Pikachu counters?

[xvarner]

Pikachu counters. Who are they and why do they counter Pika? Who does Pika counter and why?

[Tope]

Currently I'm having the hardest time fighting Mario. His Sex kick beats out all of Pika's ariel and ground moves, except usmash and that's hard to time. Also he can easily chainthrow till about 40%. He easily combo's Pika into his forward smash, and if he starts a uair chain, he can get like 5 hits in. His WD is excellent when Pika is jumping in with an arial, and I believe his utilt also beats out most if not all of Pika's arials. Not to mention you can't edgeguard him with jolts at all because of that stupid cape.

[T Bird]

Umm. The cape is not really an anti edge gaurding technichue, it's got a lot of lag in it and often has to be used for the m to get back, so they don't get to use it for gaurding. When they're close enough they don't need it to recover then it's a problem. When that happens go for the tail spike, your under neath him so it won't be as easy to cape.
Pikachus tail is a disjointed hit box, Marios leg doesn't stick that far out of his body. U-air should stop him, though it's weak, but up tilt should to. pikachu has awesome smashes so people ofter forget his tilts, but his forward tilt actualy has crazy priority for such a fast little kick too.
As to counters, many people have mentioned Marth. He can chain grab just as easy and combo arials better and combo to forward smash. Upside is that tail spike is pretty much inst-death.
Then there's Ganondof. I beleaf this was mentioned in the Pika guide. Pika likes to trade blows, and no one likes to trade blows with ganondorf, except bowser.

[N64]

Copied from my post in the Official Counter Thread in general:

Pika's counters:

Shiek - Chain-throw to 70% ( or until pika can DI off an edge ), then fair and needles/dsmash/tilts/fair to edge-guard. Ftilt screws up pika's weak approach game as well.

Falco - SHB forces pika to stay aerial, on platforms above falco (where he usually doesn't like being), or locked in his shield. It also makes approaching falco awkward. Sure, pika can chain upthrows on him, but shine, SHB to grab/dsmash, and shffl'd dairs make this difficult. Pika's upsmash, while good for combos in this fight, becomes less useful as a kill move, so pika has to rely on nair or a lucky uair spike, then edge-guarding (though, pika's ability to edge-guard falco isn't extremely advantageous as falco's recovery is pretty poor anyhow).

Marth - Pika's lack of range shines here. Sword owns about all of pika's approach options(nair, jolt, JCgrab), so he has to spend a lot of the fight dancing just outside of marth's range and hoping for a whiffed swing that he can take advantage of. A tipper, though, can easily kill the light rat at mid-high percents. Marth sets the pace for most of the fight, while pika has to wait for a chance to uair spike or run in and upsmash after a whiff.

ICs? - This might not be a true counter. Just an opinion of mine. ICs play primarily a ground-game, wding around and fsmash/dsmashing/usmash/grab-throwing opponents (rough generalization, I don't play ICs). They are rarely in the air, and this is a disadvantage for pika. A lot of pika's combos start with the opponent either shielding(and getting grabbed) or being aerial. Pika's ground combos usually start with rising uair/usmash/dsmash/shffl'd nair. Most of these require pika to be close to the opponent (and nair usually gets him there). The problem with this against ICs is that nana and the ICs' dsmash can mess this up pretty easily. When pika approaches them with, say, a shffl'd nair, popo shields and nana grabs, or they just fsmash/dsmash (or wd back, then forward after the attack, and dsmash) through pika's attack. If pika can pop the ICs into the air, things get a lot easier, but initially popping them up is a pain. Dsmash can also kill pika at rather low percents, and it forces pika to sweetspot the edge. Pika just has a hell of a time breaking through the ICs defenses, and gets destroyed if he can't.


Pika does have a tough time against mario, doc, and ganon as well, but I don't think it's enough to consider them "counters".

[xvarner]

Good posts. Now, what effects would the different stages have against the advantages these characters have on Pika? On what stages does Pika stand a better chance?

