Doc better?

[NJzFinest]

i hate it when ppl say doc is better than mario. he only has SLIGHTY stronger moves. mario, on the other hand, has the much better recover though. mario is better, period. someone post some good reasons y doc is better or vice-versa

[DYC]

wrong forum. check character specifics for this kind of thing.

[Thomas Tipman]

mario and doc are real close but it slightly goes to doc. fair differences is what truely sets them apart.

DYC: nice sig, alot better than the slooooooooo.....oooow one you used to have.

[NJzFinest]

nvm. i shouldn't of put this up, i just found out most ppl agree with me. and ya, nice sig DYC, u should have the red falcon(blood hawk) instead though, pink helmet and shoes >_>......
so nobody bother replying about the whole doc and mario thing.

[Powda193]

i would replied sooner... but here i am now.

MARIO IS BETTER!!!!!
marios sex kick is superior. why would u want to HAVE to time your attack for the VERY last second to get the best hit? with mario, u can pull out the sex kick real quick to avoid being juggled and it will be more powerful than Doc's
mario is faster, but its a slight difference
mario has more range! this is the selling point. Doc cant hit nething more than 2 ft from his face. Marios bair is far superior. plus, mario is kinda floaty so its harder to juggle him.

all the doc has goin for him is his fair--yes its better, but thats the ONLY argument he has.

oops, take that back... the pills are better. However, just slightly... imo the fireballs are easier to aim and spam and have almost as much stun power.

so there.

[Granateple]

doc's cape lasts longer, but has shorter reach
upB and downB has more nockback, although downB is still useless
doc's fair is better
uair is, IMO, easier to juggle with
pills are WAY better than fireballs. They have more stun, takes more damage(i think), and has many more uses than the fireballs.
fsmash is more powerfull
downsmash is fantastic

[dark_mike]

Mario has better speed to his atks. doc's atks are stronger however mario i find jumps higher and is the perfect character 2 play as besides link. also dr. mario is very slugesh and does not manover as well.
my tip 2 any 1 playing as either mario or dr. use ur smash a attack. it may be amoung the top 5 4 best smash a attack.
oh and mario is the best when it comes to manovering.

[VilNess]

I also thought Pills have more stun but I was proved wrong becaus it´s actually the loud sound of the pills that makes people thin kthey have more stun...
Or maybe the guy was wrong who told me that.

[Granateple]

You may be on to something, but the pills are WAY better anyways because of its option to really spam, destroy recovery, remove edgeguarders, pillrush, defensive pill and just the good old pill.

[Pey]

Doc's pills definitely stun better than the fireballs. Like Falco's laser, a pill can pretty well stop you in your tracks.

[Flarefox]

I used to think that doc was superior bc of pills, better fair, and stronger smashes/throws. But, mario has a better recovery, sex kick, and more range to his fsmash. Doc's fsmash is strong, but bc of its lack of range, it is not as effective as mario's. The main thing that I think makes mario better, though, are his TILTS. Mario's tilts tend to send off at more upward angles (better for comboing), whereas most of doc's send the opponent in strange outward paths.

[maelstrom218]

Actually, this whole topic on who's better, and the differences between Doc and Mario, have already been covered in depth. . .but it's always fun to talk about it :D

First off, I think that I have to agree w/VilNess--Pills stun the same duration as fireballs do. It's just that the Pills make that impressive impact noise; it's really misleading.

Also, there is virtually no speed difference between Doc and Mario, aside from the obvious AAA combo. In terms of aerials, they basically have the same speed. Mario's aerials do have a slight frame advantage over Doc's (usually 2-3 frames faster), but it's so small as to be almost negligible.

In comparing their aerials, Mario's tend to have more knockback and damage, while Doc's tend to have more stun time. The range between Doc/Mario's aerials varies a bit as well; i.e. Doc's ABA has more range, and Mario's AUA has more range.

Let it also be known, as declared by the Powers That Be, that Pills are infinitely superior than fireballs in every respect. Pills are like missiles, or SHB--you can follow up directly behind the projectile. W/varying trajectories, the Pill can be used as an offensive rush, defensive screen, or general spam. Fireballs can't do half of what Pills can.

The only real differences between Doc and Mario involve the sex kick, # of KO moves, Cape, projectiles, and combo potential. Doc has the superior Pills and KO moves (AFA, d-smash), while Mario has the Cape and better shffl'd AUA and u-tilt.

Personally, I think both are equal. . .Pills and KO moves are great, but so is Mario's Cape and huge combo potential.

[Scav]

Doc is better. He has kill moves. He has exploitable moves. He has deadly combos.

