Who Doc Counters

[Dr.M@rio]

Maybe a Post on this already but i was curious who he counters?

[WeedLuigi]

Wow wid tha cape I'm thinking Ganon, Falcon, Fox, Falco...and not sure about these or other characters.

[Bob Money]

i wouldnt say doc counters anyon but he does do very well vs falco imo out of the cast weed luigi gave.
falcos lasers are very nullifed by doc, easy edgeguard.

[Travesty]

He doesn't counter but does quite well against shiek and the space animals. He doesn't counter Falcon, if anything Falcon counters him.

[Gea]

Not Falcon. He does well against Ganon, Shiek, Fox, Falco and doesn't have too many horrible matchups either. Jiggs, Marth, Peach, Link, and Falcon are as bad as it ever gets with Doc. The rest are either even or too close to be really a factor of the outcome of the match.

[Cyphus]

Falco prolly. Thats about it.

[maelstrom218]

Just curious Gea: why do you consider CF a bad matchup for Doc? Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons, but I'm obviously missing something--Doc can be chaingrabbed w/d-throw (sort of), he's floaty enough to be nailed by knees, he's very easily knocked off the stage by shffl'd u-airs (and subsequently edgeguarded)--but that's the only disadvantages that I can come up with.

It just doesn't sound as awful as Samus CC'ing everything into d-smash combined w/her obscene range, or Peach's ridiculous aerial arsenal and turnip setups.

I know that Mario and CF seems to be less of a skewed matchup; perhaps it's b/c of his u-tilt that has a much easier time locking CF into combos?

Just wondering.

[mood4food77]

sheik, fox, falco, samus, and luigi are probably the matches in his favor (he probably only truly counters luigi)

ganon and falcon are i think 2 of, if noth, his hardest fights

[stuntcuum3571]

how does Doc counter Luigi???? seems like all he has in his favor are pills

[Gea]

He doesn't counter Luigi. And Falcon is a bad matchup (not a counter) because his speed knocks out alot of his pillgame. Doc can't keep Falcon as much in a combo as Mario can, and getting hit out by a knee requires some quick DI up or Doc will never make it back. The kills are almost straight horizontal. Doc just dies.

Doc can still do some nasty stuff to Falcon... But he can't keep a pressure game on him as well as Falcon can on Doc.

As for Samus, its pretty even against Doc. She is alot slower and her projectile game gets cancelled out by a careful Doc. So she is forced to approach or stall and try to respace her projectiles. She is a slow drifter in the air which makes her a pretty good target for fairs, and that means killing off the top at reasonable %s. Caping her screw sets up for an fsmash, and bairs can rack up decent damage if she comes in too high. This match can go either way because of her legs... but its really not too bad for Doc.

[mood4food77]

luigi is almost completely countered by the cape, luigi can go in, and then a cape, one of the few match-ups where doc can completely beat out a character with the cape. doc can also kill luigi over the top at low %s. the pill can ruin luigi's approach, doc can easily edge gaurd luigi, one cape for luigi and he's just about done, luigi may have air game, but that's about it, luigi's fireballs suck (admit it, they are the worst projectile in the game), luigi can't do much against a doc

[Gea]

Uhh you're wrong. Its even. You can't win with the cape alone you know, especially if he comes in high. Luigi can do a 60ish combo on Doc no sweat. His cyclone, dash attack, tilts, etc all cancel pills. Fair a Luigi often? Slap is much quicker. Slap and dair send Doc out far horizontally, and Luigi's bairs really can hurt Doc's recovery attempts. His launcher is just as fast as Doc's downsmash, and he has Doc beat out on range.

However, Doc does have the cape edgeguard, a more solid ground game, a good projectile, a wicked sex kick to break combos, and a better defensive game.

Don't fool yourself though, if the Luigi can handle pills he can get close enough to launch. At low %s multiple utilts can lead to a uair, sex kick then a slap/dair. Tell me that isn't a painful amount of % on Doc? Better not try to ledgehop. Get slapped out of it and Doc is dead. Did I mention coming in high gets you baired repeatedly?