[Your_Rival]

I definately agree with Sheik being the number one counter. That's how I lost at MLG this summer. (Didn't even know she could do that!!) Anyway, I find that the Mario/DR. can be really good against Pika, soley because of his really good ftilt. It has good range and really good recovery. My friend uses it really well, and it gets me angry becauase it can beat out most attacks. Pika's dtitl scoops under it sometimes, though, but it not always sure. I kind of want to disagree with Falco being a counter to Pika. I think in that mach-up, I'd actually be pretty confident in using my pika against one. Maybe I just haven't fought one who fights the right way against pika though.

[T Bird]

Corneria is Pikachu's stage. It belongs to him. it's rightfully his. A match up against alomst anyone will be easier with Pikachu here. Very low ceiling. Problem of course that it has very close blast lines too... So against Gannon/Marth... Can hurt if not done well. I'm also not positive on the falco thing, it's true that it's harder to kill of the top, but his recovery sucks so much that it's easy for even Pika to kill off the side relatively quickly, especialy a tail spike.

[xvarner]

Yeah the tail spike really gets any characters without a sick recovery pretty easily(marth, Mario/Doc , falco, ect.) I bthrow off the edge then jump down with the uair. Works well and basically gets rid of any chance of recovery. And yes Pika does own corneria. I get fast fallers down on the bottom and downsmash the **** outa em.

[EnigmaticCam]

I wouldn't consider Marth as much of a counter. Pikachu's jolt works well on setting up marth for an Up-smash, granted some levels are more effective than others. I would replace Marth with Peach, as her turnips are a b **** to deal with, and everything about her out-prioritizes all of Pikau's moves.

[Tope]

I find it easy to play against Marth, he's just too easily edgeguarded.
The key is the approach like you said.

I find that Peach is too easily usmashed off the top, and she's simply too slow to keep up with Pika, if you can manuever around her with WD's.

Shiek is definately the worst for poor Pika.

Most of the characters can be killed quickly once you get them off the ledge, the problem is getting them off the ledge without taking extreme amounts of damage.

[EnigmaticCam]

Tope: I'm quite curious to see how you manuever around a Peach with WD's. It may just be something I need to practice, but I can't quite do it.

[T Bird]

This thread doesn't seem to be going much of anywhere, there just aren't enough people posting. Sheik=definite counter. Marth=counter as far as I'm concerned. Disjointed hit box kills jolts/ aproach game. if you think b is effective on him you've never played a good one. Yes, it's pretty easy to edgegaurd him, but he's heavy and floaty. It's hard to get him off far enough that he can't just save his second jump then air dodge back on. You're probably dead by then.

[EnigmaticCam]

I'm not saying fighting against marth is a walk in the park. It's exactly as you say; his disjointed hitbox is a pain in the arse. But I just have an easier time fighting him than peach, that's all.

[Tope]

Never fought a good one my ***.

BTW, I may be putting some videos up soon, and I think it would be best if I illustrated some of these counter matchs.

What matchs do you guys want to see?

[EnigmaticCam]

Peach! Please :) I've seen Pikachu fight all the other Top and Upper tier characters. I want to know how to fight Peach

[T Bird]

Tope, you may be an excelent Pikachu, pro level even, but if you can't find a good Peach your vid.s gonna be useless. Not that I'm saying you are a pro, just that I have no idea because I've never heard anything of you or seen anything by you. You do, however post intelligently.

[cablepuff]

jigglypuff is counter by pikachu.

[dark_dragon8]

Never fought a good one my ***.

BTW, I may be putting some videos up soon, and I think it would be best if I illustrated some of these counter matchs.

What matchs do you guys want to see?

Tope, why not just share them all?

[Tope]

Because I have to film them first... :)
Oh, and thanks for the compliment T-Bird. You speak the truth. ;)

I gotta get my buddy Hunkzor to get his camera up and going and then we'll have some matchs.

As for being at pro level, nah not quite to say the least, but I can keep up with most of the guys around here, around here being VA/MD, not any of the real pro's like Azen, and Chu dat, but most of the other ones. I'd say I'm above average.
ANYWAY!

