Getting Doc to murder Swordsman...

[Eljin]

I have my fair shares with my friends Shiek, so much so that I now eat his to death when using my Doc. He always played Marth as a side character ( to his Shiek ) now since his Shiek is nothing to my doc he swithces it up to Marth. Now vs. a Marth isn't Doc supposed to be a bad match up ( now i've heard that Marth is supposed to shred the Kingdom boys apart ) I dont' know to much about that but I know me and my friends Marth go back and forth winning matches (although i usually win one or two more matches whenever we play with Doc vs. Marth). But now I am looking for a way to have my Doc ( pills to AFA's and ff ANA's punch to down smash ) destroy his Marth ( tilt/ F-smash happy ) as quickly as possible.

[Knuckaclo]

ok. so heres a tip. get your position into an obvious conter. so when he does. instead grab. also against swordsmen cape is your best friend. the any combo because it takes swordsman a little while to recover from a good dash attack.

[maelstrom218]

Doc vs. Marth isn't exactly a match-up I'd put in Doc's favor. I'd go as far to say that Marth is a Mario/Doc counter.

Aside from the fact that Marth's disjointed hitbox totally screws over Doc in terms of range, the Pills are essentially useless against him. Pill spam/rushing is completely nullified by Marth's neutral A swipes, and he can easily deal w/Pills if he just advances w/shffl'd AFAs.

The Cape, especially Doc's, is almost useless in a battle situation vs. Marth. It has way too much lag. You're better off w/a shffl'd aerial.

The only way to deal w/Marth is to stay outside or inside his tipper range (assuming your friend is aiming for tippers in the first place). You're going to have to use a hit-and-run tactic, where you alternate between running-like-hell (switching between Pill Spam, or fast ABAs if he starts to gets too close), and smacking that swordsman upside the head--once you get inside his tipper range, that is.

Getting inside Marth's tipper range is a pain. Wavedashing is a must here, since you'll need that ground speed/mobility. You'll also need to spot dodge at the appropriate moments. You'll need to make good use of Doc's u-tilt once you get inside, which is fast enough to deal w/Marth; try using it at the end of a WD. Crouch-cancelling his weaker attacks into a d-smash might also be helpful. And finally, if you happen to get under him, start pulling off those u-tilt/shffl'd AUA combos.

Just be sure to get inside his tipper range, and be prepared to take some hits, there's no other way about it. And learn to properly DI too, or else those AFA combos will kill you pretty early on.

[Knuckaclo]

yes i know. but i know a person that rocks with marth. and i still kick hers. i do use doc m to. the trick is through them off. marth has a lot of counters but can easily get confused. that can easily through them off for a comeback. if u know what i mean.

[lionheart1]

stay outside of the grab range and fair range. pill spam and pill rush until you find a definate opening. dair to fsmash or utilt also works well against marth but if using the utilt some times be weary of marths awesome air abilities

[Eljin]

I'll go further into my situation... when I am fighting him and I am up one stock or we are tied one stock his Marth tends to get reckless ( only advancing for hits ) leaving him open to get hit with pills. Once he is like that thats when I pill spam the most because he almost always gets hit with them. He doesn't seem to care to much for tippers, he just wants to cut meh up but if he gets one he just goes along with it. I hate getting hit by Marth either with a tipper or no because I know my Doc's off the stage game ( meaning while im coming back or edge hanging to bait him ) is horrible. I sometimes get mixed up and end up killing my self. I know that f-smash helps a whole lot especially near the edges, but what can I link to that ( a combo that will definitely lead to an f-smash ) to get rid of him faster?

[lionheart1]

marth at lower %. i believe dthrow to fsmash works well and then there is the option of following it up with a fair or uair. as for your edge guarding bair works quite well and dont be afraid to pill off the edge and then cape back and edge hog or just go for a bair. i suggest not to use fair off the edge when guarding. as for youre recovery use cape once to stabilize yourself and dont use youre double jump unless it is youre only way to get to the edge safe. if you get a hold of the ledge it would probably work in youre benefit to either jump up, if the marth u usually play against fsmashes or to wd up very fast

[Cyphus]

this is taken from my guide...


