Bowser vs Fox

[Gojira]

My friend is starting to pick up on advanced stuff, and I was wondering, what is Bowsers best bet against a good fox?

[Dark_Fire]

My friend is starting to pick up on advanced stuff, and I was wondering, what is Bowsers best bet against a good fox?
nothing, your screwed.

...

I dunno...maybe play a keep away mind game against him? Figure out some new set ups against fox? Abuse the bowser fair? That's all I can really think of...:p

[SMB PORTAL]

Nothing, you have hardly any chance against a fox. If I had no choice I would try to play mind games or something like that to hold him off. But like Dark Fire said Your screwed.

[MagnuM]

Bowser owns Fox as long as you can stay out of getting juggled in the air. I've beaten very good Fox players before with my Bowser just by playing smart (Jarrod, FalseFalco, etc).

Try doing up throw on Fox at low %ages. If he doesn't jump, you can chain the up throw by continuing to run forward and grab. If he jumps you can snout smash him (up aerial). If Fox is at a higher %age, up throw him and follow up with forward aerial and you get your KO. If you can edgeguard Fox properly with down tilts or knuckles or bairs or fairs, he isn't coming back, just like any other opponent Bowser can hurl off the edge. In fact, I play a camping game by the edge against a Fox to try and get some quick and dirty KOs in. The only thing Fox has against Bowser is of course, Up smashes and up airs... which I still haven't found out a way to get out of because Bowser's *** is too big and way too easy to juggle. Getting lagged out or comboed on the ground sucks too, and I guess you would attempt to Fortress out of that one, but the shine does come out quicker, which is pretty annoying. I'm pretty sure Bowser is most immune to the shine spike, because it takes about 2 or 3 of them to KO because he can resist it pretty good.

The advantage still exists with Fox I'd say, but Fox is one of the easiest top/high tier characters to beat up.

[Gojira]

Bowser owns Fox as long as you can stay out of getting juggled in the air. I've beaten very good Fox players before with my Bowser just by playing smart (Jarrod, FalseFalco, etc).

Try doing up throw on Fox at low %ages. If he doesn't jump, you can chain the up throw by continuing to run forward and grab. If he jumps you can snout smash him (up aerial). If Fox is at a higher %age, up throw him and follow up with forward aerial and you get your KO. If you can edgeguard Fox properly with down tilts or knuckles or bairs or fairs, he isn't coming back, just like any other opponent Bowser can hurl off the edge. In fact, I play a camping game by the edge against a Fox to try and get some quick and dirty KOs in. The only thing Fox has against Bowser is of course, Up smashes and up airs... which I still haven't found out a way to get out of because Bowser's *** is too big and way too easy to juggle. Getting lagged out or comboed on the ground sucks too, and I guess you would attempt to Fortress out of that one, but the shine does come out quicker, which is pretty annoying. I'm pretty sure Bowser is most immune to the shine spike, because it takes about 2 or 3 of them to KO because he can resist it pretty good.

The advantage still exists with Fox I'd say, but Fox is one of the easiest top/high tier characters to beat up.

Interesting, What About foxes over smash. My friend tends to be able to juggle that at least 2-3 times before I can recover when im at low %. Is there any quick and easy way to escape the multiple forward smash.

[MagnuM]

The Fortress is pretty much the escape for everything. It only has a 5 frame start up before it starts doing damage. You can use this to get away from bad situations or combos. Even I occassionally forget about this life saving manuever. I believe Bowser's second fastest attack would either be neutral ground A (double fist) or up tilt, which both have 7 frame start ups.

I still haven't really figured out how to get down from the air once Fox throws you up because the opponents that I face never miss their up aerials. I try to DI, but Bowser's just too **** big. The only thing that kind of works is Neutral Air, if it comes out at the right time. I'm actually really starting to like Neutral Air as a whole. If your opponent has the habit of sidestepping you, nair usually has enough hittable frames that they will get hit.

[xpRo]

Well, if you have more practice with advanced techniques than him, you might be able to do it. In a battle though, Bowser has a severe disadvantage against Fox. I would seriously recommend changing characters. There's no way to get around it, Fox is hard to beat with Bowser.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

very hard match if the fox is good and knows how to play bowser, just counterfighting you and u are not gonna win. but to make it close u have to make sure that the fox is dead every time u get him off, if u happen to pull out a win vs a very good fox it will be because ur edge guarding was good.

