Doc vs. Sheik

[Bill-RiZeR]

It seems like Sheik is too fast for the fat Italian guy. Everytime I pill rush my opponent needles and negates them. And plus with Doc's horrid recovery and Sheik's fantastic speed, it seems like it's almost impossible for me to beat a Sheik.

Any advice on how to take care of that annoying easy-to-use top tier character?

[AdamXiah]

Check out Cyphus' Doc FAQ in the stickies.

My general Sheik advice:

1. Sheik can be combo'd. D-Throw + UTilt + follow up with anything you seem fit (ie shffl'd UAirs, NAir, or BAir)

2. Sheik can be chain grabbed. DThrow and immediatly follow the DI and grab. Remember to get one hit in every grab.

3. Sheik's needles can be jumped over and sometimes caped.

4. Don't depend on your pill rush. It's not your crutch. Use it, use it often, but not too often.

5. BAir Sheik when Sheik is recovering.

[Essence_of_the_Gods]

The most important thing you have to remember, if you can get Sheik in the air, then you have the advantage from below

[deathchicken]

3. Sheik's needles can be jumped over and sometimes caped.
I wouldn't go too much for caping them-it's easier to dodge them most the time.

4. Don't depend on your pill rush. It's not your crutch. Use it, use it often, but not too often.

I agree. Needles > Pills, 99% of the time. Use it once, maybe twice-don't overdo it. I've actually only used it once vs. a decent Shiek player, it's tough to get around Needles.

[stuntcuum3571]

Against Sheik you need to CC. That goes for any character. Once you get under her, make her feel it. Dthrow is gunna combo at low(like adam said), it can chain, and is gunna lead to Fsmash or downsmash around 100% for the kill. Down forget to jab after shielded or low knock back aerials, and if it hits, Dsmash

[Mosarani]

Isn't doc considered a counter pick to sheik? It seems to be one of the easier matchups for doc, as opposed to marth or peach.

[AdamXiah]

Doc's game versus Sheik is pretty fair. Doc can combo and chaingrab Sheik just as much as Sheik can combo and chaingrab Doc, not to mention Sheik's ability to jump out and needle/FAir/BAir Doc's poor recovery.

[stuntcuum3571]

Sheik cant chainthrow Doc, and this is not an even match. Sheik is al around faster, has more range, and more ways to start combos than doc. not to mention a better projectile and better recovery.
did I mention more range???

[AdamXiah]

Sheik is definitely not a counter to Doc. Both characters can combo each other. Both characters can chaingrab each other. Both characters can effectively edgeguard each other. Sheik's speed is detered by Doc's pills. Pills and needles are not used for the same purpose. Needles are used to stop an opponents dash, inflict damage, or disrupt recovery. Pills are used to advance to the opponent, contrasting to the defensive nature of the needles. The difference between Doc's DSmash with Sheik's DSmash is negligible. Doc's DTilt can reach Sheik almost as effectively as Sheik's DTilt can reach Doc (EDIT: I mean F-Tilt).

A Doc can play aggresively versus a Sheik, unlike Doc's defensive nature of tactics when fighting a Marth. Sheik is definitely not a counter to Doc.

[stuntcuum3571]

Needles can also be used to setup for grabs and camping. Sheik cant chainthrow doc, dude, maybe she could do it once from 0, other than that his sex or midair jump gets him out. Doc's downtilt is crap compared to Sheik's. It maybe be about equal in range, but it doesnt have near the combo starting potential. I would also argue that Sheik is far better at edge guarding, cuz needles just eat doc alive.

Off topic. you need to head to Victorville so we can play.

[AdamXiah]

Err, I said D-Tilt? The hell? My mistake. I meant F-Tilt. Sheik's DThrow can surely chainthrow Doc. Try it. At low percents, Doc is not sent up high enough to allow ample time to pull off his sex kick or double jump.

And Victorville is an hour away! No offense but I would rather drive to LA where there are actually more people to play. Victorville is like... another Palmdale. Eh.

[Silvance]

Sheik isn't that difficult to fight with Doc. CCing is a good idea, and if it's an easily predictable Sheik, then you should be able to shield grab and combo extremely easily. You can occasionally wd into a dsmash to catch her off guard, and your bair is good against pretty much anybody.

[Mosarani]

If anything the match is in docs favor, but I don't like to get into counter pick crap because in most cases, more practice and understanding will level the playing field. Doc may have trouble on FD, but in just about any other level I'd say sheik's at a disadvantage. Platforms are great for doc to play on, as he is one of few characters with great jump acceleration and wavedash length. Needles are high damage, but have little value as combo starters. Pills set up perfectly for F-air's, sex kicks, and occasionally, throws.