I'm not really sure how to explain Doc's game in this one, because its really just play defense with strong attacks and edgeguarding mixed in. Doc can't combo Luigi worth crap and it really shows. But Doc can play his projectile and work in hits to even it up.

The cape isn't a cure all solution against a good Luigi. Might wanna rethink that one.

[Cyphus]

personally, just w/ my experience, i don't see luigi diong that well against doc.

just looking at eye for eye...
edgeguarding.
Doc edgeguards the crap outta Lu. His UpB is Very predictable as well as timing the ForwardB(unless a lucky misfire, which albeit...difficult, is still possible)his b.airs are also brutal to lu, who can't really make up that lost distance.
Luigi, hand down, is a crappy edgeguarder when compared to most. Cuz he's floaty and his recovery is slow and punishable he can't pursue targets that he's knocked off w/out putting himself in extreme risk. And his B.airs aren't as well trajecting as doc, since his can be DIed alot more upwards possibly granting more opportunities to recover if timed in between his attacks. And even if he's edgehogging, doc can stall a little. When doc is edgehoggin he doesn't have to stall..he can just fall w/ a b.air guaranteeing death. Luigi falls w/ a D.air/F.air, but its just a tad slower.

Defensivewise...
doc wins here too. Lu can go through pills well enough, like Gea said, but the fact its a pressure tool that invites mistakes is something strategically important that lu can't incoporate. Luigi is forced to be an offensive beast, only able to mix up his WDs, feints, ect, and that can lead to predictabiliy.

Combowise, i think Lu has a slight advantage. Doc can still. d.throw, uptilt and go for an air attack, but he won't get more than 1 or 2 unless he's lucky. Lu can d.smsash uptilt, shuffle upair, WD-pursuit. He also has an easier time punishing techs, since he can WD across the level into grabs while doc rolls. he's got better reach w/ his f.tilt, but outside that he doesn't have much reaching moves that can be spammed, since doc just ouspeeds him in the air.

i dunno..i mean...its deffinately not a massacre like chainthrowing sheik to pikachu, but i still think doc has a clear advantage over lu. I'd think Lu would have an easier time vs. Capt or Peach.

[Gea]

Cyphus, Luigi rapes Doc all over the place in the air. His bair is longer than Docs, his sex leads into combos on Doc, dair and fair knock Doc far away in the worst sense for Doc and Uair is pretty much matched. Unless you actually mean driftspeed. By which case the Luigi shouldn't be floating around. He should he attempting to launch into a combo, wavelanding aerials, or getting a finisher.

Lui has a HUGE advantage combo wise. Doc was never good at comboing floaties, he can't follow them. Luigi doesn't need the lack of vertical in his bairs against Doc. Distance does it. After Doc doesn't have his second jump and he gets baired its pretty much over for Doc. Doc still has the advantage here, but a good Luigi doesn't make it easy for Doc.

Hanging on the edge against a Luigi is dangerous as hell for Doc. A misfire means a stagespike. Its MUCH safer and MUCH better to stay on the stage, jump out for bairs, and cape the up + b. But then again, I play with "Mr. Misfire", don't I?

Cyphus, I don't think you realize how bad Luigi CAN hurt Doc. All it takes is the launch which will happen eventually.

[that 1 guy]

I really don't understand why Doc isn't considered a counter for captain falcon and ganon. They can both be caped very easily and can be totally destroyed by the back airs. I am not super awesome with doc, but it appears to me that his edgeguard destroys those two.

[Travesty]

CF beats Doc mainly because he's so **** fast. Pills aren't useless but they don't force CF to attack like they do for most other chars. CF can just dance around them. CF's nair has got huge range and good combobility. One good combo into a finishing knee and Doc's as good as dead because his recovery is so pitiful.

