Who Can't Bowser Handle..? THE REAL LIST.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

alright who are the few characters that Bowser just simply can't handle and why....? all i can think of is Sheik and Jiggly, what other chars are u simply not going to beat if the user of these chars is skilled?

[CAOTIC]

Sheik and Captain Falcon (for their horrible abuse of fair). Falcon is worse in my opinion, because he is ridiculously fast and sometimes chains combos which doesnt give Bowser a chance to react. Ie, a decent Falcon will attempt a dash-grab, up-throw, uair, then the killer blow, fair, which usually sends you directly horizontal with large knockback.

Jigglypuff. The freaking wall of pain will crush Bowser's control of the game. Whenever I verse a Jiggly, the match will span a long period, as I can never dominate. Fortress is nowhere near as effective against Jiggly because of her aerial game, and her floatyness. The pound pisses me off too; its not easy to get over.

Samus. Even if you attempt to dodge, Bowser's fatness may consume most projectiles. A good Bowser can avoid this problem, but Samus' projectile versatility gets the better of him.

These are the chars I have difficulty with.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

yes Bowser's fatness sucks indeed, lets hear from some more experianced bowsers.

[Arash]

shiek, falcon, jiggly, samus for the reasons listed above

young link, when skilled enough, will dance around bowser sprinkling him with projectiles like the fairy he is.... projectiles come out so fast and so frequently that bowser cannot dodge them all, and the projectiles combo so easily into the sword....
(link is similar but slower, so it's not so bad)

falco-- SHL prevents bowser from moving, at which point falco hops over, kicks you and spikes you at 40% :*(

peach may be light, but is impossible to edgeguard, and turnips are too good of a projectile against bowser. also, bowser can't shield grab a peach who masters float cancelling.

if i forgot any other counters, i'll post later

[HoChiMinhTrail]

i agree with all except peach, u can ussually just catch her turnips and throw them back and advance, and fortress instead of shield grab her, i know ur a real good bowser and stuff,im not sayin your wrong, but that is just my take on peach.

[MetaKnight0]

Peach doesn't care at all whether you grab the turnip or not. It's really just limiting your options. Plus, Bowser isn't that great with items.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

knight the point is that turnips are easy to grab and throw back, allowing u to advance.

[Moocow007]

Originally posted by HoChiMinhTrail
knight the point is that turnips are easy to grab and throw back, allowing u to advance.

Bowser has a slow wind up time, and catching the turnip limits his options to attack. In the time bowser is throwing/getting rid of the turnip, Peach will have a follow up planned to punish Bowser

[HoChiMinhTrail]

u will see peaches plans when she has the turnip, ur not gonna throw it if shes charging, but she also knows that u have it and it ussually leads her to stay back.

[MetaKnight0]

If the Bowser does catch it, guess what? Peach pulls another and throws it at Bowser. On and on, and Bowser can't catch two turnips, and his wind-up time is going to screw him unless he air drops it, which puts him in a bad stot because now he's in the air where Peach can hit him out of it with her air attacks.

Summary: Catching the turnips is bad for Bowser.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

alright ur beliefs and mine part here, it is useless to argue. So the final list comes to:
Sheik
Falcon
Jiggly
Samus


peach(disputed)


others feel free to post any other chars u feel should be added.

[GrabfestBowser]

I haven't seen this thread until now... here's my thoughts.


Never pick up items with Bowser with hopes of throwing... in my experience against Peaches who I play a lot, I catch it, and by the time I wind up I'm getting hit with another one or she's already grabbed me. Catch them to make her wary you have one, and I try to drop it while I'm jumping over her, or I just throw it away altogether.

Bowser's hardest matchups.

Jiggly - already explained

Falcon - WAY too fast. Probably harder than Jiggly.

Sheik - only because of chain grab... otherwise it's pretty even I think, maybe slight edge to sheik. I think overall Bowser's Fair is better...

Fox - Best character in the game, but overall not that bad to fight. Easy to edgeguard.

Falco - SHL screws you over but easier than fox to edgeguard. His combos knock off like sixty to seventy on you though. He sucks.

Ganon - Outreaches you with his fair, and hits way harder. But definitely beatable.

Ness - A bowser counter, he just sucks with his Nair. I hate him. If there was one to describe Ness, it's "Fcukhead."

