raising the bar

[Jasona]

WTF... no1 seems to FF when they MC. Every1 I've ever fought lacks this simple enhancement. Obviously I'm not talking about FFing a SH into a MC, but someday someone will get it. Back to whats important, samus needs all the speed she can get.

So come on guys, RAISE THE BAR... stop being so slow in the air and FF those MCs. I don't want to hear about how you'd rather SHMC, thats almost as slow as not FFing a normal jump, MC.

[Fleeced]

Hey, I try, but i just end up getting the homing missile. Not everyone is as talented and fast as you, but we're trying. Also, what was that thing The Cape said Oro said "if you concentrate on technical things you won't focus on mindgames" or something.

[Jasona]

"if you concentrate on technical things you won't focus on mindgames"
is about as useful as
"if you don't focus on technical skill, then you won't have mind games"

What is useful about those two is that you should put equal time into technical skill and mind games because each relies on the other.

[Yikodi]

I have to agree with Jasona on this one. Personally, I find it easier to FF then to SH and it flows better for me to follow up with another missle, a dash, or whatever. Samus absolutely needs all the speed she can get, especially against a good sheik, fox, or even falco.

As for the whole tech skills to mind games thing, it's not that hard. I'm not saying you have to try and WD across the field or do some crazy manuver, but just lay down a bomb when there's space between you and your opponent or do a single WD to move out of the way of their move. The tech skills are easy enough to figure out with the right amount of time spent figuring them out. The mind games are the tough part.

[UndrDog]

you just have to practice your technical skills until it becomes second nature. Once you do you can work it into your mindgames. There is no such thing as focusing to much on technical skill.

Look at Fumi. Best Yosh and its all technical stuff. Same with WES.

Jasona is the only person I've seen FFMC. I'll have to check some of WES' vids and check if he does. I kinda find it hard to believe that he dosnt though I dont recall ever seeing him do so. =/

[The Cape]

First off Oro said, "If you concentrate too much on technical skill you wont have the mind power to work on mindgames." Or something like that.

Second of all I can see both arguements and since I dont play Samus and dont really like her, I will leave it to Jasona to play her his way.

[HugS]

I have officially decided to Lower the bar. From now on i will Double jump for 1 missle without fast falling.

Just out of spite.

Actually i have never even thought about fast falling my missle. I just dont find it that necessary. I will mess with it. Probably because i have never known that a FF MC is faster than a SH MC. You sure about it though? I'll see how it goes.

And mind games > tech skill when it comes to samus. Not saying tech skill doesnt matter. But bothering to learn shffmc just to get a little more tech under your belt rather than focusing on some new mind games isn't a better choice. I know i know, you can perfect your tech skill so that you do not have to even worry about it while you play, but choose the techs u learn carefully. L cancelling and Wavedashing is a given must learn tech. Im talking about other more complicated things. That is just my opinion though.

[UndrDog]

You're right HugS. SHFFMC and other near impossible techs can take a big chunk outta ya practice and give less time to perfect your mind games. but if you ever learn to SHFFMC...

though the FFMC is a great move and can send missles lower then the stage. no more Jiggy, Kirby and Sheiks ducking your them.

[Jasona]

I looked at http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Samus_frames_2.2.05.txt
and concluded that the "FF air time: 49 frames" is equal to the normal jump, FFMC, the "SH air time: 55 frames" is equal to the SHMC, the "Air time: 69 frames" is equal to the normal jump, MC and the "SH FF air time: 38 frames" is equal to the SHFFMC.

I've had this at the bottom of the samus basics thread for a while now
--- Missle Facts ---
SHFFMC - 38 frames
normal jump, FFMC - 49 frames
stationary smash missle (missle on frame 22) - 49 frames
SHMC - 55 frames
normal jump MC - 69 frames

I don't put all of my faith into that link. For example, it says that the smash missle comes out, in the air, after 15 frames, but I can do it in the 10 frame window after I FF the SH.

EDIT: I agree that the SHFFMC is really hard to do, but I disagree that it will never be worth learning. I don't put any time into it because I still don't have the basics (I can't l-cancel, tech, sheild, WD outta my sheild, DI, or CC) and that seems alot more important than a tech that would take all of my free time to learn/ be consistant at (SHFFMCing).

EDIT#2: I got 5th at that philly tournament on the 19th, but I lack so much basic knowledge that I can only justify my placement by luck and by saying that I played as samus. Samus's full potential has yet to be actualized, but FFing your MCs is a step in the that direction.

[PhillCollins]

FFMC just doesn't seem to fit my style though. When I play I've got an ebb and a flow and anything that breaks me out of my groove is only going to cause me problems. In the middle of a samus short hop feels like home. If my oponent doesn't break my fighting style I'm a smooth operator and there's just nothing to worry about. But when they do break me out of groove, thats when my knee starts shaking and I have to dig further into my repitoir.

