Who does Bowser counter?

[NJzFinest]

after some what "mastering" the infinite shine....i got bored. so, i starting using some new chars like bowser. i just want to kno exactly who he can counter! (plz donate gil)

[GrabfestBowser]

From what I'm aware of he counters nobody but himself... if there is such a thing. He is very good against most characters though... like he stands a chance against almost everyone except for like 5 or 6 guys...

Luke

[MagnuM]

What about a defensive Falco that just lazer spams all day?

[Hoefler]

You just can't let the Falco get that far along in their strat. If you immeadiatly begin applying pressure you should be able to get him off the edge, to where you can control the match. Same thing against defensive peaches: You have to play more offensively. Don't let them come to you.

[Z Dartz Z]

Originally posted by GrabfestBowser
From what I'm aware of he counters nobody but himself... if there is such a thing. He is very good against most characters though... like he stands a chance against almost everyone except for like 5 or 6 guys...

Luke

Thats a **** shame

[GrabfestBowser]

I think Bowser beats Kirby really well... but I don't think he's a counter... that would be the closest thing though.

Luke

[Zarelid]

if the Falco just lazers all day you know from the get go they aren't good meaning, they will be easy to attack and beat. cause all they know of is lazering

[GrabfestBowser]

Exactly... the falco that is on top of you in two shots before you get the timing down to jump in between them and then starts comboing you is the falco that you stand no chance against... unless he doesn't fast fall AND Lcancel... allowing your fortress to hit him before he hits you.

Luke

[JesusFreak]

Bowser doesn't even come close to beating a Kirby that knows what he's doing. Just ask Arash how it was to play KKK.:p Of course, Most Kirbies I can see having a somewhat tough time, but the thing is that Kirby has excellent evasion and can punish Bowser pretty easily. The only moves that I've had trouble against are the fortress and flames. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to play Arash at MOAST. =/ But Luke>arash anywayz. :p

[and per se Andy]

Luke could beat kirby kid pretty solidly i think, i beat him once and bowser is way better against kirby.

[GrabfestBowser]

I don't want to be ignorant, that was just my opinion... If Kirby is above Bowser, an uptilt will out prioritize Kirby. The kirby can't play a camped crouch cancel game with flame cancelling otherwise he'd lose WAY too much damage. Bowser definitely controls the pace of this matchup. Kirby can't WOP effectively, and he can't go off the ledge to edgeguard bowser either because his aerial movement isn't as good as Jiggly's AND bowser's fortress speed is much greater than Kirby's aerial speed. The UpB kills him at 80-90 prolly, and a fair when Kirby is coming back from off the ledge will kill him at the same percentage, and since Kirby hovers so much during his five or six jumps he's prone to getting hit with a Fair when he's way out there. Kirby can't chain throw Bowser to my knowledge, so it just puts it at a not so even match where bowser controls the tempo. If kirby doesn't fast fall a down aerial he get's Fortressed, and because of the flame cancel ability you can have really high confidence when Kirby is going to short hop or take to the air towards you. Kirby's fighting ability just doesn't stack up to most of the characters in the game... he has to rely on the crouch cancelling and down tilt too much and the flame cancelling takes care of that.

Just my opinion though... best Kirby I ever fought was Eddies a couple months ago at SMYM and he expected to destroy me but it was the other way around. He thinks that Bowser beats Kirby pretty well too.

Luke

[JesusFreak]

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, you certainly do, and you brought up a point that I retardedly forgot when I was saying what I was saying. Bowser has a very good CC and that would give Kirby problems. At the same time I disagree with the other things you said. I really can't see you landing a fair against KKK when he's recovering, and Kirby has plenty of aerial movement.

As far as the up tilt is concerned, yes it would out prioritize Kirby, but it comes out a lot slower than many of Kirby's aerials. Of course this is all speculation and theory, but unless you come to MLG Houston or similar, then we'll never know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.:p

[Arash]

Bowser doesn't even come close to beating a Kirby that knows what he's doing. Just ask Arash how it was to play KKK. Of course, Most Kirbies I can see having a somewhat tough time, but the thing is that Kirby has excellent evasion and can punish Bowser pretty easily. The only moves that I've had trouble against are the fortress and flames. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to play Arash at MOAST. But Luke>arash anywayz.

