Would Roy be higher tier if Marth wasn't in the game?

[kaevne]

I have a simple question. Would Roy be higher tier if Marth wasn't in the game? Besides the one spot he would move up because Marth is higher than him or the spots he would move up because Marth is no longer a counter/better character/you know what I mean?

It seems like a lot of Roy's lower tierage is based on his comparisons to Marth. He's slower by a few frames in, I think, all of their parallel moves. But his DED is more useful. I feel like the back room/smash community placed Roy where he is because of how he plays in comparison to Marth.

Just a simple question, not much to explain I'm sure it's been in the back of a lot of Roy players' minds.


edit: On the other hand, what if Roy was the superior character? What if Marth was really named....Garth? And, somehow, Garth sucked and was slower than Roy? How much artificially higher would Roy be than he truly(very obtuse use of the word) is because of being compared to....Garth...?

[Kadiev]

Ummm no Roy is still the same character therefore stays where he is.

[Rebel581]

He moves one placement up because Marth is under him now. He's not one of the people who has an incredibly hard time with Marth. Those people miight move up, but not Roy.

[Kadiev]

and if there was "Garth" as you said Roy still would but higher in the teir list a little. You don't understand that Roy is still the same character with or without Marth. Hes slow, has some very great lag at the end of moves etc..

[FalseFalco]

Actually I completley agree with the moving up idea. IF marth werent in the game everyone would be fascinated by roys moves more than marths and I DO believe that he is compared to marth frequently like most clones. But technically his match ups would ultimately decide his tier fate which would leave him where he is.

Id like to add that i completley ignored that garth nonsense.

[white peachy]

yeah and who knows, maybe with no marth, ken picks up roy instead, and everyone looks at the way roy can be played differently instead of marth. (hypothetical obviously, and i still don't think roy as a character has the potential to be played like a top marth)

[kaevne]

I just believe that roy is compared to his clone a lot more than, say, falco is compared to fox.

[kaevne]

Originally posted by Kadiev
and if there was "Garth" as you said Roy still would but higher in the teir list a little. You don't understand that Roy is still the same character with or without Marth. Hes slow, has some very great lag at the end of moves etc..

However, I believe you are assuming that the tier list is "perfect" that it is the "true" tier list and that every single character has been placed exactly where he/she belongs.

I believe this is only the 6th(correct me if i'm wrong) tier list to come out? Also note that the lists were created by players, people. People are in no way perfect. I'm asking everyone else's opinion on whether a single character's placement, roy, was corrupted by excessive comparison to his clone by the back room and the rest of the community, since the back room does talk to the community.

[Rebel581]

Originally posted by kaevne
However, I believe you are assuming that the tier list is "perfect" that it is the "true" tier list and that every single character has been placed exactly where he/she belongs.

I believe this is only the 6th(correct me if i'm wrong) tier list to come out? Also note that the lists were created by players, people. People are in no way perfect. I'm asking everyone else's opinion on whether a single character's placement, roy, was corrupted by excessive comparison to his clone by the back room and the rest of the community, since the back room does talk to the community.
No, Roy just sucks. He has no matchups in his favor at all. Maybe Fox at most but if Fox is played right Roy can't catch him.

[stuntcuum3571]

Roy doesnt suck Reb, dont be so bitter. If Marth did not exist Roy would have near the same placement. His aerials still would have very lil knockback, he'd have the same crap recovery, and CC would still own his offensive.

[Infamous]

i have noting to say about this, except that i just really dont like marth, but i dont know why i just dont like him

[FalseFalco]

Originally posted by kaevne
I just believe that roy is compared to his clone a lot more than, say, falco is compared to fox.

Thats because theres such a gap between marth and roy. Fox and Falco are close to eachother in matchups, Marth and Roy aren't.

[Rebel581]

Originally posted by stuntcuum3571
Roy doesnt suck Reb, dont be so bitter. If Marth did not exist Roy would have near the same placement. His aerials still would have very lil knockback, he'd have the same crap recovery, and CC would still own his offensive.
He does though >_> I'm sort of convinced actually that he is the very best in the game because out of all of the bad things he has going for him he's still middle tier. So you must be the best in the game to have so many bad things going for your and still be middle tier. Otherwise he'd be with Pichu. Complete BS logic, yes, I agree. I think of really weird stuff when I'm bored.

