List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

Drunken_Dragon · Oct 16, 2007

like i was saying in the other thread. it looks like you can control the momentum of the movement to some degree. if these are final it sounds like wding will turn into something like triangle jumping.

side note: where are the hd vids of the 14th videos at? (besides ign )

ShortFuse · Oct 16, 2007

Drunken_Dragon said:
like i was saying in the other thread. it looks like you can control the momentum of the movement to some degree. if these are final it sounds like wding will turn into something like triangle jumping.

side note: where are the hd vids of the 14th videos at? (besides ign )

I'm thinking this... you can direct the motion of your dodge and it will give you momentum in that direction. Considering Sakurai is giving you the ability to dodge and jump, the momentum thing makes perfect since. If you air-dodge up in Melee, when the dodge is over, you'll go straight down, not ascending one bit and any horizontal moment is because of DI.

I'm ASSuming the change in Brawl is that when you air-dodge, after the dodge is over, you will continue with the correct momentum as the physics engine dictates. Taking another look at how Mario recovers with his Air-Dodge, he gracefully lands back as you would think any object would obeying the laws of Projectile Motion.

This would the wisest thing to implement since air-dodge after jump will be used as a recovery move so you don't drop like a brick after the dodge is over.

Jammer · Oct 16, 2007

I just wanted to say I'm thoroughly astonished how much attention to detail some of you guys have. Seriously, to go through videos frame by frame searching for clues--I could never do that.

The funny thing is that all this will be obsolete when Brawl comes out.

But until then, keep up the hard work.

ShortFuse · Oct 16, 2007

Jammer said:
I just wanted to say I'm thoroughly astonished how much attention to detail some of you guys have. Seriously, to go through videos frame by frame searching for clues--I could never do that.

The funny thing is that all this will be obsolete when Brawl comes out.

But until then, keep up the hard work.

It'll really help the months pass by.

I HAVE MORE CONFIRMATION FOR DIRECTIONAL DODGE!!!
(edit) no wait, no i don't.

(edit2) oh wait i do!

Frame-by-frame craziness again. I have IGN's 720p Video of the whole Gameplay demo. When Mario does his jump the angle is NOT the same as the air dodge angle.the Jump angle is more vertical than the dodge angle. This is a frame by frame observation. There IS momentum during and after the dodge, there is no doubt about that, but the vector (direction) change is too great. Not even DI could change the vector enough. There is very little of a Fy (vertical) force change but a noticeable Fx (horizontal) force push. It's directional.

Zek · Oct 16, 2007

"Momentum Air-Dodging," that is, the fact that airdodges maintain the momentum you had before with no speed boost, is 100% confirmed. Just look at Mario vs. Link, Mario's airdodge clearly has an arc trajectory during the dodge equivalent to his jump. The only question is whether or not that's just the neutral dodge and it's still possible to directional dodge. I would bet money at this point that directional dodging is gone entirely, and in exchange it doesn't stun you anymore.

ShortFuse · Oct 17, 2007

Wavedashing is DEAD!

This one is a win for Momentum Dodge (confirmed) and big lose for wavedash (disconfirmed)
okay, don't shoot me if you cry after watching this.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007...ash-bros-brawl”-using-the-classic-controller/

Diddy Kong at 1:50, he's DI'ing to the right. This means he's pressing right on the control stick. Then he dodges, but he goes in the same momentum as he always was, there is no air-dodge push to the right. since there is no increase in speed from his dodge, this will make wavedashing impossible, since there would be no "push" which is necessary for the character to slide across the ground.

DON'T HURT ME!

Zauron · Oct 17, 2007

ShortFuse said:
Wavedashing is DEAD!

This one is a win for Momentum Dodge (confirmed) and big lose for wavedash (deconfirmed)
okay, don't shoot me if you cry after watching this.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007...ash-bros-brawl”-using-the-classic-controller/

Diddy Kong at 1:50, he's DI'ing to the right. This means he's press right on the control stick. then he dodges, but he goes in the same momentum and he always was, there is no air-dodge push to the right. since there is no increase in speed from his dodge, this will make wavedashing impossible, since there would be no "push" which is necessary for the character to slide across the ground.

DON'T HURT ME!