Marth - Hard to get inside, his Nair is better than your Fair. He's gay. And he's fast too.

Link - Only Link I've ever lost to is my bro's and I've played some good ones. He destroys me though, it's always at least a two stock, but he DOES know me inside and out.

I think Ylink is maybe the worst character in the game... he DOES NOT counter Bowser. Neither does Peach. Not at all. Peach is a VERY even fight if you ask me. You just have to do fade away Fairs to edgeguard her, and remember you can do two FULL jumps off the ledge and outward and still make the ledge with your UpB in the reverse direction. Force her to get out of the way with the umbrella when she's far away. Your Fair is your best weapon against her for sure. I'd say avoid the downsmash and then the one that follows that and then the one that follows that, but it would be redundant. I hope you people appreciate the wit to that last sentence.

I've never lost to a samus in a tournament besides Wes' but he did two stock me pretty easily. I don't really know if he counters Bowser though like I think Falcon, Jiggs, and Ness do. They are definite counters. When I define counter I think of a matchup where I SHOULD NOT win going into it. I think I can beat everyone who uses the other characters... but not a Falcon, Jiggly, or Ness.

I still say that Bowser's BEST move is his grab into downthrow... that sets you up for sure.

Another thing... a good jigglypuff counter stage I think is rainbow cruise. She'll be afraid to rest most of the match so you can actually use the fortress... I know I refuse to use it against jigglies in any kind of stationary level because if I don't hit her hard with it I am rested.

Another thing is against people who jump cancels attacks like ganon and mario and jiggly and zelda and anyone else who wall of pains, Lcancel the fair into an UpTilt. Very good stuff there.

Corner Young Link and he is dead. I don't care what anyone else says there is NO excuse to losing to him unless you are in a level with lots of platforms and lots of space for him to run around in. And you can't flame cancel. That pins him GOOD.

I think Bowsers top levels for counter stages are

Mushroom Kingdom II... you can fall from the right and left upper parts to the middle part by falling onto the ledge, and then when you get up with A you pretty much go across the whole thing. THAT is very sexy.

Fourside. Same thing, only better. You can do that fall off, jump into Klaw on almost any ledge here too, or flame cancel off that, or wavedash of that, or just get up with A. I NEVER get up with X off the ledge.

DK's Kongo Jungle. The one with the DK music. I LOVE this level. That rock is Bowser's Rock. Plus a Fair kills people early here and all the platforms aren't too high so you can feel free to do his UpAir a lot. And you CAN jump from the rock to the first level above the main one on the right in TWO FULL JUMPS. That is huge. Otherwise you get pinned on that rock easily.

Jungle Japes. High walled, yes, but you survive longer there too. You can fortress off of either side platform onto the main platform and that is HUGE. It's the fastest getaway possible and NOBODY can catch you because you will have recovered. I remember playing a peach here after he claimed it was peach's level and four stocked him... and he was a rather respectable peach too...

Yoshi's Story and The Fountain of Dreams. These are your Fox/Falco counter levels. Small and they have nowhere to go. Neither do you though, but it works out. Fair them to edgeguard them.

I like FD a lot, but it doesn't give any advantage to Bowser except is ledges are very easy to grab.

Mute City - Worst Level Ever. An instant loss - almost - to any peach or jiggs player.

And I'm spent. More later maybe.

Luke

Zarelid I hope you appreciate my Young Link info. hahahahahahah. That little midget is POOR!

[EdreesesPieces]

Young Link is not poor. Young Link is only very poor against the top tier, but against everyone else, he can do a very good job, you just have to know how to combo his boomerang, and bombs with the sword and vice versa. Against Bowser, it's very easy for Ylink to pull off his run away and use nothing but projectiles game.

[Zarelid]

honestly I do VERY well vs Marth with bowser all, and I mean all of my other characters suck against Marth, but my Bowser is insanely good agaisnt em.

Jiggs counter bowser in ALL ways possiable

Falcons, eh? I dunno I find forward B chain throws are easy on this guy, and out prioitizing him is the way to go. lotsa n-airs

I don't have trouble vs Sheiks lol

I have trouble vs YLinks though but Lukes info can help me out and i'll try it.