Mario has combos. Not deadly combos... just combos. Mario can't kill. Ever. Doc has better game against the top tiers, his pills come out at a more exploitable angle, his cape is easier to edgeguard with, and once again, he has kill moves.

But Mario can recover for forever *waves a teeny flag*

I'm a bit bitter ;) but yeah, the current thinking is that Doc has a superior game to Mario's, because he has a more exploitable moveset. Mario is a solid character, just not abusable.

-Scav

[ANTX]

Originally posted by dark_mike
Mario has better speed to his atks. doc's atks are stronger however mario i find jumps higher and is the perfect character 2 play as besides link. also dr. mario is very slugesh and does not manover as well.
my tip 2 any 1 playing as either mario or dr. use ur smash a attack. it may be amoung the top 5 4 best smash a attack.
oh and mario is the best when it comes to manovering.

omg yur rite, dude! all hale derk mike!

NOTE: the rest of this post is opinion and i've not played the marios THAT seriously. (the above is just plain fact tho...)

actually, i think that the difference in characters is so minute that it becomes more dependant on the style of the user. if you play defensively then i would choose Doc do to pill poppin, and strong combos. (not as in GOOD combos, but STRONG combos)

i feel that if you like to be a little faster, especially on the offensive end, i would choose mario. his up-tilt to u-air combos can be grEEEEWWWWWsome, but you may be looking for your KO moves more. unless yur brown mario, who tends to hit those up-smashes jjjuuusssttt right...
now it should be said that nethier character should only be fought those ways, but the matter of recovery seems to be kind moot in the american game due to Doc's great ability to live, regardless of recovery or not. (watch CJ get up to 200%+ against sheiks. you'll see)

so who's better? i'd say Doctor mario has a slight advantage for most of the people i know, but getting a better Mario doesn't seem that hard. (look at scav! he's good with mario and he's a nuub. he just spams mario's moves like no tomorrow. uber cheap)

[maelstrom218]

Scav, I would've thought that you of all people would support Mario:( Anyways, I'm not sure what to think when you say that Doc has deadly combos. . .is it b/c he has strong finishers to end those combos? B/c the only real combo I've seen is CJ doing shffl'd AUAs on Marth, and ending w/a f-smash. Other than that, he has no combos that I can think of. . .

IMO, Mario is the real combo guy; it's all about the u-tilt and greater ranged AUA. Anyone who hasn't seen Brown Mario should watch him, he does crazy combo stuff w/u-tilts and continuous shffl'd AUAs that Doc can't even come close to. That combo craziness should at least put him on par w/Doc.

ANTX, CJ's Doc is living at +200% vs. Sheik b/c of proper DI, not b/c of any inherent ability to survive on Doc's part. In any case, both Doc/Mario's recovery is easily edgeguarded; the Cape doesn't give that much advantage.

But it's true that Mario definitely requires more skill and effort than Doc. Doc's AFA, d-smash, and Pills are so easily exploited, its kinda sick. W/Mario, you have to have uber mindgames and get those u-tilt/shffl'd AUA combos down just to make up for the lack of KO moves. But again, I still think both are equal, its just about the differing ease of use between the two.

[lionheart1]

docs ability to combo puts him one step ahead of mario. docs dair is better and can lead into more combos but mario does have an excellent fsmash and dsmash

[The Cape]

Originally posted by lionheart1
docs ability to combo puts him one step ahead of mario. docs dair is better and can lead into more combos but mario does have an excellent fsmash and dsmash

I beg to differ. As I can see Mario has many more combo potentials.

All of Mario's aerials can lead to combos, as well as his jab. exs:

Nair to Dsmash
Fair to utilt to uair
Dair to grab
Bair to bair
Uair to Uair to Uair

Jab to D smash
jab to U tilt to uair


See what I mean. These combos can be used by both, but I believe with Mario's Fair he may have larger combo potential.

[Powda193]

the pills are not that good!!!!! or perhaps i should say that u need to give the fireballs more credit.

the only REAL advantage the pills have is that u can release them at different angles... so u can time 2 pills to hit consecutively--thats cool. other than that, the fireballs stun and are actually BETTER for edgegaurding because u can throw them out farther.

also, mario's fsmash is superior because of the range. true it has a picky sweetspot, but when u cant sweetspot thats when u dsmash. so regardless, within marios range (which is longer than Docs) he is gonna kick the **** out of u if u leave urself open. However, Doc has to be even closer than mario to get his fsmash in. however, im not sure... who outranges on the dsmash?

also, mario's cape is much better. simply because of the recovery. neither of them can recover well, so u should take any boost u can get. mario's cape really helps him get back, the docs doesnt.

overall.... u got the combos, the cape, and the range in marios favor.
doc has the pills, which are just slightly better... but doc is better? i dont think so.

o yea, BOTH fair's are slow and predictable... neither are good.

