Doc. Mario Counters?

[Zander805]

Hey guys, I'm a Falco / IC player, and it seems the Doctor always has an advantage over me. He quick recovery makes it hard for me to combo him with Falco, and his cape confuses the hell out of Nana. Also, there are very few grab combos my ICs can perform against the Doctor.

So I've been wondering who counters Doc. Mario?

EDIT: Sorry guys, I just did a search and found the counters: Samus, & Marth. This thread should be closed, my mistake... ><

[Renth]

i don't believe in counter charaters personally but if you want to try it, i'd probably go with marth, Mario/Doc destroy space animals and IC i've never seen do much against doc so i dunno what to tell ya

[Gea]

Samus doesn't counter Doc. Marth is by far the worst matchup for him.

[FraJILeSoul]

fight fire with fire and use kirby

[KillerPlacebos]

Doc only has two true counters IMO, Jiggz and Marth. Marth tends to be the hardest matchup, but only if you dont know how to space and combo w/ uair. Jiggz is the most annoying, partly because she isn't comboed as easily, and because her bair outranges alot of Doc's kill moves. WoP is a ***** to deal with when the Jiggz spaces herself very well, and he floatiness doesnt allow you as many combos on her. Dthrow -> fair works well at low %, but other than that you have to rely on her missing an LC or a bair to really punish her. To the thread starter, Samus does not counter Doc. Her projectiles are just as hazardess to her in this matchup, which makes it 50-50 IMO. Who ever plays better will get the win.

[Bob Money]

imo link and marth

[Gea]

I'd agree with Link as well.

[Player00]

Marth, Jigglypuff, and Peach. In that order.

It's interesting that Bob$ would say Link though, because as we all know he plays a really good Doc(one of the best). And I know he has a lot of experience with this match, so I would really like to hear the reasoning behind this one, because it never occured to me that Link could counter Doc.

[NotAchickEn]

Marth is such a *******, other than that yea jiggz. i dont understand bob's say on link but w/e

[Gea]

Because of a few things. A heavy projectile Link (which Germ is not, look at HDL if you want to see the difference) pins Doc pretty well down, because caping anything doesn't really help much. The boomerang is angled, the bomb can be caught easily and rethrown, and arrows... well... I'm not too sure what to say about arrows.

Link has an easier time than most with pills, having both a sword and shield to take them out. Sure, he is combo'd pretty easy, but Doc's approach is very crippled, and Link has the range too. No getting a few frames of being under the sword either, with Link's sword being more of Doc's height.

Link also gets the edgeguarding advantage, easily killing Doc with any missed sweetspots.

Its not like Marth/Doc, but it surely isn't an easy match.

[Cyphus]

link's sex kick is the best approach through pillrushes. If doc gets UpBed, he dies. simple as that. Doc can't edgeguard link worth of crap.(if link does it intelligently, like not hookshoting at the top if doc is waiting there) Doc is forced to KO link the old fashion way. Rack up damage and smash attack. Link's sex kick outspeeds, out reaches, and outprioritizes doc.

if bombs aren't caped perfectly, they explode in your face, and either way...he can catch them again. Boomerangs arc upwards, and arrows aren't really to be used, anyway. In edgeguarding doc, all link has to do is jump off and fly into him w/ his weak sex kick, its priority guarantees it hits (or exchanges hits) and pushes doc too far to recover. Link lag on that is virturally unnoticable allowing him to go way out or under the level and still make it back. Neither tornado stalling or caping, save him from this horrible defeat. Link can KO doc at very early damage if he gets luck too, w/ a few Jab/shuffles into hookshot, uptilt, aerial pursuit into an UpB.

links combos on doc are alot more dangerous than doc combos on link.
link edgeguards doc alot better than doc edgeguards link.
link has better reach and priority.
they're projectile games vs. each other is about even, imo.

make sense to me, no?


EDIT:
bleh...counters? Marth, Link, Jigs, Samus, imo.

[Bob Money]

cyphis nailed the reasoning.
link can get comboed but llinks sexkick breaks up jultilts mand many thinkings
also if doc downsmashed or smasheds link he can get sgield grabbed because of links range on the grab. link eats pils up better than marth with sexkixk jabs anything even just standing there. but yeah tough match up for doc., marth is hard too but he can get concombed easuer and stuff. its easier to appraoch marth

[Mann]

I used to believe that Ganon countered Doc because of his Uairs. Two Uairs on Doc, and knocked back too much already. But then again, Doc can just keep using his Bairs and keep Ganon from recovering.

[Gea]

Or cape, since Ganon goes faaaaaar above the lip. Or hell, I bet you could get away with a down angled fsmash or just a dsmash. But caping and bairs is the easy way to go. Pills rape Ganon pretty hardcore.

[supermariopro101]

Speaking of doc's f-smash, does anyone know where the sweetspot is for tremendous damage? I know its one of the smallest sweetspots in the game.

Since ganondorf is such a weak jumper, once you knock him off if your really good, you can time a dtilt for a land meteor(forgot what it called) it's risky but its a good way to put an end to ganondorf, since it's one of doc's moves that is rarely used because of its weird ttrajector, at low percentages and who doesn't need that. If a bair will work though, use it.

[Gea]

Behind his palm. Basically his wrist.

[supermariopro101]

Ok. Thanks Gea.

[blaksheap82]

cyphis nailed the reasoning.
link can get comboed but llinks sexkick breaks up jultilts mand many thinkings
also if doc downsmashed or smasheds link he can get sgield grabbed because of links range on the grab. link eats pils up better than marth with sexkixk jabs anything even just standing there. but yeah tough match up for doc., marth is hard too but he can get concombed easuer and stuff. its easier to appraoch marth

But Germ is an exceptional Link, and the Doc I play against always seems to be able to roll past my hookshot... pisses the crap out of me. If I try I can usually grab him when he's closing in for an aerial, though, and almost always with the shieldgrab in this instance. Also, their proj game is not equal: the rate that Doc can spam pills at can rule Link's proj spamming on platform stages, because the shelter the platforms provide can make it very hard to get the right arc on the bombs and arrows, if not impossible, and Link has to pull out his projs, making them slower, and all of Link's projs are canceled out by the pills; and jabs are only effective for closing in to a certain extent. For other people this might not be so much of a problem, but what it boils down to is that I don't have one shred of the camper mentality in me, and my friend could spam pills for an hour straight if he wanted to. But on FD or Corneria where there are no platforms for shelter (except for the fin), it's a different story.

And the cape means missiles have next to little effectiveness on a good Doc, or Mario for that matter. Samus still has the priority, but I don't see Samus as a Doc counter. I really don't know enough about this match to say for sure, though.

[Gea]

Samus isn't a counter, but Link definitely has an advantage on Doc.

[blaksheap82]

Yeah, you said that, and lately I haven't been having as much trouble with Docs as I used to, but the main point I was trying to make was that on platform stages, pill spamming can put a serious cramp in Link's proj game, and any idiot who's never played Smash before could tell just from watching a vid that projs are an enormous part of Link's game. However, on Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, or FD, Link can get more range out of his projs than Doc can, and the pills are only good up close. So it can very greatly depending on the stage.