[Gojira]

So, that brings me to my next question. Why do the F-tilt angled down over a F-Smash? Because When I look around every Bowser says F-Tilt......whats up with this.

[slicedbreadno2]

the ftilt has alot of frames (like a big window of hitting).

[Dark_Fire]

Facts are facts: Fox > Bowser. You REALLY can't just find some way to beat fox as bowser...Fox wins at everything against him. But, when it comes down to it, it's all about the mindgames. If your the better/smarter player, you will probably come out victorious.

But...eventually your friend is going to learn how you play and know when to do what, giving him an even bigger advantage. I'd suggest picking up a character that can compete with Fox a lot better then Bowser...

[Arash]

throw fox over the edge and laugh as he tries to get past bowser's edgeguarding

seriously, bowser can get past fox pretty well and back onto the platform, but all of fox's options can be negated by hanging on the edge and using the rolling edge move to shove him back off

oh and also, uthrow is your friend

[FalseFalco]

Facts are facts: Fox > Bowser. You REALLY can't just find some way to beat fox as bowser...Fox wins at everything against him. But, when it comes down to it, it's all about the mindgames. If your the better/smarter player, you will probably come out victorious.

But...eventually your friend is going to learn how you play and know when to do what, giving him an even bigger advantage. I'd suggest picking up a character that can compete with Fox a lot better then Bowser...

Bowser hate, on his own character specific.

Disgraceful.

My fox loses to MagnuM's bowser. You just need to play smart and not repeat strategies. Double jump klaw is incredible for a shield grab happy fox, sitting there with your shield would seem like a bad idea, but fortress out of shield practically begs you to spam it. Reading a recovery right can make the difference for garbage kills using knuckle and fair, dtilt has a weird and huge hitbox that owns illusion.

[MagnuM]

It'll probably only take a matter of time before you figure my Bowser out too FalseFalco. By the way, we have to record some matches so I can analyze your weak... I mean watch them :)

[FastFox]

I dont even play bowser, and I've beaten Pikachu's with just mind games and offensiveness alone. Dont let the person grab you, or your screwed. Im no bowser pro, but I know that if you go up against someone faster than you, you must think on your feet.

[MagnuM]

What's with all these non-Bowser playing people posting on a Bowser board?

[Omnigamer]

Bowser doesn't do too badly against Fox, IMO. Fox does have a nice set of combos against Bowser, but a smart player can find ways around most of the approaches, or at least tricking Fox into falling for a whirling Fortress. I had a very close match against UmbreonMow's Fox fairly recently, even though I don't practice Bowser (well, I don't really practice anything anymore, just play matches when I can).

[Powda193]

The Fortress is pretty much the escape for everything. It only has a 5 frame start up before it starts doing damage. You can use this to get away from bad situations or combos. Even I occassionally forget about this life saving manuever. I believe Bowser's second fastest attack would either be neutral ground A (double fist) or up tilt, which both have 7 frame start ups.

I still haven't really figured out how to get down from the air once Fox throws you up because the opponents that I face never miss their up aerials. I try to DI, but Bowser's just too **** big. The only thing that kind of works is Neutral Air, if it comes out at the right time. I'm actually really starting to like Neutral Air as a whole. If your opponent has the habit of sidestepping you, nair usually has enough hittable frames that they will get hit.

First of all, i would say that Bowser has a definite shot at winning in this match up.

Bowser needs to use his up throw a lot, use the whirling fortress a lot, and read fox's recovery right. if u really got ur **** together, Bowser can win.

as for getting down from fox's up throw, every once in a while i will pull out the down+b. the lag from the start-up can throw off the fast falling fox. doesnt always work, but i think its fun to try B).

[CO Cheddar]

As a Bowser player, I've been trying for about 2 years now to find a perfect counter for Fox in this matchup. Most of my efforts have resulted in failure, since Fox plays to Bowser's weaknesses so well. Still, it can be done.

As the others have said, use the Whirling Fortress. This move is Bowser's Offensive and Defensive game all rolled into one; it's fast, relatively powerful and can disrupt moves. Even better, I've been able to use the Fortress through a Shield before. I don't know how it works exactly, but try using the WF while lightly holding the Shield button. If it works for you, it'll help a lot in the matchup.

