Pills to good? Doc to good?

[Flarefox]

Okay, for a long time now, I've realised that pills are perhaps the second best projectile, after SHL. They make his recovery amazingly safe with upward DI to return to the stage, along with the priority of cape. They set up for combos and entries for Doc to attack. They have nice stun to do so. Throwing many of them out creates a pill-forest that makes it difficult for the other player to get through. You guys have seen the Azen-vs.-Jack matches of TG6 from way back when. This is one of the best examples of limiting the opponent with pills.

Doc is one of the hardest characters to combo in the game. That's why there aren't really any counter-characters to him, IMO. Pills are amazing. Doc's defensive game is amazing. He has a great jab, throw game, and aerials. Does anyone think he deserves to go above Jiggs into the Upper Tier? I want to hear discussion.

[Gea]

No. SHLs are much worse than pills (in most cases) and pills only go so far. Yes they are **** good. However take pills away for a moment. What does Doc have? Low range, medium speed, medium size, medium weight, and a bad recovery. Doc is in no way bad by any means, but I really do think he is one of the characters very well put on the tier list. And I play Doc.

By the way, Marth counters him pretty hardcore.

[ZoSo]

Pills are good, but not that good. Certainly not better than needles. They're just too fragile to be universally useful. On a somewhat related note, fireballs are better for returning to the stage. :D

I suggest making a list of Doc's pros versus his cons, because they both come into play when selecting tier placement.

[Flarefox]

Pills are so good. It's ri-god****-diculous.

[Gea]

*shakes head* A good Marth won't let you get close, knowing that there is **** you can do from a distance. Doc just simply can't get in for a jab or grab without leaving himself open for severe punishment. It isn't a "OH WOW YOU LOSE LOLOL" matchup but its definitely a solid counter. Doc has to play very defensively and really look for openings, and take them as they come.

[KillerPlacebos]

Pills are a very intricate part to Doc's game, obviously. But to say that they are better than SHL might be going to far. IMO, SHL is the best projectile in the game, and one of the reasons Falco is so high on the tier list. Doc doesnt have many true counters, besides marth and jiggs IMO. And like Gea said, a good Marth will never let you get close. Turtling up and spacing is all Marth vs. Doc is, and not even pills can change that. True, pills do allow the elimination of a lot of choices that your opponent gets against Doc, but they are far from gamebreaking or even being better than SHL. While pills have the advantage when returning to the stage, shieldstun, damage, and setups, SHL is just to spammable to be below pills in effectiveness.

However take pills away for a moment. What does Doc have? Low range, medium speed, medium size, medium weight, and a bad recovery. Doc is in no way bad by any means, but I really do think he is one of the characters very well put on the tier list.

I am in total agreeance here. Doc doesnt have that hard of a time against any characters (besides Marth & Jiggs), but at the same time he doesnt really counter any other character. He is the happy medium IMO.

[Cyphus]

to generalize here..the pills are very good against characters below, and really aren't useful on most of the characters above him, if you think about it.
Pills don't help him against fox, falco or falcon cuz they're jumps are too good, marth swipes them away, and i disagree w/ pills > jigs, from my experience fighting Jigs i find pills are literally useless against her aerial approaching game.
Pills......work on sheik. I can't say they're good..but they work on her. Pills are good on Peach and Samus, as long as their only spammed and not rushed.

No arguement, SHL is the best projectile in the game. PIlls may be 2nd, but its theres a HUGE gap in between them, and pills are in the same tier as needles and missles, imo.

and zofo, you get a huge Wave of the Finger, by me!
fireballs better for returning the stage? i'll have to strongly disagree there. Pills angles are the same as your falling one, except their right below you so they open a path for you. On another note, i find fireballs though, are superior in edgeguarding because they're horizontal angle makes it much easier to snipe targets from afar who want to use their DJ (or use mines @.@)

[Legendaryhero]

i feel pills have thier place i the game. without them mario would be in deep trouble. its not like they are unstopable. they are easily predicted and have a bit of a lag to them then again needles own the pill in all aspects. also... if pills were "too" good then doc would most definatly be in atleast highest tier. sounds kinda like a john when u hear it from a player who plays fox.