Marth
Outside of outranging doc, he easily cancels out his pills w/ his big quick attacks. EdgeGuarding Marth's UpB is also insanely difficult. Because Marth is floaty, retreating pills are a good way to set him up, but if the Marth player works his way through easily, you need to get CLOSE as you can instead. Juggle him with Jab to grabs early on into a couple UpAirs, and be alert for sidestep to downsmash, which punish him tremendously.
White Sheet will send him back even if it just touches the tip of his sword, but you should use it seldom, because his hits go Around so much, he'll hit you anyways. Marths biggest problem is not easily getting out of early juggles, since his D.air is too risky, and he has not a sex kick like Doc, so focus on getting under him as much as possible and Do worry about getting that last little hit, because every damage counts, and its not easy for him to punish from above. Easiest KO's on marth are gonna be from F./D.Smash, since his DocPunch is so easily Uptilted away. Marth players, in general, prefer attacking relentlessly, so they can be predictable at times...this always gets them...WD at them into a sidestep..then punish as you like.
You can also defend well with his adjustable F.Tilt, outspeeding many of Marth's attacks and boast great range. TriangleJumping's(jumping forward, then immediately diagonally airdodging into the ground in front of them-to sneak around their attack), usefulness really depends more on the Marth Player, than Marth himself, because his options are plenty(counter,shieldgrab,dasdance,attack,ect) when being assaulted. Doc's bad recovery + Marth's edgeguard isn't my favorite subject, but its possible to the UpB perfectly into the edgetip.
If Marth dashdances he wants to psyche you out for an attack or grab. WD backwards into a SH pill to play it safe. If you fight Marth right, you'll see the pill is mightier than the sword............well maybe not, but it sounded cool.

[Knuckaclo]

also againts swords man use long range attacks to your advantage.

[Charoo]

I hate Marth. His ragne is jsut too good, and his move destroy moi pills!

All I know is try to trick him into doing move. Don't be in the tipper range, and learn hwo to wavedash in for a grab. lso the a then downsmash work wodner on him if you can land it.

When they are coming back try to stall. Usaulyl if you jump out and try to him them with soemthing their forward+a will outrange urs so jump out, wait a while for them to react then kick them. Work wonder to peopel who are use to quick reflexes.

[Knuckaclo]

i find marth pretty easy to beat. i just use a guard just before he attack and counter. i also use cape alot. and put myself in a good marth-counter (im so good i can counter u so easily) position and grab.

[soberfox]

Explain this "conter position" that leads to grabbing so easily please...

[Knuckaclo]

well not really hard not really easy. just get into a position to an obvious attack. u know run dash. smash a. stuff like that. as he thinks you are goin to do it. grab him as soon as he counters. wait for the counter and that your sure. that way u dont mess up and he starts a combo at u. his recovery time with that is slow. so it is easy to get a grab to start a combo or anything.

[VilNess]

Well IMO it seems when you start approaching Marth with WD (which is usually one of the best alternatives) it ends up being a rock/paper/scissor thing.

Doc(WD+jab->something)<Marth uses quick attack(like sword dance or neutral A)
Doc(WD+jab->something)>Marth Fsmash(?) sidestep, and shield possibly, grab(? depends how close are you to marth)
Doc (WD+shield to shieldgrab or out of shield aerial)>Marth attack
Doc (WD+shield to shieldgrab or out of shield aerial)<Marth grab

Doc(WD+sidestep to anything)>Anything Marth has except patience (or Sword dance possibly)

It´s definetly more complex than this but you get the picture why it isn´t so easy to get in Marths range always... as for Marth likely it is not so easy to keep Doc away!

Marth can still dashdance but then the Pillspamming opportunity arises.

And Doc can still WD to upangle f-tilt, which suprisingly either outspeeds marth (Fsmash) or equals him in range!

[Eljin]

I got to try those Vileness and Knuckaclo (dont know if its spelled right) and Charoo, strom218 lionheart and masterx. Now since I am in college, the only time i can play him is when I come home for the weekends. Once I get there and try out those tactics I will report what works best and hopefully I will have some usefull tactics of my own to share.

[Blind]

You say your friend gets tilt and smash happy just to "cut you up" as it were; if you see it coming, just side step. Anything from here works... grab, down throw to u-air, b-air, or up smash depending on percent. Or simply d-smash him if he's near the edge.

B-air will be one of your good friends in this match up, as it's got the best range of your aerials (barring f-air, and it's lag time is punished heavily by Marth's sword) and it can juggle well at middle percents, shffl'd.

Pill spamming doesn't work so hot because neutral clashes and he's suddenly able to move again.

Early on in the match, CC'ing to d-smash will rack up early damage and slide him out of range of further attacks.

Forward air is... moderately useful. It's great for knock-out, but if it fails he's flying high and can mix up on return, sword dancing over your head with a wall of priority and if he's above the stage, counter. Or he can fast fall 'till he reaches the edge and ledge hop with neutral air, which will be dangerous. Just avoid this situation unless you know f-air will k.o. WD backwards out of range is the best set-up for this move, but you MUST be careful because only Marth's smashes have the kind of lag that this move can punish.