The Koopa king has some other nice moves as well. His Forward A attack is a good one, as it comes out quickly and has some nice knockback to boot. The Down A is a nice one as well; it doesn't have as much priority as the above mentioned move, but it can do nice damage and causes Bowser to crouch for a while. Bowser's Up A attack has its merrits as well; while a bit hard to connect with, it has obscene KOing potential at 100%+. Finally, the Down A Smash is pretty nice if you can find an opportunity to use it. Play around with it a bit; its vacuum affect is good, and it can deal nice damage to opponants caught in it. Just don't use it for a WF substitute, alright?

As for Aerials? Bowser has a couple of nice ones. The Forward A Aerial is used quickly and does nice damage to enemies hit. His Backwards A Aerial, while tricky to use, has great knockback if used correctly. I don't know how it works, exactly, but try hitting with it exactly when he does his back surge. Finally, the Down A Aerial is... well, its a Down A Aerial. Use it whenever you would normally use one.

Bowser has one more trick I'd like to mention here; The Koopa Klaw. It takes a lot less time to use in the air, so if you want to use it, do a short hop and cancel it into a KK for a grab. This takes practice to do, but it's useful if you know how to do it right.

Well, that's about it from me. Just remeber to use the Whirling Fortress a lot for Defense and try to play a more defensive game in this matchup. It's not a perfect strategy, but you might be able to do this if you play your cards right. Good luck.

[The Dark Lord Ganondorf]

Im sorry, I just dont see a bowser EVER beating a decent/proressional fox. Bowser has every conceivable disadvantage against fox. I dont care how good the Bowser is, pound for pound, fox will come out on top. Yeh your only hope would be to mess with his mind and try and get a few up throws in, might be able to juggle him or hit him with an up and A move. Seriosuly though, I dont see you winning.

[DOG!]

Boo.

Koopa Claw chain throw combos up to 30-50% (advanced technique.. very difficult to do). Shield grab short hopped nuetrals. Use the fortress as much as reasonably possible. Throw him off or take advantage of his lightness and edge gaurd him TO DEATH.

Fortress has a pull in type vortex to it.. remember that.

Edge hog unpredictably with the butt bomb (watch your drift).

Good short hopped, shuffled FAIRs are good against the short hopped nuetrals, you have to be fast though.... you'll trade hits at least. Trading hits with bowser is not a good idea, lol.

Play mind games, you need to. Use your fire sometimes unpredicatably. Mix it up.

Press and watch for him to roll behind you, turn and koopa claw.. Rinse and repeat.

Remember it's harder to shine spike the fortress than most recoveries off the edge (I find).. not impossible, and easy enough I guess if you wavedash backwards and shine on the edge *shrug*.. but it really impairs one of fox's best edge guards.

I can't say enough that the fortress is your friend. You can 'tink' a lot.. and I mean a LOT of moves with this.. and just plow through fox for some good damage. Such a good move it is.

Bowser has a better time with fox then a lot of the other 'better' characters. *cough* Marth *cough*.


Fox is still fox.. and in the right hands an assassin. But bowser can win this. It's not outright ownage by any means if your bowser is at the level it needs to be.

[Shy Guy]

^ Best. First. Post. Ever.

I mostly agree with everything you said and you make a point: Bowser isn't as bad against Fox as logic would dictate. However, I disagree on the Bowser Bomb. That move is useless, even in the right hands.

[DOG!]

heh, thank you *bow*

You know.. I would tend to agree that it is a useless move... but it is unpredicatble.. lol.

I'll Retract that a bit though, your right... the bowser bomb is, even in the right hands, dangerous at best heh.

But other than that, I agree and tend to think bowser is better against fox in practice than seems to make sense. ^^

[TheRedMarth]

Bowser's Butt Bomb to edge grab is not wholly useless. It's worth using in two situations:

1. When you're decending way above the ledge against fox. The sudden increase in speed actually does have an unpredictability to it, as long as you don't ***** it so much that they get used to it.

2. When you've just been knocked across the level. You just hit your butt bomb and catch the ledge as your flying away. Best to just avoid the chances of getting edgegaurded all together.

[MagnuM]

Is it good to airdodge with Bowser to try and get away from being juggled or are you pretty much screwed?

[FireKP1]

My advice against a good FOX with Bowser is to hope for a miracle

[MagnuM]

Fox/Falco gets pwned by Bowser's moves though. Their knockback seems to go a lot further along with a lower trajectory. When their percentage gets high, hit a sweetspotted bair, a decent fair, or a big fist in the face, thanks to Bowser's tree-trunk arms (Koopa Knuckle). As long as you edge guard well, you can usually get the KO. I like using bair as an edgeguard more than the fair, just because of the much lower trajectory of your opponent if you sweetspot it. If you are going to use the Knuckle, just make sure to angle your punches well. Patience is the key.