Nice sleuthing! Confirms my suspicions.

CT Chia · Oct 17, 2007

i dont really see it. man that video is too low quality. il believe it with reports from E for All which is tomorrow

MunkyMan33 · Oct 17, 2007

i'm gonna miss sliding around dream land 64... *crosses fingers against hope*

Zek · Oct 17, 2007

Has any solid evidence of L-cancelling being automatic now been found yet? Theoretically it should be pretty easy, since it's obvious that nobody playing the game last week was good enough to do it themselves.

Chepe · Oct 17, 2007

Nah, but all air moves cancel very quickly when the character hits the ground before its over. Seriously, unless every person playing it pressed the shield button every time they landed while doing the move...

The lag seems so small that even if L-Canceling was still in, it wouldnt really matter much anymore.

Kix · Oct 17, 2007

Crispy4001 said:
If there is any evidence of a direction air dodge, this is the best there is:

Diddy's momentum is leading downwards and to the left, but you can see that Diddy gains some momentum directly to the left.

The catch? Diddy's a new character, so we can't be 100% if his is his air dodge. And we have no example (except an iffy one with Yoshi which could be refuted with the momentum arguement) that the air dodge can be used in a downward/diagonally-downward direction.

What is strange is that looks like he is waking up after stun. Ever played Guilty Gear? You can wake up in the air with some invincibility. I doubt it who knows though.

Zauron · Oct 17, 2007

Kix said:
What is strange is that looks like he is waking up after stun. Ever played Guilty Gear? You can wake up in the air with some invincibility. I doubt it who knows though.

We've already deciphered this, its just Diddy's Side+B. Read the earlier parts of the thread where we figure this out.

Kix · Oct 17, 2007

Zauron said:
We've already deciphered this, its just Diddy's Side+B. Read the earlier parts of the thread where we figure this out.

Okay, yeah I remembered that move and thought it may be that after my post. Sorry about not reading first.

Mama · Oct 17, 2007

Zauron said:
That's not Wavelanding, its Wario landing and going into his dash. Look at other videos that show Wario's dash, he just runs like that.

Well Metaknight does the exact same thing around that time. Something that appears to be a waveland. I say that even if wavedashing is out it wont really affect the balance too much seeing as how many things will be different in this game. Play styles are bound to change anyway. However I think that wave landing using momentum (if for some reason directional air dodging is removed) may be possible.

Also keep in mind this is not Melee at all. Just because an animation or effect looks different does not mean its something completely new.

lukintosh · Oct 17, 2007

Can anyone provide a GIF of momentum air dodge? Thanks

Devastlian · Oct 17, 2007

This whole more-momentum-based air dodge thing reminds me of Zelda, Peach, and (to a lesser extent) Kirby and Jigglypuff's air dodges (ya know, gravity kicks in faster for theirs). Instead of hovering its more like a jump. This sort touch of realism on something rather unrealistic is kinda cool.

lexxil · Oct 17, 2007

OMG!

STUPID! Nintendo YOU SUCK!

Just call PC Chris, Ken and they will try the Game.
-.-"

The Ken will say something like "Feels like SSBM, just better" and Nintendo even has got some Advertising -.-"

RazeveX · Oct 17, 2007

Crispy4001 said:
Fast-Jump?

Woah, i heard everyone talk about this, and its not as great as they say.

My first thought (and still a valid possibility) is that ITS A FOOTSTOOL JUMP. Look at the jump animation, it looks....lanky...(lol thats a really bad way to describe it). I mean, you know, trampolineee, relaxed.

Also, it could be sonic lightly knocking samus up without enough lag to stop him from attacking, but it really doesnt look like theres any lag.

I just dont think it's a fast jump.

Edit: No matter what, i think we an confirm it is some kind of launch (most likely off sonic).

GaryCXJk · Oct 17, 2007

Either way, thank god for it being unnoticable, but in slow motion it looks kind of ugly.

Wyvern · Oct 17, 2007

Zauron said:
We've already deciphered this, its just Diddy's Side+B. Read the earlier parts of the thread where we figure this out.