[Flarefox]

Pills don't help him against fox, falco or falcon cuz they're jumps are too goodI've actually had a lot of trouble trying to navigate my way through pills with fox. I realized that it is easier to just shuffle sexkicks through them, though. Sex kicks seem to ruin pills. D: D: D:

[ZoSo]

and zofo, you get a huge Wave of the Finger, by me!
fireballs better for returning the stage? i'll have to strongly disagree there. Pills angles are the same as your falling one, except their right below you so they open a path for you. On another note, i find fireballs though, are superior in edgeguarding because they're horizontal angle makes it much easier to snipe targets from afar who want to use their DJ (or use mines @.@)

The angle on the pills is what makes them so bad for returning to the stage. When recovering with Mario, you can use fireballs to get rid of would-be edgehoggers. This is almost impossible with the pills, due to their steep trajectory.

I see what you're saying, and the pills are definitely more useful in different circumstances, but I personally find fireballs to be generally more helpful.

[maelstrom218]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Pills are bad at returning to the stage. They make it bloody difficult to edgeguard Doc in general--provided that he's coming in from the right angle, of course.

Determining which projectile is better at deterring edgeguarding, however, depends more on the situation rather than how effective the said projectile is. I'd assume that both Doc and Mario players agree that Pills/Fireballs do a fairly decent job at pressuring edgeguarders to either get off the ledge or screw up edgeguarding attempts; the only difference lies in the situation involved.

Doc's Pills work when you're coming from above the stage at a diagonal angle; Mario's Fireballs work when you're far from the stage at a few degrees above the horizontal. Looking at both scenarios, I'd say that having a projectile would be far more helpful in Mario's situation than in Doc's. Why? Simply b/c when you're in Mario's situation, you're going to be far from the edge, where you'll need your up-b to grab the ledge against an edgehogger. . .and if you didn't have that Fireball, you'd be screwed.

The Fireball works much better simply b/c the situation that calls for it (Mario's up-b getting edgehogged when you're far from the stage) is far more dire than Doc's (where Doc is in range of the ledge anyways). In Doc's situation, Mario could use other means to deter edgeguarders, such as d-airs which would work moderately well. However, in Mario's situation, Doc would be screwed. Completely.

Therefore, the situation at hand judges the overall efficacy of the projectile, and given the aforementioned scenarios, Mario's Fireball would be far more necessary than Doc's Pills.

As for the comparison between Pills and Fireballs, I still think that Pills absolutely rape Fireballs as a means of facilitating offensive approaches. It's not so much that the Pill is long-lasting, or damaging, or has decent stun--it's the fact that you can vary its trajectory. That one simple quality makes it almost unrivaled in terms of limiting the opponent's movement, which is what projectiles have always been about. That, and the fact that you can follow directly behind a Pill to immediately take advantage of your opponent's reaction, is what makes Pills such an effective means of approach. Wading through intelligent Pill spamming is just too bloody hard. It's one of the few things that I really miss ever since I switched from Doc to Mario. That and the KO power. >_>

Where Fireballs trounce Pills is in the realm of sheer versatility. There are some things that Fireballs can do that Pills can't even hope to accomplish. . .off-the-wall fireballs for approach pressure, fireball spiking, fireball to u-air edgeguards, long distance spamming/sniping. . .granted, the Fireball can't compete w/Pills in terms of approaching, but rest assured that they have their (perhaps situational) uses from time to time.

[WarriorKnight]

Mael, you hit the nail right on the head homie, you sure know a lot about both mario's man, why dont you think about using doc?

[maelstrom218]

Mael, you hit the nail right on the head homie, you sure know a lot about both mario's man, why dont you think about using doc?

Meh. Like I said, I used to use Doc back in the day. . .but that really didn't last too long. I switched to my current main when I saw Brown Mario pulling off his insane stuff, and ever since then, I really haven't looked back. Even though Mario has limited KO power and serious range issues, he's always seemed to be more capable than Doc in so many ways.

When using Doc, it's far too easy to devolve into mindless Pill spam and d-smash/f-air abuse. . .which unfortunately works, more often than not. He just seems rather simplistic when compared to Mario's overall versatility. That, and he lacks a proper vertical launcher.

Besides, whenever I use Doc, I feel dirty. I'm supposed to be a Mario player, 100%. :chuckle:

[Gea]

Heh, I was the same way with playing Mario for awhile. Its pretty rare anyone plays both Mario and Doc.

