Doc vs. Fox

[Silvance]

I was recently at a tourney, and while my Doc managed to defeat every Falco I faced, the Foxes all destroyed me. One of the Foxes was just out of my league, I understand that, but the other was around my level, but there was little I could do to win that one. Any tips on facing a shine happy Fox would be appreciated.

[xvarner]

yeah you really go to watch out for the shines. spam pills the WD in for the grab. Down through utilt...you know the drill. main thing i try to do is throw them off of the edge then when they try to get back cape their firefox or illusion. easiest way to kill them by far.or to mix it up a bit jump off the egde and gett em with a few bairs. to stop the shine spikes you need to anticipate the shine and cape just before it, causing the fox to float for a second stuck in his shine then sweetspot the edge.I also find that when you know they will go for a shin spike right away upb as soon as you off the edge.yeah you basically need to spam the pills and throw combos to get em off the edge.

[Essence_of_the_Gods]

i agree with xvarner


also, spam aerial moves and suddenly stop so you'll force Fox into waiting for another one and press ground attacks. Keep him guessing and he'll go defensive, where you have the advantage

[maelstrom218]

D-throw->u-tilt isn't such a great option, simply b/c the d-throw is techable, making follow up impossible. In addition, the u-tilt will simply hit Fox too far away to accomplish any further comboing. . .why do that when it's possible to extend the combo through other means?

Doc and Mario have extensive combo games out of their grabs, which revolve around d-throw or u-throw. . .but d-throw only on floaty/heavyweights (Samus, Mario, Ganon, Link etc.) and u-throw or fastfallers (Flaco, Fox, CF). U-throw on Fox/Flaco is especially important, since Doc/Mario can chainthrow them w/the u-throw from zero to about 40% as long as you're using jump-cancelled grabs and follow their DI. From u-throwing, you can always alternate between u-tilts (making sure you're directly beneath them or else you won't knock them vertically upwards), u-smashes and shffl'd u-airs. At very early %s, it's possible to u-throw to f-smash, even. . .though it's not as reliable as the previous combo mentioned.

As xvarner said, the main goal here isn't so much to KO Fox (though Doc is perfectly capable of doing so), but the point is to get him off the ledge. B-throw, d-smash, and f-air are going to be important tools then, as they have the most knockback in his arsenal. Once you get him off the ledge, Fox is screwed any way you look at it. If he tries to side-B to sweetspot the ledge, edgehog. If he uses the side-B to go slightly above the stage, sex kick to interrupt. If he tries to up-b, either fire pills at him while the attack is charging (to drop his height so he's below the ledge, thus forcing him to go into the Cape), or jump out right next to him and Cape as he starts to move from his up-B. And if he's anywhere near the edge when trying to recover, he should be an easy target w/b-airs.

As for countering shine-spiking, it's going to be a little rough. First of all, you want to make sure that you're saving your second jump; i.e. when you get sent off the stage, down-b, cape, then jump, then up-b. . .saving up your second jump allows your recovery to be much less predictable. Furthermore, it allows you to pull of a decent anti-shine-spike tactic: second jumping+u-air can effectively shut down any shine-spike attempt, and you lose no height in the process, and don't jeapordize your recovery (as long as you do a rising u-air)--jumping+d-air also works moderately well. And as xvarner said, up-b'ing early to stop shine-spiking also works. . .it may or may not be safe though, depending on if you can grab the ledge as opposed to landing on the stage. Jumping+firing a Pill may also help deter possible shine-spiking.

Pill Rushing, as in most cases, works well here--just be sure not to use it any closer than medium range, as Fox can dash in and u-smash you if you happen to be using full-jumped Pills.

[maathimself]

I am not nor do I ever face tournament level competitors, but I'll share my thoughts. My friend who plays Fox is on about the same level as me, and I've found that Doc's throws are very useful against Fox. Like they said, b-throw at the edge and cape their recovery is useful for low % kills. He never techs my d-throws, so d-throw to f-smash is extremely useful on him. Because Fox bounces so low from it, I can hit him with it even up to the high 100's, and it will finish him off. It also seems that I use f-air much less on him because it's so easy for him to punish me when I miss. Your f-tilt is good because it come out fast and (for Doc, anyway) has good range. I don't want to drag on , so I'll wrap up. Of course the basics, like pills, b-airs, and A-A combo to set him up.

[Legendaryhero]

abuse the cape all that needs to be said...

[harriettheguy]

I find myself abusing d-smash and its WD comboes. d-smashing out of a throw is a more reliable hit than fsmash, but its accuracy is not worth it at low percents since its knockback isnt too good till 80% and up. Any good fox will anticipate the cape and will try to firefox upwards to avoid it, so have some back up plans (bair, chase bthrow, dsmash if they try to sweetspot.)

[AdamXiah]

maelstrom218 already covered most of it. Note this: Doc is a very good edgeguarder. Doc's BAir is invaluable in his edgeguarding game. Whenever Fox is off the stage, jump out and BAir to interrupt his recovery. You can do multiple BAirs but remember to get back to the ledge; it is simply a matter of practice and experience to know how many BAirs you can perform in any situation. Whenever Fox tries to recover with his Foward B, jump to his level and time your BAir to interrupt it.; this takes timing and practice.

Whenever Fox tries to recover with his Up B, Doc's cape is almost ALWAYS the best choice. Try to get as close to Fox when he starts the move and correctly cape him when it launches. Remember that there is a start up time to Fox's Up B; caping Fox during this time does nothing.

Fox can be efficiently chain thrown at around 30% or higher using Doc's UpThrow. Everytime you grab Fox, or any character for that matter, get one hit in before you throw them. At low percentages anymore than one hit can usually grant enough time for the opponent to wiggle out. To chain grab, UpThrow Fox and immediatly follow his DI to grab him again. This definitely takes time and practice, but can be rewarding to get around 30-40%. After awhile, Fox can usually jump out of the chain grab so find your limits and finish your chain grab combo with a UAir, BAir, or even a FAir.

As mentioned numerous times in the previous posts, to counter Fox's shine, use your Up B early when near the stage. Fox, as he drops down to shine, will unexpectantly hit by your attack or even, if you're lucky, Up-B spiked (on stages with space beneath the platform ie Final Destination and Battle Field. Make your recovery unpredictable and your Fox opponent will think twice before attempting to shine spike.

And on a personal note, I usually do better against Foxes than Falcos. Falco's SH Laser disrupts my approach and his spiking-able Foward B makes me fear to attempt to BAir his recovery. Bleh, must be because of different styles of play of opponents. Happy Smashing.