Doc's chainthrow is bane of unskilled sheiks, and as an ex-sheik abuser I know how few sheiks really know their character. As long as the skill is equal between the doc/sheik, doc's downthrow is still as useful. It can combo into shffl'ed U-airs which can lead to more grabs or juggles.

Each character can edge guard the other pretty well. Sheik has trouble getting out and underneath the stage to slap, and doc is well suited to coming up from far below. If sheik is returning above the stage you have the opportunity as doc to wavedash backwards and let the momentum send you into sheik as you B-air. Once you get two B-air's off you can double jump and up B. If sheik is coming in low you can wait for her to up B, then judge where you think she'll go and jump up into a F-air. In short, I'd rather be a returning doc against sheik then a returning sheik against doc.

[Shiro]

doc's ftilt is nothing compared to Sheik's. It has a bit more range, less lag, and is perfect for comboing. doc's is a decent poke at best, sheik's is one of the best tilts in the game. Sheik cant chainthrow Doc. just no.

[Legendaryhero]

Isn't doc considered a counter pick to sheik? It seems to be one of the easier matchups for doc, as opposed to marth or peach.

gonna have to disagree with that one buddy... peach is probobly 1 of the hardest doc matchups along with samus due to their ability to CC most all of docs combo moves and docs short grab range which makes peaches d smash lethal... i wouldn't say doc is a counter to any character really... maybe if they aren't good fox/falco or ganon since he can cape thier recovery easily but elsewise.....

[LAX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=56924

[Mosarani]

gonna have to disagree with that one buddy... peach is probobly 1 of the hardest doc matchups along with samus due to their ability to CC most all of docs combo moves and docs short grab range which makes peaches d smash lethal... i wouldn't say doc is a counter to any character really... maybe if they aren't good fox/falco or ganon since he can cape thier recovery easily but elsewise.....

...
You're saying that you disagree and that peach is a counter to doc, which is exactly what I said. If you want to debate whether doc is a viable counter to sheik then by all means provide information pertaining to that matchup.

[maathimself]

One thing in Cyphus' Doc guide that I've found very true is when he says, " Doc owns when he can control the fight from the center." I've found that I have a much easier time against my friend's Sheik when I stick to the middle of the stage. Of course, stray to the sides when necessary for evasion or attack.

[Shvingy]

dodge and wait....

wait for shiek to try to hit you hard, or do somthing stupid, and then pull off what ever move you think is good enough... also, change this move often to trick the shiek player

also, avoid being on the ground for too long or you constantly be hit by shieks A attacks

[Mosarani]

dodge and wait....


I've heard it said by many of the better players that to counter sheik you just wait for her to mess up. Sheik seems to be left more open after a mistake then the other top tier characters. When I had no knowledge of the game and just used sheik, I was shown this truth very painfully. I was against a doc who was of low skill level, never L cancelled or short hopped. He was, however, insanely good at playing defensively and waiting for me to do something stupid. Doc's dodge is so quick that it takes some thought to avoid being beaten by a doc who does nothing but dodge and downsmash.

[stuntcuum3571]

No top tier character is as easy to punish as Marth. Waiting for Sheik to make a mistake is a good idea, but a good Sheik will be more patient, what/bait you into mistakes.

[FireEmblem81387]

When Sheik is in mid-air, make a surprise attack by attacking in mid-air before she does or side-dodge and grab. Sheik can be combo'd so this can be helpful.

Remember to time your cape when Sheik uses her needles. You can also shield but using the cape might be to your advantage, if it hits Sheik of course lol.

[KiRbY_8o8]

i dont have much advice for you guys but i use docs dash move just to get sheik in the air and then from there your on your own... sorry thats all i got for you
oh wait that and the cape you can see when sheik uses her dash so from there you just gotta cape use that as a crutch if nothin else works

[maathimself]

Make sure you cape Shiek's needles when she tries to edgeguard you with them. The cape will slow down your momentum, but it doesn't hurt your recovery nearly as much as the needles do.

[Bob Money]

Get under her...
she cant get out juggles easy
Use pills to make her jump then get under her
Dwn throw to anyhitng
Always ede hog when u knock sheik off.
dont full jump pill alot because sheik can get under with tilts and DONT DOUBLE JUMP alot. try to break out of her combos
and when ur off the edge anticipate needles with cape, alsoif she hits u while u are doing downb u can do it again .
but shiek should win.