Caping his recovery doesn't work so well unless he misses the sweet-spot and you somehow manage to hit him without being tipped by his blade.

It's not easy, ultimately your best friend will be forcing him to whiff his attacks using sidesteps and air dodges. His grab range is dangerous (as for any character) so don't be obvious in your offensive and get shield grabbed. Psyche him out and keep your spacing, once you close and get your combo started you'll have it much easier.

[TheKoopaBros.]

I've got a similar position and this might apply to you too.

My opponent uses Marth as well and with Marth's long range its hard to get close.

What I do is try to get Marth to counter,then wait until just after it ends and pull in a smash or B move.(side stepping and rolling are necessary to get in close with marth)

I also found marth is a lot easier to hit in the air.So if you can get a clean shot in there,that'll also work.

[Blind]

Hmm... besides the grab range I'm inclined to say Dpc has it easier on the ground against Marth. Maybe it's just the folks I've played against, but the neutral air and forward air do NOT let you get close. You have to be beneath or behind Marth in the air if he's got a decent air game to win an aerial battle against him. He's simply got the range and the priority with f and n-air. b-air can outrange his b-air, however... but his f-air is faster and I believe it's range is larger, so hitting him with b-air from in front of him is tricky. It's not to say you don't have a good air game and can't do well in the air... but you have to get him in range. Don't clash with him in air when you're both ready for it, because you will probably lose. From the ground you can throw, start up airs and back airs and n-airs and juggle him well, but he will punish you if you try that when he's not stunned.

And personally, I don't find it useful to "get the Marth to counter"... if he's got the time to see you coming chances are he'll start a string of f-airs and it's just painful to watch that.

[Dante Lazarus]

even though i'd probly also state that marth is a doc counter, i'd also go as far as to say that my doc is MY best marth counter. im not too sure how it works, it just does. but here's how most of it happens.
you ready for this.... spam bair. thats it, just spam bair. that is by far my number one killing move in the whole game with any character against any other character.
the reason it works so well is because his bair sends people in a downward angled path. marth's dolphin doesnt have much of a horizontal recovery, so therefore all you have to worry about is getting into the position where you can use it over and over and over and over. and i'd tell you that pill's would be a good answer, but i'd be wrong because 1. marth can neutral+a it with no delay, and 2. its kinda hard to toss a pill forward and then be facing backwards by the time it gets to them, so thats out. i'd just say your best option is to grab and throw toward the nearest edge and roll or WD back to the edge and get ready to spam that bair. because if you can lay a solid one while off the edge, its all over for marth. 1 life down, 4 to go... good luck with the rest of them.

peace
Dante Lazarus

[Eljin]

A quick question. Was that talk about the taunt to the pill true? I don't have the game here to test it but could someone test it to see if it does work?

Back to the matter at hand. I need to get back to Philly and play my friend. As a matter of fact I need to play aho again. he's the closest Marth player I know of. Bair does work, but what if the Marth just tilted you away everytime. I know you have to setup to it but what setups would work to properly execute the bair.

Recovery... Lets say that I did DI properly and could make it back to the stage. Should I sweet spot the ledge with the uppercut or should I pill the edge until closer and cape to airdodge to the ledge.

[Dante Lazarus]

dr mario is the king of CC'ing and L-C'ing, so however you feel free to get in close to a marth to be able to use bair is up to you, just keep in mind that his sidestep is key to getting close... i know that i cant really show you how i would do it, but i can tell you that my dr is the best dodger ive seen out of anybody that i play with, and i say that without any cockyness, because i know that it's true. just make sure you use his sidestep everytime you feel threatened... but if you dont want to have to rely on dodging to get in close, then just use your towel (cape) if possible. towel -> d smash is one hell of a short, simplistic combo that clears out the room.
as for the recovery thing... it all depends on how high you are when returning... if youre coming from the bottom or straight across then all you really have is a towel or two and then your up+b, but if youre coming from up top, then 'yes' always throw a pill no matter what, sometimes if it doesnt hit them, it will at least distract them and thats all you need to get back on, after that is up to you... towel, air-dodge, up+b,... its all up to you

peace
Dante Lazarus

[Eljin]

Thank you although I know many more questions will arise, I am just gonna soak it all up for now. I have been watching some videos of CJ and his and S-Royals Doc and I can say that I have been looking at their styles and taking things and overlaping them with my own.