Omg.....what Just Happened?!?!

[Sunchaser007]

Ok, so i'm playing smash one night and I'm just getting some quality training time in /w a buddy of mine and he quits playing so I decide to play against random, lvl9 cpus. Well, I was doing great all the while 4 stocking every computer opponent I faced.....then I fought the Doc. Now, I KNOW i'm a good player. I'm a player that travels to tournys alot but for some reason.....doc was beating me down like I was a noob or something. He's quick, he's powerful, and he's got some great pill popping action. Everytime i'd do a move, he'd just pop in there /w a random move that would always hit me before I could get a shield up in time or back off. So, I guess my questions are this.

1. Do other good players out there have a certain difficulty fighting a lvl9 Doc?
2. Does the game have any degree of artificial intelligence or some kind of learning mechanism?
3. What is so special about lvl9 Doc or it just on my copy of the game that he plays like a human player?

Please help me out here, and I know that this looks like I'm just some idiot who can't play, but I'd really appreciate some positive criticism and insight rather than just hearing about how much of a noob I am. I've been playing this game seriously for about 2 years now........I'm no noob. Just please, if someone knows anything about this situation.....lemme know. Thx

[Blueshadow]

oh yeah.. I think doc's pretty competent in comparison to the others. i'm no pro, or tourny bound player yet, but omg... i just tested him out. he was edgegaurding, and hopping off to attack me, he was doing great with his attacks, and his weight made my fsmash useless(marth btw). definately better than usual, or the others. the only reason i won was because of his suiciding 2 times out of 4 stocks

[Cyphus]

does ur doc friend use a NameTag?
using a nametag influences the computer version of that character by shifting around the ratio of attacks they'll use sequentially, as used by the human...or so the dead rumor went.
Personally..i believe it and will try it out some time. If this is so...using a a fresh memory card, w/ a new name tag as a character..such as Roy...and only using successful counters..should influence the Computer Roy to counter more commonly.(and we all know they love to never miss w/ counter)

[Gea]

I believe it because my compies play freakin weird. Like Marth spams dancing blade and Mario whores up + b, pichu taunt whores and my Samus bombs after getting hit about half the time.

[xRedDeathx]

lol all comps do that stuff...like taunt thier own deaths....

[Sunchaser007]

hmmmm, now that you mention it....i do have someone who's most used character is doc. So you think the doc picked up stuff from that player?

[coheed]

I don't think that that is true. I played as Samus for over a year and a half before switching to the Doc like, two or three weeks ago, and my Samus plays like any other computer.

[Duke]

Yes, I don't think the doc got any better because he learned from a human. I don't think the AI does that or at least does a very good job of it. I heard this from someone who described the AI as follows: The AI works on something like a point system; when they hit you with an attack it gains a point when they miss it looses a point. WHy do you think they jab so much because jabs are fast and usually hit. I'm not sure if this is true but it seems simple enough to work.

[Blueshadow]

Yes, I don't think the doc got any better because he learned from a human. I don't think the AI does that or at least does a very good job of it. I heard this from someone who described the AI as follows: The AI works on something like a point system; when they hit you with an attack it gains a point when they miss it looses a point. WHy do you think they jab so much because jabs are fast and usually hit. I'm not sure if this is true but it seems simple enough to work.



the point system actually makes sense.

[Gea]

If you wanna say that all compies do that you don't play many. My Fox smashes instead of shines after throws. The CPU Fox isn't supposed to smash. Its supposed to shine.

[Sunchaser007]

hmmm, i wonder what it is. I can definately buy the point system.....it would explain the extreme overuse of the "A" button all the time. All I know is that my Doc is the hardest of the cpus on my game. It's hard for me to get in a clean attack w/o being counterattacked right after. Who's the hardest cpu in your games?

[D'oH]

My sheik uairs or fairs me after a down throw. eh

[Blueshadow]

i have something else for doc and mario.
Last night, a few minutes before i go to sleep, i played them 2 on 1, lvl 9, 4 stock. mario has 1 stock, doc has 2. I ko mario, and i thought it'd be 1 on 1, but, they did the life-share trick... OMG. i went into shock, and went to sleep.


comments? and i'm serious (forgot to post it earlier).

[Renth]

i have never seen the computer do that, i woulda **** myself if i saw that lol

[Renth]

:urg: disregard this post accidently double posted

[Metal_Doc]

I really have no problem beating lvl 9 Doc. I don't 4 stock him but I atleast 2 stock him. He seems to play just like any other lvl 9 would.

[Legendaryhero]

im gonna say that i haven't really seen the trend in characters using players moves but i normally will play against a fox since i see him most often and he really doesn't do anything out of the ordinary... spamming a dthrow to shine but i myself find a lvl 9 doc easy to beat and thats what i normally play so i dunno. maybe ur just not used to playing one that crappy and it threw u off keep trying

[Sunchaser007]

How crappy can a doc be when he grabs a shiek right out of the donw smash?

[supermariopro101]

I think it depends on how well you play against the computer (or with) EX: I played with a computer in team battle to test this theory. When I played bad so did the computer but when I played like a pro it got a little better.)

[Sunchaser007]

so what you're saying that it kinda fights in the same "mood" as i'm fighting?

[Supreme Pie Ninja]

The way Doc is set up, can make him a menace to some player's strategies. Same goes for Luigi. Some people find Doc as easy as the rest, while some (including myself from time to time) find him unusually challenging.

[supermariopro101]

Exactly. The way you fight is basically going to affect the way the computer fights which kind of goes back to the point theory. Meaning if your playing better than the computer at a moment it will compensate for its lack of intelligence by using the point system.