I don't have really have multiple styles that I'm as afluent with. If I'm to take my girl to the next level I'll need to do that. But just because someone does a SHMC instead of a FFMC means verry little. There's alot of style here and there's not perfect way to play.

[MLRS]

You can't trust that frame data at all, Samus' decent is slightly slowed when she fires a missle. Atleast fastfall decent is, not certain on non fastfall. Oh, and i'm with HugS on spiting you by using missles worse.

[Aftermath]

I've heard from a reputable source (skypal people, Isai once) that a missile slightly slows you in whatever fall you are doing, FF or normal. so by this there should still be 6 frames between the two techniques. Not on topic, but i'd assume that the missile also slows you ascent slightly. But keep in mind the effect on your speed the missile has is pretty negligible.

I've been trying to work the ffmc into my game, but i really never feel like full hopping to shoot a missile, it leaves me feeling vulnerable somehow, even though i'm actually in the air for a shorter time. I'll try to incorporate it in more, but the thing that bugs me about it is that on platformed levels, this can actually be worse, since you'll full hop and land on the platform (most of the time it looked like i should have overshot it, but i managed to edge cancel the missile, which didn't help me at all) and making it harder to use more liberally in place of shmc unless you're playing FD. What do you do to get around this problem on platformed levels (especially ys and bf) Jasona?

[UndrDog]

wouldnt the FF just send you through the platforms? I know this is a pretty simple solution so I'm assuming I misunderstood your post CC.

[Aftermath]

yeah, you did. If you FF a MC, technically you are still in the animation even though the missile has not come out. Now, i don't know if you ever noticed, but while you are in some sort of animation other than regular falling or something very similar to that, the animation will be canceled and go to a lag sequence or go to a landing sequence (as it does with the missile animation). Because of this fact while missiling you cannot siply go through the platform while ffmc'ing.

Yeah, no offense, had fun with that. Anyway, yeah i was saying it's when you are ffmc'ing on a platformed level. I found that the platforms get in the way frequently, and sometimes i'll hit them by accident or when it looks like i shouldn't (samus' shoulder = leg??). So i was asking what other people use to get arounf this or if they just sh missiles on platform levels like i do, or if there's some magic way to avoid it well.

[Yikodi]

Actually, UndrDog, I think it's a little trickier than that. With one full hop, your given little time to FF and then get the missle off. I played around with this for a little while with a platform in the middle on Battlefield and Yoshi's Story and it seems as though the split second after you FF is the ideal time to fire the missle. Otherwise, it doesn't work. With the platform in the way, the FF is cut short the second you try to fire the missle. As a matter of fact, this is the case no matter what attack you try. The platform simply messes up the FFMC. Kinda annoying, if you ask me.

[UndrDog]

yeah I just tested it. at times i just went through it, but other times I wouldnt be able to get the missle off in time. good to know though.

[Jasona]

So missles slow you down... that would explain why I can SHFFMC and would also tell me that every other kind of MC is slower than I originally thought. On the plus side, it encourages me to time the MC as close to the ground as possible, to avoid as much of the lag as I can.

As for platformed levels, I don't have a problem FFing through them to MC. If you try to MC close enough to the ground so that you can FF through the platform before you start the MC, then you shouldn't have a problem. Unless you try a homing, then you could have a problem.

[grayfox]

I am sick of hearing about this SHFFMC. It's like Fox shooting 2 lasers in one jump, who cares!? It has little use and is not worth the input. Wes uses SWD so you must put it into your game! >_> Situational stuff that isn't needed at all.

With Samus all that is NEEDED tech wise is l cancels, techs, wavedashes, missile canceling, grappling the edge. The rest is to either show off or very situational.

I don't fast fall that much and i only short hop by mistake heh, call me a crap Samus if you want but it's simply not needed for Samus.

[Gekigarion]

It's definitely situational, as are a lot of of moves, but in the long run if you are both equal in skill the winner will be the person who has that trump card for that situation that you don't.

Although that bit of a second barely fazes me, in the hands of a master (a.k.a. someone who has the technical ability of a computer) it can win the game. Same goes for a lot of things.

And the SDWD is actually quite useful...try firing a charged orb from across the map and then zooming over past your orb and grabbing them, then holding them while they get smacked by the orb.

[grayfox]

If it is an even match then something like a SWD won't be the desider. In the end it all comes down to how smart you are. A person who can only l cancel but is super smart could easily beat an idiot who can SWD 100%. Just imagine if that super smart guy could do all the tech stuff. Tech stuff is useless unless you are smart, all this tech stuff is really not needed. The more the tech the better, thats a given but really, your game isn't desided by your success rate of the SWD.