And who says I'm bitter. I still love Roy as a character, but he sucks. Like a Bowser player can say the same thing about his character. Sometimes doesn't even know why he likes the character and still just likes them.

Plus FE is teh r0><0rz! FE > j00.

[stuntcuum3571]

That last statement is true. I talked a lil trash about FE, and FE busted into my house, beat me up, stole my GF, and molested my goldfish.

[Infamous]

wait, im lost whats happening now ???

[Rebel581]

Originally posted by Infamous
wait, im lost whats happening now ???
I'm lost too. In the name of GameFAQs, I say to thee, 500 TOPIC'D!!!!!!!

[MarthMaster2]

Roy doesn't suck! He is one of the best characters in the game if your good and if not he is definitely a fun character to use in adventure and versus modes. The gap between roy and marth isn't so big these are the major differences that i know of :
Marth is faster than roy but only by a little.
Marth's jumps are higher especially his dolphin slash.
All of Roy's specials have a higher damage rating and a flaming touch.
Other than that there isn't much difference. Roy is my favorite character and i win most of my battles easily using him.

Ps: Don't comment about my name because I couldn't come up with a good Roy username so I went with my 2nd favorite.

[SonicZeroX]

Actually the gap between Marth and Roy is quite big, REALLY big actually. Marth has amazing arieals while Roy's are par at best. Roy is very prone to crouchers while Marth is hardly hindered as much. Marth has his sweetspot at the end of his sword therefor making his range "longer". Technically it's not longer but by having the sweet spot at the end means you can keep you're opponent far away AND deal maximum damage/ Knockback at the same time. Meanwhile Roy's sweetspot is in the middle of his blade, so he does not gain these advantages. There are many other things such as Marth is floaty, Roy is not, makign Marth harder to combo. Marth has a better wavedash, a better grabbing range etc. Roy generally has better specials but as strange as this may sound, Dolphin slash does more damage than blazer if sweetspotted. So yea Marth>Roy. Sorry to be off topic.

[MarthMaster2]

Their gap isn't that big! Roy rules! All that "sweetpoint" stuff is bull. You just hit them with your sword there is no sweetpoint. The blazer is way better than the dolphin slash unless your goin for high jump, but there isn't much diference between the heights of their b ups. My conclusion Roy>Marth.

[Sloth]

Erm. So, marthmaster2, are you saying there are no sweetspots? if that is so.. Maybe you should just be quiet and learn to play the game before making such a comments.

Blazer has its uses - reverse blazer on some characters for the instant KO - Gives you a longer horizontal recovery. But it isn't very good.
But Dolphin Slash comes out quicker, gains more height, and can also be used to KO people at higher %.
Dolphin Slash > Blazer. Unless its against jiggly.

Any good Roy player knows how crap he is and can easily admit it. Especially when comparing Roy to Marth. Roy just isn't good enough. SonicZero has already mentioned a lot of the reasons.

His place, even if Marth was removed, would stay the same.

[Yuna]

What kind of a question is that? Of course he wouldn't be higher just because Marth wasn't in the game. Now, if Marth weren't in the game, the entire tierlist would shift slightly. Top Tier would now include Peach (especially in PAL, it would be highly obvious), characters that he counters would maybe move up a bit and characters who were high up because they did well against him (Yoshi is considereed a Marthcounter) would maybe move down slightly.

However, Roy is kinda inbetween. He can hold his own against Marth, but he neither counters him nor does he get crushed by him. Roy would pretty much remain where he is today.

[MarthMaster2]

I agree with fallenangel. Marth's counter would move down slightly and those opponents who get smoked by Marth would slightly go up. Roy on the other hand would stay where he is. One question, I know peach is good but is she really a top tier.
The tier list isn't nearly perfect. Over half of what effects a battle is a players skill so in my opinion the rank of each character just depends on what the players habits, skill, and specialties are.