KKK (which sucks since he's black) only beat me that one time because he ate me and jumped off while my guard was down... that's not to say he's not good though, he's the only kirby that even came close to beating the bowser, let alone pull off a victory. and with kirby, there's only so much evading you can do before you eat a fair or bair, which then screws you since you're off the edge

but stealing the flames is always good:)

[GrabfestBowser]

hahahhah Jesus I'd love to go to that, but I don't see it happening in the future... I'm makin a road trip to florida in a couple weeks though... so WHO KNOWS? hahahahahah
I'll be in Tampa Bay though... wink wink, any smashers there? I need to know which bars to go to, not to smash...

And I wasn't being really sarcastic at the end of my last post when I wrote my opinion... it kinda seems like that's how you took it... when I wanna be sarcastic I am VERY sarcastic.

And yeah the thing that I just wanted to stress is that kirby doesn't have a projectile, so for example...

First all the kirby's I fight don't play the air game that much... most of them are on the ground so that they can crouch cancel. So in this instance during my weird, jump forward and backward approach, I come down and flame cancel for 11 damage. Then I back off a bit, feel him out more... see if he takes to the air, whatever. He goes on the ground again and I flame cancel again. Now he's at 24% or so, and he's too conscious about it happening again. I can pretty much BANK on the fact that he's going to be in the air soon... so I do my absolute BEST to make him...
1. Do an aerial without fast falling so my UpB outprioritizes his Lcancel into DownTilt
2. Miss with an aerial. During this whole time I'm jumping up and down moving forward and backward. Once he misses, I fast fall into Klaw
3. Make him eat a Fair outright. Of course this last one sounds way too easy than it actually is, but this is my exact strategy for fighting someone like Ganon, who doesn't have a projectile. Ganon's Fair crushes Bowser's Fair in range and strength and knockback, so against a Ganon like Eddie's I have convince myself that he is going to be jumping towards me at a certain instant so that my Fair beats his to the punch. This is the exact reason why bowser will never go anywhere in tournaments... because you have to bank on your opponent doing certain moves, and if he doesn't, you get punished bigtime.

So that is the thing though, and the beauty of the flame cancel... as I'm jumping around feeling out my opponent, I am always ready with that B button so that if I do see him on the ground at the same time I'm just about there I will flame cancel.

And another thing... Arash do you flame cancel? I talked to AOB and Eddie and they said that you don't grab or tilt as much as I do... but I didn't ask if you play on a game that is first version. That is a HUGE difference actually, and Decadent One says he'd rather play PAL cuz Bowser is heavier but I'd rather have the mind game factor instead of being heavier.

And lastly, Bowser's grab is still his best move.

Luke

[JesusFreak]

Heh, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I didn't mean to imply that either. And arash I was right next to y'all when you were playing. Yes he did only win by that one move, but he warned you about it and you still fell for it. Also he was kinda just stringing you along the whole match. :p

I wish I could've had the chance to play you tho. I'd like to see how a normal "above average" Kirby would do instead KKK. And he makes that his name because he's black.:chuckle:

[Arash]

unfortunately i cracked my original smash 6 months ago, and whenever i practice i can't fire cancel, so whenever i play on the old version it doesn't hit me until like halfway in "oh yeah, i can fire cancel now.."

grabbing is good

[FalseFalco]

Originally posted by MagnuM
What about a defensive Falco that just lazer spams all day?

LMFAO yeah thats how i beat you!!! heh. good luck with a strategy.

[pronstarpwnzor]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but Luke... How old are the videos you have on DC++?

Are they recent (Within Months), or are they older (Year or more)?

One more question... Is your battle on Yoshi's Island vs. EGY5's Falco a "real" battle. I only ask this because it doesn't seem like he puts up much of a fight. Was this more of a fun match, or did he just have a bad day? (Plus the music owns in that vid)