Ganondorf inbetween mario and doc.

[supermariopro101]

I know this is kind of late, but I haven't seen it anywhere in this topic. So, a couple of weeks maybe a month I noticed the new teir list. GANONDORF in between doc and mario. You have got to be kidding me. Mario and Doc are to close for a character, especially Ganondorf, to be in between them. What are they thinking. Anyone else agree/disagree.

[LAX]

It doesn't really matter. Tier list doesn't mean anything anyway.

[supermariopro101]

Well, basically the teir list means that if all the characters were perfect, than this would be the order, so yeah it kinda doe s matter.

[VgtPrncfllSyns]

It makes perfect sense, IMO, for reasons too many to list.

[supermariopro101]

And why do you think that? Ganondorf-very slow, so much lag on just about every move, poor recovery.

[Gea]

He also can kill alot quicker than Mario can, who has issues putting on the finishing blow. That is the biggest reason Mario is where he is. Lack of solid kill moves.

[supermariopro101]

Yes, but where mario lacks KO moves he makes up for with versatility. His fsmash has some priority being sweetspotted and can be corrected with a backwards wavedash to fsmash or better yet dsmash. I know that both of these moves do not have much knock back but ganondorf's recovery is so predictable you can just meteor smash him and he will probably get KO'd. Speed to me is greater than power and to me Ganondorf should not be in between mario and doc. Either in front or behind them but not between them, PERIOD.

[RTRM]

Yes, but where mario lacks KO moves he makes up for with versatility. His fsmash has some priority being sweetspotted and can be corrected with a backwards wavedash to fsmash or better yet dsmash. I know that both of these moves do not have much knock back but ganondorf's recovery is so predictable you can just meteor smash him and he will probably get KO'd. Speed to me is greater than power and to me Ganondorf should not be in between mario and doc. Either in front or behind them but not between them, PERIOD.


NOT period. This is still up for discussion. Doc generally has a couple of better matchups due to his differences with Mario, like Better Edguarding and Pill Rush. Ganon has such an easy time K.Oing people, which is a huge weakness for Mario. If you watch some good/pro Ganons move around, the L-cancelling and wavedashing make Ganon pretty swift to scoot around combined with that huge power he has. compare that to Mario's versitility with comboing and edgeguarding, to me, Ganon wins by a hair. Don't get me wrong, I'm a mario player and I love him to death, but ganon has an edge. Don't let the fact that Mario can really own a ganon 1v1 with combos and ridiculoulsy simple edguarding cloud your judgement of which character deserves a higher spot on the teir list. Plus, people who know more about the game and the matchups made the list, so take their word for it.

Also, I was just wondering when/if theyre gonna make a new list. Kinda random, but just wondering.

[Cyphus]

bleh...theres no real reason why this happened.
in reality...doc got hyped up above mario for 2 reasons.
There are famous doc players, and Captain Jack came around right before hte voting, and showed off his doc beating Azen's sheik. and two...no mario had gotten any high place in a major tourney in a while.
and i can be part blamed for this too..in that when this voting went on, I myself am guilty of also putting Ganon in between them.
time has passed though...
imo, mario is just as good as doc. (i'd tier them in a level such: Doc, Mario, Ganon, etc.) w/out going into a full list of mine :P

[maelstrom218]

*shrugs*

It's an interesting question that you bring up (interesting to me, anyways) b/c it looks like that Mario is being shafted. I mean, first, Mario is stuck under Doc, and then shoved under Ganon.

But when you really think about it, the decision makes sense. I've picked up Ganon recently, and ****, he's a beast. As RTRM said, once you add in proper wavedashing, shffl'ing, and landdashing (especially on platforms) Ganon becomes frighteningly mobile. He has insane range as well--every time I play against Ganon w/Mario nowadays, I'm basically treating him like Marth; I'm trying to stay outside f-air/shffl'd u-air range and waiting for any lag that he has to slip inside, and get a grab. Ganon also has crazy edgeguarding w/his reverse u-air; that one attack not only works well as a standard keep away move (i.e. anti-WoP as seen in Triforce of Power) but it ruins sweetspotters and can make proper recovery very difficult. Add to that a chaingrab w/d-throw that works on quite a few characters, a great jab, and lots of KO power, and you have a fairly decent character.