[FlowmastaBo]

See, for some reason I was the opposite. I started with Mario and ended up moving to Doc cuz I thought he seemed more interesting to play... granted, in hindsight, there are a good number of amazing Marios out there, but I still like the ol' Doc better : :)

[LAX]

Needles are the best projectile.

[Dr.M@rio]

I think Pills are one of the best projectile in the game, allow you to setup for comboing,nice stun, they don't have to hit to be helpful, and it allows you to make your opponent move where they don't want to move

[sHy)(gUy]

Ur right ffox doc is too good and pills r too goo. IMO doc's pills are the best projectile in the game, for me anyways no other character uses his projectile to control the match like doc does. What is so good about needles? That is like one attack used, but pills r used for protection, seting up combos, reading ur opponet, controling the match etc....(falcos lazer is good i agree but doesnt have the same amount of uses as pills) The amount of mindagmes u can play just by pill spaming is amazing, u should be using pills througout the whole match, just to make it that much harder on ur opponent.

[TobiasXK]

Yea, except that you can't. Try and rush in with a bill and an immediate follow up. Can't do it, really. Stand and pillspam. It's beatable.

And how are needles just one attack any moreso than pills? Needles can be used for killing like... everything. Approach, recovery, projectiles, attacks... SHLs can come out during your entire match and cancel lag so that they're far more versatile as a pressure game and spammable move. Pills are great and all, and do amazing things at the hands of a player who knows how they work well, but they really don't match Lasers and needles.

[Gea]

Needles are far better as killers and cancelling moves. They are used different ways really. And SHL's are used to control matches much better than pills will ever.

[sHy)(gUy]

Oh how wrong u are, if u understood the power of the pill then ud understand how it changes the way u play and how the match goes. The needles r a single attack, but pills open up all of docs other moves to the point where doc goes from being average to being incerdibly good. Doc doesnt just shoot his pills he moves with them using them to his advantge, ur opponent doesnt just have to focus on u but has to worry about constantly dodging pills and fininding an opening and while theyre doing that u just sit back and read them like a book. Do needles control the flow of the macth? NO. Do needles change the way sheik plays? NO (shes an offensive charatcer) I mean lazers open up alot of attacks for falcos agresive game but they dont have the same priority as the pills. I mean whats the best way to play doc, defensivley and capitalizing on ur opponetts mistakes, and with the pills it enables u to do all of this.

[supermariopro101]

Pills may be a good attack sHY)(gUy but think about it, needles are not a single attack. One pill is cancelled by one needle thus making the pill useless at blocking this projectile. Now I understand pills setup combos excellently with their trajectory and I see how this could affect the opponents behavior but alas they aren't as good as Falco's SHL or Sheik's needles. Again you sound as if one thing can affect the outcome of a match (which it sometimes can) more often than not pills will not give you everything EX: Mario's fireballs will always be a better projectile to stop recovery of the opponent. You prove a VERY GOOD point though.

[sHy)(gUy]

And obviosly u dont know what pill spam is, u dont just stand there and shoot, u full jump pills and short hop pills while moving back and forth and u can also use wavedashing and other techs while pilling. And what do u mean rush in with a pill and immdietly follow up, cant do it really? Thats what pill rushing is and it does work.

Ok im now gonna say that falcos lazers help him in his offensive efforts just as much as doc's pills help him with his defensive efforts.

But when i look at needles i dont see it in the same light as the other 2.

[sHy)(gUy]

Needles r one attack( i know there is more than one needle) u shoot it and its gone. but look at pills they bounce on the ground and stay live, and look how doc moves very similar to the path of the pills ahh it just flows so well together. No one obviously sees the power in pills that i do so w/e, i didnt use to think they were that great either but now i know how how usefull they r, more than anytihng in just that pillspamming(and i mean my defintion of it not just standing still) lets u read ur opponent and play defensivley and neither lazers or needles let u do that.

[Gea]

Needles can cancel fully charged shots. They are MUCH better for edgeguarding as well.

Pillspam isn't everything. You're actually wrong about how good of a wall pills make. SHLs mess up so many characters so much more. Pills are **** useful and **** good, but they aren't a beat all projectile.

[supermariopro101]

Thank you Gea. My point exactly. Pill spamming does not meet the needs other projectiles give. They are useful but far from the best projectile in the game.

