to support this theory but the DS icon update killed it for me. And yes, I know Touch! Generations fits after Sonic, but.... ugh. Just look at the reasoning behind most of this, people. It's ridiculous. The only part I really believe in is the Newcomers since they SEEM to be relatively alphabetical, and the fact that it goes 64 / Melee / Brawl. That's it. Those are the only points that hold water.

X-x-Dyce-x-X · Oct 22, 2007

tirkaro said:
even if it is just a theory, its a really fishy theory. with a lot of inconsistancies. I heavily doubt it, and even if it does hold SOME water, its water will most likely be broken (LOL, C WUT I DID THAR) in due time. the DS icon was only the beginning. 'sides, Im certain sakurai is a better game designer than that to only include that little new franchises.

How many inconsistancies are there? I've only found one (the one with Samus).

And I've added the possibility to "DS" being the title of icon #21 to my post.

EDIT:
@DragoonFenix15:
It's not "Mother", it's "Nesu" (aka Ness). SSB64 and Melee used the character names, not their games/series.
And N comes after M. It fits just fine.

Tagxy · Oct 22, 2007

I thought this was obvious, but apparently not.

Meaning they did the characters first, THEN stages (or maybe just anything not having to do with characters). Oh em gee, the obvious is stated for the clueless. In other words, order is:

Characters alphabetically
....64
....Melee
....Brawl
Miscellaneous non-characters (we can't be sure how to define this or know what it contains yet such as stages or whatever, but it's important enough to have a symbol. I think its stages without a character symbol to represent it.)

More than likely this means there's still an animal crossing character, rockman, and a return of game and watch

Manjot · Oct 22, 2007

Those are some nice finds. Good job.

X-x-Dyce-x-X · Oct 22, 2007

EDIT:
Nevermind. I misread your post. And yes, that too is another possibility. But it's not backed up very well at this point.

Let's stay tuned and see what happens!

Brockman5 · Oct 22, 2007

I don't know anymore..? its all to complicated...

Mini Mic · Oct 23, 2007

El Raspa said:
well I think the icon is there just for the escenary

Or maybe it's just there to **** with us

PsychoIncarnate · Oct 23, 2007

There is NO 4th catergory for the Icon theory...

It goes

N64, Melee, then Brawl

NOTHING ELSE...

Smash Brawl Icon Discovery

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Master

A.K.A. Disafter

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Apprentice

Smash Hero

Basket

Smash Apprentice

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Ace

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