The startup is definitely that of his side-B, but that still doesn't explain what the heck he's doing when he's spinning and blinking. He does the side-B about a dozen times in other videos and it's always a flying kick.

twitch · Oct 17, 2007

i was watching couple new smash clips, and i think i found something interesting!?

it looks for me like a tech, what do you guys think?

at 01:17 min

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ad-SnIBzkR8

ShortFuse · Oct 17, 2007

twitch said:
i was watching couple new smash clips, and i think i found something interesting!?
it looks for me like a tech, what do you guys think?

at 01:17 min

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ad-SnIBzkR8

wow, read the first post, the first sentence

and teching is confirmed

Aeramis · Oct 17, 2007

That MTV vid at 1:50 with diddy kong doesn't even come close to disconfirming anything at all about wavedashing... You need to wait till someone that knows what they're talking about test out the demo at E for All and tells you it isn't in before going all overboard saying your 100% it is gone...

Atlus8 · Oct 17, 2007

So far, my prediction about Air Dodging is right on the spot. However, we're still going to have to wait till Thursday. Sadly, I won't be going since I have stuff to do and housing is gonna be tough.

twitch · Oct 17, 2007

ShortFuse said:
wow, read the first post, the first sentence

and teching is confirmed

i know..

i just wanted to give you a ''real'' proof

, because i didnt't see any video of teching here..

ShortFuse · Oct 17, 2007

AeramisWolfLord said:
That MTV vid at 1:50 with diddy kong doesn't even come close to disconfirming anything at all about wavedashing... You need to wait till someone that knows what they're talking about test out the demo at E for All and tells you it isn't in before going all overboard saying your 100% it is gone...

suuuuuuuure it doesn't. why don't you read why it disconfirms it and maybe read the 20-something pages where we discuss the momentum air-dodge + its effects

LuLLo · Oct 17, 2007

Wavedashing deconfirmed, but more depth to aerial gameplay, YEAH
Also, I think that wavedashing is still part of the game, imagine jumping forward with Captain Falcon in Brawl, and when you almost hit the ground you airdodge...the momentum you have is diagonally to the ground, so it is a form of wavelanding, only less useable. Also, a little more proof, in every video we thought there was a wavedash, for example Wario on the Halberd, every character was in the air before doing the wavedash thing, like Wario, he had a momentum diagonally (and a bit more vertically) and the landed on he slope and slided to the left. Due to the slope and his airdodge he went into a waveland.

ShortFuse · Oct 17, 2007

LuLLo said:
Wavedashing deconfirmed, but more depth to aerial gameplay, YEAH
Also, I think that wavedashing is still part of the game, imagine jumping forward with Captain Falcon in Brawl, and when you almost hit the ground you airdodge...the momentum you have is diagonally to the ground, so it is a form of wavelanding, only less useable. Also, a little more proof, in every video we thought there was a wavedash, for example Wario on the Halberd, every character was in the air before doing the wavedash thing, like Wario, he had a momentum diagonally (and a bit more vertically) and the landed on he slope and slided to the left. Due to the slope and his airdodge he went into a waveland.

wavedashing is disconfirmed but wavelanding isn't. by definition, wavedashing is started when you're standing. to waveland you need something to push you. air-dodge can't do it anybody but other things might (for example, mario's bAir)

Atlus8 said:
In this second vid I think we get to see Sonic's Air Dodge and it seems like the same thing as with Mario's Air Dodge. Look at Sonic at 1:23 . . . he looks like he is Air Dodging through the jump like Mario. In Melee, the Air Dodge can be done in any directional instantly. Meanwhile the Air Dodge seems to be based on the motion of your charcter in Brawl.

http://www.gamespot.com/video/92851...os-brawl-nintendo-media-summit-2007-interview

There's your other momentum airdodge confirmation though nowhere as strong as the diddy one (since that was a human DI'ing). sorry Atlus8, I didn't check this one out till now

Emblem Lord · Oct 17, 2007

I refuse to believe anything about wavedashing until our people go down there on the 18th.

The rest of the guys playing the game are newbs.

Plain and simple.

Aeramis · Oct 17, 2007

ShortFuse said:
suuuuuuuure it doesn't. why don't you read why it disconfirms it and maybe read the 20-something pages where we discuss the momentum air-dodge + its effects

I did read why you thought it disconfirms WDing and it still is not in anyway proven by anything in that video...
"Wavedash
Disconfirmed
See momentum air-dodge"
"Momentum Air-Dodge
Confirmed
Description: All the directional air-dodges are not really directional but are based on the previous momentum of the character on screen.