I think mainly, Doc players are used to keeping the pressure on others with pills and shffl's but this time the pressure is on them. CF can turn Doc's game completely upside down.

I'm making it sound like CF rapes Doc, he doesn't, Doc can combo and edgeguard him easily but it's definitely CF's match.

A few other points, M4F said Ganon counters Doc and that's a negative. Ganon's too slow and too easily combo'd. Almost all of his quick moves can be shield grabbed and when Doc gets a grab on Ganon, Ganon's gonna hurt for a while.

Someone mentioned using bairs on a recovering CF. It's possible but dangerous. CF is one of the hardest chars to bair simply because you don't want to get caught in that B^ of his. Of course, cape still works well.

[Cyphus]

well, up into last month, before he moved to Alabama, my friend played a good luigi.
what i meant by speed was shuffling around in the air. Luigi has to SH attack twice or WD the landing. Which really isn't any worse, i'd argue about the same, but cuz he's floaty, even his SH can leave him open. Say he SH F.airs me, and i shield. I can UpB out my shield to punish before he can sex the landing. He doesn't have the convenience of a quick SH to FF which usually just more reliable.

Even if luigi combos doc better than doc combos lu, i really don't think its anything to brag about. Nobody really combos Doc that well. Nobody really combos Luigi that well. At his best combos on doc...what is Luigi going to end it w/? A forward or D.Air?
Luigi doesn't have ANY horizontally-trajectoring finish moves.
Thats how you beat doc. If lu doesn't KO doc w/ the attack, and doc DI's it upwards..he's basically guaranteed his return w/ falling pill, stalling, etc..since lu can't pursue off the level. His edgeguarding sux, imo. Not saying he can't edgeguard..but compared to most characters...he's REALLY limited.
Lu combos Capt and even peach better, imo. Plus against capt, he can go into a f.air/f.smash for the KO. Against peach, he might sneak in a lucky upsmash, or d.smash at high damage. Against doc...he just doesn't have any killer combo into finisher on his weight.
Then again, neither does doc on lu, minus d.throw to f.air, but his d.smash suffices well enough into an edgeguard. not trying to bash lu all here, cuz i like the guy, and i know this thread is about doc.

Doc counters Roy, imo.

roy's a fastfalling light weight w/ bad recovery. All that means to doc is combos into d.smash then edgehog. He can d.throw f.smash him, and upthrow juggle really well. Doc doesn't have that hard of a time getting in past the blade since it ain't like marf.

possibly ganon. chainthrows easily, combos easy, pills work decent, and edgeguarding rape. ganon has better reach and power, so its just a matter of playing defensive...but going offensive before he gets close, cuz the main reasons a ganon will beat doc is because doc thinks he can pillspam and backthrow. you also have to outspeed him head on. B.air a couple times bullying him off the level.

i'm just putting the generalaties obviously..i'm too tired to post all that i think.
IMO, anyway..
Doc > Ganon, Falco, Roy, Luigi(ignoring the obvious things like Doc > Pichu)
Doc < Marth, Jigs, Link, Samus

[Player00]

I think Doc v. Falcon is pretty even. It is not as easy to combo Doc as some of you are making it seem like. Sure his weight is makes him really easy to combo for Falcon, but his size makes things interesting. It is so hard to pull off both hits of a NAir on Doc. Falcon isn't exactly the most accurate of characters in the game, so sometimes it is hard to hit Doc just the way you want to. Doc has crazy good edge guard against Falcon too, so that evens it up.

[Gea]

Cyphus, you lost all credibility when you said Luigi has no horizontal kill moves, especially on Doc.

[TobiasXK]

Hmmm....

People need to stop ignoring lui'nado as a fairly viable recovery and defensive technique in the air. With a second jump and 'nado still available, Lui can arc away from a wall of b-airs and make it back. Also, if he nados early on he can just recover high. And 'nado'll stall to ridiculous degrees, too, if need be.