[sHy)(gUy]

Well I think ive given far better reasons for my argument, so good that means i have a pretty unique doc and my tactics work, so thats all i have to say.

[magnebula]

Id like to add my two cents, since my main is Doc/Mario, and my friend's main is Sheik. Ok, where to begin... The big difference between the needles and the pills are the trajectory/range, damage, and time taken to attack. The pills obviously have a better trajectory for gaurding the edge, but are rarely used to do so (bair and cape used instead). The needles can be great for gaurding the edge, but only is certain situations where your oppenent is in line with you, as where the pill can be placed on different levels due to how high you jump. Pills do more damage, and take less time to throw. Needles move alot faster though. IMO, I like the pills alot better because of their versatility. They can set up combos, and can really mess with Falcon. The needles take too long to use anyway, and dont set up combos.

About the whole tier thing, I think Doc should be higher. Doc, while he doesnt have the best of recoveries, makes up for that with everything else, not to mention his "magnet hands", allowing him to grab the ledge when he is well out of range.. His fair, nair, and bair are godlike when shffl'd. I use the bair to edge gaurd in almost every situation. His cape, IMO, is one of, in not the, best assets he has. It owns Fox's and Falco's recoveries, and if you can really use it well, pwns everyone else. The only counter that can be played extremely effective against Doc is Marth, as many of you already know. Marth's hit box is rediculous, and destroys Doc if used correctly. I think Puff is too light to be that high up on the tier, Doc can KO her at pretty low percents (under 90% easy). Ehh, Id write alot more, but I just dont feel like it.

[Gea]

Pills are not better than needles for edgeguarding by a long shot. He is where he needs to be on the tier list. Range is a huge issue with Doc, and it isn't like he utterly dominates every matchup either. Puff can get lower % kills than Doc and faces less "bad matchups" as Doc.

[sHy)(gUy]

Yaa u said some good stuff but u still didnt say how pills can help u play mindgames with ur opponent, keep distance, control the match, help read ur opponent, help keep u on the defensive, and just plain aggravate ur opponent. Everyone that plays me says they hate my doc cuz of pillspam and i say the same things about marth for fsmash and chainthrow and peach for recovery and downsmash. I believe that without pills i would lose this advantage that i have with doc. Withought pills my doc would suck. Pills r so important, i dont think u can play doc to his full potential without pills but i could see playing sheik and barely even needing to use needles. Pills are good, they are not an end all be all projectile that breaks the game but i do believe they benefit the character more then any other projectile(Except maybe falco and his lazer)

[Gea]

This wasn't a discussion on whose game benefits most from their projectile, it was which projectile was the best. Pills are not it. A good player can just whiz past any pillspam there is and keep that Doc who relies on it constantly busy with an in your face game.

After playing many faster players I tend to spam less unless I have room. I just throw them well and get them in nearly always. Its a great pressure game, but pillrushing when its expected gets you shieldgrabbed and pills are far too slow to be overly useful to Doc's edge game.

Just because it limits someone approach doesn't mean you can predict them. I could easily fulljump over your pills and right above you, double jump fast fall an aerial on you. You just whiffed an angled fsmash because you thought I was going to drop one then.

If anything too many Docs hide behind their pills. I say learn to play with them. Learn to play without them. Learn when its okay to spam, and when its not. Get good at aiming and use it as a pressure game. Screw depending on pills. I have great aerials, a good cc game, and powerful smashes. I can depend on all of my moves together, pills included to get me everywhere.

If your Doc is absolute crap without pills, you have a poor Doc. Hell yes they add a major boost to his game, but don't act that that is his game.

And like I said, needles are a different KIND of projectile. It isn't made for spam.

[sHy)(gUy]

Heh, i dont hide behind my pills , they come out naturaly now to me while im moving so i can immideatly follow up and attack or dodge. Ur right u can jump right over my pills but im gonna see what ur doing cuz im watching what u do and not my pills, that is just a reflex now like wding or anytihng else. SO maybe i use pills more than u cuz i like to play more defensive so for me they r very important to my game. And u dont have to attack going into a pill rush u can fake them out running at them and dodging wding back or anything. The match becomes alot more for me a big mind game where i think i have the advantage.

