questions about thunders luigi

[footnbaseball]

ok, so i just saw the vid of thunders luigi vs ikkis peach. its a very good vid, thunder plays well, but i have 2 questions:

1. does anyone else think he doesnt grab nearly enough? personally, whenever im in close with luigi im either uptilting or grabbing, usually grabbing. is this bad or is thunder just not a grabbing fan?

2. several times in the video, he positions himself with his back to ikki, then wd's backwards into a ftilt towards ikki. any ideas as to why he has to face backwards for this? he does it several times and if you watch, he specifically orients himself with his back to ikki. i thought that maybe if ikki shields he switches from a turnaround ftilt to a sh bair+nair, but if thats the case couldnt a sh fair+nair work just as well? or maybe im completely wrong? discuss.

[stuntcuum3571]

I can only assume he faces the opposite direction to use Bair. The only real reasons i can think og to use bair instead of Fair is for less knock back(to start a chain or combo) or the option to wavedash out of it, but i dont remember him doing either. Yout guess is as good as mine

[PXTalon2000]

Well, number one.. Peach doesun' like getting grabbed. As you notice, Ikki has good spacing. Thunders seems to discover near the beginning of the match that shieldgrabbing will be a rather difficult method. Ikki also is, fortunately for Peach, not a big fan of dash attack, which would have made Peach good meat for grab combos, shield upsmashes, and shield upB's.
Peach has, like, no lag. Approaching her with a grab is like approaching Fox with one; you pretty much have to get lucky.
Peach's slap will beat Luigi's grab. After one slap she has the opportunity to downsmash, grab, or pull some other trick.
Peach's downsmash will also beat Luigi's grab.
And the most important thing... Ikki spams floats! Ikki seems the type of player who will wait for Luigi to come, and play like some Ganons do, and come on top of you for your whiffs. Same with the utilt; just look at the beginning of the match and you see Thunders whiffing an utilt and eating dair. It's harder than usual to get those approaches on Peaches, and you pretty much have to tailor your approach not only to Peach herself, but to the individual playing her.
Plus, seriously, what do you do with a grab on Peach? If you're lucky you'll get an uair/utilt combo of sorts off a throw, maybe an upsmash. Perhaps as little as bair to downB?
Notice within the first minute that Thunders begins relying on the forward tilt, and Ikki adapts quite quickly.

Luigi's fair can be shieldgrabbed, but when you approach with it you should space it and start retreating immediately anyways, that way should you have occasion to uair, nair, or downB before you hit the ground you may, or you can land at a good distance and do as you will. In any case Thunders doesn't approach with fair at all, and given the way Ikki loves spacing floats, I'd imagine that such an approach would not be in order. (I don't fair much at all vs. Peach either)

Thunders doesn't really play very well in the beginning. He's a little off on timing sometimes, but that's more Ikki's fault than his. You kind of have to hold back a little with Peach because it's hard to tell when she'll start floating. Twice in, like, first two minutes, he pays for not using the nair safely (could have considered downB, dair, uairs as alternative.. could have retreated while using it to make it safer). That's quite alright, though, as the nair is an awkward move to use against Peach as is.

His approach to turnips is pretty good. Get hit by them. Getting hit away by turnips does actually make Peaches followups on Luigi more difficult. He could have used downB to hit into them, or caught them but.. He does challenge them with fireballs, and a lesser Peach might have had more trouble with that.

I think I know exactly why he turns his back. He walks away. Walking away is one of the best ways to space and fake with Luigi. He gains momentum in that direction (like if you fsmash you'll still be going that direction), but can wavedash in and ftilt/grab mixup *soooo* quickly. Walking as Luigi, in general, gives you (or.. uh.. me) a degree of control. I use walkaway to WD ftilt a lot (but not in dittos x.x).

In my opinion Thunders could have benefited a lot from increased use of the downB (though Ikki does not appear to be the type who would fall for it a lot). That move annoys Peach a lot; it makes her fear many actions (like full jump nairs) and encourages her to remain in air to attempt to punish it, though she is often too slow to capitalize, and if it hits she shouldn't be able to hit Luigi back (unlike, say, ftilt). He could have benefited from including more down aerial in his approaches, to better avoid worries about sidesteps and shieldgrabs, and simply to have a faster option. Believe it or not, WDsmash is often safer than WDftilt, because a forward WD will often make ftilt shieldgrabbed or give the enemy time to retaliate during the lag at low %'s. Like.. look about 7-some minutes into the match where a shielded fsmash gets him another fsmash to kill. Also notice that Ikki tends to float at an elevation where upsmash may be appropriate (though it would connect less, it would likely be more profitable). Didn't see a lot of shorthop uair.. didn't see too many opportunities for it either, though.
You might notice that Thunders starts making these suggestions for himself around the end of the match (uses retreating aerials, downB, dair, such), and perhaps for this reason pulls off the comeback (it's not like Ikki was doing all Peach could to counter Luigi either, though), but I think the real key to beating her is just not missing.

Alright, the above analysis has been somewhat, eh.. Based on my (rather extensive) Peach experience.. And based upon my own style, and somewhat recent refinements therein.

[footnbaseball]

i suppose that not only answers the questions i asked, but also every other question. ever.


excellent analysis though, you clearly have an awesome grasp on luigi's game, especially vs. peach.

[PXTalon2000]

Originally posted by footnbaseball
i suppose that not only answers the questions i asked, but also every other question. ever.


excellent analysis though, you clearly have an awesome grasp on luigi's game, especially vs. peach.

Doesn't stop me from losing... >.<
Peach is harder than Marth.

[LITD]

Were can i find the vid of thunder's Luigi?

[maelstrom218]

Practically every single smash vid ever made can be found on the Smash Hub through DC++. If you don't have DC++, there should be a stickied thread in Melee Discussion describing where to download the program, and how to access the hub.

As long as you're there, download vids of Yagi's Luigi too. . .IMO he's just as good as Thunders is, if not better.

[The Cape]

I was thinking that Thunder is WDing facing backwards to have the ability to bair peach over fair, not just for lesser knockback, but also for better range (outrange a sheildgrab). When he was going towards her a tilt possibly seemed a better option so he tried it.

(DLing vid now, havent watched it yet. So this is just a thought).