[stuntcuum3571]

With the exception of Sheik(broken) and fox(God), Peach is the best charatcer in the game.

[Yuna]

stuntcuum has a point. Sheik is just broken, Fox is God Tier, Peach is like Mario, only better. She doesn't rape many characters, she doesn't get raped by many and she does well to less well against the rest.

Peach is really good if you use her full potential, though she's too mindgame based. Technichal Peaches won't get you anywhere. Mindgaming Peaches is the only true way >_>'. That's why she's hard to play at a high level, because you need really good mindgames.

Peach is exactly the same in NTSC as in PAL. However, in PAL, Sheik, Fox, Marth and Falco have all been weakened. :D

[Ky Kiske]

If Marth weren't in the game, Roy would be on a higher tier if he had the properties of Marth's aerials and didn't have a sweet spot for his sword.

[Infamous]

ok yes he would go up in the tier list, but so woulds everybody else who is under marth. Roy is more about power then comboing, except in the air, then he has almost no power. Marth no on the other hand has some power, but alot easier to combo with, and better ariel moves. with roy you can combo people, you just either kill them faster or mess up, because in general it is harder to combo with him do to his knock back. sweet spots, once you have mastered mRTHS SWEETSPOT, IT SHOULD BE EASIER TO HIT WITH, BECASUE YOU CAN BE FARTHER AWAY THAN ROY'S, which is at the middle of his sword all the way to the handle, BUT IF YOU JUST START AS EITHER CHARACTER, IT IS EASIER TO HIT WITH ROYS SWEET SPOT(sorry about caps lock). but i think due to roy falling faster, it might be harder to send him flying(correct me if im wrong), but it also makes him easier to chain grab, and combo. roy can kill faster though, due tto his knockback, and its alot easier to hit people with his upsmash and kill/do damage to people, than marths becasue with marth you have to hit them with the very tip, with roy they can be at the tip or a on the ground, and it will do decent-killing damage. roy has a lnger reach wit his sword, but marth has a longer grab. roys a little slower than marth, but he makes up for that in power. me im a roy user, i think both have their strengths and weknesses, but i still like roy better, if you know how to use a character, then you can be just as good as anybody else, it just might take so time. now you guys decide which you like better, hope that i could have been some help in decidemg this argument
(i meant knockback, not power sorry )

[Rebel581]

Need to go to school so can't read last 5 posts and be able to respond. Roy sucks, deal with it, he's still very fun to play. Dolphin Slash and Blazer it doesn't matter how much damage they do because they aren't used for attacking most of the time. Blazer is more useful for attacking because Roy falls faster and has the reverse blazer. But other then that Roy doesn't have much going for him. He should probably be lower. Maybe not. Tier list doesn't matter anyways.

EDIT: Finally got time.
Roy is more about power then comboing
^_^ Roy is more about tech chasing, mindgames, and comboing IMO. He doesn't have enough power to rely on power. You have to play the game smart. Which is why I think I need to stop sleeping while playing this game. I think my Roy's getting worse 0_o

[Infamous]

interesting

[$sD]

even if marth wasent on the game
roy would still be at the same tier
more ppl would prly play him but it really wouldnt make a diffrence

[RoyPikachuMario]

Originally posted by MarthMaster2
Over half of what effects a battle is a players skill so in my opinion the rank of each character just depends on what the players habits, skill, and specialties are. You said it. Marth isn't really top tier, he's just there because he's popular and everyone wants to be good with him.

[Rebel581]

Originally posted by RoyPikachuMario
You said it. Marth isn't really top tier, he's just there because he's popular and everyone wants to be good with him.
I really want to see you go to a tournament and get raped. He's there because he is good. If he wasn't in top he'd be at the very top of upper (upper is the one below top right? and then comes high).

[RoyPikachuMario]

MarthMaster's reasons for saying Roy is better are, IMO, better than your reasons for saying Marth is better.