[Hoefler]

Sounds like you're playing the wrong people, Zarelid... :p

[UndrDog]

I think his worse is Samus hands down. all a Samus needs to do is Dual Missle, ( two missles in one jump), and the big guy cant advance. once missle hits and his best chance of regaining the lead is to die and to approach while he is invincable. which is always a bad idea. I've been testing this out myself and my best idea was to fortress through one and advance with it, fortress cancel and repeat. but not even sweetspotting it works. a good Samus murders Bowser with no remorse.

[GrabfestBowser]

You make it seem like Bowser is completely inept against Samus. That's not the case. She has the advantage, but she's not a counter.

Luke

[CAOTIC]

I'm not quite sure why Ness' nair is so potent. I do verse alot of Ness players, but they don't abuse the nair - only the fair and bair because of power and range.

I see Ness as beatable unless you can elaborate on why he's such a hack.

[GrabfestBowser]

Yes typo on my part... the Fair is the move that destroys Bowser for Ness. It just absorbs all his moves.

Luke

[Zarelid]

cept for flame ROOOOOOOOOOOAR

[HoChiMinhTrail]

heh exactly i ussually end up spamming the **** flame against ness players and go for stagger forward smashes heh.
I fail a lot in this matchup ==;

[Gojira]

Dr.Mario. I just have trouble fighting him....any pointers?

[GrabfestBowser]

Lcancel into up tilt because good Docs usually jump cancel after a block...

Take your time advancing... it takes me at least a minute to get inside a good doc player who spams pills.

Luke

[Z Dartz Z]

Almost everyone gives him trouble but, the worse would have to be ganon.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Ganon to tell u the truth isn't that bad of a matchup, id rather play ganon then some other chars like sheik, puff, or pika.

[PXTalon2000]

Luke, I played Arash's Bowser with Young Link (Arash > PXT), just as an experiment because I didn't think Bowser stood a chance. Honestly, my Young Link sucks (though he's not one of my worst characters); I just have somewhat of an understanding of Bowser.
If memory serves correctly I three stocked him in a four stock match without much effort. If I didn't actually three stock him, I could have, and that is simply because Bowser utterly blows against Young Link.

Pikachu isn't bad because you can get through jolt spam with patience and precision; after that basically you only have to worry about upsmash. Young Link is horrid (certainly worse than Samus); the projectiles are too much. They do more damage and combo more potently than Link's (it's even harder to get around the bombs). Young Link's nair is more powerful than Link's and just as obstructive; Young Link's dair kills better than Link's does; Young Link is faster, easily giving him time to take out a bomb while Bowser is dealing with one before it.

Hmm... I dunno which is worse.. Falcon or Jiggs.
It's usually more fun to watch Falcon tear you apart, though.. x.x

[Gojira]

Yes Y.Links weapons can be annoying. Yet Y.Link lacks a solid up smash attack. Allowing a bowser to push through his arsenal and land the upside down fortress, L-Cancle, then forward tilt. From there Y.Link will remain on age since he is K.O'd at fairly low percentages.

[HoChiMinhTrail]

well that is if the ylink doesnt simply shieldgrab u when u try to land ur attack.

[omegablackmage]

my vote would go to samus, ive never been pwned more than when i fight a samus, although i don't use my bowser all that much. Samus has a good bit of range on bowser, close and far.

[Gojira]

Samus is weird try koopa clawing samus the do the forward throw. Samus will flie up a great distance. I find it a great set up.

[Gojira]

The dual missle is actually resonably easy to pass through. The first missle fired(will be done while in the air) is the homing one with little knock back.. Jump into that missle(dodgeing the fast one) then do you second jump to move forward some more. *note this homing missle will send you further up in the air*
sheild the second you land to avoid a smash attack or another missle. I raley fight samus's but when i do this prooves usefull. I find that mixing sheilds in with dodge after lnding may work(dodge toward samus) sheilding more then dodgeing will mind trick the samus user.

[GrabfestBowser]

I like to just block them myself. Then run a little, hit down on the analog to stop, then block the next one.

Luke

[Zarelid]

Originally posted by PXTalon2000

If memory serves correctly I three stocked him in a four stock match without much effort. If I didn't actually three stock him, I could have, and that is simply because Bowser utterly blows against Young Link.



why do you gotta say how many stocks you beat him by? thats stuff pisses me off and shows the noobs from the pros(not saying you suck). but really, I mean it's like me bragging on how I took down Ken to 1 stock last hit.


if Luke says Bowser owns YLink I believe him haah, that guy literally has the best bowser in the WORLD, I've never played him yet either and I know it. just in the vids I've seen he's just to insane to NOT be called the best.