[sHy)(gUy]

Oh and Gea looking at first post on this topic u say "look at doc without his pills", like without his pills doc is nuthing and now u say dont depend on the pills and learn to play wihtout them? (Seems like u think they r pretty vital to him yet now u say they r just some addition to ur game now?) Why r u lessining their importance now, when earlier u said how important they r?

[maelstrom218]

Oh and Gea looking at first post on this topic u say "look at doc without his pills", like without his pills doc is nuthing and now u say dont depend on the pills and learn to play wihtout them? (Seems like u think they r pretty vital to him yet now u say they r just some addition to ur game now?) Why r u lessining their importance now, when earlier u said how important they r?

Just a tip here--pointing out a person's (possible) flaws in their argument in order to bolster your own position and respective credibility would work MUCH better if you actually used proper grammar and spelling. . .as opposed to typing like a 12-year old AIM addict who just happens to be high on meth.

You see, when trying to engage in intelligent discussion, it's probably a good idea to at least pretend to be intelligent. You know, so your argument is more palatable to the reader.

What Gea is trying to say, and what you really don't seem to understand, is that Doc's Pills play an important role in his approach game, but not a vital role in his overall game. Doc excels at edgeguarding, crouch-cancelling, grab combos, KO'ing--Pills for approaching are just one minor facet in the whole of Doc's gameplay.

Personally, I've seen my fair share of Docs (myself included) who overly rely on Pill Spam and d-smash. Pills alone will CLEARLY not let you win the match; any opponent who is even remotely intelligent can deal w/Pills. Yes, they are crazy in terms of facilitating approach and limiting enemy movement, but I'll be ****ed if I'll let a Doc launch Pills my way and have myself start squealing like a girly n00b, and let them all hit me as I drop my controller, dazed and confused.

Overreliance on Pills handicaps your game, b/c once the opponent gets inside that Pillspam--which will happen--you're going to have to rely on your up-close game. Doc actually excels up close given his CC and grab game, but if you haven't given that area much thought b/c Pills have been protecting you, then you'll be screwed, sooner or later.

Pills are not the end-all-be-all for Doc. They are not pwnage, they are not unstoppable, they are not godly, and nor do they magically cause a giant "INSTA-WIN" button to materialize on your lap. Pills help--perhaps a great deal--but they are not essential to his game the way SHB is to Flaco.

Pills are simply a means to an end--to be able to get close as safe as possible to land the hits/grabs that you need to. They do that moderately well, but they aren't as godly as you make them out to be. Please calm your effusive Pill enthusiasm.

[The Cape]

Fireballs > Pills in my opinion.

However the horrid lag on both projectiles makes them harder to follow up from.

SHB, Missles, and needles are better than both however.

[maelstrom218]

Fireballs > Pills in my opinion.

However the horrid lag on both projectiles makes them harder to follow up from.

SHB, Missles, and needles are better than both however.

Cape, you're wrong. It'd be better to say:

Cape's Fireballs > full-screen insta-death hadouken > AK-47 bullets in real life > Flaco's low-tier lines of red pixels

. . .I'm trying to be funny, but I'm really not. It's depressing.

On another note though, I think that Pills are incredibly easy to follow up. . .it's the exit angle + trajectory that makes it possible, even when you have the considerable lag from a short-hopped Pill-Rushed pill.

[The Cape]

Cape, you're wrong.

I'm in shock.

Never EVER thought I would hear you say that, even in jest.

We are now at war.

[maelstrom218]

I'm in shock.

Never EVER thought I would hear you say that, even in jest.

We are now at war.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

My humblest apologies O Grand Exalted Cape--I submit to your divine authority in complete and utter obeisance.

In recompense, I now declare myself as the Fool of Smash, and admit that The Cape is always right, 100% of the time.

>_>

[sHy)(gUy]

Ur right im on meth, and dun no good english. If i tried to use grammar and speelling i could but i dotn really want to. I stated my opinions and pointed out a flaw in his.(OK maybe it wasnt good) I wasnt trying to bolster my own position? Ur bolstering ur position by getting involed and attacking me.



Anyways doc is good and pills r good. Pills r the best projectile in the game. Maelstrom is mean and im going to go cry.

[sHy)(gUy]

FFox get back in here and back me up......... plz? Everything u said in the first post was so beatiful. Dont let these mean people degrade the pill anymore.