And, while Luigi's edgeguard options are limited because you don't ever want to have to missile after an edgeguard attempt, if you've got the time to edgehog and drop BobMoney bairs, it can very much work. They lack the kick of Doc's, as well as the trajectory, but that just makes them worse in general. Doc isn't misfiring with super sheet and magically making it back. He can get bear'd repeatedly and it'll definitely kill.

Still, I tip it in Doc's favor slightly, but stage is also fairly important in that matchup, so I like to call it closer to even in the end than anything else.

Also, chop and dair are good enough for horizontal kills. Sure they arc and with good DI, you can avoid the blastline pretty **** easily. You're still Dr. Mario though.

And the cape isn't the endall edgeguard, peeps.

[WeedLuigi]

And the cape isn't the endall edgeguard, peeps.
Thank u ****ing JESUS...even after I get caped after a rocket...I can LC, and/or second jump to return wid/widout my up b....doc cant do this pass 90% damage...furthermore I can choose to stall or attack(up,down,foward,neutral aerials) after my LC or second jump, or attack wid my LC, I have tha option of doing uncharged/misfired rockets after my LC or second jump...so much God **** options...I can choose to grab tha end of tha stage or return ''high'' depending on if tha guys distance from me or if (he/she jumped off tha stage to try and attack me and return).Who has these options in battle, most characters cannot stall upon returning to tha stage...or they die...or try to attack on their way back to tha stage...especially at high percentages :laugh: !!!

[Gea]

Actually they are referring that it is impossible for a Luigi to sweetspot with his up + B against a Doc with good timing.

Point being that doesn't determine the match by far, because most of the match is not having a chance to edgeguard. It is a factor, yes.

[WeedLuigi]

Who says I need to upB to make it back to tha stage in tha first stage!!!
An LC can more than compensate for tha upb.

[DarkShadow09]

He conters Fox and Falco pritty well.

[ThatGuy]

Alright, I'll speak from past experience here since I play Doc and Ganon, and I used to go with CF.

First of all, I would have to say Luigi is actually good against Doc, with his range and nearly equal priority. Many a time I've used Dsmash too far away, or Bair, and get hit by the same move at the same distance. Maybe it was because the Luigi was better than me, but I had a hard time breaking Luigi up. I need more matchups to confirm it, but I'm siding with Gea.

I also have to say that Captain Falcon can own Doc Horribly! I mean, Doc gets combo'd senseless by CF, no matter how good your DI and CCing is. You can't cape stomps. You get chain grabbed into easy knees at opportune times. Doc can get edgehogged easily with his predictable and ineffective recovery. Doc has a cape edgeguard, or Bair edgeguard, but you have to be able to knock him off the edge first, and with him comboing you to oblivion, it can be difficult to pull off.

Ganon I would also have to say beats up Doc. I mean, yes the cape is good, but Ganon's wizard's foot travels slower and shorter, and can be used very effectively, twice or maybe even 3 times on recovery, and you can reverse upB on the stage, or simply go over the cape and maybe fake them out and ledgedrop, or air dodge. Ganon has incredible power, and he is NOT slow if used properly. Practically every move is a kill move. The only move Doc has that can outrange Ganon's Ftilts is the pill =P. Jabs after L cancels are simply ownage. The upside for Doc is that he has move time to react to a down B or Over B, but the OverB Shieled cannot be shieldgrabbed, and down B can go past Doc, unless shieldgrabbed like a master. You can Cape it, but he might travel too far to get hit, although it is a nice tactic. Ganondorf edgehogs Doc VERY EASILY because of his infinite edgehog! Doc simply cannot go through that because with Ganon invincible, he can simply hang on, or reverse Uair, or thunder drop your arse. Hell, he can wizard foot spike going towards the stage and quite possibly out-prioritize or collide your UpB if lucky.

I would have to say Doc can wreak terror on Marth, Fox, and Falco, and his cape is a very effective edgeguard and seldom fails if used properly. Heck, it can be abused like crazy, and it actually pays off sometimes when fighting them, since it racks up damage, sometimes sets them up for good smackdown opportunities, and REALLY frustrates the heck out of people who don't know how to (or simply can't, because of its supposed domination) counter the cape.