Really, the only thing that makes Ganon bad is his predictable recovery and that he's combo'd far too easily. These 2 factors result in very very skewed matchups against the Top/Upper tiered characters as the majority of them have lots of combo options/pressure options/early kill options. Fox, Sheik, Flaco, CF are all practically counter matchups; and though Marth, Peach and Samus are comparatively easier, they certainly aren't in his favor.

When you compare the aforementioned advantages that Ganon has to what Mario has, it sounds a bit dubious. I mean, sure, Mario has "versatility," but what does that really mean? Lots of unexpected tricks and various options up his sleeves. . .essentially, it means many ways of opening up opportunities to get his standard bread and butter combos in (shffl'd u-airs, grab setups into u-tilt, etc.).

Alright, so Mario has some random arcane tricks, decent combo options, and on top of that, very good edgeguarding. . .how does that compare to Ganon's mobility, range, edgeguarding, and KO power?

Short answer: it really doesn't. The bottom line of Smash is about getting KOs, and Ganon has the power and the edgeguarding to accomplish the task. Mario, on the other hand, can't really finish combos w/the same oomph that Luigi, Sheik, or CF can. Sorry HAL, but having to combo into an unreliable up-angled f-smash just isn't going to cut it. It depends far too much on opponent % and DI to be as reliable as, say, Flaco's drillshine pillaring. . .it's just very, very frustrating when d-smash, u-smash and sex kick simply won't kill, and you can't fit in a proper f-smash. Grrr.

There is, of course, the obvious issue that Ganon suffers from a predictable recovery and ease-of-being combo'd while Mario (for the most part) does not. And Mario, though lacking KO power, certainly has the ability to combo to kingdom come (especially fastfallers)--he simply lacks the ability to finish them off. Finally, Mario has a major advantage over Ganon, which is that he has much, much better matchups in the Top/Upper tiers. Sheik, Fox, Marth, Flaco, CF are all winnable matches even if Peach and Samus are more difficult to beat.

In the end though, Mario's lack of KO power screws him over severely, and the added lack of range doesn't help either. . .heck, it was these two problems that led me to pick up Ganon as a back up character in the first place. If anything, I think that Ganon = Mario. . .b/c they're equally effective, just in contrasting areas--i.e. Mario is decent where Ganon is not (massive damage accumulating combos), and Ganon is decent where Mario is not (massive 1-hit moves w/huge KO power, and range to boot).

If I had to choose which was better though (read: personal preference >_>) I'd go w/Mario. . .only b/c he tends to have better matchups in the Top/Upper tiers, and he doesn't get combo'd to bloody hell the way Ganon does (like Ganon vs. Flaco on FD). That, and Mario is hawt.

[quak]

Gannon also has amazing hit boxes, especially with his aerials, which is another reason why he's above mario. And doc is just a better match up against gannon than mario would be because of ko power, weight and fall speed.

Plus gannon has a sword!!!! :)

[unknown522]

Gannon also has amazing hit boxes, especially with his aerials, which is another reason why he's above mario. And doc is just a better match up against gannon than mario would be because of ko power, weight and fall speed.

Plus gannon has a sword!!!! :)
^ u said it man!!

[Uncle Meat]

Well, basically the teir list means that if all the characters were perfect, than this would be the order, so yeah it kinda doe s matter.

That isn't true. Then Fox would be top. Tiers are based on speed, power, combo ability, falling speed, approach, counters and more.

Tiers don't effect how good a character is, how good a character is effects tiers.

[Blammo!]

I'm going to have to agree with the tier list on this one. Gannons massive KO potential is just too much to ignore. Plus he has a very intimidating presence when you're fighting him.

[GhostfaceKillaOG]

Doc Mario > Gannon



:)

[RTRM]

Doc Mario > Gannon



:)


That has to be the most obvious observation I have ever seen. That's pretty aparrant...

[Mud Buddha]

What? No it isn't.

[supermariopro101]

It is pointless to argue over an opinionated answer. Popular belief does state that indeed Doc is better than Gannondorf for numerous reasons. Mario loses his inability to KO when he is Doc closing up any arguments Gannon > Doc KO wise and vice versa. The obvious reason Doc is better in this match-up is because attacks come out much faster not to mention his speed. Gannondorf CAN have a hard time putting together combos while Doc has many comboable moves. Gannondorf has little versatility and a heavy fall. His recovery is very predictable, worse than Doc's at any rate making him an easy target when edgeguarding.

Mud Buddha, please back up your statement as it has no use.

Edit: Mood... He's talking about Mario's.