[Scav]

Mario's fsmash will only ever kill your opponent if he makes a mistake. We joke about it being the "best fsmash in the game," but that's only because it has a very surprising amount of priority. If someone challenges it, they'll lose. But, once they learn to avoid the thing, it's very hard to kill someone with Mario's fsmash.

Doc, on the other hand, has an easier time comboing into fsmash and fair. Against top tiers his dthrow combos at least give him a chance. Yes, Mario can combo into dsmash, and on rare occasion can combo into Fsmash. Otherwise, the only other way to Fsmash with Mario is to wavedash backwards and bait them into it.

As for pills v fireballs... I don't really have a preference either way. Mario's fireballs, for me, tend to be more of a distraction, and a way to limit my opponent's options of approach. Doc's pills are disruption, since the angle that they come out allows Doc to protect himself and combo into them much easier. For edge guarding, Mario's fireballs can occasionally steal a kill, or make a Samus unhappy, and are better (again) at limiting recovery options. So again, Fireballs = distraction, Doc = disruption. My preferred use of Mario's fireballs is during *my* recovery, rather than my opponents... they help a great deal in that regard.

Mario's recovery rocks. I'm not arguing that. He has infinitely better recovery than Doc. But again, the trend is that Mario has good recovery, while Doc's cape is far superior for actually *killing* you're opponent. It's wider, and thus easier to edgeguard with. Also, in items play, Doc can reflect bobombs and like, while Mario can merely detonate right outside of his range.

F-air? Doc's is deadly and allows you to kill. It can kill at low percentages. It can be combod and dthrown into. Mario's is very good for... combos. See the trend here? Mario can combo and distract and disturb the opponent with the fair. Doc can kill.

Mario can recover, and he can juggle. Doc can kill. Which would you rather have?

The dsmash kills at high percentages. The fsmash requires your opponent to make a mistake. The usmash is quite good, but the only times I can pull it off are the occasional usmash out of shield.

Mario is a very cohesive, very enjoyable character. That's why I play him almost exclusively. Unfortunately... he lacks kill moves. Which means I have to work a *lot* harder for my kills than a doc player.

Don't get me wrong, I love the plumber ;) I'm just a bit jaded because I can't kill top tiers. Ruar.

-Scav

[Eljin]

what it comes down to is overall preference, and not to challenge you but Doc has to work for kills also it's just easier to make the opponent dissapear at higher percents. As it looks to me is they balance out ( in my opnion ) Doc's d-smash better than Mario's, Mario's u-smash better than Doc's. Doc's f-smash better than Mario's (power wise) Mario's f-smash better in terms of priority and range. They both can combo just at different (unusual) times. The only way I can see Mario being higher than Doc on the tiers is maybe recovery and better combo ability ( like to the point of making your kill alot easier once their damage is high enough ). It's who your drawn to, because I play Doc and I can't play Mario worth a lick.

[TheRedMarth]

Me and my roommate are constantly playing Doc and Mario battles. He normally wins because he practices far more with Doc than I do with Mario as I perfer to stick to Marth or Bowse. But I will say that mario's aerial manuverabilty (While a detrement when fingthing your Sheiks of CF's) is appealing.
Besides, regardless of all it's laggy badness. I love Mario's Fair. It's far from his most effective edge guard, but there's really no matching the satisfaction of getting it off on an aerial oppent and drilling them into the ground.
I'm stupid, but I love that god **** move when I get it off. :)

[VilNess]

Mario´s Fsmash Can be as deadly as Docs, since the stun on the move is excellent and can combo in to smashes or aerials.
It´s like Mario Fair>Doc Fair at lower %
and Doc Fair>Mario fair at higher since it´s hard to followup when your opponent is on high %.

This is off course character dependant.
When you are facing Peach Docs Fair is usually the better one to have.

[Knuckaclo]

there actually both very good. me personally is doc. he may be slower but stronger(like most characters) so even though his combo might have a little less hits it should do about the same damage or more. Mario yes can set up combos and has great recovery but can also be knocked further and higher in which sets him back. Also in which D. mario can fall faster which sends him back to. They both have a pretty good range and yes the fireball and pills do the same stun. Its like a fox falco battle. Fox dont stop but fast and weak. Falco does but slow and strong. As so does Mario and D. Mario. It just depends on your personal preferences through there stats. I know that D. Mario has a 5 usage but not sure about Mario though. Basicly saying they both have there ups and downs it your vote.