[Rebel581]

Originally posted by RoyPikachuMario
MarthMaster's reasons for saying Roy is better are, IMO, better than your reasons for saying Marth is better.
That's where you're wrong. It's because your opinion doesn't matter. MarthMaster completely disregarded the sweetspot, did not mention a single one of Marth's strengths, and didn't even mention Roy's strengths. He just said Roy > Marth to tell the truth. The stuff he did mention Marth had better or it didn't matter. Overall, don't compare every move to eachother.

To sum it up, I'd like you to quote what reasons MarthMaster gave to say Roy is better.

[n00b]

RoyPikachuMario, do you think characters are ranked WITHOUT assuming that the characters being compared are at their full potential? Or do you think that Roy is better than Marth, but Marth is higher tier because more pros use Marth, while only scrubs use Roy, and therefore the tier listing is wrong? o_O

And apparently, you don't seem to care for any facts or reasoning when it comes to comparisons, so how about this?

Marth > Roy

And by the way, I play Roy, but I can admit that Marth is better than Roy.

[RoyPikachuMario]

Originally posted by MarthMaster2
Roy doesn't suck! He is one of the best characters in the game if your good and if not he is definitely a fun character to use in adventure and versus modes. The gap between roy and marth isn't so big these are the major differences that i know of :
All of Roy's specials have a higher damage rating and a flaming touch.
Roy is my favorite character and i win most of my battles easily using him.


Their gap isn't that big! Roy rules! All that "sweetpoint" stuff is bull. You just hit them with your sword there is no sweetpoint. The blazer is way better than the dolphin slash unless your goin for high jump, but there isn't much diference between the heights of their b ups. My conclusion Roy>Marth.

Rebel, what do you mean he doesn't have much going for him besides Blazer? Of course he does. All of his B moves are good in a pretty big way, which makes him an ideal upper half character. Roy > other lower half characters and a few upper half characters (not including Mario, Peach, and Jiggly).

[ArC_man]

All that "sweetpoint" stuff is bull.

Go to training mode and go to battlefield. Set the dummy on the platform and forward smash it from the ground floor or the stage with both marth and roy.

Notice that marth's attack goes "boom" and the dummy is sent flying 5 billion miles away
Then notice that roy's attack goes "wack" and the dummy moves nowhere while taking minimal damage.

If you can't notice the differences, gtfo.

[Rebel581]

Originally posted by RoyPikachuMario
Rebel, what do you mean he doesn't have much going for him besides Blazer? Of course he does. All of his B moves are good in a pretty big way, which makes him an ideal upper half character. Roy > other lower half characters and a few upper half characters (not including Mario, Peach, and Jiggly).
0_o what? I never said anything about Blazer. And just because your B moves are good doesn't make you a good character. And why do you quote two posts that weren't made by me and then call me out. The information in those posts is either completely wrong or completely irrelevent.

[Roy Ranevski]

Guys why are you wasting your cyber breath talking to people who obviously are uneducated in the matter. This is not a flame, but anyone who states that 'there are no sweetspots' or 'there aren't many differences between Marth and Roy' or 'Roy has more power' or any other of the ridiculous statements made clearly don't know what they're talking about.

Marth is better than Roy for a multitude of reasons that you could find with the forums search function and 30secs of your time. Roy isn't as bad as he's made out to be (he's not like hella bottom tier) but he is in the bottom half, and definatly far below Marth.

To answer the quesiton of the thread; Removing one character form the game will never drastically change the tier rankings. The only instance where this would happen is if you had a great character that was really good, but lost terribly to another really popular character. Then and only then would you see a drastic tier jump if that character was removed, allowing the original character to reign supreme.

Roy probably would be more POPULAR though. All sword fanboys (like myself :laugh:) use either Link, Young Link, Marth, or Roy. The weighting is definatly in Marths favour, and if he were to disappear then a lot of Marth users would probably migrate to Roy, because whilst his fighting style IS extremely different to Marth it's a lot closer than either of the Link's is.

[FalseFalco]

With the exception of Sheik(broken) and fox(God), Peach is the best charatcer in the game.

What about falco(trigger happy)?