However, today I found out the hard way that it is nearly impossible to beat a highly technical Fox that can constantly waveshine into grabs or upsmashes, or just throw Bowser up and proceed to juggle his big fat *** all day long, never missing, even if you DI. Big characters are just so much more easier to juggle. I guess Fox is top tier for a reason having inescapable combos like that. Getting completely lagged out the whole match is extremely frusterating. I was just sitting there pressing Up + B constantly (Fortress, Bowser's fastest attack) during the waveshine combo hoping for a miracle, but it's hopeless when the Fortress has a 5 frame start up and the shine has what, 1 or 2 frame start up? Fox is just way too fast and way too powerful with the **** upsmash and flip kicks.

Bowser can still win this matchup over Fox, it just takes a lot more skill from the Bowser player. Superior mindgames, impeccable edgeguarding and patience, and making good decisions are the only thing that can tilt the odds in your favour. I would give the odds 2:1 in Fox's favour in this matchup. However, it is probably Bowser's easiest Top Tier opponent.

Advantage Fox

[Kevvviiinnn]

If you are good at edge-guarding, I suggest you do so. Knuckle really does pwn against them, and yes, u-throw is your friend. Try to catch them in the fire once in a while, and sweetspot the b-air when possible. You could also chainthrow the Koopa Knuckle to deal out some rather high damage, but I suggest the b-throw at 50% damage or so. Fox does have the advantage in this matchup, but it is very possible for Bowser to pick up the win.

[Shadowfox025]

what if u fight a fox that always dodges out of the way. what if fox use speed over your brawn and smarts. for magnum

[Arash]

well if taken literally, then not only does bowser lose, but everyone else that plays the game loses

i mean cmon, fox that always evades? that means he never gets hit, not even once

[TheRedMarth]

Is it good to airdodge with Bowser to try and get away from being juggled or are you pretty much screwed?"

With bowser, if you're in a situation in wish you need to dodge an aerial from fox, just use the nair. You'd be suprised how much pain that little move can save you. Air dodging is worthless with Bowser and the nair beats practically everything fox has in the air.

"what if u fight a fox that always dodges out of the way. what if fox use speed over your brawn and smarts?"

Fox can spot dodge Bowser's fair, but not the shffl'd nair, or the whirling fortress, the dair (Don't use this one ever although), or the dsmash. If your playing a highly dodgy fox, fall back on those manuevers.

BTW, "Dog!" is my Rooommate. The reason he knows so much about fighting fox vs. Bowser is because he plays fox and he was just like "I just listed everything you own my *** on." :)

[Shadowfox025]

just play smart and dont fall behind. try using some fast recovery moves he has and you'll do ok

[Armygeddon Bomb]

Have you ever tried to grab fox before he gets to attack you?

[Kevvviiinnn]

Have you ever tried to grab fox before he gets to attack you?

Yes but if you miss the lag will leave you wide open. Try your best to get him off the ledge by shffling aerials, shield grabbing, etc. and then just edgeguard him.

[Armygeddon Bomb]

Bowser has two different grabs. The Z grab and the side B grab. The side B grab can either just hit Fox or grab him. It is also fast.

[Kevvviiinnn]

Also known as the Koopa Klaw. :)

[HoChiMinhTrail]

this matchup is jsut a *****, when u play fox players like cunning or eddie who dont miss their l cancels into shines, which means no fortress and bs 0-90% or death combos on the poor turtle. once your off you shouldnt come back, but still playin smart can help u not get owned so much, and the f tilt and back air while fox is off the ledge is rather good, he too should not come back.

[AngeloBangelo]

If the Fox you're playing is any good at SHFFLing into shines... You can just lay the controller down. It's impossible to get out of good Fox combos, and it's tough to combo a Fox unless you're a very good Bowser playing a mediocre Fox. Just my opinion...

[HoChiMinhTrail]

haha both of you are from IL, ill have to own both of you up one of these days to show u whats what wit bowser.

[AngeloBangelo]

Definitely! I'm looking for Smashers in the area since I play the same 6 kids all the time -_-
Feel free to send me a PM with an AIM name or anyway to get ahold of you.