[Cyphus]

u act as if its easier to cape Fox's recovery than Ganons. I hope thats just coincidence from your wording. Cuz between illusion recovering to the edge (or over it), reflector stalling, UpBing at distance upward or towards the level, downward into the edge, or below the level, and changing to angle to travel upward towards the edge at different speeds to throw off cape timing....
fox has alot easier time avoid edgeguards than Ganon's inevitable UpB. Wizards footing doesn't aid his ledge approach any...and about reverse UpBing. Its a good point. It prolly would throw off anyone that experienced it much, but just me, personally, i've had it happen enough to have an eye for it. but its a very liable point, indeed.

Besides...No matter how fast you speed up Ganon, he's still not as fast as Doc fully sped up. playing defensive against Ganon is what gets you killed. It allows him opportunities to abuse his range. Just be offensive against him, focus on shuffling through him, and beat him to the punch. doc can chain throw him at 0% w/ upthrow twice, and chain d.throw very early for a while, too. As long as you stay on his *** and don't let him regain control of the fight, its really not that bad. I learned this the hard way, from having used to think pillspam was my best option. When in fact, his reach can penetrate and attack you through it at convenient times causing shamefully low damage deaths. But the same be said for Ganon if he eats a d.throw to b.air-waveshuffle-chain. So yea..Ganon used to give me trouble, but now i find him pretty easy.

but i do deffinatley know where ur coming from. u can't just hope to shield grab him, cuz in one aerial into jab, ur shield is useless. and then 2 f.airs and its over.

[Player00]

I also have to say that Captain Falcon can own Doc Horribly!

He can, but he probably won't. I think this match is very even. I see what you are saying though, but there are a lot more things Doc can do to Falcon that you didn't mention.

I would have to say Doc can wreak terror on Marth

:laugh:, Not bloody likely.

[supermariopro101]

Luigi beats doc in every way possible except versatility which ,don't get me wrong, can play a big role in a game but most likely won't. Luigi's wavedash is necessary as he has poor as hort hop.

As for space animals, yes doc's chain throw so kicks the crap out of them.

Doc raping Marth!!! ummm......... Nooo! Entirely opposite because of marths range any doc player goes through a lot of **** trying to get inside his game. Of course its a different story once he's out trying to recover.

Captain Falcon's knee is god enough to frustrate evn the best doc player with his quick speed. However, doc's got more options than CF.

I hold a grudge against Ganondorf so I'm going to go with Doc on this one. Seeing that almost all Ganondorf's moves can kill Doc you may think he doesn't have a chance. But Doc's got something that all Gannondorf player fear(the bair) need I say more.

Anyways, I've had my say in this. If you excuse me I got an appointment with the Doc for a case of the common cold. :laugh:

[ThatGuy]

I guess I'll try to elaborate a bit:

Captain Falcon OWNS Doc like a pimp owns his hoes. Once Falcon gets through the pills, it's pure carnage. Doc may have more options, but they aren't necessarily better. I would have to believe that Doc is one of Falcon's most comboable opponents, with the ideal weight and floatiness to get a nice combo from 0-KO quickly.

B-air edgeguard on Ganondorf? Works wonders, if it's perfect. Not only can UpB beat up Doc, but sometimes, if the player gets creative, goes for a mini suicide trip on Doc, with a Wizard's foot spike (although I don't think that option opens up often, nor do many Gdorfs out there go for it, preferring to try and keep a stock. I personally think Edgehog is the best edgeguard =/). I just think that Ganondorf's power and range simply overwhelms Doc.

Wreak terror on Marth...Hm, I might have gone a bit overboard, I agree (Actually, maybe a bit more than "a bit overboard"=P). But Doc can cape spam like a mofo, and Marth has such inviting range on the sword, that damage racks up quite nicely. It's landing the blow to kill that can be difficult, since many of Marth's attacks are (or lead up to) killers. Careful planning and cautious cape spamming can go a long way...(cape= the uber mindgame on angry Marth players).