[Digamma]

How crappy can a doc be when he grabs a shiek right out of the donw smash?
Lol. Okay I play Sheik (as you may have guessed) and I get grabbed out of down smashes by lvl9 CPUs and my rl friends alike. I do it to other Shieks. It's really not that hard...

Anyways, back to your topic. Let me start by saying, I don't think this whole "AI learning" thing is true. I mean that would just be a little freaky... >_>
And as for your opening post, I agree that Doc makes a good CPU and he has to be one of the hardest up there with fox.

[supermariopro101]

You may be right Digamma, but some unknown causes for the computer to act "uncomputer like"
make causes for explanation. Perhaps after the making of smash bros. nintendo got complaints for computers being to easy and decided to step up a bit. (We never may be able to solve this argument*sigh*)

[Sunchaser007]

All this being said, and I know this is off topic but i've got an idea for nintendo with the new smash and i want to talk to them. Do you guys know any way I could get in touch with someone "important?" My idea would be to have a feature where you could actually train the cpu......wouldnt it be awesome to go to the next smashfest and get darkrain to train your captain falcon for you, or maybe chudat could teach the Ice climbers to be just like him? I think it would be awesome and i think that this idea needs to be heard by them.


Ok, now to get back on topic....it may be just that my playing style is in some way countered to a certain degree by doc's playing style. I mean, some people say he's easy....some people say he's hard. None of this can really be pointing out that any of us are bad players, I think it's that certain people just have weaknesses in their playing style and we just need to adapt our playing style to compensate for that. I play /w ganon as a secondary character and my ganon just pwns doc, whereas my other characters have a challenging time. My ganon's strategy is much different than the way I play most other characters........so maybe all the problem would be, is our playing styles.

[supermariopro101]

'nough said.
Try:
phone
1-800-255-3700

email
www.nintendo.com/consumer/webform.jsp

[Gea]

It isn't that they "learn" so much as mimick.

[Sleek Media]

Hmm...I go to a school for game design. We didn't study fighting AI in the AI class, but as a programmer, I think the point system makes the most sense. I had a similar idea for a fighting game I wanted to make. The learning theory is possible. I'll try it just for kicks.

As for lv9 computers wrecking you, don't feel bad. You won't win every time. It's just like how skilled players can be defeated by less skilled players on occasion. It's rare, and it shouldn't happen by reason, but it does.

[Blammo!]

I'll tell you what it is, its the Man controlling our Cubes!! They got little people in metal boxes with amplifiers on their heads tryin to TAKE CONTROL!!!!! Alright maybe not. But i have notcied the CPU's skills fluxuating (is that how you spell it?) I main as Doc and every time i play falcon he either spams the freaking fair of doom or the Falcon punch. And sheik occasionally needle cancells all of my pill spams too. It SEEMS like the CPU's are learning but then they get crappy again...

Oh, and I've had a CPU steal a life before too. T'was scary

[Digamma]

Actually it's fluctuating...

Oh and nice theory Blammo, makes sense to me.
It SEEMS like the CPU's are learning but then they get crappy again...
So essentially its all random which is what I've been saying from the beginning.

[Duke]

And as for your opening post, I agree that Doc makes a good CPU and he has to be one of the hardest up there with fox.

Fox is not a hard computer AT ALL. Lvl. 9, final destination, no damage: Just stand there at the beggining fox will shoot some blaster, shield them, he will eventually do a running grab, side dodge it, grab him and up-throw chain him to 115%, he won't DI at all, then finish him with a Uair after the final Up-throw.

[LAX]

Or just don't play computers

[Digamma]

Fox is not a hard computer AT ALL. Lvl. 9, final destination, no damage: Just stand there at the beggining fox will shoot some blaster, shield them, he will eventually do a running grab, side dodge it, grab him and up-throw chain him to 115%, he won't DI at all, then finish him with a Uair after the final Up-throw.
Well when you look at it that way, any CPU is easy. See when I play against CPUs I try not to take advantage of their lack of DI and predicatable recovery/approach. Its alot more fun and challenging when you purposely don't capitalize on the mistakes of the CPU.

[magnebula]

I dont know about anyone else, but I find every single CPU to be easy... once you get them off the edge, just edge gaurd them, I can 5 stock any level 9, I really dont see the problem... Lvl 9 Doc is one of the easiest (I use Doc as my main) IMO. BTW, I only play lvl 9s to try to exploit any holes in my combos allowing them to escape or attack...

[McD]

hmmmm, now that you mention it....i do have someone who's most used character is doc. So you think the doc picked up stuff from that player?


I don't think the game AI would learn stuff, that just doesn't makemuch sence to me...It sure as hell doesn't for me anyway...but hey...what do I know :P
And if the game does learn stuff, It would be official
SSBM is the greatest game EVER, next to "super mario all stars" of course

[uber_n00b]

I think it would be really cool if we got a "team" of sorts to try and test different theories about the AI (like 1 person dodges / shields every jab, but lets themselves get hit by the falcon punch etc, 1 person that tries the gamertag idea)

Oh, and I've never seen the life steal but I've seem a lvl 9 wavedash on occasion

[Jackslap]

where does everybody stand on the whole idea of the AI learning from the human players? Do you think its really true or just a myth?

[Jackslap]

where does everybody stand on the whole idea of the AI learning from the human players? Do you think its true or just a myth? ;)

[Jackslap]

srry for the dbble post

[Alex13]

We feel your pain. Trust me. Lvl 9's give everyone trouble, and it isn't because they're good, it's actually that they're BAD that makes them so good. Because we're used to fighting humans, computers dazzle us with unexpected, nooblike movements and suprise us and we're all like "WTF!!" but it happens.