* In the MTV Demonstration Video Part 2 at 1:50. Look at Diddy Kong. He's DI'ing to the right. This means he's pressing right on the control stick. Then he dodges, but he goes in the same momentum as he always was, there is no air-dodge push to the right. Since there is no increase in speed from his dodge, this will make wavedashing impossible, since there would be no "push" which is necessary for the character to slide across the ground.
* In the MTV Demonstration Video Part 1 at 2:01 Link does a downward airdodge. Look at the player's hands. He presses down to make Link dodge down. It could be the case that it was just a force of habit of his and it press down did nothing."

Ummm, yeah the whole "no push" thing for the air dodge makes the WD "impossible" to do is not proven by any of what has been seen so far...

The "Look at the player's hands. He presses down to make Link dodge down. It could be the case that it was just a force of habit of his and it press down did nothing." doesn't mean that you can't. He may not have had it timed right or angeled right or even hit the right buttons as far as we really know to prove anything. Same goes for the "no push" theory.

I understand your trying to get as much as you can out of these videos, which is fine and danny, but your reaching for a disconfirm that is just not there... Like I said, in NO way does that video disconfirm wavedashing to not be in Brawl.

"I refuse to believe anything about wavedashing until our people go down there on the 18th.

The rest of the guys playing the game are newbs.

Plain and simple." QFT WIN

ShortFuse · Oct 17, 2007

The point is, he was DI'ing to the right. It he was falling straight, i'd have no argument. if he's pushing right. there should be a directional dodge to the right. in order for him to dodge down and to the right, he's had to move down and right which would at least make him fall faster but there's no change in speed. in other words, you press dodge and character goes invincible, it doesn't affect your speed. check out the sonic air-dodge (posted above)

you'll get your confirmation from E for All

DJC, Waveland and MetaKnight's WaveDash added to the first post

Zauron · Oct 17, 2007

Wyvern said:
The startup is definitely that of his side-B, but that still doesn't explain what the heck he's doing when he's spinning and blinking. He does the side-B about a dozen times in other videos and it's always a flying kick.

That's because this is one of the few times the button-mashing n00b lets the side-B play out normally. The backflip is a normal side-B. The other times, he cancelled it into an FAir. You can see this because that exact same kick animation plays other times when he does an FAir without doing the side-B first. The guy was just holding a direction and mashing both buttons, so it did his side-B but then immediately cancelled into the FAir from holding forward and pushing the other attack button. It seems the side-B only has a few frames required (likely the frames in which Diddy can grab his opponent, like the beginning frames of C. Falcon's Up+B) before it can be treated as a normal jump and the animation cancelled into a normal attack.

AeramisWolfLord said:
I did read why you thought it disconfirms WDing and it still is not in anyway proven by anything in that video...
"Wavedash
Disconfirmed
See momentum air-dodge"
"Momentum Air-Dodge
Confirmed
Description: All the directional air-dodges are not really directional but are based on the previous momentum of the character on screen.

* In the MTV Demonstration Video Part 2 at 1:50. Look at Diddy Kong. He's DI'ing to the right. This means he's pressing right on the control stick. Then he dodges, but he goes in the same momentum as he always was, there is no air-dodge push to the right. Since there is no increase in speed from his dodge, this will make wavedashing impossible, since there would be no "push" which is necessary for the character to slide across the ground.
* In the MTV Demonstration Video Part 1 at 2:01 Link does a downward airdodge. Look at the player's hands. He presses down to make Link dodge down. It could be the case that it was just a force of habit of his and it press down did nothing."

Ummm, yeah the whole "no push" thing for the air dodge makes the WD "impossible" to do is not proven by any of what has been seen so far...

The "Look at the player's hands. He presses down to make Link dodge down. It could be the case that it was just a force of habit of his and it press down did nothing." doesn't mean that you can't. He may not have had it timed right or angeled right or even hit the right buttons as far as we really know to prove anything. Same goes for the "no push" theory.