Cape as edgeguard? Don't get me wrong, I think Ganon is much easier to edgeguard than Fox or Falco (even with some minor difficulties), but I'm also saying that Doc has an easier time overall against the space balls than against the big scary guy (Thus, counterpicking). The Space animals do have a fair amount of options, (more than GDorf!) like the ones listed above, but they can be prevented with a bit of ledgehogging followed by edgehopped caping or bairs...or uairs =P (Works on Gdorf too). They way you worded the statement "You're saying Ganondorf is tougher to cape than Fox?" I never said or implied that, but just simply stating that Gdorf can be tutilized efficiently to get around the cape. There are multitudes of things Doc can do to Gdorf, but if you don't get creative, it's bye-bye to the little man in white (or pink).

[maelstrom218]

I guess I'll try to elaborate a bit:

Wreak terror on Marth...Hm, I might have gone a bit overboard, I agree (Actually, maybe a bit more than "a bit overboard"=P). But Doc can cape spam like a mofo, and Marth has such inviting range on the sword, that damage racks up quite nicely. It's landing the blow to kill that can be difficult, since many of Marth's attacks are (or lead up to) killers. Careful planning and cautious cape spamming can go a long way...(cape= the uber mindgame on angry Marth players).

The word "Cape" and "spamming" should never, ever go together. Ever.

The problem w/using the Cape in a tourney level match is that it leaves you highly vulnerable. The huge duration and ending lag makes it impractical to use, b/c using the Cape is always about correctly anticipating (read: guess) what the opponent will do, since some attacks are better caped than others. . .and should you so guess incorrectly, the opponent will take advantage of your ending lag.

This is especially true against characters like Marth, whose range is so obscenely long that if you happen to be baited into using the Cape at an inopportune moment or somehow screw up the timing/spacing of it, he can reach you easily for a sweetspotted hit or nail a grab. . .and as you say, such hits will lead to combos, most of which lead to Marth's KO moves (f-smash, ANA, d-air).

Furthermore, the Cape doesn't really combo into anything. As satisfying as it is to see an opponent either trip up or get turned around and momentarily disoriented, the Cape's lag prevents you from properly exploiting that situation--especially if you happen to be on the ground, given that going against Marth in the air equates to suicide. Caping the hitbox (Marth's sword) doesn't damage him as far as I recall, so there's even less incentive to use the Cape in a vs. Marth matchup.

"Cape spamming" is quite possibly the worst thing you can do in a matchup against Marth, as the costs (high lag, inability to follow through) far outweigh the benefits (if they exist at all).

Besides, if you're going to be Caping people on the ground, Mario does a whole better job at that, given that his horizontal Cape range is almost double that of Doc's. Not that you'd ever go around Caping people arbitrarily.

Unless "the Cape" happens to be your namesake. But heck, even the Cape doesn't use the Cape.

[ThatGuy]

Wait, what? I thought Doc's cape was longer, I think you're mixing up your facts.

Also, if caping Marth's sword doesn't do damage, then my apologies for that, I always thought it did.

I know the ideal situation you want is to combo someone into their deaths, but does everything have to lead into a combo? I mean, let's say the cape actually did damage on Marth's sword. If you kept racking up damage with those capes, leading up to a KO, wouldn't that work as well as a combo? By my perspective, a combo isn't purely about hitting over and over in succession, nor does it have to be a maneuver that looks flashy. It just has to get the job done properly (although those flashy combo's are very sexy =D), hence, the "cape combo"!

I think you misinterpreted my use of the word "spamming". I'm not implying that you mash the B button while destroying the stick by smashing it sideways like some 11-year-old brothers do, but....