The buddy I always play with plays all 26 characters, and plays them well, he just always destroys me, because I sometimes fall into patterns and am predictable to a point.

I seem to do well against those that don't know my style.

But, I'll put up Peach first.

[EnigmaticCam]

This'll be interesting :)

[Tope]

Oh and yes, Jiggly does take it up the butt from Pika, but only if he can get inside of Bair.

I'd say the character Pikachu counters the most is Captain Falcon.

He's too easily edgeguarded, and if you get a uair tailspike, he's done. Jolts are widely used in this battle as well. The best example I have of this is Darkrain vs VidjoGamer, that video is available on the hub. It's utterly hilarious.

[xvarner]

Yeah Captain Falcon is easily taken care of by pika. The uair eats him for breakfast and the jolts totally stop him in his tracks.

[N64]

Though pika does well against captain falcon (especially considering each's placement on the tiers), I wouldn't consider it a true counter. To me, it seems pretty even, with a slight advantage to pika.

What pika has going for him: Uair does eat falcon's aerials. It's nice for setting up combos (i.e. rising uair out of shield), getting a quick aerial in that sweeps around pika, or the ever-popular uair spike. The spike owns falcon's recovery, and allows for pika to follow up with jolts/nair/bair/etc(his usual edge-guarding options) for a fairly reliable kill. Jolts can hinder falcon's approach game. Usmash, while not deadly in itself, can lead into uair/nair/another usmash/thunder/grab (depending on opponent's %). Pika can combo falcon well, and though his usual upkills are rare in this fight, edge-guarding is generally easier against falcon than other chars.

What captain falcon has going for him: Knee freakin hurts. It kills pika at low percentages, or at least has enough knockback to send pika well off the stage. Nair stretches out farther than all of pika's aerials, and becomes a fairly safe way for falcon to approach. Once he gets inside pika's range, grab->dthrow/uthrow->knee occurs (or dair->knee, if pika gets caught by that). Then captain just follows pika's DI and attempts to land another knee/uair (which, if successful, will usually result in pika's death). Also, pika is outmatched in speed in this match, so his usual quick hit-and-run-esque tactics don't work so well against the captain.

It essentially becomes a match of who can start a combo on the other first, as both characters are quite capable of racking up high percentages on eachother out of single combos. But these are just my observations, so discuss. I believe this matchup deserves some more attention.

[T Bird]

I agree with N64. What he didn't mention specifically, though I know it's implied, is that jolts keep falcon from charging at you blindly from a distance. Considering his speed on the ground that's important, but (and this is the important part) his jumps are near as fast and cover enormous distances. They're also high enough to avoid jolts. then you have the problem of the nairs and fairs as N64 said. Sheild grab won't work on a knee, if connected properly you'll slide back to far and nair just has that range. This is why he mentioned nair as a safe aproach. Pikachu is stuck to trying to aim his nairs so that he lands behind falcon to protect from sheild grabbing, otherwise has rather pathetic aproach game anyway. It's also not terribly easy to get Falcon off the stage to gaurd.

[Tope]

I play this matchup a lot.
I find myself eating Dair a lot more often than I shoud.
However, something I recently noticed is that Pika's smash's own Falcon when used together with his WD and spotdodge.

A true counter, maybe not. I'd put it at 7-3 in favor of Pika.

[xvarner]

yeah Pika has an advantage, but I think its a little bit more in Pikas favor than you think. Pika maybe outmatched in speed but you can spam jolts to totally stop falcon from using it. I like to downsmash a nice bit against falcon because it opens up an air combo,and if your close to the edge spike him then edge guard. I don't find it that hard to get him off the stage at all, since falcon doesn't have any projectiles so again spam the jolt until he comes to you. When he gets to you gust grab him and bthrow then jump out and spike. When i'm in the center og the stage i like to use dThrow to dsmash.Because Falcon is a fast faller he will usually end up right in the middle of it, and if he tries to DI, well the smash reaches a nice ways so it still has a good chance of success.

[RaptorHawk]

You guys forgot to mention how Pika can chainthrow falcon for a good while too.