I understand your trying to get as much as you can out of these videos, which is fine and danny, but your reaching for a disconfirm that is just not there... Like I said, in NO way does that video disconfirm wavedashing to not be in Brawl.

"I refuse to believe anything about wavedashing until our people go down there on the 18th.

The rest of the guys playing the game are newbs.

Plain and simple." QFT WIN

If you don't understand why this deconfirms Wavedashing, you clearly do not understand how the physics in Smash work. I'm sorry, we can't help you. Just go on believing what you will, the rest of the Smashers will confirm this in a couple days anyway. Just think of this as advance warning so you can get past the denial stage when the confirmation you'll accept comes along.

Teben · Oct 17, 2007

I kind of wouldn't mind seeing wavedashing hit the bricks.

Less click-clickity-click-clickity-click-clickity-click!!

I enjoy fighters when there's less awkward, unintentionally designed stuff. Sometimes certain things are cool, but sometimes it gets a little annoying too. Kinda why I'd rather play a solid game of SF 3:s to MvC2.

Ban Heim · Oct 17, 2007

Teben said:
I kind of wouldn't mind seeing wavedashing hit the bricks.

Less click-clickity-click-clickity-click-clickity-click!!

I don't see why people even consider this a bad thing unless they're playing with the sound off and not speaking to each other.

I'm still going to do it whenever I play someone who's annoyed by it.

raphtmarqui · Oct 17, 2007

I'll wait until the 18th before I believe anything is deconfirmed.

Tank McCannon · Oct 17, 2007

After reading many posts and watching many videos, I'm gonna have to say that I'm pretty sure Wavedashing is gone.

I've been a fan of wavedashing and was afraid to see it go, but I'm not as upset as I thought I might be. I would've been upset if they got rid of wavedashing just for the sake of getting rid of it. Like, having an animation similar to air dodging into a wall, only into the floor instead of sliding. But they're completely changing air dodging as to improve the aerial combat of Smash Bros. and I couldn't be more excited.

Yeah, I guess I'll miss wavedashing a bit at first, but I'll adapt just like I did when going from 64 to Melee. Besides, it's not like Melee is going anywhere. But I firmly believe that with these new possibilities that we'll have with aerial combat and having to think more about our spacing with the lack of wavedashing, everyone's game is going to improve greatly.

Anomilus · Oct 17, 2007

StarshipGroove said:
About Yoshi's special double roll, if you remember the second trailer, Snake rolls while he's running and goes into crawling position. It seems that Yoshi did the same in the video, but stopped afterwards, seemingly rolling out of his crawling state.

AGGHH why do I always post at the end of the page?!?! noone will read this now!!

I read it, and it completely makes sense! After al, when Yoshi does the first "tripping roll", he ends it by sitting down, and not standing up. Afterwards he THEN enters another roll.

Seriously though, people really skip over posts at the end of a page? I don't... I am suprised that not only did nobody respond to this post, but all of the Yoshi talk died off after this post...

Zauron · Oct 17, 2007

Okay, so we solved the Wavedashing and Directional Dodge mysteries, which exploded into discussions on nothing but that. But, I've become bored with the back and forth or whether or not the evidence proves it and why Wavedashing should or should not be in the game and so on. Since there's other threads for that (which I'm going to stop visiting as they are pretty pointless now), lets get this thread back on track, shall we?

I enjoyed helping to solve mysteries of new, changed, and removed techniques in this thread. Is there anything else unsolved that we may be able to figure out through careful scrutiny of the evidence we have? I still haven't seen an answer to the mystery of the weird Yoshi trip/roll thing (besides that it likely has something to do with the Crawl mechanic), but I don't think we're going to get anything more on that without new info or videos. Anything else people have seen that they are wondering about that could be a change from Melee, confirmation of something we've not yet seen that was in Melee, or a possible new technique for Brawl?

TheBuzzSaw · Oct 17, 2007

I'm confused. I missed the millions of pages of discussion/debating, so can someone fill me in? What evidence is there that air dodges have to be with the current momentum? Every player in the demo thus far has sucked royally at smash. One guy didn't even know you could catch items in the air with Z in Melee. How do we know that the players just aren't doing it right?

List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Obsessed

Smash Apprentice

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Rookie

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

The Legendary Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Apprentice

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Young Link Extraordinaire

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