Oh geez, I just re-read what I wrote, and sorry, it does sound a lot like that's what I'm saying. Sorry 'bout that. What I'm trying to say is that the cape is -I find- a very useful tool that can be used often against Marth, as long as you have the presence of mind not to go overboard and get mindgamed into using it.

I'm like 90% sure that you mixed up the cape info, which is understandable. But, if caping Marth's sword doesn't rack up damage, then I'm sorry. Consider my argument on Marth null and void. But I stand by my other ones =P

[supermariopro101]

[QUOTE=ThatGuy]Wait, what? I thought Doc's cape was longer, I think you're mixing up your facts.

He means larger hitbox.

[QUOTE=ThatGuy]Also, if caping Marth's sword doesn't do damage, then my apologies for that, I always thought it did.

The sword is a disjointed hitbox meaning it can attack but can't be attacked.

[Quote=ThatGuy]I know the ideal situation you want is to combo someone into their deaths, but does everything have to lead into a combo? I mean, let's say the cape actually did damage on Marth's sword. If you kept racking up damage with those capes, leading up to a KO, wouldn't that work as well as a combo? By my perspective, a combo isn't purely about hitting over and over in succession, nor does it have to be a maneuver that looks flashy. It just has to get the job done properly (although those flashy combo's are very sexy =D), hence, the "cape combo"!

You won't be able to cape a good marth that much and I wouldn't try it at all.

I realize you didn't mean what you actually said in your post but i wouldn't cape marth period except on maybe recovery but even then, I bair works better.

[ThatGuy]

Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for the bad advice on Marth.

[Pwnu]

Afriend of mine, who i consider better, hasnt figured out to beat my Doc with his Ganon. He uses a lot of shffl'd fair and bairs but i play defensivley with pills. shieldgrabs and dsmashes.
Usually my bair kicks destroy his recovery and i can often just edgehog his up+b.
So, unless my friend just hasn't figured out the right tactic - i think doc is a pretty strong counter to Ganon.

[maelstrom218]

Doc's Cape has a larger hitbox vertically. It not only reaches in front of him, but extends a significant distance underneath him and above him, which is what makes it so formidable when it comes to edgeguarding sweetspotters.

Mario's Cape is different in that the hitbox neither extends above or below him. The hitbox only stretches out in front of him, but the distance in front of him is twice that of Doc's.

Therefore, Mario's Cape is superior to Doc's in terms of horizontal distance in front of you; Doc's Cape is superior to Mario's in terms of vertical distance (above and below you).

[Gea]

And Doc's is supposedly considered better because its much easier to cape recoveries with.

[yithkai]

cj has a crazy doc, caveman and i think ken does too.

watch CJ vs Azen in TG6(?) vid. sooo godly. dead tie at the end, and cj started 1 stock down.
doc vs marth btw.

doc owns all fast fallers (especially space animals) and not so much everyone else but still good.
mad awesome throw combos against space animals / shiek, throw to f smash or fair on many chars is np even with DI, can chain grab up and down, tilt / smash juggles, good wavedash, crazy sidestep, decent range on -100% ledge attack, high ledge hop, crazy edge guard, GREAT JAB

so yeah, just eveyrthing u need against fast fallers right there. D1 owned my doc as luigi and since his alts and my mains are about the same level luigi must counter doc, using correct logic, as we played serveral matches. that settles the artgument on page 1 and 2.

o yeah and dont look at overdose for counters. dont expect any of those combos to work in a match. keep them short and good unless fighting a total noob (aka where dashattack-dashattack-dashattack juggle to fsmash will work on fox)
down throw fsmash against shiek and link, and up throw fair against fast fallers is the only solid thing you can pull out of it 100% of the time.

k bye

[dr.neo]

Doc really is a good character I think i counters anyone who floats like samus. Also i think he counters ganon cuz i can juggle ganon all day. Just stuff like that i am tired of typing already.