On that SDWD thing you said, i doubt that would work. It's fast but your opponent would have to be super slow to not move out of the way of a Samus sliding, a charge shot coming and then a frigging grab.

[UndrDog]

actaully, if you can master the SHFFMC it could prove just as useful as SHFFLing with Falco. if you could manage to advance with it I think it would not only be useful but revultionary with Samus.

[grayfox]

The lasers for Falco are good because:
they come out at a very fast rate.
they stun the opponent and make them unable or hinder movement.
they are easy to SHL.

Missiles for Samus are bad because:
they come out at a slow rate.
they knock the opponent back and are reasonably easy to avoid.
they are hard to SHFFMC.

It's not quite the same is it?

[UndrDog]

and those are the same reasons not to use missles at all. and wouldnt this to make it insanely hard to recover with missles coming at you at the same pace as Falco's laser spam? (note I'm not talking about SHFFLing).

oh and no, the SWD can be very useful. I've used it on many occasions and yes it was the deciding factor in the match.

[grayfox]

Originally posted by UndrDog
and those are the same reasons not to use missles at all. and wouldnt this to make it insanely hard to recover with missles coming at you at the same pace as Falco's laser spam? (note I'm not talking about SHFFLing).

oh and no, the SWD can be very useful. I've used it on many occasions and yes it was the deciding factor in the match.


If missiles were coming at you at the same rate as Falcos laser in edge guarding it wouldn't make a **** difference. You are still only covering the area that is eye level, you may as well stand still and shoot missiles. Missiles could never be as good as Falcos lasers even if they could be done at the same speed AS THEY HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AFFECT. That was my point in my last post. Those are not the same reasons to not use missiles at all as missiles are ment to be used differently to Falcos lasers.

Tell me how you used the SWD as a deciding factor in a match please.

[UndrDog]

not all the missles are at eye level. some actually go as low as through the stage floor. thus coming out through the edge.

rather you just watch the matches yourself. I'll check and see if The Cape has any of the matches up that he recorded.

[Aftermath]

Originally posted by grayfox
If missiles were coming at you at the same rate as Falcos laser in edge guarding it wouldn't make a **** difference. You are still only covering the area that is eye level, you may as well stand still and shoot missiles. Missiles could never be as good as Falcos lasers even if they could be done at the same speed AS THEY HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AFFECT. That was my point in my last post. Those are not the same reasons to not use missiles at all as missiles are ment to be used differently to Falcos lasers.

Tell me how you used the SWD as a deciding factor in a match please.

0.o someone sounds like me.

SWD deciding match (improbably but it could happen): cf shffls a knee at you (999%) on the edge, you swd out of the way and shffmc for fun. cf ff's to his death.

yeah, only way i could think of, also could go for marth and his dair.

I wonder how many times "missiles are like lasers" and "NO THEY AREN'T" has been argued....

Missiles are projectiles, so are lasers, they both shoot at a certain speed, they fly in a direction.

Beyond that i can't think of any relevant similarities (not saying any of that was relevant).

shffm could be used well, but i mean, spamming missiles only gets you so far. While a missile every 46 frames (38 shffm air time + 4 land lag + 4 jump lag) gets you a bit farther than just shm, it won't make you win every match. I think the true usefulness of missiles is edgeuarding, but they usually need to be timed for the person falling. On the stage, missiles are just distractions to limit the opponent and make them fall into your real combos. Missiles are nice, but nothing to get really excited over.

[HugS]

Grayfox is wrong one one thing, If missles were as fast as falco's lasers we'd have a banned character people. A strong attack like that moving that fast would rape, doesnt matter how low it is. Thats like saying "if fox's laser were as strong as falcos, it WOULDNT MAKE A DIFFERENCE". But that type of thing would get that character banned.

But undrdog, grayfox is right on one thing. Missles can't be used like falco's laser. It is actually WORSE to move in with missles. It is better to move away or stand still. Moving in gets you close which means it is easier for them to take advantage of all the time you spend in the air after doing the top missle on the double jump missle.

But still, double missles kick ***, just gotta use them in the right way.

[UndrDog]

true, but you're really not in the air for that long with the SHFFMC, and you land with no lag. and the main purpose of using it to close in is so that you can keep them on thier toes. I dont suggest using it get up in your opponents face, just enough to close the gap. not to mention it would pwn anybody who has to recover from under the stage. if you do it right you can send a missle through the stage and out through the edge.

[Aftermath]

ok, how about you stop saying all this crap about how missiles are good because of the possibility of shffm. they still are a 46 frame loop, far longer than a falco shb, so they will never be used in the same way. the main purpose of using it close in is to get a grab off or sh a sex kick/fair at the person, not really to jump in and missile them endlessly, that gets you killed.