[Fleur de Lis]

Tope, you may be an excelent Pikachu, pro level even, but if you can't find a good Peach your vid.s gonna be useless. Not that I'm saying you are a pro, just that I have no idea because I've never heard anything of you or seen anything by you. You do, however post intelligently.


Tope is the Pikachu Extraordinaire of VA, so don't mess with him. his fatty chu is dangerous stuff.

Also, by the way, I would listen to what Tope says when talking about fighting Mario, because he fights one of the best Mario's in the country (Meep) on a regular basis, so if Tope says Pikachu has a rough time with Mario, I'd believe it.

[Tope]

^ lol to that.

Yea, I thought I mentioned that you could chain with his uthrow, but looking back I can see that I didn't. I find it somewhat hard to do early in the match, but after about 20% or so, it becomes much easier. Also of note, if you get a grab when CF is at about 100% you can use dthrow instead and follow with and usmash to mix it up a bit.

Jolts do help shut down his ground game a lot, although they do have a lot of lag behind them, the idea of this match IMO is to avoid laggy moves.

[xvarner]

Yeah they do have a bit of lag. But whats better a second of lag or the CF getting you in a grab and setting up a knee? That knee can be deadly even at low damage so I think shuting him down before he starts is a good idea.

[Tope]

Well on FD especially if you're jolts aren't perfectly placed, he can do a full jump Dair, and catch you over half the stage away, not to mention he can just plow through them with his tilts too.
Approaching with Jolts is the way to go, not just random spam I suppose.

[xvarner]

Well yeah you do have to actually try to hit him and not just randomly use the jolts. Any other counters? We have been talking about CF for too long.

[EnigmaticCam]

I'm still waiting for those pikachu vs Peach vids. God, I hate her and those dang turnups. Does anybody have any suggestions for a good stage to fight her on? I thought Corniera was good because she's so floaty, but I find the slopes on the ship are hard to WD on.

[Tope]

At the rate we're going at, you're better off waiting for X-mas.
But there should be a fest at my hosue soon enough, which means at the latest middle of November. :(
Sorry.

Yea, Jiggs get's usmashed off the top at like 60 percent.

Ganon is easily edgeguarded, you just have to play keep away most of the time.

[EnigmaticCam]

Hey, no problem. At the middle of November, I'm getting Mario Kart DS, so I'm already waiting for something :)

[xvarner]

Do you guys have any problems with peach? I seem to have a hard time against a good peach.

[Tope]

Peach is hard to get around it's true, because of her unusual style of fighting. The best thing to do with Peach is stay right oustide her hit area, since luckily she's not one of the fastest characters, the thing to do is try to land an usmash after about 80% to knock her off the stage.

Harassing with Jolts isn't too bad.

[EnigmaticCam]

You can KO-upsmash her without Thunderflipping at 65% on FD. It's even less on Corneria.

Edit: I'm finally learning how to beat Peach. I don't know if this is the best example, but here's how I beat her: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AUQF9P4O

[xvarner]

Well I can't download the vid but the usmash seems to work well. anyone else that Pika has trouble handling?

so far:

gets countered by:
Mario
Shiek
Falco
Marth
ICs?


counters:
Jigglypuff
C. Falcon

[T Bird]

As for up-smash KOing peach at 65%, that seems way to low. Did you charge it at all? I imagine you aren't considering DI. As for Pika countering C. Falcon, that's absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry, I should probably mention why it's ridiculous. Yes, maybe pika has some advantage, but counter? No way. 7 to 3? My goodness no. Your rating system is a bit off if you say "no, it's not a counter, I'd say about 7 to three pika's favor." Seven is over twice three, so in a match between evenly skilled people pika would win over twice as much? That's a counter in my book.
Now when people say "it's hard to get him off the edge" they don't just mean "off the edge, they mean far enough off that he needs his third jump to get back, otherwise he's got a lot of leway and can probably just airdodge past you back on.
I'm being a bit blunt and cranky, sorry if that offended anyone. I got my but kicked all last night by g. dorf and C. Falcon.