[supermariopro101]

[QUOTE=yithkai]
o yeah and dont look at overdose for counters. dont expect any of those combos to work in a match. keep them short and good unless fighting a total noob (aka where dashattack-dashattack-dashattack juggle to fsmash will work on fox)
down throw fsmash against shiek and link, and up throw fair against fast fallers is the only solid thing you can pull out of it 100% of the time.

Whyt would you use the fsmash against link? That's a horrible manuever since link plays an outside game. Especially if he techs since doc would be wide open to eat an fsmash from link. It is not the only thing you can use 100 percent of the time. The dash attack should almost never be used. Chain throws are the key to space animals.

[maelstrom218]

Doc really is a good character I think i counters anyone who floats like samus. Also i think he counters ganon cuz i can juggle ganon all day. Just stuff like that i am tired of typing already.

As yithkai has already said, Doc (and Mario) do characteristically well against fast-fallers. The reason why, of course, is that they can lock fast-fallers into vicious vertical combos w/u-throw, u-tilt, u-smash, shffl'd u-airs, and there's really not that much that any fastfaller can do to get out of it, besides super-human DI, which only people w/the name of "Azen" and "Ken" have.

If nothing else, I'd say that both Doc and Mario actually do terribly against extremely floaty characters, b/c their standard combo routines are rendered less effective, which takes away a huge part of both Doc and Mario's game. If anything, they're combo-reliant characters (though Doc does have his Pill game and great finishers to fall back on), and not being able to combo floaties makes the match much, much worse for them.

There's a reason why Luigi, Samus, Jiggs and Peach aren't exactly wonderful matchups for Doc/Mario, and it's b/c both can't combo the aforementioned characters. Mario's primary vertical launcher--the u-tilt--is practically obselete since it'll knock them too high even at mid percents, forcing him to rely on d-throws and well-placed aerials. The same goes w/Doc--he can fall back on Pills and single, well-placed aerials, but he still loses a few of his combo options. The result is that combo ability for both characters drops, and you rely on aerials and much, much more on grabs--and Lui, Samus, Jiggs, and Peach all have the aerial priority and range that outmatches yours when it comes to an aerial matchup.

Loss of combo options means both Doc and Mario are being forced out of their element, which results in crappy matchups for both. They can't combo floaties b/c--well, b/c they float out of them. You do the math.

And being able to combo someone doesn't mean an insta-win. Ganon does fairly well against the Mario's, simply b/c he not only outranges them, but outpowers them and can practically out-edgeguard them as well. Combos against Ganon mean very little when a single f-air from him at 60% can hurt so very, very much.

And yithkai, I'm playing you at next Gauntlet. I keep on forgetting to go up against your Doc. . .I always spend my time losing to Steel Roo instead. >_>

Edit:
Whyt would you use the fsmash against link? That's a horrible manuever since link plays an outside game. Especially if he techs since doc would be wide open to eat an fsmash from link. It is not the only thing you can use 100 percent of the time. The dash attack should almost never be used. Chain throws are the key to space animals.

Nah, yithkai is just talking about using Doc's f-smash after a d-throw. . .and that's actually a viable "combo" option, given that you can correctly anticipate the opponent's DI and that the opponent is in a very specific % range. It works, and even if Link should techroll, the techroll takes much longer than Doc's recovery from the f-smash, so he should be safe. . .it's an acceptable risk, if risk at all.

Dash attack is. . .a bit odd, mostly b/c Doc is starved for vertical launchers. Gea once said that Doc lacks a single, decent vertical launcher, and this is the honest truth. U-tilt is situational, u-smash has startup lag, u/d-throw is dependent on whether or not you can grab. . .really, the only launchers that Doc has are u/d-throws and dash attack. It's b/c Doc is starved for vertical launchers that the dash attack looks so appealing. . .lagginess and all else aside, the dash attack does have great IASA frames, and the hitbox is ridiculously large, so it's certainly a viable option. It's a great vertical launcher. . .just very, very risky. It certainly has its place (hey, vert launchers are always a good thing), but ignoring it just b/c it's risky would be a mistake, methinks.