And about missiling in the stage, ask any samus how many times they've done this, you 'll get answers varying from about 0 to 3. Ask them how they did it, they'll say "oh, i mc'd and the missile went in the floor.' real specific huh? sounds like they know how to reciprocate it too. I've seen nor heard of any frame data on how to time this and it most likely comes from when you are being hit or ff at a weird time and get a missile that needs to come out at 16.45 frames, but smash rounds everything it down, so you shoot the missile a *tiny* bit early but smash counts this as your landing phase. You may notice samus' hand is on te ground when she lands and that the missile comes from one of her hands (the one with the big green gun barrel), so lo and behold, it's under the stage. That's the most logical explanation i can think for it (smash and it's crazy 1.99999 = 1), but as for reproducing such results: it's not happening anytime soon without some kind of breakthrough on how to time it.

Undr, most of your posts seem to be something like "missiles are useful because of <reasons stated in previous posts by multiple users>, shffmc's potential, and being able to fire missiles below the stage.

HugS, i don't understand how to use double missile, i can do it whenever, but only time i can use it to my advantage is while edgeguarding. Although there have been a few times when my friend missed a sh and hit the top one. idk, i just need to use it more, but the stupid platform levels ruin me on double missile. rar, i don't know what my question was.

[Jasona]

if you're talking about dual missle jumping, then I can give you an idea of its practical uses. Peaches, links, and ylinks love to jump before throwing their garbage. The dual missle jump can either punish them for it (stops turnips while continueing on to the peach) or protect you from their toys (neutralizes links bombs). I was using this stuff at the newchallenger tournament last weekend, so they're not just educated guesses... they're facts.

[grayfox]

Originally posted by HugS
Grayfox is wrong one one thing, If missles were as fast as falco's lasers we'd have a banned character people. A strong attack like that moving that fast would rape, doesnt matter how low it is.

True, If missiles came at the same speed as Falco lasers they would be broken to hell but come on that will never ever be done. This is all playing with something that can't be done. SHFFMC missiles will be much easier to dodge than Falcos lasers and they wont be fast as Samus isn't a fast character. Logic.

EDIT: For the double missile uses, it's good because you are covering the air and the ground. Most people get round missiles by jumping over them and following it up with an air attack but that will be stopped by the second missile in the air. I don't think it is the be all end all of Samus though. Certainly useful but not an ultimate defence.

On a side note i have just read some of my last posts and sorry if they come off as arogant, that wasn't intended :D

[UndrDog]

sorry, ignore this post.

[MLRS]

Every Samus trick has its uses, but every Samus trick also has its limits. There is no single trick that will make you a good player, nor any number of tricks. If you do not use a particular trick it does not make you bad, if you use a particular trick it does not make you good. Everyone shutup with your arguments for the uses or uselessness of tricks. Whether or not you use any given trick is your own choice.

[grayfox]

Originally posted by MLRS
Every Samus trick has its uses, but every Samus trick also has its limits. There is no single trick that will make you a good player, nor any number of tricks. If you do not use a particular trick it does not make you bad, if you use a particular trick it does not make you good. Everyone shutup with your arguments for the uses or uselessness of tricks. Whether or not you use any given trick is your own choice.

I agree, tricks do not make you a good player or lack of them a bad player. But your last line there is a bit pointless as if you don't want to argue a point of usefulness then why are you here?

[Jasona]

I made a short vid of me SHFFMCing, its not as fast as I could go, but I only started yesterday. Its on the hub with the name

jasona (samus) - SHFFMC

[grayfox]

I wasn't expecting anything and i'm still disappointed = P. But really, it's good too see you trying to get new Samus tricks, Jasona, but i don't think this has much potential in a battle.

[UndrDog]

what part of having less lag and firing at twice the normal pace not useful in battle?

[MLRS]

It fires the same speed as just standing there and firing missles.

You're right that it does have a use, but it isn't to straight up spam, and it doesn't seem worth it to me to learn it.

[SuperDoodleMan]

If you do the short hop, you must FF and fire a missile as soon as you can, giving you until the peak of your jump to decide if you want to do the FFMC or some aerial or something else. A full jump has a larger window to execute, and thus less predictability.

SH may be faster, but isn't necessarily better.

[Jasona]

I don't intend to sound like I'm saying you're all wrong, but you didn't mention that I can WD out of the SH or dodge down (or forward or back) and then WD, when I get too high to simply WD. SHFFMC is just a little extra speed, every little bit helps. Its a faster way to chase the missle and to fire low. Eventually I hope to use it to perform quick misfires to trick people into using their reflection abilities. It is also a stepping stone to FFing the dual missle jump.

It is a few more options and not alot of extra speed, just a little. Its not like I trained for hours to do it. I've always FFed my MCs, this was just the next step.