[Cyphus]

Originally posted by Scavenger382

Doc, on the other hand, has an easier time comboing into fsmash and fair. Against top tiers his dthrow combos at least give him a chance. Yes, Mario can combo into dsmash, and on rare occasion can combo into Fsmash. Otherwise, the only other way to Fsmash with Mario is to wavedash backwards and bait them into it.



F-air? Doc's is deadly and allows you to kill. It can kill at low percentages. It can be combod and dthrown into. Mario's is very good for... combos. See the trend here? Mario can combo and distract and disturb the opponent with the fair. Doc can kill.

Mario can recover, and he can juggle. Doc can kill. Which would you rather have?


Mario is a very cohesive, very enjoyable character. That's why I play him almost exclusively. Unfortunately... he lacks kill moves. Which means I have to work a *lot* harder for my kills than a doc player.

Don't get me wrong, I love the plumber ;) I'm just a bit jaded because I can't kill top tiers. Ruar.

-Scav




WORD
i <3 scav.
and if u think the fireballs are even equal...u have issues.
the stun has nothign to do w/ the comoboability.
its the speed....the pills simply are followup-able(lol) unlike the fireballs...do more damage, and can be used to buy more time for an opening.

doc has way better KO opportnities than Mario. PERIOD. Mario combos a little better, thats i ur going to get ot of me. but seriously....i combo that crap outta people using docs Shuffled AUA repeatedly then into a F.Smash. Its really not that hard.
And doc's sex kick has better initial range...actually making it a more reliable combo breaker than marios(not stronger..just safer)..and mario's sex kick's stregnth is nothing to brag about...ur not going to get any medium % KOs from it. Doc's actually can be used to dash-SH through an oponents projectile, then right into them!(when it actually has gained substancial strength) and its lower trajectory angle really hurts fast fallers by a ledge...(or even jump off and sex-edgeguard w/ it, meeting them in air) its really awesome, really. Outside of breaking combos(which doc's serves its purpose just as well) mario need only rely on it as a combo finisher(whereas doc has the doubly strength AFA)....and stronger D.Smash....and combo friendlier Jab.

"BUT mario's recovery is 1337!" PLEASE....they BOTH still suck....point unvalid.

[Scav]

Originally posted by VilNess
Mario´s Fsmash Can be as deadly as Docs, since the stun on the move is excellent and can combo in to smashes or aerials.
It´s like Mario Fair>Doc Fair at lower %
and Doc Fair>Mario fair at higher since it´s hard to followup when your opponent is on high %.

This is off course character dependant.
When you are facing Peach Docs Fair is usually the better one to have.

Mario's fsmash is incredible. I'm not contesting the fact. It's really good. It has good range, very deceptive priority, and lends itself well to wd-back-fsmash (a basic trick, but a good one with Mario.) My point remains that, because of its speed and hitbox, you only connect with it when your opponent makes a mistake. You catch them in the wd-back-fsmash mindgame, or they make the mistake of thinking they can challenge it from the air. On rare occasions you can combo into it... if your opponent messes up his DI. Which happens, but only if your mindgame forces him to do it (Oh, he uair'd or utilted, I'm gonna DI this way... *bam*)

Doc's lack of range in the fsmash is definitely a disadvantage, but it remains that he can lead into it easier. Not to mention his sweetspot is easier to lead into.

Comparing the two is like comparing Marth and Roy's fsmash. Yes, thank you, Roy's is technically stronger. But when you factor in range, speed, the tip's strength, and comboability, is there any doubt which is better?

With Mario, you have very few guaranteed kills. You have to mindgame most of them. A proper cape, an unexpected spike, or a lucky fsmash. This is much harder than connecting with Doc's f-air.

So yeah. Mario v Doc is a matter if preference. If you prefer killing your opponent, you choose doc. If you prefer juggling and not killing your opponent, choose Mario.

I choose Mario ^_^ the guy is WAY too much fun for me to leave him. I just need to point that out. I adore Mario. But in our current metagame, he's not as good as Doc. I prefer him, because my "preference" is to have fun. And hey, Brown Mario can tear people up. Maybe there will be a metagame shift and Mario will move up a bit. But now, that's not the case.

-Scav

[Peaches]

They are both about the same, but I find when playing Doc I jst don't do as well.

Are there some exact statistics for both capes?

[Knuckaclo]

like most things end up. its your own prefference

[VilNess]

Ehh stupid me! Off course when I typed Fsmash I meant Fair! :D

[Knuckaclo]

that really helps a lot. makes more sence now. thnx for the clear up