[CAOTIC]

I wouldn't go as far out to say Luke's Bowser is the best in the world; the realm of Japanese Bowser players has been largely unchecked.

I'll verse CJ's Bowser tomorrow and get a recording happening - supposedly has an good Bowser.

In line with the topic, G&W hasn't been mentioned as a tough opponent. Should be given some consideration, not as a counter, but as a difficult character to overcome, esp. with the bacon/sausage spammage. It's not the easiest thing to jump over, and it outranges Bowser's flame. Fortressing directly into G&W isn't as reliable as I'd like it to be; decent G&W's can f-B or f-smash quickly once you've ploughed through some of the sausages with a decent sucess rate. Attrition alone I believe isn't enough for Bowser to make this an even affair, as a defensive styled G&W (basically the ones I verse) know all too well the few options Bowser has when its sausage spamming time (basically all the time). They will try to keep Bowser at some distance whenever they can, which also extends the matchtime, denying Bowser control of the match.

I don't verse many great G&W's (mainly because there aren't many at all), but hopefully he's a character that hasn't been ill-regarded.

[GrabfestBowser]

Get two matches if you can, CJs Bowser vs your best character or someone else's best character who is good, and a DITTO.

Luke

[Zarelid]

Originally posted by CAOTIC
I wouldn't go as far out to say Luke's Bowser is the best in the world;


I would, he's literally INSANE with bowser.

[PXTalon2000]

Originally posted by Zarelid
why do you gotta say how many stocks you beat him by?

A statistic, Zarelid. It's a valuable statistic.
I am not good at this game; Arash is. Even if his Bowser isn't as good as Luke's, you would have to guess the gap isn't that great, since Arash was known for a while as having probably the best Bowser out there. I'm a nobody who did an experiment.
I hypothesized that I wouldn't need to try very hard to beat Bowser with Young Link, so I used bombs, neutral aerial, utilt, uair, down aerial to kill, and no other moves besides upB to recover (no boomerang or arrow), and I ended up being right.
The fact that I could accomplish a three-stock victory against someone so obviously better than I am suggests that the matchup is lopsided just as I stated it is. Either that, or Arash didn't know what he was doing. I'd much sooner conclude the former.

It's not bragging; I'm bringing up numbers to make a point, and there's no reason you should have a problem with that (unless you just really wanna' be irritated about something).

EDIT: Gojira. The dual missile jump to which Undr was referring is something that is not quite common among Samus players yet (though I know quite a few who use it). There are no homing missiles involved, and spamming those powerful missiles at two missiles a jump is actually considerably difficult to overcome.

[GrabfestBowser]

Yeah I thought it was two strong missiles myself... it takes a while to get at a samus player with two strong missiles... it's annoying.

And same thing with me, since my first noob tourney at mlg chicago I've learned to L Cancel and since then I haven't really had much trouble with Y Links or Link for that matter (besides my bro who crushes me with Link)... I'm by no means saying that Bowser is a counter, I just think that with patience and good timing it's an even match because one slap and Y link goes flying.

Luke

[Arash]

pxtalon... as flattered as i am, i gotta say you're not quite a nobody. you're pretty good, and tbh i didn't expect any ylink before that to rape me.

but as i said before, 10 ylink hits to one bowser hit might be even, but bowser has more difficulty landing that hit than ylink's 10, and that's because bowser isn't fit for chasing the little brat. it would have been even worse if pxtalon had used boomerang and the occasional arrow, because then bowser is at his mercy. i'm not saying it's instant loss, but bowser has an uphill battle to fight (as per usual)

[CAOTIC]

OK. I've had some serious money matches with CJ's Bowser in a ditto, and he is without a single doubt in my mind, superior to Luke's Bowser (if most of Luke's vids are anything to go by). CJ is terribly fast with Bowser (seemingly twice as fast as any other Bowser vid out there), has an immaculate edgeguarding game and his attack pressure is extreme.

The raw footage I have is currently uncompressed, and I will have a proper shot at him in the @M tournament this Monday, now knowing what to expect, and with a proper video recording to be done.

Hopefully in due course, the vids will be up for your scrutinizing.