[mood4food77]

I'm going to have to agree with the tier list on this one. Gannons massive KO potential is just too much to ignore. Plus he has a very intimidating presence when you're fighting him.

doc's KO potential isn't much behind ganon's

[Gea]

Ganon's fair is alot easier to land in general, but Ganon has severe issues with his slowness and bigness, in addition to his lack of projectile. Still awesome, just not as.

[mood4food77]

ganon's recovery is way better than doc's, doc is hit once, he is done, ganon can come back from a lot, and ganon (along with falcon) recover faster than anyone from a spike

[Gea]

True. But against alot of characters he eats alot of extra damage as well.

[magnebula]

I dont know about any other Doc players, but I always find myself surviving even after the most devastating of smashes... I dont know if its because Ive mastered Doc's DI, or the fact that I use his moves in the correct sequence (jump, cape, tornado, uppercut). I dont find Doc's recovery to be all that bad, IMO (I stress IMO) Doc's recovery is better than Dorf's. Doc is faster than Dorf, and has the pill... that alone should make him higher than Dorf, the pill. I think Doc should be higher than Jigs, but again its IMO.

[Cyphus]

doc doesn't have any different DI than anyone else.
only issue is that its better to DI upward w/ him so he can recover from distances(as oposed to Jigs, whom u'd rather DI left/right w/ to avoid cieling KOs(assuming the attack trajectory was 45 degrees, which ironically is what the best DI is. 45 degrees from where u would normally be flying.

Recovery is 2 things, distance(horizontal and vertical) and safeness(variation in aproaches and avoidance of edgeguards).
Doc has 1 of those 2. w/ cape, tornado, and a fast, angling upB on sloped edges hes difficult to edgeguard. but his distance sux. Not the worst(thats roy)but it still is below average, no arguement please. lol.
Ganondorf has good distance(not great. Afterall, he can't recover from low heights much better), but horrible approach.
All in all, i'd have to say Doc has the better recovery, though not by alot.
Ganon's recovery gets confused w/ his weight which in addition to DI allows him to recover more often, but not any better.

so i deffinately agree w/ you, Magnebula, on that.

pill talk...
bleh..how useful are these 'almighty' pills gonna be against someone fast(say fox) on a small level(say yoshi)? u'll rarely get safe chances to use them. and the few opportunities u can throw a pill..it will be blatantly obvious to the oponent of what options he'll have(espeically w/ platforms)
pills are nice, but i find i play better when i try not to have a game revolve around them and use them occasionally. it adds to their element of surprise. a good player can beat spam. if spam were that useful, u'd actually see it being used by the best docs. and you don't. so there.


anyway.its old news that ganon is in the wrong place. Mario needs to move over him, if doc is. Mario is just as good as doc. (and if it were up to me...) Link would be over Ganon, too. "oh, but link is slow and comboed easily!111"
well, u can stfu, cuz ganon is slower, and comboed even more. Link has way better recovery, better combos, and a useful B moves, and about the same reach. Ganon is old skool. He just doesn't do any good in tournaments anymore. so imo...the order should be:

Jiggly, Doc, Mario, Link, Ganon
(respectedly in the same tier)
i feel as if i better not post my whole tier list, cuz thats just asking for arguments, lol.

[magnebula]

I cant find the video now, but I found a vid fo some really talented guys, one was Doc, and I forget who the other was. They were on Kirby 64, and the Doc player had some ridiculous pill spam. He pill spammed the guy so bad, jumping around from each platform... Pills are an extremely valuable asset to Doc's arsenal. The pills are very important...

[CStick]

Mario can combo the **** out of most chars though so maybe both should be above Ganon.

[Cyphus]

yea, pills can be spammed but it has to be a big level and against certain characters.
but if u look at the characters tiered higher than doc, u'll see most of them more then qualified to deal w/ pillspam. Samus, Marth, Sheik, Peach can a'll f.tilt easily through pills, Jigs aerial game is practically immune to it, Fox, Falco, and Captain have fast enough aerial jumps to get around and punish.
Theres a vid of Kenarosu pill spamming IceClimbers on FD successfully. but thats because projectiles in general own iceclimbers..and on FD, it forces them to approach head on, since their aerial progression is as bad as luigi's. I mean don't get wrong, pillspam works good on Bowser, and DK, Ganon, and if under right cicumstances can be great against characters like Peach, but it just seems like pillspam is the talk of his game, when the bes doc players can't normally do i t.